Author Topic: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century  (Read 19122 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #261 on: January 01, 2012, 12:40:05 PM »
No, you just misinterpret what I've said.  If you read back through the topic, I mentioned one could call 'god-given' rights as 'natural-rights' just as well. 

Let me restate this as clearly as possible.

You claimed that we needed to recognize a higher authority; one higher than people. The very highest authority, which assured "god-given"/"natural" rights for everyone.
Later on, you claimed that people should be the highest authority, not governments.

So, you lied or realized that you were wrong. Either way, a retraction would show some degree of intellectual honesty.


Your move.
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Offline Omen

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #262 on: January 01, 2012, 12:56:21 PM »
Government run healthcare.

The government doesn't own healthcare.

Quote
since the government is owning

Not only does the government not own it, but the government also doesn't own the insurance provided to members of congress.  Instead, privately contracted insurance/management companies fill the role.  In fact, my employer provides the vast majority of insurance to government officials.

Quote
and controlling an otherwise private industry?

This renders your qualification for 'socialism' moot, a government can't exist without regulating something that could be done privately.  Either all governments are socialist by necessity or socialism has no useful meaning in the manner you're using it.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #263 on: January 01, 2012, 01:08:01 PM »
No, I don't think anyone, even conservative is for zero social programs.

Ever heard of Ayn Rand, or the Cato Institute?
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #264 on: January 01, 2012, 01:29:34 PM »

Quote
  I made a general statement that liberal philosophies are socialist.

Socialism is an economic system where the state actually owns economic production/management. 

Right.  And so if a liberal is usually for large government programs, institutions, and control of otherwise private industry, then they are promoting socialist ideas.   So I don't see the confusion really.

None of which falls into the definition of an economic system where the state actually owns economic production/management.

The confusion is nested in your bias.

Government run healthcare.  Is that not a socialist concept, since the government is owning and controlling an otherwise private industry?  And, of course, supported by most liberals.   One example of many....

I understand that you prefer it that a person go bankrupt when their child is treated for cancer for years and they can't get health insurance because their kid has cancer and it's their own damned fault for not getting an abortion, which you are against as well. But there are those of us who think that the cost of health care, if spread fairly across the society, can make disease and injury and chronic health problems a smaller concern, moneywise. Pardon us for caring.

One half of the bankruptcies in this country are caused by medical costs. I know, I know, you don't want the government to interfere with a lawyers right to rip people off, but there are those of us who look at humans who are suffering with a little more compassion than jesus freaks do. No idea why, but that seems to be the case. Medical care costs are way beyond what many in our population can pay. Someone making minimum wage or even twice that can't afford health insurance. An emergency appendix operation (is there any other kind) costs at least ten grand these days, fully one third of the average income of one person. People die because of this. But no biggie, some get to heaven, some go to hell, but that's the way it is. Or am I putting words into your mouth.

There are those of us who would like to see something besides the free market control medical costs. Nobody is saying all doctors should work for the government and all hospitals should be owned by the government and all nurses should be drafted into the army. If private health insurance is an instance where people who can afford is spread the cost of medical care around, why is doing so through the government suddenly the work of the devil. If the military is there to serve and protect, including our corporations, why can't the government also be there to protect civilians. Medically.

And as Omen says, this is liberal stuff, not socialism. There is a reason we have two words instead of one.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #265 on: January 01, 2012, 02:35:48 PM »
No, you just misinterpret what I've said.  If you read back through the topic, I mentioned one could call 'god-given' rights as 'natural-rights' just as well. 

Let me restate this as clearly as possible.

You claimed that we needed to recognize a higher authority; one higher than people. The very highest authority, which assured "god-given"/"natural" rights for everyone.
Later on, you claimed that people should be the highest authority, not governments.

So, you lied or realized that you were wrong. Either way, a retraction would show some degree of intellectual honesty.


Your move.

No, I said the government needed to recognize a higher authority than the government officials themselves.   Therefore they declared natural-rights.   Which,  then gives the citizens a higher authority than the government officials to base their rights on.

I was never wrong, you just again, misinterpret.

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #266 on: January 01, 2012, 02:45:30 PM »
The people are a higher authority than the government itself.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #267 on: January 01, 2012, 02:45:38 PM »
Government run healthcare.

The government doesn't own healthcare.

Quote
since the government is owning

Not only does the government not own it, but the government also doesn't own the insurance provided to members of congress.  Instead, privately contracted insurance/management companies fill the role.  In fact, my employer provides the vast majority of insurance to government officials.



Quote
and controlling an otherwise private industry?
Quote

This renders your qualification for 'socialism' moot, a government can't exist without regulating something that could be done privately.  Either all governments are socialist by necessity or socialism has no useful meaning in the manner you're using it.

So you're basically saying that until a government takes complete ownership and regulation of a company,  it is not socialism.    So then if the government owns and regulates 90% of General Motors,  this is still capitalism, since they don't have full ownership/control.

I don't think socialism has to be seen an either/or situation.   There are degrees of socialism.   And liberals, tend to lean towards the socialist side of the spectrum.


Online Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #268 on: January 01, 2012, 02:50:42 PM »
Gill, you didn't address what Omen actually said.

Instead, you pretended he said something other than what he actually said.

That's flagrantly dishonest.  But typical of your behaviour in most of your threads.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #269 on: January 01, 2012, 02:53:47 PM »
Gill, you didn't address what Omen actually said.

Instead, you pretended he said something other than what he actually said.

That's flagrantly dishonest.  But typical of your behaviour in most of your threads.

Yeah I did address it, if my answer is not something you agree with, then state why.  It has nothing to do with dishonesty.   There's no secret intent to deceive here.  It sounds like paranoia when people keep saying this.   Just state why you disagree....

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #270 on: January 01, 2012, 02:55:47 PM »
It's actually getting kind of amusing, I've never experienced this debating anywhere else, where when people disagree with a comment, they often claim the person is being dishonest, instead of just stating their disagreement and reasoning.

Offline jetson

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #271 on: January 01, 2012, 03:07:09 PM »
It's actually getting kind of amusing, I've never experienced this debating anywhere else, where when people disagree with a comment, they often claim the person is being dishonest, instead of just stating their disagreement and reasoning.

Yeah, this forum is funny like that.  If you look closely, you will see atheists calling out other atheists.  Honesty, and being prepared to admit when you make a mistake, are good traits, not something one should shy away from - no matter their worldview.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #272 on: January 01, 2012, 03:16:28 PM »
It's actually getting kind of amusing, I've never experienced this debating anywhere else, where when people disagree with a comment, they often claim the person is being dishonest, instead of just stating their disagreement and reasoning.

Yeah, this forum is funny like that.  If you look closely, you will see atheists calling out other atheists.  Honesty, and being prepared to admit when you make a mistake, are good traits, not something one should shy away from - no matter their worldview.

Agreed, but I don't think dishonesty has much to do with any of these discussions.   It's just different people with different views on many topics who will have disagreements over interpretations and implications of what people say.   And this is just natural.....

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #273 on: January 01, 2012, 03:18:14 PM »
No, I said the government needed to recognize a higher authority than the government officials themselves.   Therefore they declared natural-rights.   Which,  then gives the citizens a higher authority than the government officials to base their rights on.

I was never wrong, you just again, misinterpret.

A higher authority even higher than people. It was OUR point that people elected officials and voted on important matters. This is the very basis of democracy. If your argument was that countries should be democratic, then you have a really funny way of showing it.
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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #274 on: January 01, 2012, 04:13:23 PM »
Yeah I did address it, if my answer is not something you agree with, then state why.  It has nothing to do with dishonesty.   There's no secret intent to deceive here.  It sounds like paranoia when people keep saying this.   Just state why you disagree....

You mischaracterized what he was saying and addressed the mischaracterization.

Stop pretending innocence.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #275 on: January 01, 2012, 04:58:17 PM »
Yeah I did address it, if my answer is not something you agree with, then state why.  It has nothing to do with dishonesty.   There's no secret intent to deceive here.  It sounds like paranoia when people keep saying this.   Just state why you disagree....

You mischaracterized what he was saying and addressed the mischaracterization.

Stop pretending innocence.

No, I just gave my opinion on the implications of what he said.   If he disagrees with that, then fine, he can say why.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #276 on: January 01, 2012, 05:14:35 PM »
No, I said the government needed to recognize a higher authority than the government officials themselves.   Therefore they declared natural-rights.   Which,  then gives the citizens a higher authority than the government officials to base their rights on.

I was never wrong, you just again, misinterpret.

A higher authority even higher than people. It was OUR point that people elected officials and voted on important matters. This is the very basis of democracy. If your argument was that countries should be democratic, then you have a really funny way of showing it.

Yea, I agree people ultimately decide who to vote on and to argue legal issues. 

I was just going further to say why it was necessary for the founders to declare certain god-given rights.  "rights endowed by a Creator" to be specific.

Some people say it doesn't make a difference to make such a declaration.   I disagree, as i've said why.

Offline jetson

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #277 on: January 01, 2012, 05:55:07 PM »

Yea, I agree people ultimately decide who to vote on and to argue legal issues. 

I was just going further to say why it was necessary for the founders to declare certain god-given rights.  "rights endowed by a Creator" to be specific.

Some people say it doesn't make a difference to make such a declaration.   I disagree, as i've said why.

I take that quoted set of words to be completely secular.  In other words, the writers could have cared less how people believed they were "created", or what god, if any, they may have believed in.  In the end, all people are equal, no matter their "imagined" origin.  And notice, they use the word "men" instead of people.  Which of coursed paved a nice path for slavery and women's lesser rights when the country started out.

We know so much more about how humans got here, and we know it had nothing to do with the imaginary gods invented by ancient humans who had no idea they were floating on a sphere, around a sun, within a galaxy, which is one in a billion or more galaxies.  Creator is a secular term that allows all belief systems to play, IMO.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #278 on: January 01, 2012, 06:15:36 PM »

Yea, I agree people ultimately decide who to vote on and to argue legal issues. 

I was just going further to say why it was necessary for the founders to declare certain god-given rights.  "rights endowed by a Creator" to be specific.

Some people say it doesn't make a difference to make such a declaration.   I disagree, as i've said why.

I take that quoted set of words to be completely secular.  In other words, the writers could have cared less how people believed they were "created", or what god, if any, they may have believed in.  In the end, all people are equal, no matter their "imagined" origin.  And notice, they use the word "men" instead of people.  Which of coursed paved a nice path for slavery and women's lesser rights when the country started out.

We know so much more about how humans got here, and we know it had nothing to do with the imaginary gods invented by ancient humans who had no idea they were floating on a sphere, around a sun, within a galaxy, which is one in a billion or more galaxies.  Creator is a secular term that allows all belief systems to play, IMO.

Totally agree.   One's creator can be 'the universe' if that's how they see it.   

But I think it was still a necessary component to include in order to displace the powers from temporary government officials, which was my main point so many seemed to miss....

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #279 on: January 01, 2012, 06:16:43 PM »
^^ Gill, if it can just be "the universe" then why do you make the distinction between theists and atheists?

Both believe in the universe.  You've just negated your original reason for trusting theists in government more than atheists in government.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #280 on: January 01, 2012, 06:21:05 PM »
^^ Gill, if it can just be "the universe" then why do you make the distinction between theists and atheists?

Both believe in the universe.  You've just negated your original reason for trusting theists in government more than atheists in government.

Well, if the atheist believes that the universe endowed the citizens certain natural-rights, which cannot be taken by anyone, then I would trust an atheist I suppose as a government leader.

But, if the atheist does not see the universe endowing the citizens those rights,  that they are given by the government officials, that would be a problem.

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #281 on: January 01, 2012, 06:26:41 PM »
Those are not the only two options.

But anyway, what about, say, Christians who don't believe that their god endows anyone with rights?  Where do they sit with you?
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Offline rickymooston

Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #282 on: January 01, 2012, 06:31:55 PM »
Most liberal democrats support big government programs and regulations.

Which regulations do you specifically1 oppose?
-- I'm in favor of some anti-trust regulations
-- I'm in favor of regulating the banking industry. After years of deregulation, some people looking to make
a big buck did.
-- I'm in favor of safety based food inspection regulations
-- I'm in favor of safety based regulations on fire arms, tobacco and drugs
-- I'm in favor of safety based industry specific regulations; e.g., practices by say mines and factories to
ensure workers are safe
-- I'm in favor of regulations of dangerous goods such as pollutants and radioactive materials
-- I'm in favor of trading regulations to prevent investment fraud
-- I'm in favor of driving regulations
-- I'm in favor of some basic pollution control regulations such as requiring all cars to have certain features
-- I'm in favor of hunting and fishing regulations to prevent depletion of wild life stock
Which government services do you oppose?
-- I think public education is a necessity. The system in place isn't perfect
-- I think some level of social assistance may be necessary in some cases where we don't want people to die
-- I think some level of medicare may be necessary in some cases where we don't want people to die
-- think the coast guard has a role
-- think the military has a role
-- think we need border protection
-- we need various levels of policing
-- probably its beneficial to have bodies that deal with trade with other countries...
Which isn't the definition of socialism.

Which defintion of socialism are you working from Omen? Do you consider socialism a good, bad or indifferent thing? I consider it a scale but as a general principle to involve transfer of wealth from the wealthy to the collective.

As I understand it, our system has elements of socialism (distribution of wealth by the state) and elements of capitalism (private ownership).

Being socialist isn't in my opinion necessarily good or bad. It goes without saying that "socialistic" doesn't mean Stalin's Russia.

1- I'm a liberal "democrat" but being Canadian am not a member of the democratic party.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #283 on: January 01, 2012, 06:33:19 PM »
Those are not the only two options.

But anyway, what about, say, Christians who don't believe that their god endows anyone with rights?  Where do they sit with you?

I certainly wouldn't want them to be a government leader, that's for sure. 

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #284 on: January 01, 2012, 06:39:22 PM »
So why did you start off by saying that you'd trust Christians more than atheists in government, if there's no difference between their respect for rights?
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #285 on: January 01, 2012, 06:40:29 PM »
Most liberal democrats support big government programs and regulations.

Which regulations do you specifically1 oppose?

Yes, there's many good programs, but overall, there needs to be cutting of many and a re-organization of the bigger ones  (considering the debt)
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 06:46:47 PM by Gill »

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #286 on: January 01, 2012, 06:43:56 PM »
So why did you start off by saying that you'd trust Christians more than atheists in government, if there's no difference between their respect for rights?
  I can't say that every individual who is an atheist or Christian will all share the same ideas in their group when it comes to rights.  But I think in general, my impression was there is a difference.

And apparently, that impression has be somewhat strengthened considering there have been many atheists here saying it makes no difference if the country declares natural or god-given rights.

Offline rickymooston

Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #287 on: January 01, 2012, 06:48:43 PM »
But I think in general, my impression was there is a difference.

Show an example where American atheists advocated less rights than American Christians?

Note: using communists as an example is cheating because most American atheists are not communists.
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Offline rickymooston

Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #288 on: January 01, 2012, 06:50:56 PM »
Yes, there's many good programs, but overall, there needs to be cutting of many and a re-organization of the bigger ones  (considering the debt)

Ah, we may make a liberal democrat of you yet.  ;)

You are therefore interested perhaps in wasteful spending?
"i had learn to focus i what i could do rather what i couldn't do", Rick Hansen when asked about getting a disabling spinal cord injury at 15. He continues to raise money for spinal cord research and inspire peoople to "make a difference". He doesnt preach any religion.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #289 on: January 01, 2012, 06:55:00 PM »
But I think in general, my impression was there is a difference.

Show an example where American atheists advocated less rights than American Christians?

Note: using communists as an example is cheating because most American atheists are not communists.

That's a hard question because I'm not too familiar with many specific people's spiritual beliefs, if any.

My initial opinion, of trusting a christian more than an atheist in government, was based on the assumption that the atheist was less likely to recognize the concept that people have innate rights, natural, or 'god-given' rights, independent of what the government gives them.

Maybe this is a unrealistic assumption, but I have to say, so far, I'm seen several people on here that have confirmed it, so I'm not giving up that assumption yet.