Author Topic: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century  (Read 19236 times)

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #116 on: December 30, 2011, 04:43:51 PM »
No I'm not claming that.  I'm saying that if you believe that your rights aren't natural, they were given to you by men, then you must also believe that men can take them away.

Well, yeah, of course men can take them away.  We've seen that happen in history countless times, where peoples' rights have been taken away.

And here you are, claiming it doesn't happen!  Craziness.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #117 on: December 30, 2011, 04:45:34 PM »
I'm saying that it would be a hell of a lot more difficult to try to legitimately argue for taking away someone's rights if they are declared as natural-rights, then if they were declared as man-given.

You just said that the country you lived in recognized them as natural-rights. Try again.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #118 on: December 30, 2011, 04:46:35 PM »
I just said the difference.   If our rights are 'god-given'  or 'natural-given',  then how can a government official try to argue in taking them away if he didn't give them to you in the first place?  He can try, but most people will not see it as a legitimate argument.

Did Hitler argue to the Jews that he should be able to take away their right to life?  Or did he just go ahead and do it, with "God-given" sanction?

If people genuinely want a right - whatever its origin - then they will not accept that it should be taken away.  If they do not want a right, then they will not care whether it's from a god or not, they just won't care about the right.

Why are gods better right-givers than humans are?  If a right-giving human's authority can be neglected, then so can a god's.

Well Hitlers country never had a constitution which declared natural-rights, and so that's what happens.....

Offline rickymooston

Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #119 on: December 30, 2011, 04:47:25 PM »
But, if I had a choice between having a government leader as an atheist or christian, I'd probably choose the christian.

This is why many people profess Christ. People assume, falsely in my opinion, that the person who claims "God", is a good person and moral.

Quote
Since,  the atheist sees no authority higher than himself.  Therefore, I think this can lead more likely to a dictator mindset.

This is a huge strawman. In essence, you are protecting your own visions into somebody else. My mother for example, was a strong atheist and gave much of herself to others, always putting them before herself. She was a firm and complete believer in democracy as was my atheist grandfather who died at the age of 98 after living a life of compassionate chartity

My grandfather for example, frequently helped other elderly people walk their dogs. He would come over and talked to one's who were lonely or bedridden.

Did he have a "higher authority"? Perhaps, no but he had principles.

The right question is, to look at what people do.

What policies does this person vote on. What sort of things has the person done in

Quote
  Whereas, a christian recognizes a higher authority than himself, and so would less likely conceive of himself as a dictator.

This assumes the "Christian" is "true". This also assumes that their version of the "authority", agrees with yours.

Was Calvin a "Christian"? Is it o.k. he burned a man to death for disagreeing with him?

What of the popes of the past?

Your thinking on this issue is very shallow, especially given that you are not even a Christian yourself.  ;)

Ask the right questions This is a huge weakness in your approach here.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #120 on: December 30, 2011, 04:50:11 PM »
Well Hitlers country never had a constitution which declared natural-rights, and so that's what happens.....

You really think that'd have made a difference, Gill?  Really?

Anyway, my post had a key question in it, that you disregarded:

Why are gods better right-givers than humans are?  If a right-giving human's authority can be neglected, then so can a god's.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #121 on: December 30, 2011, 04:50:15 PM »
I'm saying that it would be a hell of a lot more difficult to try to legitimately argue for taking away someone's rights if they are declared as natural-rights, then if they were declared as man-given.

You just said that the country you lived in recognized them as natural-rights. Try again.

It does.   But that doesn't mean people can't argue to try to take people's rights away, they do all the time.  But, since there were rights which were initially declared as natural-rights, those people face a much harder argument to try to take them, then if those rights were initally declared as man-given.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #122 on: December 30, 2011, 04:52:46 PM »
Anyway, my post had a key question in it, that you disregarded:

Why are gods better right-givers than humans are?  If a right-giving human's authority can be neglected, then so can a god's.

Because Gods are not humans, so then you take away supreme power from any government official.   But as i said, if you don't like the idea of God, then just as well use the term 'Natural' in place of it, which would seem pretty similar.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #123 on: December 30, 2011, 04:57:25 PM »
No, "natural" is meaningless in this context.  "Nature" cannot communicate rights.  It has no intentions.  Nature is naturalistic.  It is utterly incapable of giving people rights.

A god could, mind you.  Just like a human could.  If, as you've just said, you need a non-human to give the rights, then we could try to interpret rights from a goat, or a whale.  Those aren't humans, either, and acknowledging the goat's authority to give us rights would "take away supreme power from any government official"...did you mean to add something other than "not human"?  Why is simply not being human important?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2011, 04:59:08 PM »
It does.   But that doesn't mean people can't argue to try to take people's rights away, they do all the time.  But, since there were rights which were initially declared as natural-rights, those people face a much harder argument to try to take them, then if those rights were initally declared as man-given.

But these people who do it are the ones who supposedly also follow your god's laws, while (most) atheists are the ones who try to give those rights to people who deserve them.

Wasn't your argument the exact opposite of this?
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #125 on: December 30, 2011, 05:06:05 PM »
No, "natural" is meaningless in this context.  "Nature" cannot communicate rights.  It has no intentions.  Nature is naturalistic.  It is utterly incapable of giving people rights.

A god could, mind you.  Just like a human could.  If, as you've just said, you need a non-human to give the rights, then we could try to interpret rights from a goat, or a whale.  Those aren't humans, either, and acknowledging the goat's authority to give us rights would "take away supreme power from any government official"...did you mean to add something other than "not human"?  Why is simply not being human important?

I'll show you why.  Let's say I'm a government official.  A lawmaker.  If your right to freedom is man-given, then a man should be able to take it away, should he not?   Therefore, I could legitimately argue to take away your right to freedom.

Alternatively, if your right to freedom is god-given, or 'naturally-given' to you,  then how can I form a legitimate argument to take it away?  I'd be arguing to take away something that you naturally already have.   This is not going to be an easy argument to get people to accept, and therefore promotes such freedom in place of tyranny.


Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #126 on: December 30, 2011, 05:07:56 PM »
It does.   But that doesn't mean people can't argue to try to take people's rights away, they do all the time.  But, since there were rights which were initially declared as natural-rights, those people face a much harder argument to try to take them, then if those rights were initally declared as man-given.

But these people who do it are the ones who supposedly also follow your god's laws, while (most) atheists are the ones who try to give those rights to people who deserve them.

Wasn't your argument the exact opposite of this?

Its not so much a religious argument, but an argument for as to why the country needs to recognize a higher authority than man.

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #127 on: December 30, 2011, 05:09:36 PM »
Its not so much a religious argument, but an argument for as to why the country needs to recognize a higher authority than man.

But the country DOES recognize the higher authority than man (according to you), and so do the theists, but the atheists do not; yet they act as you say the other side acts - atheists vote to give people their "god-given" rights, while theists vote to keep those "god-given" rights away from them.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #128 on: December 30, 2011, 05:19:46 PM »
I'll show you why.  Let's say I'm a government official.  A lawmaker.  If your right to freedom is man-given, then a man should be able to take it away, should he not?   Therefore, I could legitimately argue to take away your right to freedom.

Well, at least women can't take them away then.  &)

If a right to freedom is given, then it can be taken away.  The nature of who gave it has no logical impact in and of itself.  You can put in "... given by men" or you can widen it to "given by conscious beings" or you can narrow it to "given by men with beards".  What difference does it make who gave the rights, aside from what we think of who gave the rights?  And I'm asking for logical differences, Gill, not the impacts you think that agreeing with my position might have on politics.

Alternatively, if your right to freedom is god-given, or 'naturally-given' to you,  then how can I form a legitimate argument to take it away?

The same way you would if it was given by a human being, I imagine.

I'd be arguing to take away something that you naturally already have.  This is not going to be an easy argument to get people to accept, and therefore promotes such freedom in place of tyranny.

Sure it is.  Just convince people that they were mistaken and have different rights after all.  Or that they need to give up those rights in-practice, temporarily.  Or that nature, not having decision-making abilities, doesn't know what's best in this case.[1]  Or that God has become angry and made a new judgment.[2]  Or that God's rights are irrelevant, and we should overthrow them and institute our own.[3]

It's frighteningly easy.
 1. We already accept that line of reasoning with respect to getting dental work and using medicine, after all.
 2. A Christian theist sort of argument.
 3. A Satanist theist sort of argument.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 05:30:40 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #129 on: December 30, 2011, 05:20:15 PM »
Its not so much a religious argument, but an argument for as to why the country needs to recognize a higher authority than man.

