Author Topic: no power in the 'verse can stop us  (Read 1406 times)

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Offline velkyn

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no power in the 'verse can stop us
« on: December 29, 2011, 09:01:41 AM »
PZ Myers has a great post about why he's a atheist who doesn't sit down, shut up and plays nice with theists.  Unsuprisingly, I happen to agree (yes, yes, I know, quite a shocker  8) ). And it's full of Firefly goodness

http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2011/12/28/no-power-in-the-verse-can-stop-us/

Quote
Jayne: Shiny. Let’s be bad guys.
Of course, the kind of bad guys we are are the ones encouraged by Carl Sagan: the critics of mysticism and foolishness who do not sit silent when a god-botherer says something stupid. We misbehave because it’s about damn time someone did.
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Offline jetson

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2011, 09:22:54 AM »
Thanks for posting, that was awesome.

Yet, I am still not as brave, or confident.  I value my relationships, so I cower to a common denominator in some cases.  Actually, just writing it down made me realize that I cannot possibly truly value my relationships, if I'm wiling to compromise so much of who I am, in order to maintain those relationships.

Damnit velk - I'm on vacation, I'm supposed to be relaxing, and now I'm all fired up again!

 Woo hoo! 

Offline velkyn

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2011, 11:02:15 AM »
go have a beer  ;D  It is hard to trod the line of knowing just how forceful to be, especially with relationships.  My opinion is that those who are worth the relationship will deal with me being me.   And the rest?  It would hurt to end relationships but sometimes I do think it is for the best.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2011, 06:42:52 PM »
Thank you - that was a good article. I then read his "We're meddlesome" article and the ones by others it was in reply to. I found this:

Chris Stedman says the following towards the end of this article (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-stedman/atheist-activism-problems_b_1164399.html)
Quote
So let's call it like it is. If your "top priority" is working to eliminate religion, you are not simply an atheist activist -- you are an anti-religious activist.

I maintain significant disagreement with many religious beliefs, but I do not wish to be associated with narrow-minded, dehumanizing generalizations about religious people. I am disappointed that such positions represent atheist activism not only to the majority of our society, but to many of my fellow atheist activists as well.
Bold mine

This is the first article of Chris Stedman's that I have read but I'm not inclined to keep reading considering the major logic flaw. Being anti-religious means being against religious belief/religion but says nothing about dehumanizing anyone. Does anyone know Chris Stedman's writing? And can I expect similar flawed statements?
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2011, 07:57:21 PM »
Gotta put this on the scales. I would like very much to be an outspoken critic of religious absurdity. I can probably put up a fair decent argument for my absence of belief in the supernatural. However, sometimes it serves a better purpose to just let it go.

My cherished daughter is married to a really nice guy who is the son of an army colonel whose career was that of a chaplain. Needless to say, that side of the family is populated by jesus freaks.  My daughter is a pretty bright woman who had some prior reservations about all that churchy stuff.  She is obliged to behave respectfully towards the theists in here life. If I come out strongly against all that, I will cause her unneccessary grief from the religious part of the family. What is a poor father to do?  That is easy. Given the choice of causing a rift in her relationship with her husband and her in laws, and keeping my damned mouth shut.........................that is an easy choice.  I care for her more than I care to set a bunch of deluded dreamers straight. That circumstance really annoys the hell out of me. 

With all that I still subscribe to the essay that was referenced. The guy did a nice job of presenting his viewpoint.


Offline kin hell

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2011, 09:56:33 PM »
Quote from: PZ
Pigliucci complained about the arrogance of some atheists who think all believers are dumb, which is a common complaint, and one you hear from believers as well. But they’re wrong: I don’t think I’m smarter than everyone else.

I just think I’m right.

That’s important. Atheists should have a feeling of unrepentant confidence — we are on the right side of reason, the right side of history, and the right side of the evidence. It’s not because I think I have some intrinsically greater worth than others at all, but I have shed some delusions and freed myself of traditional dogma, and have also worked most of my life to alleviate my ignorance. Other people could benefit from similar enlightenment.


Proud to agree........


>snip<

Fortunately he's not a retiring "turn the other cheek" xian so can give as good as he gets (except for rational assessment of theism) and our friendship is much stronger than our occasionally snarling but most often hilarious bickering and bantering agreement to disagree.

But my position is made clear at every meeting/skype/phonecall etc as I always end those conversations that stray into this topic with
"...well, I'm right and you are a fuckwit"
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2011, 01:05:18 AM »
..  That is easy. Given the choice of causing a rift in her relationship with her husband and her in laws, and keeping my damned mouth shut.........................that is an easy choice.  I care for her more than I care to set a bunch of deluded dreamers straight.

I feel for your plight.. But I would not choose your path, even if it made your daughter's life a bit uncomfortable, it would create a foothold for future enlightenment.

If your daughter had been the wife of a David Koreshian' christian, would you have still held your tongue from the delusion?
Would you have accepted as inevitable her death in the fiery mass suicide?

Personally, I'd kick my daughter's ass if she sacked up with some deluded nut. I'm teaching them analytical skills that should protect them from the BS.

I would stop a bullet for my daughters, I would also give up my comfortable relationship with them to bring them to their senses and break them free from a mental sickness.

I was a preacher's kid, I've seen "christianity" cause a young boy pour gas upon himself and kill himself because his christian parents couldn't accept him as gay. I couldn't live with myself if my daughter pushed her child to self immolation for a similar stance with her possible christian nut husband. I would love my future grandkids too much. I know that in the future, kids will be smarter and that christianity and other gods will die out as the science gaps from where they're hiding disappear. Then someday my grand kids or my great grandkids will be proud of their ancestor that was smart and not a deluded idiot.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 01:15:17 AM by Brakeman »
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Offline Poseidon

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2011, 12:02:12 PM »
Brakeman; my daughter, Terri, did not and would not have married into a kooky fundamentalist Koreshian type clan. I would have kidnapped her and spirited her away to Tasmania or Mozambique before I'd let her get involved with crazies. In any case, Terri is a college educated, well traveled, professional woman who is pretty shrewd.  Her married family is moderate but  typically immovable.

I did take a small chance with one of my xmas gifts. It was a 12 hour lecture series DVD by Bart Ehrman. Some of the lecture material is about attempts to validate the bible textural content.  So far that is the extent of my meddling. Pretty sneaky, I know. At this time I am not quite ready for head on collisions. 

Offline rev45

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2011, 04:05:32 PM »
I did take a small chance with one of my xmas gifts. It was a 12 hour lecture series DVD by Bart Ehrman. Some of the lecture material is about attempts to validate the bible textural content.  So far that is the extent of my meddling. Pretty sneaky, I know. At this time I am not quite ready for head on collisions. 
My mother gave me Lee Strobel's Case For Christ this Christmas.  I'm thinking of getting her a copy of The Age of Reason next Christmas.
Here read a book.  It's free.
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2011, 04:12:13 PM »
My aunt sent me that book a couple of years ago.

Pretty pathetic attempt on Strobels part.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2012, 11:13:02 AM »
posiedon,
I think you mistake respect as meaning you say nothing no matter what to maintain the peace. That is not respectful that is being a doormat.  I can have respect and still disagree with people if they are wrong and oh religion is indeed wrong.   

and samothec, Stedman is on the accomodationist side and does seem to use very bad arguments, usually strawmen of the "earth will end if we take away the theists' binky" type. 
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Offline riley2112

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2012, 12:26:18 PM »
After reading the article I found him to be a dick. It is not necessary to be condescending, patronising and aggressive in a debate about someones belief. As for myself, yes at time I get pissed but for the most part I try to respect how others feel . Respect does not = agreement. You may or may not find this of interest.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2010/sep/09/god-richard-dawkins-angry-atheist
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 02:25:11 PM »
After reading the article I found him to be a dick. It is not necessary to be condescending, patronising and aggressive in a debate about someones belief. As for myself, yes at time I get pissed but for the most part I try to respect how others feel . Respect does not = agreement. You may or may not find this of interest.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2010/sep/09/god-richard-dawkins-angry-atheist

Respect doesn't mean agreement; it also doesn't mean allowing someone to continue on spreading a lie to salve their feelings.  If someone acts like a spoiled brat, then they get treated like a spoiled brat, with all of the patronizing condescenscion I can muster because that's all that gets through sometimes.  To be quite blunt, people who do beleive in things that have no evidence, and have been shown for thousands of years to have no evidence, aren't very thoughtful.  They may be intelligent in other parts of their lives but they have shut down that intellect to beleive in a primitive superstition that makes them "feel" special.   Can everyone hold irrational beliefs?  You bet, but to not relinquish them in the face of evidence is indeed stupid and deluded, right out of the dictionary.   I know it's not pleasant to be called such things but it's describing exactly what is going on.  Most theists don't beleive in other gods or fairies or gremlins, but they have exactly as much evidence to show their gods are real as do people who do indeed believe in other gods, fairies, etc.   Do I call a person who is sure that there are smurfs in their garden stupid and delusional? Yep, I do.  I'm guessing most theists would do the exact same thing, and there are no cries of how "condescending, patronising and agressive" a-fairists, a-gremlinists, are. 

From my experience, any doubting of the claims of a theist gets an atheist considered a "dick" or worse.  How dare we question anything an beleiver says sicne they are sure it's the "truth"?  There is no reason to sugar coat, nor ability to sugar coat, the direct words to a theist "You are wrong and this is why."   It is, I'm sure, upsetting to a theist to be told this, that something that they have held true for a very long time (or not so long in your case, Riley) that they have made a mistake.  Do I run into churches to do this?  No, and neither does Dawkins or Hitchens, etc.  But they do confront the nonsense when it impacts them and their society. 
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Offline riley2112

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 04:15:49 PM »
After reading the article I found him to be a dick. It is not necessary to be condescending, patronising and aggressive in a debate about someones belief. As for myself, yes at time I get pissed but for the most part I try to respect how others feel . Respect does not = agreement. You may or may not find this of interest.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2010/sep/09/god-richard-dawkins-angry-atheist

Respect doesn't mean agreement; it also doesn't mean allowing someone to continue on spreading a lie to salve their feelings.  If someone acts like a spoiled brat, then they get treated like a spoiled brat, with all of the patronizing condescenscion I can muster because that's all that gets through sometimes.  To be quite blunt, people who do beleive in things that have no evidence, and have been shown for thousands of years to have no evidence, aren't very thoughtful.  They may be intelligent in other parts of their lives but they have shut down that intellect to beleive in a primitive superstition that makes them "feel" special.   Can everyone hold irrational beliefs?  You bet, but to not relinquish them in the face of evidence is indeed stupid and deluded, right out of the dictionary.   I know it's not pleasant to be called such things but it's describing exactly what is going on.  Most theists don't beleive in other gods or fairies or gremlins, but they have exactly as much evidence to show their gods are real as do people who do indeed believe in other gods, fairies, etc.   Do I call a person who is sure that there are smurfs in their garden stupid and delusional? Yep, I do.  I'm guessing most theists would do the exact same thing, and there are no cries of how "condescending, patronising and agressive" a-fairists, a-gremlinists, are. 

From my experience, any doubting of the claims of a theist gets an atheist considered a "dick" or worse.  How dare we question anything an beleiver says sicne they are sure it's the "truth"?  There is no reason to sugar coat, nor ability to sugar coat, the direct words to a theist "You are wrong and this is why."   It is, I'm sure, upsetting to a theist to be told this, that something that they have held true for a very long time (or not so long in your case, Riley) that they have made a mistake.  Do I run into churches to do this?  No, and neither does Dawkins or Hitchens, etc.  But they do confront the nonsense when it impacts them and their society.
I am really starting to hate it when you make sense. :?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 04:28:56 PM »
I'd wish that you didn't, but I understand. It's not easy at all.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2012, 08:45:25 PM »
samothec, Stedman is on the accomodationist side and does seem to use very bad arguments, usually strawmen of the "earth will end if we take away the theists' binky" type.

Thank you, that's good to know. I like the 'quote'.     :laugh:


(link to) god-richard-dawkins-angry-atheist

Thank you also. The author of the article has a point.

As does velkyn's reply to you about the article.    ;D   LOL re your reply in turn.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2012, 12:57:16 AM »
I think Meyers doesn't understand the difference between being an objector and being objectionable.  I agree that it serves no purpose to not object to stuff that's simply wrong or that one doesn't agree with.  If we can't do that in this country, where can we do it?  But there's a difference between saying that something is wrong, even getting in someone's face about it, and taking pride in being considered obnoxious in how one comes across.

Let me put it this way.  I'm not going to walk on eggshells to avoid saying things that might hurt someone's feelings, but I'm also not going to go out of my way to go after their feelings either.  If a person thinks I'm obnoxious, then they're not going to listen to me no matter what I say, but I don't need to make it easy for them to make that decision.  I'm reminded of a saying I heard; mercy has its own sharp point, more lethal to an enemy than any sword or spear.

Offline velkyn

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2012, 09:35:23 AM »
This the one part of the article that Riley linked to that I found most relevant

Quote
She was incredibly upset at some of the things I had been saying as part of what I thought was just casual banter over a cup of tea. She pointed out that, from her perspective, the views I had been expressing about religion were offensive to people like her. Of course, I don't think this friend of mine is remotely stupid but I had to concede that the things I had been saying might have suggested otherwise.

just like I've said.  A nonbeliever can say anythign that we would think perfectly respectful and honest and a theist would automatically say it's offensive and become "incredibly upset".   Now, as I've seen repeatedly on this forum, this bears out to be quite accurate.   And I will not shut up if someone decides to claim that anythign that shows them to be wrong is "offensive".   No human likes to be told their wrong.  It hurts their feelings and it is unpleasant for them.  That is no excuse to not tell them the facts.  They'll use that excsue anytime they can if they think they can claim it's "obnoxious":  odiously or disgustingly objectionable : highly offensive, or even better the archaic use: exposed to something unpleasant or harmful. 
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Offline kin hell

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #18 on: January 04, 2012, 10:40:51 AM »
   No human likes to be told their wrong. 

....they're they're velky  .......mimes sympathetic pat on back   they're they're  ;)

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Offline velkyn

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #19 on: January 04, 2012, 10:54:48 AM »
   No human likes to be told their wrong. 

....they're they're velky  .......mimes sympathetic pat on back   they're they're  ;)

damnit, I'm wrong Arrrrgghhhhh <proceeds to run around in a fit>   ;D
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #20 on: January 04, 2012, 11:16:58 AM »
just like I've said.  A nonbeliever can say anythign that we would think perfectly respectful and honest and a theist would automatically say it's offensive and become "incredibly upset".   Now, as I've seen repeatedly on this forum, this bears out to be quite accurate.   And I will not shut up if someone decides to claim that anythign that shows them to be wrong is "offensive".   No human likes to be told their wrong.  It hurts their feelings and it is unpleasant for them.  That is no excuse to not tell them the facts.  They'll use that excsue anytime they can if they think they can claim it's "obnoxious":  odiously or disgustingly objectionable : highly offensive, or even better the archaic use: exposed to something unpleasant or harmful.
As I said, there's a difference between understanding that people will take offense even if none is meant and persisting even so, and taking pride in being found offensive without considering whether there's a good reason for it.  When Meyers, or other people, start referring to others on their same side as "accommodationists" and parodying their statements, that suggests that they're starting to believe their own propaganda, so to speak.  Maybe that isn't the case, but it would behoove Meyers to clarify that.

Offline velkyn

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 11:32:04 AM »
I'd say that likely to consider that there is often, if not always, a good reason for it, since if we allow theists with their tender feelings to control the conversation we'll never be able to say anything.  I find this rather like the Muslims trying to control the conversation by threatening violence when their religion is ridiculed.

As I discussed with someone on this forum (the thread about when it's okay to tell a theist that one doesn't believe and call them on their claims)  and don't ever recall getting a straight answer to, if atheists are always shut down by claims of "offensiveness" by theists, when will we be able to speak?   Is there ever a time that a theist won't find it offensive to be told they are wrong?  Is it okay to allow one side to control the conversation when their claims are baselss? 
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 12:10:10 PM »
There's no good reason to be deliberately objectionable in a conversation.  To me, that's just as bad as someone using hurt feelings to try to control a conversation.

Taking pride in being found offensive is like letting tactics dictate strategy; letting short-term benefits overrule long-term ones.  A theist may well take offense at being told that they're wrong; does that mean that you should make it easy for them to pigeonhole you as someone that they can tune out?

What is the goal of being outspoken about atheism?  To be heard and to be taken seriously, correct?  If that is the case, then would it not make sense to act in such a way that people will listen and take it seriously, instead of handing them a silver-plated excuse to blow off the whole thing?

Offline velkyn

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 01:05:16 PM »
There's no good reason to be deliberately objectionable in a conversation.  To me, that's just as bad as someone using hurt feelings to try to control a conversation.
Who's the one defining what is "deliberately objectionable", Jaime?  As I've pointed out, theists find anything questioning them to be exactly that.  One question, telling someone that they are wrong is trying to control a conversation?  Not trying to build a strawman, but to see if that's what you believe. 
Quote
Taking pride in being found offensive is like letting tactics dictate strategy; letting short-term benefits overrule long-term ones.  A theist may well take offense at being told that they're wrong; does that mean that you should make it easy for them to pigeonhole you as someone that they can tune out?
You are assuming that this is true.  I take pride in being willing to push theists out of their comfort zone.  If this requires me to be called "offensive" by theists, that is fine by me and it amuses me to see a lie by a Christian when I’m not offensive at all.  As has been established, many theists will automatically consider any questioning of their beliefs offensive.  And it's not me that is pigeonholing.  It is the theist using a lie as an excuse and they have already tuned me out.  I cannot prevent any excuses they might make; I can only show how they are wrong repeatedly.  Again, it is their opinion that any remark against their religion is "offensive".  They have claimed it such to defend their religion and to shut down the conversation.   
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What is the goal of being outspoken about atheism?  To be heard and to be taken seriously, correct?  If that is the case, then would it not make sense to act in such a way that people will listen and take it seriously, instead of handing them a silver-plated excuse to blow off the whole thing?
I’ll add the most important one to me: and to get theists to give up their nonsense by showing them that they are *wrong*.   I can be heard and be taken seriously about atheism by other atheists and my words with them are no different than those to theists.  The attitude of many theists makes this impossible since they do not want us to be heard at *all*.  They do not want to take us seriously and they intentionally lie about atheists.  Does this show you at all that they have *any* inclination to listen to us?  They already *have* a silver plated excuse to blow us off, it’s called their desperation to keep their faith. 
Again, Jaime, you seem to refuse to acknowledge that theists have any responsibility in their actions toward atheists.  All you seem to ever claim is that atheists should just let the poor theists alone.  In that other thread, I do not recall you ever gave one instance where you said it was okay to tell a theist that they were wrong.  Every time you wanted it to be controlled by the theist; that the atheist should wait for the theist to ask a question. Again and again, we see that tactic does not work.  Repeatedly, we see that the theist doesn’t care about what anyone else things or even considers that they are wrong.  The girlfriend in the article is offended by what the author thought was fine.  We have theist after theist here who come on with misconceptions of science and outright lies and even when shown that they are wrong in the most gentle ways, they throw fits and run away.  We do get the occasional person who is honestly questioning, but you know as well as I do on how rare they are.  Take for instance, Riley.  I am not treating him with kid gloves by any stretch of the imagination, but he’s still here and still asked questions and makes his own contributions.   Then compare him with the others, like onesteward, simplecaveman, gzusfreke, and hundreds more, etc, and see how they aren’t interested at all in facts but only their delusions.  They are not here to learn or ask questions honestly; they are simply too deluded to realize they are ridiculous evidently thinking that their nonsense will magically become valid and accepted if they pray hard enough.  They leave and return, with the same lies and nonsense.  Now, do you think that type of theist is open to an atheist just sitting there passively waiting to be asked a question? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Poseidon

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #24 on: January 04, 2012, 01:35:12 PM »
I'm on board with Jaime because his strategy is ultimately more effective.  It is useful to consider cost- benefit ratios before entering into a conflict.   We might not be able to reason with a hard headed evangelical. All we would get from an encounter with them is righteous derision.  That could delay our overall mission, particularly if the evangelical was an activist. On the other hand if we can have a rational and persuasive converstion with an opponent who is semi receptive, we might make some  progress. Our aim should be to create allies, not to make a game of pissing people off.

We are in the minority, we need many new converts, we have to be shrewd and sneaky where appropriate.  Shrewd and sneaky is the operative method of successful churches. It works for them, why not us.


Offline velkyn

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2012, 01:38:49 PM »
I'm on board with Jaime because his strategy is ultimately more effective.
I don't agree. I have not seen it be effective. Do you have some evidence of this?  and again, where are these "semi-receptive" theists that will see us as something other than offensive?  I'm not trying to be stubborn, I simply haven't seen these people actually exist.  Even my parents, who are ridiculously nice, don't like to hear me show how their religion is wrong in the most non-threatening, gentle way possible. 
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Offline riley2112

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2012, 02:11:23 PM »
I'd say that likely to consider that there is often, if not always, a good reason for it, since if we allow theists with their tender feelings to control the conversation we'll never be able to say anything.  I find this rather like the Muslims trying to control the conversation by threatening violence when their religion is ridiculed.

As I discussed with someone on this forum (the thread about when it's okay to tell a theist that one doesn't believe and call them on their claims)  and don't ever recall getting a straight answer to, if atheists are always shut down by claims of "offensiveness" by theists, when will we be able to speak?   Is there ever a time that a theist won't find it offensive to be told they are wrong?  Is it okay to allow one side to control the conversation when their claims are baselss?
I can not talk for all theist, but as for myself. I don't mind being told that you believe my beliefs are wrong , what I find offenses is when I am being called stupid, being told I am not thinking , being told that my believe make me no smarter than a five year old. 
 I do not find atheist to be of less intelligent because of their beliefs. I do not start calling you names because you do not believe the way I do. I do not start making fun of you because of your beliefs. I know that some theist do start with the name calling , I have seen it on here. But just as I do not talk for all theist , the ones that are rude and disrespectful does not talk for me. If they act like spoiled little children then that is because they have not learned respect , not because of God.  There has been times on this forum that I myself have been embarrassed by the way a so called Christian has acted. Being afraid that you would think that we all act that way. I just do not believe you need to be rude to make a point. I try to be respectful no matter what I am talking about , granted at times I do fail, but I try.

If you think I am wrong , fine , I will not be upset if you tell me. After all I came to your forum, you did not invite me here , I came because of my own (dare I say it) free will. ;) However being told I am wrong about something and being told I am stupid is two different things.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2012, 02:30:16 PM »
I can not talk for all theist, but as for myself. I don't mind being told that you believe my beliefs are wrong , what I find offenses is when I am being called stupid, being told I am not thinking , being told that my believe make me no smarter than a five year old.
Well, Riley, if a theist ignores the evidence, there’s not a lot more anyone can do but say “you aren’t thinking” because they aren’t. They aren’t applying the intellect they have to this one subject, even though they might be logical and reasonable in any other instance, like if fairies existed.  And I would amend the last that your belief makes you (and I mean this in the generic way, not you personally) are as credulous or naive as a 5 year old.
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I do not find atheist to be of less intelligent because of their beliefs. I do not start calling you names because you do not believe the way I do. I do not start making fun of you because of your beliefs. I know that some theist do start with the name calling , I have seen it on here. But just as I do not talk for all theist , the ones that are rude and disrespectful does not talk for me. If they act like spoiled little children then that is because they have not learned respect , not because of God.  There has been times on this forum that I myself have been embarrassed by the way a so called Christian has acted. Being afraid that you would think that we all act that way. I just do not believe you need to be rude to make a point. I try to be respectful no matter what I am talking about , granted at times I do fail, but I try.
The difference is Riley, is that atheists have hard evidence that the beleifs of theists are wrong.  Even though some theists manage to do it, it should be hard to accuse an atheist of being less intelligent by saying “oh, all of your evidence, that’s stupid”. Name calling or not, from either side, is always trumped by this.  It is very very easy to roll my eyes and call a theist an idiot because they simply refuse to actually look at the evidence and their beliefs after repeatedly being shown and taught. I do find this to be the fault of religion, that they haven’t learned respect since they have been taught that they are right and everyone who doesn’t agree with them is wrong, and wrong in the most basic way.  They don’t think other ideas, and evidence, deserves respect.
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If you think I am wrong , fine , I will not be upset if you tell me. After all I came to your forum, you did not invite me here , I came because of my own (dare I say it) free will. ;) However being told I am wrong about something and being told I am stupid is two different things.
I know you don’t consider someone telling you that you are wrong to be rude, but the vast majority of theists do. I rarely call a theist an idiot or stupid here on the boards.  I know how that can come across, and I use those words judiciously since there is nothing more you can say about some people. It is what they are.  They indeed are stupid and idiotic, as I said, right out of the dictionary.  I’d use the same words on someone who claimed that the moon landings didn’t happen or that there is some entrance at the poles to a world within the earth, after trying to show them repeatedly that they are wrong.     

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Offline Dante

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Re: no power in the 'verse can stop us
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2012, 02:37:01 PM »
What is the goal of being outspoken about atheism?  To be heard and to be taken seriously, correct?

Yes, absolutely.

 
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If that is the case, then would it not make sense to act in such a way that people will listen and take it seriously, instead of handing them a silver-plated excuse to blow off the whole thing?

Here, you seem to assume that the persons you're engaging are the ones you are trying to convert. I dont see it that way. I see converting the people on the sidelines; the fence sitters, the rational thinkers, who've never heard the atheist argument presented by an actual atheist, as the ones we are reaching for. Also, it's much more difficult to not get defensive about your beliefs when you're engaged in direct confrontation about them, than it is to be on the outside looking in, IMO.

YMMV.


Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.