Author Topic: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century  (Read 17972 times)

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Offline jetson

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #232 on: January 01, 2012, 11:36:52 AM »

Most liberal democrats are socialist.


bwa ha ha ha ha ha... :o

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #233 on: January 01, 2012, 11:39:24 AM »
lol, maybe there are people that way, but that will never happen.

Thanks to the atheists it won't.

Most liberal democrats are socialist.

You do know that FOX News is about as reliable as my farts, right? Actually, it's LESS reliable than my farts. At least you have proof that they came out of MY ass. With FOX News you never know whose ass their "facts" came out of.

No, I never did try to argue that the USA is 'more free' than anyone.  I brought up the point of the importance of defining sovereignty to the citizens over government officials to support freedom.

You mean like... in a democracy? This was the opposite of what you were arguing, actually. You said we should define sovereignty to a "higher authority" over the citizens and governments officials to support freedom, like in a theocracy.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #234 on: January 01, 2012, 11:40:41 AM »
It's not funny jetson, it's the truth.  Most liberal democrats support big government programs and regulations.  Their philosophy is that the government knows best for you.   The conservative on the other hand, starts with the premise of the founders, which is that the individual knows best for himself.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #235 on: January 01, 2012, 11:40:47 AM »

Most liberal democrats are socialist.


bwa ha ha ha ha ha... :o

Well he is right...if you compare it to the  alternative in the US. By worldwide 1rst world standards....well, no.
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Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #236 on: January 01, 2012, 11:41:07 AM »
I wasn't aware that a socialist president had ever been in the White House. I always thought it was either Republican or Democrat. Please show me these socialist leaders.
Any politician who doesn't coddle the ultra rich of the American aristocracy is considered 'socialist' by many in the U.S. :(
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #237 on: January 01, 2012, 11:44:35 AM »
lol, maybe there are people that way, but that will never happen.

Thanks to the atheists it won't.

Eh, no.  The majority of people in the USA are not atheist, yet are still against a theocracy.

Most liberal democrats are socialist.
Quote
You do know that FOX News is about as reliable as my farts, right? Actually, it's LESS reliable than my farts. At least you have proof that they came out of MY ass. With FOX News you never know whose ass their "facts" came out of.

What does FOX news have to do with anything?  I don't get all my information about government from them.   I read about the history of this country and the different political philosophies.

No, I never did try to argue that the USA is 'more free' than anyone.  I brought up the point of the importance of defining sovereignty to the citizens over government officials to support freedom.
Quote
You mean like... in a democracy? This was the opposite of what you were arguing, actually. You said we should define sovereignty to a "higher authority" over the citizens and governments officials to support freedom, like in a theocracy.

No,  I wasn't, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself.   

Offline Omen

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #238 on: January 01, 2012, 11:46:47 AM »
It's not funny jetson, it's the truth.  Most liberal democrats support big government programs and regulations.

Which isn't the definition of socialism.

Quote
The conservative on the other hand, starts with the premise of the founders, which is that the individual knows best for himself.

Which contradicts what conservatives actually do; use the government to encroach on the personal lives of individual citizens by banning women's medical health, sex education, abortion, homosexual rights, and nothing but favor large corporate interest with government regulation destroying economic competition as well as burdening a populace with the economic hardships.
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Offline jetson

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #239 on: January 01, 2012, 11:48:35 AM »
It's not funny jetson, it's the truth.  Most liberal democrats support big government programs and regulations.  Their philosophy is that the government knows best for you.   The conservative on the other hand, starts with the premise of the founders, which is that the individual knows best for himself.

No it's not funny.  It's completely sad that so many Americans would rather have a country where everyone is "on their own", and no social programs existed at all.  The philosophy that you describe is not what you think it is, it's just a reflection of the bigotry towards any form of helping out people in need.  After all, every American citizen has the same opportunity, so why can't they get on their feet and do something, instead of leeching off of social programs?

While it is certainly true that there is a distinction in the approach of liberal versus conservative views, neither of those views has more power than the other, and neither gets to call the shots in our democracy.

This is off-topic, but I had to say something, because your statement is simply laughable.

It's the same thing as me claiming that most conservative republicans want a theocracy...wait?

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #240 on: January 01, 2012, 11:50:51 AM »
The conservative on the other hand, starts with the premise of the founders, which is that the individual knows best for himself.

Quote
Eligibility to vote for representatives would be based on each state's rules for voting on the state legislature's lower house. For example, the 1777 New York State Constitution required that a man have considerable wealth to be able to vote for the state Assembly - he had to pay taxes as well as own property worth at least 20 pounds or pay an annual rent of 2 pounds. Ten of the original 13 states had property and/or tax requirements when the U.S. Constitution came into effect.
From here- http://www1.cuny.edu/portal_ur/content/voting_cal/the_constitution.html

Most individuals in the various States weren't allowed to vote because the wealthy thought they knew what was best for them.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #241 on: January 01, 2012, 11:51:59 AM »
It's not funny jetson, it's the truth.  Most liberal democrats support big government programs and regulations.

Which isn't the definition of socialism.

It's directed towards that philosophy.

Quote
The conservative on the other hand, starts with the premise of the founders, which is that the individual knows best for himself.
Quote
Which contradicts what conservatives actually do; use the government to encroach on the personal lives of individual citizens by banning women's medical health, sex education, abortion, homosexual rights, and nothing but favor large corporate interest with government regulation destroying economic competition as well as burdening a populace with the economic hardships.

Well you're just targeting one particular philosophical group,  Social Conservatism.   Conservatism in general,  is for less government and more personal freedom.   So as far as your comment about favoring government regulation, that would be a socialist or liberal philosophy, not conservative.

Offline Omen

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #242 on: January 01, 2012, 11:52:13 AM »
What does FOX news have to do with anything?  I don't get all my information about government from them.   I read about the history of this country and the different political philosophies.

Your positions are informed by stereotypical uses of rhetoric that defies the notion that you actually know the definition or meaning of the terms themselves, which is the normal for fox news.
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Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #243 on: January 01, 2012, 11:55:01 AM »
The philosophy that you describe is not what you think it is, it's just a reflection of the bigotry towards any form of helping out people in need.

Wouldn't it ironically be an ANTI-christian philosophy at that?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #244 on: January 01, 2012, 11:55:26 AM »
Eh, no.  The majority of people in the USA are not atheist, yet are still against a theocracy.

And the atheists compose 95% of the "smart people" in the USA. Thanks to rational debate, the "moderates" are against the theocracy.
Or maybe not, I really don't give a shit. The point is that the theists are always the ones trying to take away other people's rights.

What does FOX news have to do with anything?

They have a reputation for lying about everything when it suits them and being the republican party's bitch.

I don't get all my information about government from them.

You shouldn't get ANY information from them, because it's not information. Would you get information about particle physics from a small child who just learned how to speak? Obviously not; although the child can make up a lot of things about particle physics, they won't know what the fuck they're talking about. Same thing with FOX News.

I read about the history of this country and the different political philosophies.

Apparently you didn't read enough, judging from your previous statement about the USA being "more free" than Frank's country, even though you know nothing about his country.

No,  I wasn't, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself lying.   

I'm also getting tired of your lies. At first they were amusing, but now... They're just a minor inconvenience.
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Offline Omen

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #245 on: January 01, 2012, 11:57:07 AM »
Which isn't the definition of socialism.

It's directed towards that philosophy.

If you can't get the definition correct, you can't then insist its directed towards that philosophy.  You're reducing the qualification for 'socialism' to a degree where any existence of functional government would be considered 'socialist'.

Quote
Well you're just targeting one particular philosophical group,  Social Conservatism.   Conservatism in general,  is for less government and more personal freedom.   So as far as your comment about favoring government regulation, that would be a socialist or liberal philosophy, not conservative.

Begging the question, what liberal socialist philosophy?

As I pointed above you've reduced the meaning of socialism to a vague qualification so stupid that when someone points it out in political groups in opposition to your fantasized 'socialist liberal' you then redefine those political parties under 'socialist liberal'.  The qualification of socialism is a pleaded qualifier that carries no self evident explanation, its being used to identify things you do not like but without the correct usage of the term itself.  You then deny it when it applies to your own examples as well as falling back on making the pleaded qualification again so vague that it can apply to the very existence of government itself.  That's the problem with fallacies related to pleading, you lose all ability to coherently explain anything.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #246 on: January 01, 2012, 12:01:58 PM »
Eh, no.  The majority of people in the USA are not atheist, yet are still against a theocracy.

And the atheists compose 95% of the "smart people" in the USA. Thanks to rational debate, the "moderates" are against the theocracy.
Or maybe not, I really don't give a shit. The point is that the theists are always the ones trying to take away other people's rights.


Atheist are the smartest people in the country? lol.  I can't even justify an answer to that.

I don't get all my information about government from them.
Quote
You shouldn't get ANY information from them, because it's not information. Would you get information about particle physics from a small child who just learned how to speak? Obviously not; although the child can make up a lot of things about particle physics, they won't know what the fuck they're talking about. Same thing with FOX News.

Whatever, all the news outlets have political bias.   So what?  You watch NBC you're getting a liberal bias. 


No,  I wasn't, but I'm getting tired of repeating myself lying.   
Quote
I'm also getting tired of your lies. At first they were amusing, but now... They're just a minor inconvenience.

Nope, never lied. And I'm getting tired of people who say that, so i'm don't interacting with you, not worth my time.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #247 on: January 01, 2012, 12:05:07 PM »
Which isn't the definition of socialism.

It's directed towards that philosophy.

If you can't get the definition correct, you can't then insist its directed towards that philosophy.  You're reducing the qualification for 'socialism' to a degree where any existence of functional government would be considered 'socialist'.

Quote
Well you're just targeting one particular philosophical group,  Social Conservatism.   Conservatism in general,  is for less government and more personal freedom.   So as far as your comment about favoring government regulation, that would be a socialist or liberal philosophy, not conservative.

Begging the question, what liberal socialist philosophy?

As I pointed above you've reduced the meaning of socialism to a vague qualification so stupid that when someone points it out in political groups in opposition to your fantasized 'socialist liberal' you then redefine those political parties under 'socialist liberal'.  The qualification of socialism is a pleaded qualifier that carries no self evident explanation, its being used to identify things you do not like but without the correct usage of the term itself.  You then deny it when it applies to your own examples as well as falling back on making the pleaded qualification again so vague that it can apply to the very existence of government itself.  That's the problem with fallacies related to pleading, you lose all ability to coherently explain anything.

You're just over analyzing what I said.   I made a general statement that liberal philosophies are socialist.   I could break it down to each individual issue and say they are less socialist on this or that, but why,  most people don't need such an analysis to understand what I'm talking about.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #248 on: January 01, 2012, 12:07:14 PM »
It's not funny jetson, it's the truth.  Most liberal democrats support big government programs and regulations.  Their philosophy is that the government knows best for you.   The conservative on the other hand, starts with the premise of the founders, which is that the individual knows best for himself.

No it's not funny.  It's completely sad that so many Americans would rather have a country where everyone is "on their own", and no social programs existed at all.  The philosophy that you describe is not what you think it is, it's just a reflection of the bigotry towards any form of helping out people in need.  After all, every American citizen has the same opportunity, so why can't they get on their feet and do something, instead of leeching off of social programs?

While it is certainly true that there is a distinction in the approach of liberal versus conservative views, neither of those views has more power than the other, and neither gets to call the shots in our democracy.

This is off-topic, but I had to say something, because your statement is simply laughable.

It's the same thing as me claiming that most conservative republicans want a theocracy...wait?

No, I don't think anyone, even conservative is for zero social programs.   They are just for less, or reforming one's which aren't working, in general.

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #249 on: January 01, 2012, 12:07:25 PM »
Atheist are the smartest people in the country? lol.  I can't even justify an answer to that.

Unless you're gonna make stuff up or agree, you CAN'T answer that.

Whatever, all the news outlets have political bias.   So what?  You watch NBC you're getting a liberal bias.

Assuming that to be true; no respectable news outlet lies about the news themselves. FOX News does. What does that tell you?

Nope, never lied.

Of course not... I must've misread where you said something along the lines of "recognizing a higher authority assures god-given freedoms". What you actually meant is what we've all been saying - people are the highest authority. How stupid of me. &)
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #250 on: January 01, 2012, 12:10:03 PM »
Nope, never lied.

Of course not... I must've misread where you said something along the lines of "recognizing a higher authority assures god-given freedoms". What you actually meant is what we've all been saying - people are the highest authority. How stupid of me. &)

That's your own interpretation of what I said, that you think it's inconsistent.  See, a lie, is when a person intentionally tries to deceive someone, which I have never done here.

Offline Omen

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #251 on: January 01, 2012, 12:12:09 PM »
Begging the question, what liberal socialist philosophy?

As I pointed above you've reduced the meaning of socialism to a vague qualification so stupid that when someone points it out in political groups in opposition to your fantasized 'socialist liberal' you then redefine those political parties under 'socialist liberal'.  The qualification of socialism is a pleaded qualifier that carries no self evident explanation, its being used to identify things you do not like but without the correct usage of the term itself.  You then deny it when it applies to your own examples as well as falling back on making the pleaded qualification again so vague that it can apply to the very existence of government itself.  That's the problem with fallacies related to pleading, you lose all ability to coherently explain anything.

You're just over analyzing what I said.

Dismissive pleading.

Quote
  I made a general statement that liberal philosophies are socialist.

That is a claim, you're claim misuses the definition for socialism and does not have any applicable examples that meet that literal definition.   You are using the label of 'socialism' as a pejorative, not really intended to mean or be an applicable use to mean anything useful.

Socialism is an economic system where the state actually owns economic production/management.  The regulation of industry is not the ownership of industry, there is no 'true' example of total capitalism on this planet ( with maybe the exception of Hong Kong before the turn over to China in 97 ) and any government imposes regulation of industry out of necessity, so either all governments are socialist using you're horrifically stupid qualification or no government is capable of being capitalist and capitalism is interchangeable with anarchy.

Quote
   I could break it down to each individual issue and say they are less socialist on this or that, but why,  most people don't need such an analysis to understand what I'm talking about.

Actually, for your claim to have any rational application to reality you're going to have to break it all down.  You can drop the condescending dismissive crap too. -1 for that.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #252 on: January 01, 2012, 12:17:29 PM »

Quote
  I made a general statement that liberal philosophies are socialist.

Socialism is an economic system where the state actually owns economic production/management. 

Right.  And so if a liberal is usually for large government programs, institutions, and control of otherwise private industry, then they are promoting socialist ideas.   So I don't see the confusion really.

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #253 on: January 01, 2012, 12:20:30 PM »
That's your own interpretation of what I said, that you think it's inconsistent.  See, a lie, is when a person intentionally tries to deceive someone, which I have never done here.

=D
I knew you couldn't keep yourself from talking to me. Next thing you know you'll be proposing. ;)

Seriously though, explain this:
I'd have a problem with anyone who doesn't recognize a higher authority than himself, being a leader of the country.   I live in the u.s.a., so if an atheist recognizes 'natural given rights' , instead of 'god given rights',  I suppose then they would be recognizing a higher authority.   But,  I just see this to be less likely in other parts of the world.

And so you have some people in my country who think; 'why do we need god in the constitution, etc.'.  Well, to prevent tyranny you have to start with the premise that there is an authority greater than any elected official, that's why......

Not only do you claim that there is an authority greater than any elected official (which I think we can all agree with), you claim that it's a deity, not people (this is where we will always disagree). So, am I "over analyzing" like Omen? Or are you lying?
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #254 on: January 01, 2012, 12:24:05 PM »
I'd have a problem with anyone who doesn't recognize a higher authority than himself, being a leader of the country.   I live in the u.s.a., so if an atheist recognizes 'natural given rights' , instead of 'god given rights',  I suppose then they would be recognizing a higher authority.   But,  I just see this to be less likely in other parts of the world.