But the country DOES recognize the higher authority than man (according to you), and so do the theists, but the atheists do not; yet they act as you say the other side acts - atheists vote to give people their "god-given" rights, while theists vote to keep those "god-given" rights away from them.

Could you please give an example of voting to give and take rights?

Offline One Above All

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #130 on: December 30, 2011, 05:24:47 PM »
Could you please give an example of voting to give and take rights?

Homosexual marriage and African-Americans and women having the right to vote. All three were prohibited. The latter two are now legal everywhere, while the former is still being held back by theists.
I don't know exactly when these things were decided, since I don't live in, nor have I studied the history of, the USA.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #131 on: December 30, 2011, 05:26:42 PM »
^^ Voting in the representatives who instituted the Patriot Act.  Then voting in more representatives who expanded it to further take away rights and freedoms.  Voting in representatives who gave the government the legal right to declare any citizen a terrorist[1] and either imprison them without legal contact indefinitely, or actually kill them.

This has all happened in America in the last decade.  America, which you've used as an example of somewhere protected by its naturally-given rights.

How did that happen, do you think?  Could it be because rights, even "natural rights", do not defend themselves?

EDIT:  This post is directed at Gill, not at Luci.
 1. Read: enemy of the state.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 05:29:40 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #132 on: December 30, 2011, 05:37:40 PM »
How did that happen, do you think?  Could it be because rights, even "natural rights", do not defend themselves?

EDIT:  This post is directed at Gill, not at Luci.

I didn't say that people couldn't argue against someones rights.  But,  by declaring the initial natural-rights, it is much harder to legitimacy try to argue to take them from people.

Declaration of Independence Intro;   

  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. "

What if instead,  the Declaration said;

  "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their temporary government officials with certain alienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

Wouldn't seem to hard to argue to take people's right away would it?

Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #133 on: December 30, 2011, 05:41:45 PM »
The USA was founded on the blood and bones of its indigenous peoples....the object of this freedom turned from religous freedom to greed,gold,timber and other resources were the new motivator for the establishment of the new colonies.

Indeed. God-fearing people who were emboldened by their faith and "god-given rights" who didn't have a clue that the indigenous people had a better understanding of how man and nature interact. So they displaced and slaughtered the supposed "primitives" who were as smart if not smarter than they were - just not as technologically advanced. And, for as "primitive" as the indigenous people were, they knew one needs to be honorable whether in peace or war - something the godfolk didn't have a clue about.

I do not have even an iota of Native American heritage. But if I had a chance (not that it's at all possible) I'd still consider sinking Columbus' ships on their first voyage. Might not stop what happened but better than just killing Hitler - Nazi germany was a much more complex situation.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #134 on: December 30, 2011, 05:51:54 PM »
:yawn:   anyone who lives in america who wants to talk down about the country, well then,  leave the country....

Offline monkeymind

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #135 on: December 30, 2011, 06:00:12 PM »
^^^Yeah with the yawning going on, maybe you are too tired and should leave the thread.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 06:02:56 PM by monkeymind »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #136 on: December 30, 2011, 06:03:41 PM »
I didn't say that people couldn't argue against someones rights.  But,  by declaring the initial natural-rights, it is much harder to legitimacy try to argue to take them from people.

Only if the people see them as legitimately given.  That's true no matter where the rights "came from".

Wouldn't seem to hard to argue to take people's right away would it?

Replace "temporary elected officials" with "Founding Fathers".  After all, those are the people who actually used their human-given authority to enact those rights in the first place.

Ends up being pretty much the same.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #137 on: December 30, 2011, 06:05:43 PM »
:yawn:   anyone who lives in america who wants to talk down about the country, well then,  leave the country....

^^ That attitude makes it pretty hard to fix things about one's country.  I mean, if there's a problem, and people leave the country rather than talk about the problem, then the problem's not going to be solved, is it?  Unless it's an overpopulation problem, then it might be solved, but only if people actually leave rather than taking the easy route and shutting up about the problem.
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Offline rickymooston

Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #138 on: December 30, 2011, 06:06:24 PM »
First on the list - Pol Pot of Cambodia.  Between 2 million and 4 million people were murdered under his regime, from 1963 to 1998.

Yes, I agree:
1) As far as I know, he was an atheist.
2) He killed a lot of people

What you can say further was that he, unlike many atheists, was a communist and further more, I believe he believed in a very backward form of communism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_amin <-- Believed in God and killed thousands of people. Amnesty International put the toll at say 500,000 but other estimates are lower.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan#Religion
Apparently, Khan, may have been a Shaman. He is reputed to have been open to other faiths but he is also known for the slaughter of up to 45 million people.


Anti-jewish pogroms from Muslims and Christians. It should be noted while it can be argued that Hitler was a pan-theist rather than a sincere Catholic, a great many Christians both Catholic and Protestant co-operated in the extermination of Jews during the 1940s.

Quote
During the Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain, beginning in the 9th century, Islamic Spain was more tolerant towards Jews.[8] The 11th century, however, saw several Muslim pogroms against Jews; notably those that occurred in Cordoba in 1011 and in Granada in 1066.[9] In the 1066 Granada massacre, the first large pogrom on European soil, a Muslim mob crucified the Jewish vizier Joseph ibn Naghrela and massacred about 4,000 Jews[10] In 1033 about 6,000 Jews were killed in Fez, Morocco by Muslim mobs.[11][12] Mobs in Fez murdered thousands of Jews in 1276,[13] and again, leaving only 11 alive, in 1465.[13][14]

In 1348, because of the hysteria surrounding the Black Plague, Jews were massacred in Chillon, Basle, Stuttgart, Ulm, Speyer, Dresden, Strasbourg, and Mainz. By 1351, 60 major and 150 smaller Jewish communities had been destroyed.[15] A large number of the surviving Jews fled to Poland, which was very welcoming to Jews at the time.[16]

Jews, Poles, and Catholics were massacred during the Khmelnytsky Uprising of Ukrainian Cossacks in retaliation for Polish colonialism in 1648–1654,[17] and during the Koliyivshchyna in 1768-1769

What of the genoicide of the natives in North and South America? Hint
What did Jesus's followers do?
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #139 on: December 30, 2011, 06:07:24 PM »
^^^Yeah with the yawning going on, maybe you are too tired and should leave the thread.

I was yawning at the comment  about 'sinking Columbis' ships'.

Yeah, right.  Sink his ships.   Clearly trying to talk down about America, for whatever reason, so if you happen to live here also, why?

Offline monkeymind

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #140 on: December 30, 2011, 06:09:49 PM »
^^^Yeah with the yawning going on, maybe you are too tired and should leave the thread.

I was yawning at the comment  about 'sinking Columbis' ships'.

Yeah, right.  Sink his ships.   Clearly trying to talk down about America, for whatever reason, so if you happen to live here also, why?


I live here because my ancestors always lived here. They didn't leave when Columbus got here, and I'm not leaving either.


Oh yeah and I happen to like it here in spite of its probs.
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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #141 on: December 30, 2011, 06:12:26 PM »
Anyway, my post had a key question in it, that you disregarded:

Why are gods better right-givers than humans are?  If a right-giving human's authority can be neglected, then so can a god's.

Because Gods are not humans, so then you take away supreme power from any government official.   But as i said, if you don't like the idea of God, then just as well use the term 'Natural' in place of it, which would seem pretty similar.
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #142 on: December 30, 2011, 06:12:48 PM »
nm

Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #143 on: December 30, 2011, 06:12:59 PM »
I didn't say that people couldn't argue against someones rights.  But,  by declaring the initial natural-rights, it is much harder to legitimacy try to argue to take them from people.
Wouldn't seem to hard to argue to take people's right away would it?

You must have missed this, directed at you:
^^ Voting in the representatives who instituted the Patriot Act.  Then voting in more representatives who expanded it to further take away rights and freedoms.  Voting in representatives who gave the government the legal right to declare any citizen a terrorist[1] and either imprison them without legal contact indefinitely, or actually kill them.
This has all happened in America in the last decade.  America, which you've used as an example of somewhere protected by its naturally-given rights.
How did that happen, do you think?  Could it be because rights, even "natural rights", do not defend themselves?
 
 1. Read: enemy of the state.

You remember the Patriot Act, don't you? Our government didn't even break a sweat taking away our rights. Clever people can always come up with a reason.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #144 on: December 30, 2011, 06:14:30 PM »
:yawn:   anyone who lives in america who wants to talk down about the country, well then,  leave the country....

What about my "god-given"/"nature-given" right to free speach?
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther