Author Topic: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century  (Read 20180 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #319 on: January 02, 2012, 12:03:36 AM »
A true free-market economy would allow the trading of slaves.  After all, laws forbidding the keeping and trading of slaves are an oppressive government regulation.  The market will sort it out.  Do you really want the government to get involved?

It doesn't have to be a 'true free-market', zero regulation,  but,  certainly less regulation.

This would be less regulation.  Isn't that supposed to be good?

After all, if consumers truly object to slave labour, then they won't buy the cheaper products of slave labour, will they?  The market will balance it.  There will only be as much slavery as there is a market for slave-produced goods.

Right?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #320 on: January 02, 2012, 12:05:46 AM »
By the way, do you really want a government-run police force?  Is this something the government should really be getting involved in?  If consumers want certain laws enforced, then they will be willing and eager to pay for them.  And that will create a market for law-enforcement companies to fill this demand.

Is there something wrong with that, Gill?  Are some kind of pinky socialist?
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #321 on: January 02, 2012, 12:08:19 AM »
By the way, do you really want a government-run police force?  Is this something the government should really be getting involved in?  If consumers want certain laws enforced, then they will be willing and eager to pay for them.  And that will create a market for law-enforcement companies to fill this demand.

Is there something wrong with that, Gill?  Are some kind of pinky socialist?

No clue what you're talking about,  this police force.    If that's something a conservative said, well,  I'm not going to agree with everything every conservative says, but I think they're pretty spot on with economic issues, that's for sure.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #322 on: January 02, 2012, 12:09:37 AM »
I'm just talking about free market economics.  You said they were a good thing.  Well, here's your opportunity to own that statement.  What's wrong with free market economics?  I'm promoting free market ideals here!
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #323 on: January 02, 2012, 12:10:26 AM »
Well there's always exceptions, but exceptions aren't the rule.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #324 on: January 02, 2012, 12:12:33 AM »
So...so...free market economics aren't always a good idea?   :o
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #325 on: January 02, 2012, 12:18:16 AM »
Yes, there's many good programs, but overall, there needs to be cutting of many and a re-organization of the bigger ones  (considering the debt)

Anyway, you said you were for deregulation.  That's empty lip-service unless you can think of any actual stuff to deregulate.  Ricky gave you a good long list, and you couldn't even pick one from it.

So it's pretty safe to say that you aren't actually in favor of deregulation, but have been conditioned to say that you are.  Because if you really wanted deregulation, then you'd have some idea of what it was and could relate that to the rest of us.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #326 on: January 02, 2012, 12:19:29 AM »
No, I said the government needed to recognize a higher authority than the government officials themselves.   Therefore they declared natural-rights.   Which,  then gives the citizens a higher authority than the government officials to base their rights on.

I was never wrong, you just again, misinterpret.

You keep making the bogus claim that a government needs to "recognize a higher authority than the government officials" and you claim that the US government does so but you have never actually showed this. You reference "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." But that is a statement about being endowed with some rights. It does not indicate (as you imply) that the creator is a higher authority than any member of the government. Nowhere is it stated by any US government document that the creator is recognized as a higher authority. If I am wrong, just provide a link to the offical US gov. page presenting that document.

You also make spurious claims that any government official can take away a person's rights on a whim (your implication). That is not true since every government official has to document what they do and justify it with the existing laws and rules. Can they find obscure rules or laws to try and screw someone over? Sure. But they do have to find a reason. Unless they are a part of Congress who can make new laws – like the Patriot Act – that does remove rigths.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #327 on: January 02, 2012, 12:22:39 AM »
^^ Lest we make the mistake of thinking that Obama is some sort of protector of rights, either:

http://www.examiner.com/independent-in-salt-lake-city/obama-signs-ndaa-into-law-dismantles-bill-of-rights

EDIT:  Removed Facebook link.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2012, 01:07:04 AM by Azdgari »
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #328 on: January 02, 2012, 12:23:48 AM »
Yes, there's many good programs, but overall, there needs to be cutting of many and a re-organization of the bigger ones  (considering the debt)

Anyway, you said you were for deregulation.  That's empty lip-service unless you can think of any actual stuff to deregulate.  Ricky gave you a good long list, and you couldn't even pick one from it.

So it's pretty safe to say that you aren't actually in favor of deregulation, but have been conditioned to say that you are.  Because if you really wanted deregulation, then you'd have some idea of what it was and could relate that to the rest of us.

Nah, Im just too lazy now to go through every issue.   And there's all kinds of issues since the government is such a behemoth, which is my main point.  Thousands of regulations.

I could name a few though.  How about government mandated healthcare?  Is the government going to throw me in jail because if I don't buy it, what if I can't afford it? Will the government pay for it, and if so who's money?

There's just all sorts of things which are complex if gotten into.  But that's the thing, we could talk for days the government is so much into everything.

