Author Topic: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century  (Read 18121 times)

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Offline Death over Life

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2011, 12:50:50 PM »
Did we scare him away?

Anyways, I was planning on challenging the Joseph Stalin claim, but somebody else already did it so thank you!  :)

Let us play his face-value game here for a second. Let us say all of them were atheists and that God is indeed real. The fact that they were atheists means nothing because as the Bible says, God sanctions ALL forms of government, good and bad. So, if God ordained these people to do what they did, who's really to blame, Hitler, Pot, Stalin, Zedong, or is it really God, Jesus Christ, Holy Spirit for putting them into office to begin with?

Peter 2:13-23

13Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
14Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
15For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:
16As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
17Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
18Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
19For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
20For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.
21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

Romans 13:1-4

Romans 13
1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.


I like the kicker, on verse 2 in Romans that if you resist the corrupt government(s), you are receiving yourself to damnation. Guess the Tea Partyers will have a great awakening coming when they die!

Offline changeling

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2011, 12:53:55 PM »
Quote by Gill, "Ok. Well, fortunately in my country you need more of a reason to go to war than that. "

And which country might that be Gill.

"President George W Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to
invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and create a Palestinian State, a new BBC series reveals. "

« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 12:55:39 PM by changeling »
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #60 on: December 30, 2011, 12:54:43 PM »

Yeah, I have seen that.
The leader might say that God told him to invade a country.

Ok. Well, fortunately in my country you need more of a reason to go to war than that.

Really?  I thought you said you lived in the USA.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #61 on: December 30, 2011, 12:55:42 PM »
And which country might that be Gill.

"President George W Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to
invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and create a Palestinian State, a new BBC series reveals. "

Ok.  So did all the hundreds of congressmen and women, who are the ones which approve war,  also agree with this idea? 

Offline changeling

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #62 on: December 30, 2011, 12:57:20 PM »
Sorry pianodwarf,
I was typing while you replied.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard

Offline changeling

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #63 on: December 30, 2011, 12:58:42 PM »
And which country might that be Gill.

"President George W Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to
invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and create a Palestinian State, a new BBC series reveals. "

Ok.  So did all the hundreds of congressmen and women, who are the ones which approve war,  also agree with this idea?

It doesn't matter if they agreed with his idea.
God gave him the command.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #64 on: December 30, 2011, 12:59:00 PM »
Sorry pianodwarf,
I was typing while you replied.

That's OK, that happens quite a bit around here.  And it's hard to keep track of who's in which country sometimes.  At least, with most of the regulars here, not all of them.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #65 on: December 30, 2011, 12:59:42 PM »
And which country might that be Gill.

"President George W Bush told Palestinian ministers that God had told him to
invade Afghanistan and Iraq - and create a Palestinian State, a new BBC series reveals. "

Ok.  So did all the hundreds of congressmen and women, who are the ones which approve war,  also agree with this idea?

It doesn't matter if they agreed with his idea.
God gave him the command.

huh?  The president doesn't have the authority to start a war.   This declaration must be approved by congress, so yeah, I think it does matter.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #66 on: December 30, 2011, 01:04:06 PM »
Why would a President care about the War Powers Act Resolution if he thot god told him to bring war?

Wiki:
The War Powers Resolution was disregarded by President Clinton in 1999, during the bombing campaign in Kosovo, and again by President Obama in 2011, when he did not seek congressional approval for attack on Libya, arguing that the Resolution did not apply to that action.[2] All presidents since 1973 have declared their belief that the act is unconstitutional. [3][4]
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #67 on: December 30, 2011, 01:06:26 PM »
Why would a President care about the War Powers Act if he thot god told him to bring war?

Wiki:
The War Powers Resolution was disregarded by President Clinton in 1999, during the bombing campaign in Kosovo, and again by President Obama in 2011, when he did not seek congressional approval for attack on Libya, arguing that the Resolution did not apply to that action.[2] All presidents since 1973 have declared their belief that the act is unconstitutional. [3][4]

apples and oranges.   The iraq war had to be declared and approved by congress, which it was.  So if one wants to blame Bush, then you have to blame congress too...

Offline monkeymind

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #68 on: December 30, 2011, 01:12:36 PM »
I'm responding to you saying you would rather have a Christian as President, and asking you a question.

(and I referenced Clinton and Obama, anyways)
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #69 on: December 30, 2011, 01:14:31 PM »
Whereas, a christian recognizes a higher authority than himself, and so would less likely conceive of himself as a dictator.

So does a muslim, hindu, jew, sihk, rastafarian, etc etc. Would you have a problem with any of them or just atheists?

I'd have a problem with anyone who doesn't recognize a higher authority than himself, being a leader of the country.   I live in the u.s.a., so if an atheist recognizes 'natural given rights' , instead of 'god given rights',  I suppose then they would be recognizing a higher authority.   But,  I just see this to be less likely in other parts of the world.

And so you have some people in my country who think; 'why do we need god in the constitution, etc.'.  Well, to prevent tyranny you have to start with the premise that there is an authority greater than any elected official, that's why......

You didn't answer the question. Would you vote for a muslim before an atheist?
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #70 on: December 30, 2011, 01:21:13 PM »
You didn't answer the question. Would you vote for a muslim before an atheist?

I doubt it since most Muslim countries seem to be dictatorships.   

Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #71 on: December 30, 2011, 01:23:57 PM »
You didn't answer the question. Would you vote for a muslim before an atheist?

I doubt it since most Muslim countries seem to be dictatorships.

Beside a christian what religion would you vote for?
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline monkeymind

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #72 on: December 30, 2011, 01:26:18 PM »
So if you read that wiki article the next line after the one I mentioned says:
Quote
All presidents since 1973 have declared their belief that the act is unconstitutional.

So if all presidents since the resolution think it is unconstitutional AND if they think god told them to, why wouldn't they be even more likely to start a war w/o congressional approval? I think they would.

But I gotta go for now, can't wait to see if you are gonna answer me this time.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #73 on: December 30, 2011, 01:29:55 PM »
You didn't answer the question. Would you vote for a muslim before an atheist?

I doubt it since most Muslim countries seem to be dictatorships.

Beside a christian what religion would you vote for?

Maybe buddist or jewish since most those countries are democratic also.   

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #74 on: December 30, 2011, 01:35:57 PM »
So if you read that wiki article the next line after the one I mentioned says:
Quote
All presidents since 1973 have declared their belief that the act is unconstitutional.

So if all presidents since the resolution think it is unconstitutional AND if they think god told them to, why wouldn't they be even more likely to start a war w/o congressional approval? I think they would.


Possibly, that's a complex question...

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #75 on: December 30, 2011, 01:39:28 PM »
Since,  the atheist sees no authority higher than himself.  Therefore, I think this can lead more likely to a dictator mindset.  Whereas, a christian recognizes a higher authority than himself, and so would less likely conceive of himself as a dictator.

That's the important part.  I'm sure that most Christians DON'T think they are dictating, no more than any imam does.

What people have been trying to say to you (which perhaps got lost in the talk of war), is that a religious leader may at some point come to the position where s/he feels that god wants certain actions performed - and it is then, precisely because they believe in and follow a "higher power", that they will follow what they think that higher power wants, totally convinced that they are correct to do so. 

And THAT is dictatorship.  Doesn't matter that they are following a "higher power" instead of their own whims - the effect is the same - or worse because they have the "backing" of the ultimate Big Cheese for whatever actions they deem fit.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Frank

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #76 on: December 30, 2011, 01:40:32 PM »
You didn't answer the question. Would you vote for a muslim before an atheist?

I doubt it since most Muslim countries seem to be dictatorships.

Beside a christian what religion would you vote for?

Maybe buddist or jewish since most those countries are democratic also.

There is only 1 jewish country and no bhuddist democracies. So you don't really have much to go on. Yet most of Europe has secular government. But you wouldn't vote for an atheist. Why do I bother.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #77 on: December 30, 2011, 01:46:37 PM »
Beside a christian what religion would you vote for?
Quote
Maybe buddist or jewish since most those countries are democratic also.

There is only 1 jewish country and no bhuddist democracies. So you don't really have much to go on. Yet most of Europe has secular government. But you wouldn't vote for an atheist. Why do I bother.

But isn't India buddist or hindu to be specific?  That would be fine.   

Offline Avatar Of Belial

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #78 on: December 30, 2011, 01:51:07 PM »
Since,  the atheist sees no authority higher than himself.

Instead, the atheist likely views everyone as equals. No one is superior, but no one is inferior - thus democracy. The idea that there is a higher power directly contributed to Monarchies - and the very concept of the Christian God is one of the strongest forms of a Dictatorship you could come up with.
"You play make-believe every day of your life, and yet you have no concept of 'imagination'."
I do not have "faith" in science. I have expectations of science. "Faith" in something is an unfounded assertion, whereas reasonable expectations require a precedent.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2011, 01:52:32 PM »
When you can show that mass murder occurred anywhere specifically because of "a lack of belief in gods", then perhaps it will be worth discussion.

Do you think that Pol Pot and Joe Stalin would have killed just as many people if they were theists?

Now, rising star Benito Mussolini with a death count of at least 300,000.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benito_Mussolini
how many people of MY nations have christians killed  60 million and counting (Indigenous people of North America)
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2011, 01:53:30 PM »
Since,  the atheist sees no authority higher than himself.

Instead, the atheist likely views everyone as equals. No one is superior, but no one is inferior - thus democracy. The idea that there is a higher power directly contributed to Monarchies - and the very concept of the Christian God is one of the strongest forms of a Dictatorship you could come up with.

Correct. As an atheist, I see no higher authority than us. That is us as in we, not as in USA.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2011, 02:10:38 PM »
Since,  the atheist sees no authority higher than himself.

Instead, the atheist likely views everyone as equals. No one is superior, but no one is inferior - thus democracy. The idea that there is a higher power directly contributed to Monarchies - and the very concept of the Christian God is one of the strongest forms of a Dictatorship you could come up with.

So then who gives you your rights in the USA,  some temporary elected officials?  No, that is tyranny, to base ultimate authority on temporary government officials.   That's why the founders of the country recognized that people are 'endowed with rights from their creator'.  To take the full power off the government.

Now, if you want to call your creator  'the universe', or 'nature' , instead of God, that's fine, but it's still the same philosophy of recognizing an authority that trumps any person.

And so if one doesn't believe in such an authority, then I think they'd be less respecting of such a governmental premise.    Then you have tyrants, trying to control everyone.  (Instead of conservatives which follow the founders recognition of such rights)

Offline jetson

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #82 on: December 30, 2011, 02:26:08 PM »
What is it with using the word "authority".  What in the world does that even mean for humanity, in this context?  Why does a human being have to recognize a higher authority?

Offline Azdgari

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #83 on: December 30, 2011, 02:27:14 PM »
^^ Because if we don't recognize a higher authority, then we might end up governing ourselves, instead of living in a dictatorship...
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Offline jetson

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #84 on: December 30, 2011, 02:28:47 PM »
^^ Because if we don't recognize a higher authority, then we might end up governing ourselves, instead of living in a dictatorship...

That's how I understand the context, so I'm hoping that Gill can see why this is a weird position to take.  I hope he doesn't think that a higher authority is a requirement for humans to exist, have societies, live their lives, and get along in peace?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #85 on: December 30, 2011, 02:29:49 PM »
Why would a President care about the War Powers Act if he thot god told him to bring war?

Wiki:
The War Powers Resolution was disregarded by President Clinton in 1999, during the bombing campaign in Kosovo, and again by President Obama in 2011, when he did not seek congressional approval for attack on Libya, arguing that the Resolution did not apply to that action.[2] All presidents since 1973 have declared their belief that the act is unconstitutional. [3][4]

apples and oranges.   The iraq war had to be declared and approved by congress, which it was.  So if one wants to blame Bush, then you have to blame congress too...
and the religion of most U.S. congressman and women?
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Offline Gill

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Re: ATHEISTS who have committed mass murders and genocide in the 20th century
« Reply #86 on: December 30, 2011, 02:33:00 PM »
^^ Because if we don't recognize a higher authority, then we might end up governing ourselves, instead of living in a dictatorship...

That's how I understand the context, so I'm hoping that Gill can see why this is a weird position to take.  I hope he doesn't think that a higher authority is a requirement for humans to exist, have societies, live their lives, and get along in peace?

I don't understand how that's weird.   Who gives you your rights; other men and women?  Or do you believe you were born with natural rights?

The USA is founded on the principle that people are born with god-given rights.   If you don't believe in god, then call them 'natural given rights'.  But either way, you're recognizing something which endows you power other than simply transient elected officials...