And so you have some people in my country who think; 'why do we need god in the constitution, etc.'.  Well, to prevent tyranny you have to start with the premise that there is an authority greater than any elected official, that's why......
Quote

Not only do you claim that there is an authority greater than any elected official (which I think we can all agree with), you claim that it's a deity, not people (this is where we will always disagree). So, am I "over analyzing" like Omen? Or are you lying?

As I said in another post,  one doesn't have to claim it's a deity for the law to still work.   One could say people have 'natural-given' rights.   It's just the point of trying to take the authority off any elected official which is why such a concept of 'god' was introduced in the documents.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 12:25:44 PM by Gill »

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #255 on: January 01, 2012, 12:26:48 PM »
As I said in another post,  one doesn't have to claim it's a deity for the law to still work.   One could say people have 'natural-given' rights. It's just the point of trying to take the authority off any elected official which is why such a concept of 'god' was introduced in the documents.

The point is that you claimed that the concept of a higher authority is necessary. One higher than people. Now you said you didn't say that.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Omen

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #256 on: January 01, 2012, 12:27:51 PM »

Quote
  I made a general statement that liberal philosophies are socialist.

Socialism is an economic system where the state actually owns economic production/management. 

Right.  And so if a liberal is usually for large government programs, institutions, and control of otherwise private industry, then they are promoting socialist ideas.   So I don't see the confusion really.

None of which falls into the definition of an economic system where the state actually owns economic production/management.

The confusion is nested in your bias.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #257 on: January 01, 2012, 12:31:07 PM »
As I said in another post,  one doesn't have to claim it's a deity for the law to still work.   One could say people have 'natural-given' rights. It's just the point of trying to take the authority off any elected official which is why such a concept of 'god' was introduced in the documents.

The point is that you claimed that the concept of a higher authority is necessary. One higher than people. Now you said you didn't say that.

I don't see why that higher authority couldn't be considered 'Nature', in place of 'Creator', in the documents and still work.   Call them 'natural-rights', instead of 'god-given', fine.   I think god-given sounds more fundamental than 'natural', which is probably why it was originally defined in such a way. 

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #258 on: January 01, 2012, 12:32:55 PM »

Quote
  I made a general statement that liberal philosophies are socialist.

Socialism is an economic system where the state actually owns economic production/management. 

Right.  And so if a liberal is usually for large government programs, institutions, and control of otherwise private industry, then they are promoting socialist ideas.   So I don't see the confusion really.

None of which falls into the definition of an economic system where the state actually owns economic production/management.

The confusion is nested in your bias.

Government run healthcare.  Is that not a socialist concept, since the government is owning and controlling an otherwise private industry?  And, of course, supported by most liberals.   One example of many....

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #259 on: January 01, 2012, 12:33:58 PM »
I don't see why that higher authority couldn't be considered 'Nature', in place of 'Creator', in the documents and still work.   Call them 'natural-rights', instead of 'god-given', fine.   I think god-given sounds more fundamental than 'natural', which is probably why it was originally defined in such a way. 

You keep avoiding the issue, which is: you lied for the umpteenth time and I showed it to you beyond reasonable doubt. The only other option is that you realized you were wrong.
Either way, a retraction would prove that you have some degree of intellectual honesty.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #260 on: January 01, 2012, 12:36:33 PM »
I don't see why that higher authority couldn't be considered 'Nature', in place of 'Creator', in the documents and still work.   Call them 'natural-rights', instead of 'god-given', fine.   I think god-given sounds more fundamental than 'natural', which is probably why it was originally defined in such a way. 

You keep avoiding the issue, which is: you lied for the umpteenth time and I showed it to you beyond reasonable doubt. The only other option is that you realized you were wrong.
Either way, a retraction would prove that you have some degree of intellectual honesty.

No, you just misinterpret what I've said.  If you read back through the topic, I mentioned one could call 'god-given' rights as 'natural-rights'  to serve the same purpose,  many times.