Author Topic: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century  (Read 18514 times)

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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #348 on: January 02, 2012, 01:17:47 AM »
Of course you do.  So do I.  We use our authority to do that.

Funny how it comes back to our authority to declare the document's meaning, eh?

I see it as a good thing.  If the document would have said something specific, such as 'the government officials give you your rights', then we wouldn't be able to form much of an argument about what that means, as we are now, so then I think those officials would have much more control over us...

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #349 on: January 02, 2012, 01:19:55 AM »
Or if it had specifically indicated the creator in question, then we could argue that those of different beliefs have already given up their rights by not following, say, Christ.  That would serve most the current crop of Republican hopefuls quite nicely.

Instead, they left it to us, meaning that we the people are the ones that end up giving ourselves rights.

EDIT:  That's a heavy responsibility, and we can't put that responsibility off to a creator - or the government - and let down our guard.  Case in point:  Patriot Act and the law Obama just signed.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 01:23:12 AM by Azdgari »
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #350 on: January 02, 2012, 01:22:12 AM »
Or if it had specifically indicated the creator in question, then we could argue that those of different beliefs have already given up their rights by not following, say, Christ.  That would serve most the current crop of Republican hopefuls quite nicely.

Instead, they left it to us, meaning that we the people are the ones that end up giving ourselves rights.

Yep, I agree.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #351 on: January 02, 2012, 08:53:32 AM »
You can cherry pick particular issues on either side which seem to contradict the overall premise of a political ideology.  But , when you look at conservatism overall, it's primary focus is smaller government regulation.

...of the market.  Absolutely nothing else.

EDIT:  Except for guns.  Those have to remain free, too.

There are 10 rights laid out in the bill of rights, conservatives regularly vote against 8 of them...hardly cherry picking.
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #352 on: January 02, 2012, 09:50:20 AM »
Has Gill won any arguments, yet?

It's a good thing he has gills.
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #353 on: January 02, 2012, 10:43:12 AM »

 You can cherry pick particular issues on either side which seem to contradict the overall premise of a political ideology.  But , when you look at conservatism overall, it's primary focus is smaller government regulation.

Only in regards to businesses. When it comes to people's personal lives, the current conservative movement in America is ALL ABOUT government regulation. Anyone who pays any attention at all to the current political situation and yet doesn't understand that can only be ignorant. There really is no other excuse. Wanting to teach Creationism as fact, limiting the rights of women and homosexuals, declaring that this is a Christian Nation are all examples of the ways in which the Conservatives (particularly the Tea Party types) support extensive government regulation.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #354 on: January 03, 2012, 06:25:03 AM »
My initial opinion, of trusting a christian more than an atheist in government, was based on the assumption that the atheist was less likely to recognize the concept that people have innate rights, natural, or 'god-given' rights, independent of what the government gives them.

Maybe you need to be specific. 

What rights do you believe are actually given to us by the Christian god?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #355 on: January 03, 2012, 10:36:27 AM »
My initial opinion, of trusting a christian more than an atheist in government, was based on the assumption that the atheist was less likely to recognize the concept that people have innate rights, natural, or 'god-given' rights, independent of what the government gives them.

Maybe you need to be specific. 

What rights do you believe are actually given to us by the Christian god?

IDK the specifics.   But considering many of the founders were Christian,  I'm sure they would likely be aligned with the idea of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, as was initially recognized.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #356 on: January 03, 2012, 10:42:21 AM »
What rights do you believe are actually given to us by the Christian god?

IDK the specifics.   But considering many of the founders were Christian,  I'm sure they would likely be aligned with the idea of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, as was initially recognized.

ROFL.  Those are just about the last rights in the world that Yahweh would say that we have or would want us to have.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #357 on: January 03, 2012, 10:55:25 AM »
My initial opinion, of trusting a christian more than an atheist in government, was based on the assumption that the atheist was less likely to recognize the concept that people have innate rights, natural, or 'god-given' rights, independent of what the government gives them.

Maybe you need to be specific. 

What rights do you believe are actually given to us by the Christian god?

IDK the specifics.   But considering many of the founders were Christian,  I'm sure they would likely be aligned with the idea of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, as was initially recognized.

I'm not interested in what the founders thought.  I'm asking YOU what rights you believe are actually given to us by the Christian god.

You have stated you would prefer a Christian because of the rights they believe their god has granted to man.  So I'm asking you to name them.  You have an opinion as to why you support a Christian over an atheist - I'm wondering if you actually know WHY you do?

Or is this simply another knee-jerk reaction you've not thought through, in the same way as your opinion on market regulation?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #358 on: January 03, 2012, 10:59:02 AM »
My initial opinion, of trusting a christian more than an atheist in government, was based on the assumption that the atheist was less likely to recognize the concept that people have innate rights, natural, or 'god-given' rights, independent of what the government gives them.

Maybe you need to be specific. 

What rights do you believe are actually given to us by the Christian god?

IDK the specifics.   But considering many of the founders were Christian,  I'm sure they would likely be aligned with the idea of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, as was initially recognized.

More like. No life, No liberty, and the pursuit of misery. Every move weighed against the christian self help book. AKA the Bible. All those do's and don'ts with emphasis on the don'ts.
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Offline plethora

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #359 on: January 03, 2012, 11:17:36 AM »
Sorry to come back to this so late in the thread ... only just catching up ...

Those dictators you mentioned were not motivated by a lack of belief in a god. They were motivated by active belief in certain ideologies. These ideologies happened to be non-religious... and I denounce them as much as I denounce religious ideologies.

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end, his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion.[86]
bold-red-mine

You just proved my point, dumbass. He was motivated by an active belief in a particular communist ideology.
He was following the steps that he actively believed were necessary to build said 'ideal' communist society.

He was never motivated purely by lacking belief in the existence of a god. That in itself does nothing to inform a person's actions. A positive belief in a particular set of ideas is required to arrive at the point of action.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #360 on: January 03, 2012, 12:01:11 PM »
I think this thread shows that the strength of an ideology is the danger, not the specifics of it.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #361 on: January 03, 2012, 01:02:19 PM »
My initial opinion, of trusting a christian more than an atheist in government, was based on the assumption that the atheist was less likely to recognize the concept that people have innate rights, natural, or 'god-given' rights, independent of what the government gives them.

Maybe you need to be specific. 

What rights do you believe are actually given to us by the Christian god?

IDK the specifics.   But considering many of the founders were Christian,  I'm sure they would likely be aligned with the idea of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, as was initially recognized.

More like. No life, No liberty, and the pursuit of misery. Every move weighed against the christian self help book. AKA the Bible. All those do's and don'ts with emphasis on the don'ts.

I've never met anyone who takes the Bible so literally, so.....  But yeah, you do need 'don'ts' in order to have liberty.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #362 on: January 03, 2012, 01:05:54 PM »
My initial opinion, of trusting a christian more than an atheist in government, was based on the assumption that the atheist was less likely to recognize the concept that people have innate rights, natural, or 'god-given' rights, independent of what the government gives them.

Maybe you need to be specific. 

What rights do you believe are actually given to us by the Christian god?

IDK the specifics.   But considering many of the founders were Christian,  I'm sure they would likely be aligned with the idea of life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, as was initially recognized.

I'm not interested in what the founders thought.  I'm asking YOU what rights you believe are actually given to us by the Christian god.

You have stated you would prefer a Christian because of the rights they believe their god has granted to man.  So I'm asking you to name them.  You have an opinion as to why you support a Christian over an atheist - I'm wondering if you actually know WHY you do?

Or is this simply another knee-jerk reaction you've not thought through, in the same way as your opinion on market regulation?

I don't study Christianity so I don't know specific details of their religion.   But I don't think it's necessary to know the specifics.  The fact that they recognize a higher authority than man, the idea of a Creator,  is in line with the country's governmental premise.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #363 on: January 03, 2012, 01:19:26 PM »
The fact that they recognize a higher authority than man, the idea of a Creator,  is in line with the country's governmental premise.

This is false.  There is no such premise anywhere in our Constitution.  Religion and religious concepts are mentioned almost nowhere in our Constitution.  In the very few places where it is, all it says it what the government does not have the power to do.

Do not bring the Declaration of Independence into the discussion; that document was nothing other than a declaration that we were separating ourselves from the crown and giving reasons for the separation.  It has no force of law and is not part or parcel of the Constitution, therefore its mention of a Creator is irrelevant.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #364 on: January 03, 2012, 02:01:36 PM »
The fact that they recognize a higher authority than man, the idea of a Creator,  is in line with the country's governmental premise.

This is false.  There is no such premise anywhere in our Constitution.  Religion and religious concepts are mentioned almost nowhere in our Constitution.  In the very few places where it is, all it says it what the government does not have the power to do.

Do not bring the Declaration of Independence into the discussion; that document was nothing other than a declaration that we were separating ourselves from the crown and giving reasons for the separation.  It has no force of law and is not part or parcel of the Constitution, therefore its mention of a Creator is irrelevant.

The Declaration is very relevant.  It's the first document which explains how the government will be constructed.   It's the basis for even forming a constitution to begin with..

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #365 on: January 03, 2012, 02:09:45 PM »
The Declaration is very relevant.  It's the first document which explains how the government will be constructed.   It's the basis for even forming a constitution to begin with..
No offense, but have you read the whole Declaration?  It's a justification for the then-English colonies to sever their ties with the crown of England; the parts you refer to are leading up to the list of abuses by the King of England to show why he hadn't been doing his duty to the colonies and thus why they were right to go their own way.  That's all it is; it certainly isn't an outline of how they were intending to construct a replacement government.  They had to win the war first.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #366 on: January 03, 2012, 02:16:20 PM »
^^ Which may be part of why it's called...umm..."The Declaration of Independence", rather than something involving a new nation.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #367 on: January 03, 2012, 02:20:17 PM »
The Declaration is very relevant.  It's the first document which explains how the government will be constructed.   It's the basis for even forming a constitution to begin with..
No offense, but have you read the whole Declaration?  It's a justification for the then-English colonies to sever their ties with the crown of England; the parts you refer to are leading up to the list of abuses by the King of England to show why he hadn't been doing his duty to the colonies and thus why they were right to go their own way.  That's all it is; it certainly isn't an outline of how they were intending to construct a replacement government.  They had to win the war first.

Right.  So they are stating a philosophy of how the government should be constructed as opposed to the king's philosophy.   If they weren't , why would they even bother to list ideas such as rights?

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #368 on: January 03, 2012, 02:22:47 PM »
The Declaration is very relevant.  It's the first document which explains how the government will be constructed.   

Please quote any passage in the Declaration of Independence that "explains how the government will be constructed".  I've read the Declaration in its entirety several times and have never seen any such thing therein.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #369 on: January 03, 2012, 02:29:05 PM »
The Declaration is very relevant.  It's the first document which explains how the government will be constructed.   

Please quote any passage in the Declaration of Independence that "explains how the government will be constructed".  I've read the Declaration in its entirety several times and have never seen any such thing therein.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

'institute a government'   ,  'construct' one,  same difference.


Offline pianodwarf

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #370 on: January 03, 2012, 02:35:28 PM »
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

'institute a government'   ,  'construct' one,  same difference.

Those are only principles upon which a government is to be constructed, not an explanation of how the government is to be constructed.  Would you also say that the laws of physics are an explanation of how to build a bridge?
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #371 on: January 03, 2012, 02:39:37 PM »
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. "

'institute a government'   ,  'construct' one,  same difference.

Those are only principles upon which a government is to be constructed, not an explanation of how the government is to be constructed.  Would you also say that the laws of physics are an explanation of how to build a bridge?

No, it's not a specific explanation of how the government is to be constructed, but I think they are stating the principles of what that construction is based on,  so this is not an irrelevant declaration.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #372 on: January 03, 2012, 02:51:38 PM »
No, it's not a specific explanation of how the government is to be constructed, but I think they are stating the principles of what that construction is based on,  so this is not an irrelevant declaration.

The Declaration is very relevant.  It's the first document which explains how the government will be constructed.

1)  Open mouth.
2)  Insert foot.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #373 on: January 03, 2012, 02:58:35 PM »
Hmmm,  the government trusts me that I can pick a president with my vote, but they don't think I'm smart enough to pick the right light bulb,

I have doubts you are smart enough to pick you own nose, let alone make decisions about the direction of our country.

Gill,

There are two a problems here:
1. you are an ignoramus.
2. you do not recognize there is a problem.

You feel qualified to have opinions on topics of which you are entirely ignorant.  You cannot name any regulations you are against, you cannot define socialism, you cannot define what rights are, you cannot explain how you know rights exist or whether they are "correctly defined", etc, ad infinitum.  In short, you are talking out your ass. 

And the most startling part is, you are not even aware of of just how uninformed you are.  You keep talking and talking when people like Azdgari and Omen point out how wrong you are.  I would think a sentient person would occasionally stop and consider the possibility that he might be wrong about something.  But you don't.  You keep going on dodging points and regurgitating dogma apparently without even realizing it. You never pause a moment and try to assimilate new information. It is as if you think your internal model of the universe is complete and perfect and no new information matters.

I suspect there is something wrong with you.  I suspect some kind of mental disorder or possibly brain damage.  It could be you are a troll engine, a computer virus written to annoy people.


In my stupid optimism I hold out hope that you are not someone's cocker spaniel randomly pawing the keyboard despite all affirmative evidence[1].  In the spirit of that optimism let me ask a question of you.  If your higher power[2] were to revoke a right - let's say the right to bear arms - how would you know?



 1. call it faith if you want
 2. whatever that is supposed to mean
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #374 on: January 03, 2012, 03:05:20 PM »
No, it's not a specific explanation of how the government is to be constructed, but I think they are stating the principles of what that construction is based on,  so this is not an irrelevant declaration.

The Declaration is very relevant.  It's the first document which explains how the government will be constructed.

1)  Open mouth.
2)  Insert foot.

Those quotes are taken totally out of context.   I just said I agree with you that the Declaration doesn't explain a construction, in the sense of defining branches and specific laws and what not,  but the Declaration is explaining what principles those specific laws will be based on, which I'm sure you would agree....

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #375 on: January 03, 2012, 03:08:15 PM »
Hmmm,  the government trusts me that I can pick a president with my vote, but they don't think I'm smart enough to pick the right light bulb,

I have doubts you are smart enough to pick you own nose, let alone make decisions about the direction of our country.

Gill,

There are two a problems here:
1. you are an ignoramus.
2. you do not recognize there is a problem.

You feel qualified to have opinions on topics of which you are entirely ignorant.  You cannot name any regulations you are against, you cannot define socialism, you cannot define what rights are, you cannot explain how you know rights exist or whether they are "correctly defined", etc, ad infinitum.  In short, you are talking out your ass. 

And the most startling part is, you are not even aware of of just how uninformed you are.  You keep talking and talking when people like Azdgari and Omen point out how wrong you are.  I would think a sentient person would occasionally stop and consider the possibility that he might be wrong about something.  But you don't.  You keep going on dodging points and regurgitating dogma apparently without even realizing it. You never pause a moment and try to assimilate new information. It is as if you think your internal model of the universe is complete and perfect and no new information matters.

I suspect there is something wrong with you.  I suspect some kind of mental disorder or possibly brain damage.  It could be you are a troll engine, a computer virus written to annoy people.


In my stupid optimism I hold out hope that you are not someone's cocker spaniel randomly pawing the keyboard despite all affirmative evidence[1].  In the spirit of that optimism let me ask a question of you.  If your higher power[2] were to revoke a right - let's say the right to bear arms - how would you know?
 1. call it faith if you want
 2. whatever that is supposed to mean

lol.  Whatever.  I'm not claiming to be an expert. But,  I have read books about the government's founding so I'm far from ignorant on the subject.

 So  if people want to name call instead of state their reasons for disagreement,  this just shows me they have no reasonable points to make of disagreement.

« Last Edit: January 03, 2012, 03:13:35 PM by Gill »

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #376 on: January 03, 2012, 03:17:59 PM »
...  In the spirit of that optimism let me ask a question of you.  If your higher power[1] were to revoke a right - let's say the right to bear arms - how would you know?
 1. whatever that is supposed to mean

And as far as your question;  The right's aren't revocable ,  which is why they are declared 'unalienable'.