Author Topic: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century  (Read 21374 times)

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Online Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #290 on: January 01, 2012, 07:00:53 PM »
Perhaps, Gill, because you made sure to interpret their positions in such a way as to reinforce your anti-atheist bigotry?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline rickymooston

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #291 on: January 01, 2012, 07:03:32 PM »
Maybe this is a unrealistic assumption, but I have to say, so far, I'm seen several people on here that have confirmed it, so I'm not giving up that assumption yet.

The people you've been dealing with here likely support the principals of democracy, free speech and the rest.

What they are saying is, nature doesn't make it so.

Many societies have existed where those rights didn't exist and in fact many Christian societies are included here. Consider the fact that the New Testament tells slaves to be nice to their masters, even if those masters are Christian. It doesn't tell Christian slave masters to free their slaves although I believe at least one case is recorded where a Christian slave was freed.

The order of the monarchy is used as the main analogy of the relationship between man and God. No suggestion is made that that order is wrong.

Is essence, American democracy is not following biblical principals but principals that evolved in
American society over time. Some Christian values may have had a positive impact but several of the founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson were not even Christians by any serious definition of the word.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #292 on: January 01, 2012, 07:04:53 PM »
Perhaps, Gill, because you made sure to interpret their positions in such a way as to reinforce your anti-atheist bigotry?

heh, no, not a bigot, just yet anyway.  I was just interested to understand where people were coming from.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #293 on: January 01, 2012, 07:11:35 PM »
Maybe this is a unrealistic assumption, but I have to say, so far, I'm seen several people on here that have confirmed it, so I'm not giving up that assumption yet.

The people you've been dealing with here likely support the principals of democracy, free speech and the rest.

What they are saying is, nature doesn't make it so.

Many societies have existed where those rights didn't exist and in fact many Christian societies are included here. Consider the fact that the New Testament tells slaves to be nice to their masters, even if those masters are Christian. It doesn't tell Christian slave masters to free their slaves although I believe at least one case is recorded where a Christian slave was freed.

The order of the monarchy is used as the main analogy of the relationship between man and God. No suggestion is made that that order is wrong.

Is essence, American democracy is not following biblical principals but principals that evolved in
American society over time. Some Christian values may have had a positive impact but several of the founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson were not even Christians by any serious definition of the word.

I don't doubt anyone here supports * democracy.    I think,  this is an innate desire of all people, which is why it should be recognized as a natural-right, which it rightfully is.

What if the founding documents said something like: 'all men are made equal by the government,  endowed with rights from the government'.  This is the philosophy of the communist.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 07:15:03 PM by Gill »

Offline rickymooston

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #294 on: January 01, 2012, 07:42:26 PM »
What if the founding documents said something like: 'all men are made equal by the government,  endowed with rights from the government'. 

The real authority in the system is "we the people". And indeed, it was the people with the common belief in the "natural rights" that put them in place by force of arms. That is to say, people were bound by a common belief in 'freedom'.

The checks and balances include a right to free speech; i.e., to disagree with the system. Jury of one's peers. Laws of evidence, etc, etc. Regular elections and more importantly, the right of assembly. Even the right to bear arms. The right to create political parties. There is even a limit on the power of the president and a way to get rid of him.

Serving under God, natural rights (from God) and so on are all rhetoric. The substance is a system with checks and balances to reduce abuses.

George III of England served "God", "Ich Dein" was his official motto and it meant I serve. God save the king was the anthem of the UK at the time, wasn't it? I believe so.

Quote
This is the philosophy of the communist.

The communists have several aspects which make the idea of rights suspect. First there is the idea of a
"counter revolutionary".  Further more it is a one party system.

Now, I'm unsure which came from Marx/Engels and which from Lenin/Stalin/Mao/Pot Pol etc. Its been more
than 20 years since I've been well read on this.

Granted the communists consider themselves a "democracy" but one isn't allowed to assemble. One isn't allowed to form other parties.

The main thing about communism is that wealth is shared and there is no "capitalist" owning production. Everthing is in the hands of the 'workers'.
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #295 on: January 01, 2012, 07:43:51 PM »

I don't doubt anyone here supports * democracy.    I think,  this is an innate desire of all people, which is why it should be recognized as a natural-right, which it rightfully is.

What if the founding documents said something like: 'all men are made equal by the government,  endowed with rights from the government'.  This is the philosophy of the communist.

I don't believe people have an "innate" desire to live in a democracy at all. The only innate desire people have, besides procreation, is the desire to be part of the herd however that herd may be governed. Why do you think religion exists? Why do you think we're always looking for a strong leader. I'm sure there are millions of people in america who would have been quite happy for Dubya to have been president for life.
People like regimented, ordered lives, and that's what religion and the state represent. Give us your compliance and we will give you law, order, and a sense of belonging.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline rickymooston

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #296 on: January 01, 2012, 07:57:50 PM »
I don't believe people have an "innate" desire to live in a democracy at all.

It doesn't seem hard to convince people its a good idea unless they are in the priveledged group.

The only innate desire people have, besides procreation, is the desire to be part of the herd however that herd may be governed.

The "only"? how can you be sure? I certain agree we have social instincts.

Quote
Why do you think religion exists?

Many theories have been proposed. I think you are on to something but is that everything? A sense of
belonging to the order of the universe?  :o

Quote
Why do you think we're always looking for a strong leader.

Having  strong leader isn't incapatible for having a reason to choose one. And further more, a strong
leader isn't enough. Very few Americans would vote for Joseph Stalin.

Quote
I'm sure there are millions of people in america who would have been quite happy for Dubya to have been president for life.
People like regimented, ordered lives, and that's what religion and the state represent. Give us your compliance and we will give you law, order, and a sense of belonging.

Really? When he exited office his numbers were at an all time low.

I've met people who felt a theocracy was better because they believed a theocracy would follow God's principles. I think members of the aristocraacy like Goering believed in an aristocracy but democracy certainly has wide appeal
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #297 on: January 01, 2012, 08:26:40 PM »
 author=rickymooston link=topic=21064.msg468800#msg468800 date=1325465870]


Quote
Having  strong leader isn't incapatible for having a reason to choose one. And further more, a strong
leader isn't enough. Very few Americans would vote for Joseph Stalin.



If you go by Americam elections only 50% actually vote for anybody. I doubt Stalin would get many votes but I'll bet in the current climate Hitler would. All that Master race/American exceptionalism would go down a treat. It's only after he was elected that you find out what he is really like. By then of course it's too late. How many rights have you lost because of Patriot act 1+2? Do I see armed masses decending on Washington to demand those rights be reinstated. Obama has just signed into law indefinite detention FFS.

For 95% of human history democracy has barely existed. All we've had are absolute monarchs/emperors/pharoas etc supported by whatever religion held sway in that part of the world. None of these people were elected and there was no apparent mass movement to change it.

Generally speaking all people want is a roof over their heads, enough to eat, and enough money to pay the bills. Give them those things and they don't care who is in charge.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #298 on: January 01, 2012, 08:29:49 PM »
Is essence, American democracy is not following biblical principals but principals that evolved in
American society over time. Some Christian values may have had a positive impact but several of the founding fathers such as Thomas Jefferson were not even Christians by any serious definition of the word.

Although your point is is true there are also things that are called blue laws and which thay are still in practice today.
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #299 on: January 01, 2012, 08:41:59 PM »

I don't doubt anyone here supports * democracy.    I think,  this is an innate desire of all people, which is why it should be recognized as a natural-right, which it rightfully is.

What if the founding documents said something like: 'all men are made equal by the government,  endowed with rights from the government'.  This is the philosophy of the communist.

I don't believe people have an "innate" desire to live in a democracy at all. The only innate desire people have, besides procreation, is the desire to be part of the herd however that herd may be governed. Why do you think religion exists? Why do you think we're always looking for a strong leader. I'm sure there are millions of people in america who would have been quite happy for Dubya to have been president for life.
People like regimented, ordered lives, and that's what religion and the state represent. Give us your compliance and we will give you law, order, and a sense of belonging.

No, most people do have an innate desire to be free from government oppression.   Which is why, all the most modern civilizations are democratic to a degree.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #300 on: January 01, 2012, 08:42:45 PM »
If you or someone else doesn't have such a desire though, that is okay, you are free to join a slave community.

Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #301 on: January 01, 2012, 09:00:20 PM »
If you or someone else doesn't have such a desire though, that is okay, you are free to join a slave community.

Maybe you should include the 50% who won't bother vote in the presidential election this year. Yet the guy who wins with his slightly more than 25% will take that as a mandate to govern. If any country in the west is heading for dictatorship it's America. Voter apathy, rightwing politics, and billionaires paying for political parties.
We'll see which one of us ends up in a slave community first.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Online Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #302 on: January 01, 2012, 09:09:44 PM »
No, most people do have an innate desire to be free from government oppression.   Which is why, all the most modern civilizations are democratic to a degree.

Recognizing an innate desire for something doesn't entail believing that thing to be a good idea.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #303 on: January 01, 2012, 09:17:55 PM »
If you or someone else doesn't have such a desire though, that is okay, you are free to join a slave community.

Maybe you should include the 50% who won't bother vote in the presidential election this year. Yet the guy who wins with his slightly more than 25% will take that as a mandate to govern. If any country in the west is heading for dictatorship it's America. Voter apathy, rightwing politics, and billionaires paying for political parties.
We'll see which one of us ends up in a slave community first.

No it's actually the right wing conservatives who favor personal liberty.   The liberal democrats are the best to vote for if one wants to encourage a further socialist nation, as they already are....

Online Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #304 on: January 01, 2012, 09:40:15 PM »
Then why are they always ragging on the ACLU as an evil organization?
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Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #305 on: January 01, 2012, 09:48:39 PM »
If you or someone else doesn't have such a desire though, that is okay, you are free to join a slave community.

Maybe you should include the 50% who won't bother vote in the presidential election this year. Yet the guy who wins with his slightly more than 25% will take that as a mandate to govern. If any country in the west is heading for dictatorship it's America. Voter apathy, rightwing politics, and billionaires paying for political parties.
We'll see which one of us ends up in a slave community first.

No it's actually the right wing conservatives who favor personal liberty.   

Yeah. For them not for you. You're not rich enough. All they want from you is your vote. Then you can go away be poor because I doubt you have a pot to piss in.
I'll bet you can't wait for November so you can vote for one of bible thumping loonies they're lining up to run against Obama or are you waiting to see which one of them will promise to bring in the death penalty for doctors who perform abortions.
I mean after all the right to an abortion shouldn't be part of any americans personal liberty now should it?
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Online Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #306 on: January 01, 2012, 09:58:48 PM »
^^ Forget abortion.  How about the right to sexual education in the first place?  Gotta oppose that.
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Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #307 on: January 01, 2012, 10:18:50 PM »
^^ Forget abortion.  How about the right to sexual education in the first place?  Gotta oppose that.

Exactly. Gill, and others of his ilk, have a very blinkered view of what "personal liberty" actually entails.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline Brakeman

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #308 on: January 01, 2012, 10:22:44 PM »
I'd like to see a comparative list, with one column being freedoms a secular government prohibits due to atheism, and a column of freedoms a theocratic government prohibits.

I'm sure it'd be a close race ..............................Not!
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Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #309 on: January 01, 2012, 11:29:13 PM »
Yeah, people do care about what it says, if they have any interest in living in a free society.

Tell that to the theists who want to turn the USA into a theocracy.

lol, maybe there are people that way, but that will never happen.

You haven't been paying attention to the Tea Party and their manipulation of the Republican Party.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #310 on: January 01, 2012, 11:29:46 PM »
If you or someone else doesn't have such a desire though, that is okay, you are free to join a slave community.

Maybe you should include the 50% who won't bother vote in the presidential election this year. Yet the guy who wins with his slightly more than 25% will take that as a mandate to govern. If any country in the west is heading for dictatorship it's America. Voter apathy, rightwing politics, and billionaires paying for political parties.
We'll see which one of us ends up in a slave community first.

No it's actually the right wing conservatives who favor personal liberty.   

Yeah. For them not for you. You're not rich enough. All they want from you is your vote. Then you can go away be poor because I doubt you have a pot to piss in.
I'll bet you can't wait for November so you can vote for one of bible thumping loonies they're lining up to run against Obama or are you waiting to see which one of them will promise to bring in the death penalty for doctors who perform abortions.
I mean after all the right to an abortion shouldn't be part of any americans personal liberty now should it?

I really don't see how abortion or the death penalty is a major concern for most anyone when we have a government now which is spending itself into oblivion and taking all the citizens with it.   So yeah,  I don't think I'll be voting for someone who believes that spending more tax money will grow the economy.   

Online Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #311 on: January 01, 2012, 11:33:54 PM »
I really don't see how abortion or the death penalty is a major concern for most anyone when we have a government now which is spending itself into oblivion and taking all the citizens with it.

It's a major concern to right-wing Ameican conservatives.  Much more of a concern than the debt is.

So yeah,  I don't think I'll be voting for someone who believes that spending more tax money will grow the economy.

So you'll be part of the ~50% who don't vote then, right?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #312 on: January 01, 2012, 11:40:14 PM »
So yeah,  I don't think I'll be voting for someone who believes that spending more tax money will grow the economy.

So you'll be part of the ~50% who don't vote then, right?

No, I'll vote for any republican, since they believe in free-market economics.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #313 on: January 01, 2012, 11:43:30 PM »
.

Online Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #314 on: January 01, 2012, 11:46:46 PM »
No, I'll vote for any republican, since they believe in free-market economics.

Which is far more important than preserving your rights.  Okay.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #315 on: January 01, 2012, 11:47:56 PM »
Yeah, people do care about what it says, if they have any interest in living in a free society.

Tell that to the theists who want to turn the USA into a theocracy.

lol, maybe there are people that way, but that will never happen.

You haven't been paying attention to the Tea Party and their manipulation of the Republican Party.

The Tea Party is for smaller government, I haven't heard much about religious issues.  Sounds like a good idea to me.  Unless of course, one enjoys a massive government putting it's hands into all aspects of people's lives.  Some people don't mind that I suppose....

Online Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #316 on: January 01, 2012, 11:51:01 PM »
A true free-market economy would allow the trading of slaves.  After all, laws forbidding the keeping and trading of slaves are an oppressive government regulation.  The market will sort it out.  Do you really want the government to get involved?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #317 on: January 01, 2012, 11:56:57 PM »
A true free-market economy would allow the trading of slaves.  After all, laws forbidding the keeping and trading of slaves are an oppressive government regulation.  The market will sort it out.  Do you really want the government to get involved?

It doesn't have to be a 'true free-market', zero regulation,  but,  certainly less regulation.

Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #318 on: January 01, 2012, 11:58:26 PM »
Government run healthcare.  Is that not a socialist concept, since the government is owning and controlling an otherwise private industry?  And, of course, supported by most liberals.   One example of many....

If you are talking about Medicare then you are completely wrong. What happens with Medicare is that you sign up with an insurance company who gets money from you (your premiums) and deals with paying your medical bills. Does the government participate in this process? Yes basically by limiting what the health care provider can charge through regulations and by subsidizing a portion of your health care.

Do you have a problem with the government subsidizing things? Be careful – oil companies and other big businesses are subsidized and don't want the government to stop. And the conservatives will fight you tooth and nail to keep the subsidies going.

So, "government is owning and controlling an otherwise private industry"? No – totally wrong. Regulating and subsidizing it, yes.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther