Author Topic: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century  (Read 19542 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #203 on: December 31, 2011, 05:14:29 PM »
<snip>

Try again, only this time don't ignore the part about theocracies.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #204 on: December 31, 2011, 05:28:48 PM »
What about theocracies?, I don't believe in them, the founders of the usa wanted to avoid one.  But, they also realized that in order to prevent tyranny, they had to divide powers, and define god-given rights.   It has nothing to do with forcing religion of people, and everything to do with lessening any single government official's power over citizens.

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #205 on: December 31, 2011, 05:32:57 PM »
Theocracies were founded on the principles of a single religion (and, before you complain that christianity wasn't one of these, guess again and do some research). Yet people had little to no rights, and most of the rights people didn't have were those you consider to be "god-given".
So, either they aren't "god-given", or recognizing a higher authority doesn't mean shit, or recognizing a higher authority actually makes things worse. Pick one. I know which one is true. Do you?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #206 on: December 31, 2011, 05:36:15 PM »
  So you think a country which declares no god-given rights, or 'natural-rights' if you prefer,  would make no difference?   Ok, so then you disagree then with all of the founders of the usa.  That, they must of had no conception of what they were doing or why, when they wrote such rights into the founding documents?

Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #207 on: December 31, 2011, 05:40:33 PM »
That DOMA law defines at the federal level what marriage is, but certainly doesn't forbid one from obtaining a marriage licence at the state level, if that state allows it, so I'd say that it is primarily still a state issue.

And you would be very wrong. Every other state issued marriage licence is legally recognized in every other state, in effect, making them national marriage licences. DOMA forbids such recognition thus forbidding national gay marriage licences.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #208 on: December 31, 2011, 05:42:29 PM »
Ok, so there's some individuals which oppose gay marriage, and so what's the main point?

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #209 on: December 31, 2011, 05:52:23 PM »
  So you think a country which declares no god-given rights, or 'natural-rights' if you prefer,  would make no difference?

I didn't say that. I said that theocracies were truly founded on the idea of god-given rights and yet almost nobody actually had any rights.

Ok, so then you disagree then with all of the founders of the usa.

From Wikipedia:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

So yes, I disagree with them. People are not endowed by anything with those rights, nor are they created.
The right to life isn't even an actual right, it's merely the ability to survive along with dumb luck. The other two can only exist if other people cooperate. Hence, not "god-given" or "natural-given".

That, they must of had no conception of what they were doing or why, when they wrote such rights into the founding documents?

Those documents were written over 200 years ago. The founders' bones are probably dust by now.
I have not studied the history of the USA (at least not extensively), so I don't know any of this.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #210 on: December 31, 2011, 08:42:05 PM »
  So you think a country which declares no god-given rights, or 'natural-rights' if you prefer,  would make no difference?   Ok, so then you disagree then with all of the founders of the usa.  That, they must of had no conception of what they were doing or why, when they wrote such rights into the founding documents?

Well since I don't live in America I would disagree with these all knowing founders of yours. I live in the UK and I have just as much practicle freedom as you do. In fact I would argue that I actually have more freedom than you do.

Rights grow over millenia. America came late into the world so you had the 1700 years of english common law to fall back on. What? Did you think these founding fathers came up with all that stuff themselves? I think not. You've heard of the Magna Carta? Well two clauses from Magna Carta became the fifth and sixth amendments of the American Constitution.

Remember, the greeks invented democracy 3000 years ago. No christian god then.

One more thing I would point out. There are no Christian countries on this planet. There are catholic countries and there are protestant countries. If you wish to have a state religion it would have to be one of those two. Of course choosing either would alienate vast swathes of your population, unless you chose Islam which would alienate everybody.

It's far to late for America to have a state religion. It doesn't matter what the founding fathers wanted. America is what it is and for anyone to want their religion to become the official state religion would be looking for trouble in a country were the majority of people own at least one gun.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #211 on: December 31, 2011, 08:45:21 PM »
God doesn't exist to judge anybody. All those people are dead and I doubt it's much comfort to them or their loved ones that god is judging them.

So why waste your time discussing and debating this stuff?  Eat, drink, and be merry!  Go have yourself a party instead of hanging out with a bunch of dead-end, no-real-purpose-in-life accidental blobs of flesh.

Because it annoys rapture fruit loops like you. I also think our successes scare you. Atheism has made many inroads in America and I'm sure it will make many more. A few more years and it will be as secular as europe is. You should think yourself lucky. Here you can post as much as you like but I've tried posting at religious boards. I'm lucky to make it to 3 posts before I'm banned. So much for free speech.

BTW. Which of those conservative no hopers do you intend to vote for next year. Serial Adulterer Gingrich appears to be flavour of the month. What about Romney. Although he is a mormon. Would a vote for him send you to hell?

Fruit loops?  Ad hominem attacks instead of meaningful dialogue doesn't help your cause, it demonstrates a lack of anything intelligent to say.

Maybe you get banned for your insults and not your ideas.  Ever think about that?  You should.  Especially if you are posting your acidic tirades in "family-friendly forums".

Is the only reason you hang out in the forum is so that you might annoy someone?  Get a life, Frank.  There are much nobler pursuits in life.  Like - Do some actual research so the you will have something to add to a discussion instead of only bringing insults to the table.

From my vantage point, America is pretty much God-of-the-Bible-less.  Not the same as godless, as there are many "Gods" in America but the ones that most people profess don't line up with the one described in the Bible.  Maybe it will be a good thing for America to be like Europe.  I think that many of the phonies in church will jump ship and then you all will know that there have been those who may have professed to be believers but were not.  The Church in America will be much purer, like the ones in China, N. Korea, Iran, and Indonesia, if we undergo some persecution, which I am sure you and many of your friends in this forum are all for as well.  I'm ok with that, if it will mean that many of you will see that there really are True Believers and maybe then some of you will believe as well.

I haven't made up my mind, but I am thinking of either Santorum, Paul, or Bachmann.

No, I can't lose my salvation even if I vote for Obama.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #212 on: December 31, 2011, 09:05:44 PM »
Those dictators you mentioned were not motivated by a lack of belief in a god. They were motivated by active belief in certain ideologies. These ideologies happened to be non-religious... and I denounce them as much as I denounce religious ideologies.

"Stalin followed the position adopted by Lenin that religion was an opiate that needed to be removed in order to construct the ideal communist society. To this end, his government promoted atheism through special atheistic education in schools, massive amounts of anti-religious propaganda, the antireligious work of public institutions (especially the Society of the Godless), discriminatory laws, and also a terror campaign against religious believers. By the late 1930s it had become dangerous to be publicly associated with religion.[86]
Stalin's role in the fortunes of the Russian Orthodox Church is complex. Continuous persecution in the 1930s resulted in its near-extinction as a public institution: by 1939, active parishes numbered in the low hundreds (down from 54,000 in 1917), many churches had been leveled, and tens of thousands of priests, monks and nuns were persecuted and killed. Over 100,000 were shot during the purges of 1937–1938.[87] During World War II, the Church was allowed a revival as a patriotic organization, and thousands of parishes were reactivated until a further round of suppression in Khrushchev's time. The Russian Orthodox Church Synod's recognition of the Soviet government and of Stalin personally led to a schism with the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia.
Just days before Stalin's death, certain religious sects were outlawed and persecuted. Many religions popular in the ethnic regions of the Soviet Union including the Roman Catholic Church (including the Eastern Catholic Churches), Baptists, Islam, Buddhism, Judaism, etc. underwent ordeals similar to the Orthodox churches in other parts: thousands of monks were persecuted, and hundreds of churches, synagogues, mosques, temples, sacred monuments, monasteries and other religious buildings were razed."  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

Stalin is quoted as saying "You know, they are fooling us, there is no God...all this talk about God is sheer nonsense" in E. Yaroslavsky, Landmarks in the Life of Stalin, Foreign Languages Publishing House, Moscow 1940
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline natlegend

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #213 on: December 31, 2011, 09:07:34 PM »
Gill, does the homosexual community have a 'natural right' to get married? If not, why not?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #214 on: December 31, 2011, 09:11:19 PM »
From the video: "They forgot the instructions on how to live on Earth."
Indeed.

Mentally I replaced "spiritually" with "emotionally" when he was talking about the land/nature and was fine with it.

For all the claims by Xian Europeans that the indigenous people of North America and their beliefs were "primitive" – which group is okay with incorporating DNA into their worldview and accepting apes as cousins (and recognizing the idea they are cousins, not ancestors), Xians or the supposed "primitives"?

While they are religious, I would rather that anyone who can't be atheist change their religion to a nature worship type like the Hopi and most (all?) other native Americans.

Well, I don't represent any tribe, or speak for them, but I have some knowledge of their ways from my many meetings with various tribal members during my time as a trader. I wouldn't call them nature worshipers, although most do speak about living in "right relationship" with the earth and all its creatures, flying, walking, swimming or crawling. Something you might hear Floyd Red Crow Westerman say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Red_Crow_Westerman


Most Native American Indians have a creation story and a single creator godwhoops! flood story. Khangi Duta, in the video provided by 12 monkeys, used the word Tunkansilla or grandfather for god. Sometimes referred to as Tunkansilla Wankan Tanka. Grandfather Great Mystery.

Here is the Lakota creation story from a chapter of a book I wrote. I believe I heard this version (re-written in my own words) from LAme Deer or Leonard Crow Dog in the early 70's. It's probably on the web somewhere.

Paul cut Rhonda off mid-sentence. “Please Rhonda, I was raised Southern Baptist and I am well aware of the Hebrew creation story. In the beginning there was this void. Then about six thousand years ago God created the heavens and the earth, then the people, then the animals. And did all this in 6 days and then rested. God put Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden with a Tree of Life and a Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Later God destroyed the people with a great flood and Yada, yada, yada.”

“Yes, but you may find this interesting  about the Lakota and Maori.” “I doubt it. If you’ve heard one creation myth, you’ve heard them all. But O.K., shoot.”

Rhonda continued on, telling Paul about the Lakota creation story. According to Lame Deer, a very long time ago, when the world was newly made, Unktehi the water monster fought against the people causing a great flood. The Great Spirit, Wakan Tanka, was angry with the people. He let the water monster win because he wanted to make a better human being.

Everything was flooded except a hill next to the sacred red pipestone quarry. The people climbed up top to escape the rising waters. The water washed over the hill and  killed everyone. The blood congealed making a big  red pool which turned into the pipestone quarry. The chanupa, or sacred pipe was made of the red rock. Its bowl is the blood of the ancestors, the  stem is their backbone and the smoke is their breath.

Unktehi, was also turned to stone. Wankan Tanka punished her for making the flood. Her back forms a ridge, and you can see her vertebrae today in the Blacks Hills.

One beautiful girl survived when Wanblee Galeshka, a great eagle swept down and she grabbed his feet. She hung on, and he carried her to the top of a tall tree at the top of the Black Hills. The only place not covered with water.

Wanblee kept the girl with him and she became his wife. She became pregnant and had twins, a boy and a girl.  When the waters subsided, the eagle took the woman and the children down to the earth and told them to become a great nation which is now called the Lakota.

The nation came from the children of the boy and the girl, and so all Lakota are descendants of the eagle, the wisest of all birds- the messenger of Wakan Tanka and the greatest warrior.

Here it is:

http://www.webpanda.com/There/uot_someSiouxLegends.htm
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 09:43:48 PM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #215 on: December 31, 2011, 09:15:27 PM »
God doesn't exist to judge anybody. All those people are dead and I doubt it's much comfort to them or their loved ones that god is judging them.

So why waste your time discussing and debating this stuff?  Eat, drink, and be merry!  Go have yourself a party instead of hanging out with a bunch of dead-end, no-real-purpose-in-life accidental blobs of flesh.

Because it annoys rapture fruit loops like you. I also think our successes scare you. Atheism has made many inroads in America and I'm sure it will make many more. A few more years and it will be as secular as europe is. You should think yourself lucky. Here you can post as much as you like but I've tried posting at religious boards. I'm lucky to make it to 3 posts before I'm banned. So much for free speech.

BTW. Which of those conservative no hopers do you intend to vote for next year. Serial Adulterer Gingrich appears to be flavour of the month. What about Romney. Although he is a mormon. Would a vote for him send you to hell?

Fruit loops?  Ad hominem attacks instead of meaningful dialogue doesn't help your cause, it demonstrates a lack of anything intelligent to say.

Maybe you get banned for your insults and not your ideas.  Ever think about that?  You should.  Especially if you are posting your acidic tirades in "family-friendly forums".

Is the only reason you hang out in the forum is so that you might annoy someone?  Get a life, Frank.  There are much nobler pursuits in life.  Like - Do some actual research so the you will have something to add to a discussion instead of only bringing insults to the table.

From my vantage point, America is pretty much God-of-the-Bible-less.  Not the same as godless, as there are many "Gods" in America but the ones that most people profess don't line up with the one described in the Bible.  Maybe it will be a good thing for America to be like Europe.  I think that many of the phonies in church will jump ship and then you all will know that there have been those who may have professed to be believers but were not.  The Church in America will be much purer, like the ones in China, N. Korea, Iran, and Indonesia, if we undergo some persecution, which I am sure you and many of your friends in this forum are all for as well.  I'm ok with that, if it will mean that many of you will see that there really are True Believers and maybe then some of you will believe as well.

I haven't made up my mind, but I am thinking of either Santorum, Paul, or Bachmann.

No, I can't lose my salvation even if I vote for Obama.

Do you ever listen to yourself?
If you had been born in a muslim country you'd be busy trying to convince me of the joys of islam. If you had been born in ancient Egypt Ra would be the greatest god ever with Horus a close second. Born in India a hindu or sikh and you would be swimming in the Ganges every year. In Israel you'd be a jew with ringlets hanging from your head. Do you get what I'm saying here? Do you catch my drift?

You have been born in an ostensibly christian society so you have gone with the flow. Yet the god you have chosen has no more validity than the others I have mentioned. They all offer "salvation" if only you believe. If I had been born in any of the places I have mentioned I would still be an atheist because my rationality and commonsense would demand it.

See the picture below? Thats America to scale if it was on Saturn. Where are you on that tiny little speck of a country that god just loves soooooo much and what makes you think that any being as powerful as a god would be the least bit interested in the life if a speck that lives on a speck? and more importantly would want that speck anywhere near them after they have lived out their piffling, boring, blink of an eye life?

Salvation? For what?

"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #216 on: December 31, 2011, 09:17:25 PM »
You have yet to show that Stalin or any of the others are athiests and that they got people to kill for them for supposedly athiest reasons. All you have done is pick leaders who have slaughtered millions who don't have a clear theist connection - big deal. I would expect there to be quite a few through-out history. While far too many millions have died for theist reasons, there are millions who died for plenty of other reasons. (No, I don't have names and numbers.)

"Stalinism refers to the ideology that Joseph Stalin conceived and implemented in the Soviet Union, and is generally considered a branch of Marxist–Leninist ideology..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin

"Marx on religion
See also: Opium of the People
Karl Marx's religious views have been the subject of much interpretation. He famously stated in Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right that
     'Religious distress is at the same time the expression of real distress and the protest against real distress. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions.[2][unreliable source?]'

The esoteric nature of the quote has led to some confusion among historians, who are divided as to whether Marx was speaking in favor of or against organized religion. Though Marx does state that religion is "the heart of a heartless world," and that "the demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions" (which could be taken to mean that religion is a necessary component of society, true or false), the quote is often used by atheists.[citation needed]

Lenin on religion
Vladimir Lenin was highly critical of religion, saying in his book Religion
     'Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism.'[3]

In About the attitude of the working party toward the religion, he wrote
     'Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.'[4]"  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marxism_and_religion#cite_note-2

See also most recent reply to plethora.
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #217 on: December 31, 2011, 09:36:05 PM »
Snipped for focus
... nature worship type like the Hopi and most (all?) other native Americans.

Well, I don't represent any tribe, or speak for them, but I have some knowledge of their ways from my many meetings with various tribal members during my time as a trader. I wouldn't call them nature worshipers, although most do speak about living in "right relationship" with the earth and all its creatures, flying, walking, swimming or crawling. Something you might hear Floyd Red Crow Westerman say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floyd_Red_Crow_Westerman


Sorry, I did misstate things. In spite of the spirits/gods, I tend to think of it as something more like nature worship because of the much better connection to and understanding of nature. I know it isn't but it just clicks like that in my head.


Here is the Lakota creation story from a chapter of a book I wrote. I believe I heard this version (re-written in my own words) from Lame Deer or Leonard Crow Dog in the early 70's. It's probably on the web somewhere.

I can hear the echo through time of Xians trying to tell the Lakota that they are on the right track (because of the flood and small family start) but to get the real story they must read the bible. (shudder)
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline gzusfreke

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #218 on: December 31, 2011, 09:39:13 PM »
Do you ever listen to yourself?
  Yes, that's the best way to have an intelligent conversation around here.

Quote
If you had been born in a muslim country you'd be busy trying to convince me of the joys of islam. If you had been born in ancient Egypt Ra would be the greatest god ever with Horus a close second. Born in India a hindu or sikh and you would be swimming in the Ganges every year. In Israel you'd be a jew with ringlets hanging from your head. Do you get what I'm saying here? Do you catch my drift?
  No, m8, I don't, because there are tens of thousands of Christians in Iran, Egypt, Iraq, and Syria today.  There are hundreds of thousands of Christians in India today.  You were born in a country that was once a majority Christian and look at you - you are an atheist.  Even many Muslims in Muslim countries are nominal and not practicing Muslims (ie not True Believers in their own religion).

Quote
You have been born in an ostensibly christian society so you have gone with the flow. Yet the god you have chosen has no more validity than the others I have mentioned. They all offer "salvation" if only you believe.
 

That shows how little you know of other religions.  How many actually offer something called "salvation" as it compares to the Christian concept? 

How many offer salvation for all even if you don't believe?  In Buddhism, they don't "believe in" Buddha like Christians "believe in" Jesus.  Does a Buddhist say that I, as a Christian, won't reach the same place they think they will one day reach?  Same goes for Hinduism.  Will I come back next time as a Hindu even though I am a Christian now?  With Hinduism, even you will one day "be saved" or whatever it is they call it.

Quote
If I had been born in any of the places I have mentioned I would still be an atheist because my rationality and commonsense would demand it.
 

That is the height of conceit and self-delusion.  I, I, I, my.  You insinuate that other people are not rational and have no commonsense if they do not think like you.  The only thing demanding that you proclaim yourself to be an atheist is your ego, self, pride, and rebellion.  Many other people who are considered rational and gifted with common sense are also religionists, theists, and Christians.  Christians will acknowledge that someone can be an atheist and still be rational and have common sense.

Quote
See the picture below? Thats America to scale if it was on Saturn. Where are you on that tiny little speck of a country that god just loves soooooo much and what makes you think that any being as powerful as a god would be the least bit interested in the life if a speck that lives on a speck? and more importantly would want that speck anywhere near them after they have lived out their piffling, boring, blink of an eye life?

See this?  It amazed Carl Sagan.  It's the "pale blue dot" image.  Where am I on this tiny little speck in a backwater part of a small galaxy, one of billions and billions of galaxies?  And I am overwhelmed by knowing the God who made all of the galaxies, who named all the stars, and knows me so well that He knows how many hairs are on my head.  He endowed me with an immortal soul, so that when my time is up here I will continue to exist.  So will you.  This life is not all that there is.  Materialism is so overrated.  You and I can agree, this life is piffling, boring, and the blink of an eye compared to living in eternity.  How will you spend the rest of your life?



[/quote]
A dog barks when his master is attacked. I would be a coward if I saw that God's truth is attacked and yet would remain silent. - John Calvin

Offline monkeymind

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #219 on: December 31, 2011, 09:56:01 PM »
Snipped for focus
... nature worship type like the Hopi and most (all?) other native Americans.


Sorry, I did misstate things. In spite of the spirits/gods, I tend to think of it as something more like nature worship because of the much better connection to and understanding of nature. I know it isn't but it just clicks like that in my head.

I can hear the echo through time of Xians trying to tell the Lakota that they are on the right track (because of the flood and small family start) but to get the real story they must read the bible. (shudder)

So many stories were changed to please the Black Robes (Jesuits?).

They told the white guys the flute was to woo their women, and they didn't have a problem with that! They would do certain ceremonies during Christmas and other holidays making the soldiers think they were celebrating theirs.

The Native American Church (Peyote religion) have a ceremony with a budding rod and a water drum (representing Christ) and other Christian symbolism. I don't remember much from the one I attended!

Changed for clarity and formatting
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 10:02:12 PM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #220 on: December 31, 2011, 10:02:42 PM »
Snipped for focus
You have yet to show that Stalin or any of the others are athiests and that they got people to kill for them for supposedly athiest reasons. All you have done is pick leaders who have slaughtered millions who don't have a clear theist connection - big deal. I would expect there to be quite a few through-out history. While far too many millions have died for theist reasons, there are millions who died for plenty of other reasons. (No, I don't have names and numbers.)

Lenin on religion
Vladimir Lenin was highly critical of religion, saying in his book Religion
     'Atheism is a natural and inseparable part of Marxism, of the theory and practice of scientific socialism.'[3]

See also most recent reply to plethora.

Interesting. In post # 216 you reply to my post (# 23). And in post # 212 to plethora you recount that Stalin did try to force atheism on others. Showing that while Stalin wasn't atheist (from what I read on Wikipedia) he did used his distorted concept of atheism – really antitheism – to try to control the masses. I do understand that no matter how twisted his comprehension of atheism, it does answer my charge regarding Stalin (only).

I'd ask if you understood that his antitheism is not the same as atheism – not that they are antithetical to each other – but that isn't on topic and I'm not sure I want to keep watching for another 193 posts to see if you might finally respond.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #221 on: December 31, 2011, 10:12:54 PM »
No, m8, I don't, because there are tens of thousands of Christians in Iran, Egypt, Iraq, and Syria today.  There are hundreds of thousands of Christians in India today.  You were born in a country that was once a majority Christian and look at you - you are an atheist.  Even many Muslims in Muslim countries are nominal and not practicing Muslims (ie not True Believers in their own religion).



In countries with more than a billion people living in them  I'm sure there are but you wouldn't be one of them any more than you would be one of the 7,000,000 muslims in America. You're a 100% go with the majority guy. You're a christian because the people in your street, town, city, country are mostly christian. Probably your parents are. You are bombarded with christian symbolism constantly and I think you are probably still young and keen. That's why you're here.

There has been many before you and no doubt there will be many more to come. All filled the the eagerness to defend God from us atheists. I have been posting here for a good few years now and I have yet to hear of any of my fellow atheists being converted because of the postings of someone like you.

Who do you think you are convincing here anyway? us or yourself? Do you feel the need to prop up your beliefs with these daily sojourns into the midsts of the godless? Doing your bit of anonymous crusading amongst the heathen and scoring a few brownie points with the guy upstairs. Or maybe you're having doubts and this is your way of seeking reassurance that you're not wasting your time and life on a foolish belief system that can't be supported by facts.

Just what is your justification for your visits here if your so convinced that we are wrong and you are right?
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 10:28:30 PM by Frank »
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline natlegend

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #222 on: December 31, 2011, 10:13:21 PM »
And I am overwhelmed by knowing the God who made all of the galaxies, who named all the stars, and knows me so well that He knows how many hairs are on my head.  He endowed me with an immortal soul, so that when my time is up here I will continue to exist.  So will you.  This life is not all that there is.

Um, evidence? &) Otherwise, you're dribbling sh!t.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #223 on: January 01, 2012, 01:09:58 AM »
And I am overwhelmed by knowing the God who made all of the galaxies, who named all the stars, and knows me so well that He knows how many hairs are on my head.  He endowed me with an immortal soul, so that when my time is up here I will continue to exist.  So will you. This life is not all that there is.  Materialism is so overrated.  You and I can agree, this life is piffling, boring, and the blink of an eye compared to living in eternity. How will you spend the rest of your life?

(bold mine)

It's interesting that you think this life is not all there is, yet you also simultaneously believe that this live determines the rest of eternity.
Don't you see the inherent problem with that line of thinking?



Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #224 on: January 01, 2012, 03:54:25 AM »


What convoluted horse crap to avoid the basic question "Does this increase freedom, or decrease freedom of sapient beings?"


It's not horse crap if you actually understood the government in the USA.  The federal government has no law forbidding gay marriage.  It's a state law issue.  Individual states can pass the law, others may not.  It really has nothing directly to do with natural-rights declared in the founding documents which was my initial conversation.

First of all you are talking to someone who is called on regularly to make law interpretations on these sort of issues...DOMA hamstrings me.

Second, doesn't matter, once again you dance around the issue "Does this increase freedom, or decrease freedom of sapient beings?" state or federal doesn't matter.

You are being, once again, dishonest
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #225 on: January 01, 2012, 10:55:42 AM »
Ok, so then you disagree then with all of the founders of the usa.

From Wikipedia:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

So yes, I disagree with them. People are not endowed by anything with those rights, nor are they created.
The right to life isn't even an actual right, it's merely the ability to survive along with dumb luck. The other two can only exist if other people cooperate. Hence, not "god-given" or "natural-given".

Ok.  So you think it would be fine if the Declaration said "they are endowed by 'temporary government officials' with certain 'alienable' Rights"

So in other words, the citizens only have the right to freedom if a government official decides that's the case, and of course could take that right away since they are the decider. 

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #226 on: January 01, 2012, 11:02:05 AM »
  So you think a country which declares no god-given rights, or 'natural-rights' if you prefer,  would make no difference?   Ok, so then you disagree then with all of the founders of the usa.  That, they must of had no conception of what they were doing or why, when they wrote such rights into the founding documents?

Well since I don't live in America I would disagree with these all knowing founders of yours. I live in the UK and I have just as much practicle freedom as you do. In fact I would argue that I actually have more freedom than you do.

Rights grow over millenia. America came late into the world so you had the 1700 years of english common law to fall back on. What? Did you think these founding fathers came up with all that stuff themselves? I think not. You've heard of the Magna Carta? Well two clauses from Magna Carta became the fifth and sixth amendments of the American Constitution.



The founders created the USA to get away from the tyranny of Englands king.   So if you're country is 'more free' than the US, this must be a recent development.

*btw  ,  England is probably more free considering all the socialists trying to run the usa right now...but that's a whole other story.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 11:09:44 AM by Gill »

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #227 on: January 01, 2012, 11:13:26 AM »
Ok.  So you think it would be fine if the Declaration said "they are endowed by 'temporary government officials' with certain 'alienable' Rights"

To be honest, I couldn't care less what your declaration of independence says.
Your own country's inhabitants don't give a shit about what it says. If they did, homosexual marriage would be illegal everywhere and women and African-Americans would have been able to vote since your country was founded. Atheists would not be discriminated against on just about everything, et cetera.

So in other words, the citizens only have the right to freedom if a government official decides that's the case, and of course could take that right away since they are the decider. 

Democracy. Look it up.

The founders created the USA to get away from the tyranny of Englands king.   So if you're country is 'more free' than the US, this must be a recent development.

My country is over 800 years old. We were one of the first countries in the world to get rid of the death penalty, the eighth to recognize homosexual marriage on a national scale and we have "arguably the most liberal laws concerning possession of illicit drugs in the Western world."[1]

The last two happened in the past ten years. Your country doesn't have either one. So yes, this is a recent development. But not because your country is "more free" than ours. Quite the opposite, in fact.

We also abolished slavery (in the mainland) in 1761. Your country hadn't even been founded.
EDIT: We had abolished slavery in all our territories "in the first half of the 19th century after Brazil".[2]
 1. From Wikipedia.
 2. Once again, from Wikipedia.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 11:19:07 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #228 on: January 01, 2012, 11:17:03 AM »
Ok.  So you think it would be fine if the Declaration said "they are endowed by 'temporary government officials' with certain 'alienable' Rights"

To be honest, I couldn't care less what your declaration of independence says.
Your own country's inhabitants don't give a shit about what it says. If they did, homosexual marriage would be illegal everywhere and women and African-Americans would have been able to vote since your country was founded. Atheists would not be discriminated against on just about everything, et cetera.


Yeah, people do care about what it says, if they have any interest in living in a free society.  Those who don't care, blindly allow the government to chip away at more and more of their freedoms as they elect socialist leaders. 



The founders created the USA to get away from the tyranny of Englands king.   So if you're country is 'more free' than the US, this must be a recent development.
Quote
My country is over 800 years old. We were one of the first countries in the world to get rid of the death penalty, the eighth to recognize homosexual marriage on a national scale and we have "arguably the most liberal laws concerning possession of illicit drugs in the Western world."[1]

The last two happened in the past ten years. Your country doesn't have either one. So yes, this is a recent development. But not because your country is "more free" than ours. Quite the opposite, in fact.

We also abolished slavery (in the mainland) in 1761. Your country hadn't even been founded.
 1. From Wikipedia.

I'm not going to get into some debate over what country is 'more free',  totally off point.

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #229 on: January 01, 2012, 11:21:33 AM »
Yeah, people do care about what it says, if they have any interest in living in a free society.

Tell that to the theists who want to turn the USA into a theocracy.

Those who don't care, blindly allow the government to chip away at more and more of their freedoms as they elect socialist leaders. 

I wasn't aware that a socialist president had ever been in the White House. I always thought it was either Republican or Democrat. Please show me these socialist leaders.

I'm not going to get into some debate over what country is 'more free',  totally off point.

Don't say "debate". You make it sound as if you had a shot. You don't.
There are countries far older than the USA which are a lot "more free" than it.
EDIT: Also, you're the one who brought it up.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2012, 11:24:17 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Omen

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #230 on: January 01, 2012, 11:24:13 AM »
I'm willing to bet the same number of people who do not believe in god that committed mass murder is equal to the number of people who do not believe in leprechauns and committed mass murder. ( Actually, less than )
"Religious faith is the antithesis to knowledge, it is the opposition to education, and it has to act in animosity against the free exchange of ideas.  Why? Because those things are what cause harm to a religions place in society most." - Me

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #231 on: January 01, 2012, 11:33:01 AM »
Yeah, people do care about what it says, if they have any interest in living in a free society.

Tell that to the theists who want to turn the USA into a theocracy.

lol, maybe there are people that way, but that will never happen.

Those who don't care, blindly allow the government to chip away at more and more of their freedoms as they elect socialist leaders. 
Quote

I wasn't aware that a socialist president had ever been in the White House. I always thought it was either Republican or Democrat. Please show me these socialist leaders.

Most liberal democrats are socialist.

I'm not going to get into some debate over what country is 'more free',  totally off point.
Quote

Don't say "debate". You make it sound as if you had a shot. You don't.
There are countries far older than the USA which are a lot "more free" than it.
EDIT: Also, you're the one who brought it up.

No, I never did try to argue that the USA is 'more free' than anyone.  I brought up the point of the importance of defining sovereignty to the citizens over government officials to support freedom.