Hmmm,  the government trusts me that I can pick a president with my vote, but they don't think I'm smart enough to pick the right light bulb, hehe

Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #329 on: January 02, 2012, 12:24:06 AM »
Yeah I did address it, if my answer is not something you agree with, then state why.  It has nothing to do with dishonesty.   There's no secret intent to deceive here.  It sounds like paranoia when people keep saying this.   Just state why you disagree....

You mischaracterized what he was saying and addressed the mischaracterization.

Stop pretending innocence.

Dude, if he didn't do this, he wouldn't have anything to post.      &)
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #330 on: January 02, 2012, 12:29:07 AM »
I could name a few though.  How about government mandated healthcare?  Is the government going to throw me in jail because if I don't buy it, what if I can't afford it? Will the government pay for it, and if so who's money?

If that's accurate, then it's a silly law.  Is it accurate?  And who told you so?

There's just all sorts of things which are complex if gotten into.  But that's the thing, we could talk for days the government is so much into everything.

I disagree, because you don't seem to have much to actually talk about on the issue.  I mean, you can only proclaim your desire for deregulation so many times before it gets old, at least without actually advocating deregulation.

Hmmm,  the government trusts me that I can pick a president with my vote, but they don't think I'm smart enough to pick the right light bulb, hehe

Well, are you?
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #331 on: January 02, 2012, 12:29:45 AM »
No, I said the government needed to recognize a higher authority than the government officials themselves.   Therefore they declared natural-rights.   Which,  then gives the citizens a higher authority than the government officials to base their rights on.

I was never wrong, you just again, misinterpret.

You keep making the bogus claim that a government needs to "recognize a higher authority than the government officials" and you claim that the US government does so but you have never actually showed this. You reference "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." But that is a statement about being endowed with some rights. It does not indicate (as you imply) that the creator is a higher authority than any member of the government. Nowhere is it stated by any US government document that the creator is recognized as a higher authority. If I am wrong, just provide a link to the offical US gov. page presenting that document.


Well, if you personally believe that your Creator is a member of government, then I guess it is.   The Creator is generic, like Jetson said, so people can be free to determine what that is for themselves, but it's not the government for most.

Quote
You also make spurious claims that any government official can take away a person's rights on a whim (your implication). That is not true since every government official has to document what they do and justify it with the existing laws and rules. Can they find obscure rules or laws to try and screw someone over? Sure. But they do have to find a reason. Unless they are a part of Congress who can make new laws – like the Patriot Act – that does remove rigths.

Not that they can just take rights away on a whim.  But that they would have a more legitimate argument for taking away a right,  if that right was declared as a right given to citizens by the government instead of endowed by a creator.   

Offline Hatter23

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #332 on: January 02, 2012, 12:33:25 AM »
No, I don't think anyone, even conservative is for zero social programs.

Ever heard of Ayn Rand, or the Cato Institute?

Two favorites of Penn and Teller, who are atheists. Even if they seem to agree with the "supply Side Jesus"
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #333 on: January 02, 2012, 12:33:35 AM »
Well, if you personally believe that your Creator is a member of government, then I guess it is.   The Creator is generic, like Jetson said, so people can be free to determine what that is for themselves, but it's not the government for most.

How do you do that?  How do you read a post with a specific point...

Quote
... But that is a statement about being endowed with some rights. It does not indicate (as you imply) that the creator is a higher authority than any member of the government. Nowhere is it stated by any US government document that the creator is recognized as a higher authority. If I am wrong, just provide a link to the offical US gov. page presenting that document.

...and then blatantly ignore it while pretending to make a post that addresses it?
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #334 on: January 02, 2012, 12:37:30 AM »
Well, if you personally believe that your Creator is a member of government, then I guess it is.   The Creator is generic, like Jetson said, so people can be free to determine what that is for themselves, but it's not the government for most.

How do you do that?  How do you read a post with a specific point...

Quote
... But that is a statement about being endowed with some rights. It does not indicate (as you imply) that the creator is a higher authority than any member of the government. Nowhere is it stated by any US government document that the creator is recognized as a higher authority. If I am wrong, just provide a link to the offical US gov. page presenting that document.

...and then blatantly ignore it while pretending to make a post that addresses it?

The Declaration doesn't specifically indicate that the Creator is a higher authority than the government because this is an obvious implication.  Why would your Creator be a government official? 


Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #335 on: January 02, 2012, 12:38:59 AM »
Who said anything about it being a government official?  It could be Zeus Almighty Himself.  But why assume that Zeus (or whoever) is a higher authority than the government?  Because of his powers of destruction, or what?
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #336 on: January 02, 2012, 12:44:09 AM »
Who said anything about it being a government official?  It could be Zeus Almighty Himself.  But why assume that Zeus (or whoever) is a higher authority than the government?  Because of his powers of destruction, or what?

You don't have to assume anything.  If you want, you can assume that a government official is your highest authority in life.   But, most people don't wish to do that, which is why the Declaration was written the way it was. 

Offline Hatter23

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #337 on: January 02, 2012, 12:47:19 AM »


No it's actually the right wing conservatives who favor personal liberty.   

Rightwing Conservatives:

Against ACLU
Against woman's right to choose
Against sex ed
For Mandatory prayer
For specifically singling out Christianity to give special privilege to in opposition of bill of rights
For Censorship
For the continuation of Guantanamo prison
For the seizure of private property to give to developers
For the expansion of prison terms
For the "war on drugs"


So, as usual, you are wrong.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #338 on: January 02, 2012, 12:53:06 AM »
Tell that to the theists who want to turn the USA into a theocracy.

lol, maybe there are people that way, but that will never happen.

You haven't been paying attention to the Tea Party and their manipulation of the Republican Party.

The Tea Party is for smaller government, I haven't heard much about religious issues.  Sounds like a good idea to me.  Unless of course, one enjoys a massive government putting it's hands into all aspects of people's lives.  Some people don't mind that I suppose....

If you haven't heard about the religious issues then you haven't been listening – at all. So you're saying you are for a government putting its hands into all aspects of your life since the Tea Party is very pro-religion including such things as teaching cretinism, er, um, creationism, banning abortion, etc.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #339 on: January 02, 2012, 12:53:50 AM »


No it's actually the right wing conservatives who favor personal liberty.   

Rightwing Conservatives:

Against ACLU
Against woman's right to choose
Against sex ed
For Mandatory prayer
For specifically singling out Christianity to give special privilege to in opposition of bill of rights
For Censorship
For the continuation of Guantanamo prison
For the seizure of private property to give to developers
For the expansion of prison terms
For the "war on drugs"


So, as usual, you are wrong.

 You can cherry pick particular issues on either side which seem to contradict the overall premise of a political ideology.  But , when you look at conservatism overall, it's primary focus is smaller government regulation.

Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #340 on: January 02, 2012, 12:55:43 AM »
A true free-market economy would allow the trading of slaves.  After all, laws forbidding the keeping and trading of slaves are an oppressive government regulation.  The market will sort it out.  Do you really want the government to get involved?

It doesn't have to be a 'true free-market', zero regulation,  but,  certainly less regulation.

Ah, so you want more activities like the derivatives trading that caused the recent major economic downturn. You might have heard of it - our current recession?
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #341 on: January 02, 2012, 12:57:39 AM »
You don't have to assume anything.  If you want, you can assume that a government official is your highest authority in life.

Or that I am.  Or that the people as a group are.

Anyway, it's good to see you concede that the rights weren't actually written in as coming from a higher authority in the first place.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #342 on: January 02, 2012, 12:58:31 AM »
You can cherry pick particular issues on either side which seem to contradict the overall premise of a political ideology.  But , when you look at conservatism overall, it's primary focus is smaller government regulation.

...of the market.  Absolutely nothing else.

EDIT:  Except for guns.  Those have to remain free, too.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #343 on: January 02, 2012, 01:06:27 AM »
^^ Lest we make the mistake of thinking that Obama is some sort of protector of rights, either:

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.examiner.com%2Findependent-in-salt-lake-city%2Fobama-signs-ndaa-into-law-dismantles-bill-of-rights&h=-AQGJYgPZ

That bill makes my skin crawl.

I know Obama's not perfect (far form it) but he's doing a reasonable job in general. After all he inherited a ton of crap from W - sorry I wasn't being respectful - George W B- wait, I forgot something, he likes religion stuffed into the middle of everything so I must include the cross - George double-cross-u Bush. Huge deficit, 2 wars, recession - a whole lot of crap. And Obama's own party doesn't support him enough. But then he goes and wusses out at times versus the republicans. And now he's signed that crap bill.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #344 on: January 02, 2012, 01:07:56 AM »
In terms of economics, he did inherit an awful situation.  But that's absolutely no excuse for him signing that bill.  No excuse at all.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #345 on: January 02, 2012, 01:08:31 AM »
You don't have to assume anything.  If you want, you can assume that a government official is your highest authority in life.

Or that I am.  Or that the people as a group are.

Anyway, it's good to see you concede that the rights weren't actually written in as coming from a higher authority in the first place.

A higher authority than the government , yes,  I interpret it that way.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #346 on: January 02, 2012, 01:10:11 AM »
Of course you do.  So do I.  We use our authority to do that.

Funny how it comes back to our authority to declare the document's meaning, eh?
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Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #347 on: January 02, 2012, 01:16:25 AM »
Well, if you personally believe that your Creator is a member of government, then I guess it is.

LIAR – I never said what you claim above.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther