Author Topic: Your first 6 days in HELL  (Read 4452 times)

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Offline Historicity

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2011, 09:40:29 PM »
  If indeed He did and does, then He owns it.

Actually ownership would not exist at all.

BTW, when parents have children they find that the children own the house as well even if the children's name is not on the deed.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2011, 09:41:01 PM »
How does ownership function in the non-temporal medium external to the universe? How is authority a coherent concept in that situation?

What is it that you consider "the non-temporal medium external to the universe"? 

If the claims of the God of the Bible are true and He has always existed even though nothing else existed, and then He caused everything that we humans can be aware to exist from nothing, then would He would have authority/sovereignty/ownership by virtue of His bringing something into existence from nothing.   Further, He claims that the material universe is only existing because He wills it to exist.  Therefore, He claims to bring it into existence and controls its existence.  If indeed He did and does, then He owns it.

The first bolded word is what I am referring to, and bolded text following it is what I am asking about. How does the latter function within the context of the former?

Explain the concept ownership or sovereignty, without making reference to anything temporal or associated with the material universe that "we humans can be aware [of]".
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline Frank

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2011, 09:47:12 PM »


Is it morally wrong for God of the Bible to create an imperfect sentient being and then pass judgment on that being and consign it to everlasting torment?  That's the question, isn't it?

If the claims of the God of the Bible are true, on what basis can a mere human, a created one, pass moral judgment on Him?

How can a supposedly perfect god create an imperfect being?
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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2011, 09:47:20 PM »
And if this god is such an authority, and truly owns each of us independently, and can do with us what he pleases, then what the hell is he waiting for?

What is He waiting for?  This is what the Bible says He is waiting for:  "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance." 2 Peter 3:9

And this:  " 'Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,' declares the Lord GOD, 'rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?' "

If someone has authority, that doesn't mean that he has to exercise his rights immediately.  He can take his time.  Even humans set up statutes of limitations to recognize that people do not have to demand justice right away.  We humans can give offenders time to make restitution before dragging them to court.

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2011, 09:52:53 PM »
The first bolded word is what I am referring to, and bolded text following it is what I am asking about. How does the latter function within the context of the former?

Explain the concept ownership or sovereignty, without making reference to anything temporal or associated with the material universe that "we humans can be aware [of]".

AP, let me see if I can restate your question.  Are you asking me to explain ownership or sovereignty of "nothing"?  If so, I'm not sure how that is relevant to what I was speaking of, which is ownership or sovereignty of "something".

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2011, 09:57:56 PM »
How can a supposedly perfect god create an imperfect being?

Great question.  If the God of the Bible is as the Bible claims Him to be, is He bound to only creating that which is perfect?  Does His perfection require that He only create that which is perfect, or does He have the leeway to create imperfection?  Is He less than perfect if what He creates is less than perfect?

Frank, what would be the reason that a perfect being would be restricted in only creating things that are perfect?  What are the rules that this being has to operate under?

Offline Frank

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2011, 10:06:25 PM »
How can a supposedly perfect god create an imperfect being?

Great question.  If the God of the Bible is as the Bible claims Him to be, is He bound to only creating that which is perfect?  Does His perfection require that He only create that which is perfect, or does He have the leeway to create imperfection?  Is He less than perfect if what He creates is less than perfect?

Frank, what would be the reason that a perfect being would be restricted in only creating things that are perfect?  What are the rules that this being has to operate under?

Presumably the same rules that he applies to us. It doesn't give us much of a chance if god is using a different set of rules but has neglected to tell us. Every great artist has always tried to create perfection but if god less than perfect then his flaws are being recreated in us. If that is the case then he should take his own advice. "judge not lest ye be judged" and leave us alone.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

Offline jetson

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2011, 10:14:01 PM »
Why does a perfect God need to create anything?

Josiah

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2011, 10:17:29 PM »
How can a supposedly perfect god create an imperfect being?

Great question.  If the God of the Bible is as the Bible claims Him to be, is He bound to only creating that which is perfect?  Does His perfection require that He only create that which is perfect, or does He have the leeway to create imperfection?  Is He less than perfect if what He creates is less than perfect?

Frank, what would be the reason that a perfect being would be restricted in only creating things that are perfect?  What are the rules that this being has to operate under?

Presumably the same rules that he applies to us. It doesn't give us much of a chance if god is using a different set of rules but has neglected to tell us. Every great artist has always tried to create perfection but if god less than perfect then his flaws are being recreated in us. If that is the case then he should take his own advice. "judge not lest ye be judged" and leave us alone.

Help me understand why we should "presume" that a "perfect god", such as the God of the Bible claims to be, have to operate under the same rules as the beings that He created?

If indeed "god is using a different set of rules but has neglected to tell us" why does that matter as long as He has made it clear what set of rules He expects us to use?

Is the bottom line that you do not want to be held to a set of standards and judged by those standards and you just want there to be no god but if there is then you just want to be left alone?

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2011, 10:18:45 PM »
Why does a perfect God need to create anything?

Who said that a perfect God "needs" to create anything?  Where did you come up with that?

Offline RaymondKHessel

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2011, 10:19:13 PM »

Anyway. Thoughts? Comments? Christians, if your space genie is so beautiful and pure and all good all the time and just the loveiest deity to ever wuv you big huggy bunches... How the hell do you justify it allowing some place like this to exist? If all things in the universe come from your god, then this too, came from your god. And since this place is eviler than the evilest evil, and it came from your god, how the hell do you trick yourself into believing that your god doesn't have some massive resoivoirs of evil in it?

If we are speaking of the God of the Bible, it clearly states why He created Hell in Matthew 25:41:  “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;' "  Those who choose to have no part of God go to Hell and then Hell itself is thrown into the lake of fire: 

Uh-huh. Just how does one go about throwing a place into another place? It's logically impossible. A place can only change and be re-named.

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Rev. 20:14.

Wait, so like Death, the skeleton in the black cloak with a scythe and the voice of Norm McDonald, along with a Greek God, get toasted. That sounds... Really silly. So does dying twice, honestly.

The God of the Bible created Hell and the lake of fire for those who choose to rebel against Him. 

Come on dude. Do you know how insulting it is that you assume ANYBODY here doesn't know why your murderous boogie man made a napalm pit for barbequeing things he doesn't like?

The question was obviously rhetorical, meant to illustrate the very obvious logical problems that occur when you claim a magical all-powerfull being is NOTHING but "goodness" and "love", and then turn around and admit that he's letting thorny-cocked demons ass rape Norman Borlaugh day in and day out.

I promise you, most of us here know more of the bible than you do. You really should NOT assume that just because we don't believe in space elves, we've never read up on them. That's exactly WHY most of us are not Christians, in fact. Because we actually read the bible in it's entirity and are find it to be.... Lacking. A GOD should have done better.

That you guys can sit there, regurgitating feel-good propaganda and saying "love lovey love love! X luvs u! Y luvs u! Yahweh luvs u more than u can even IMAGINE!!

.... Now THAT is insulting. Because with VERY little effort, I can imagine love that doesn't involve TORTURING THE SUPPOSED "LOVED" ONE *FOR ALL ETERNITY!"

And ANY kind of love that doesn't involve eternal torture is better than Yahweh's love. A PEDOPHILES love, is better than Yahweh's love. 

If the God of the Bible is real

It's not.

You can tell because Jesus said he'd come back within about 60 years, or "Before the last of this generation leaves the Earth" or whatever the exact wording is, and it's now been 2,000 years.

How long you gonna sit at the table by yourself looking pathetic before you accept the fact that you've been stood up?

See, thing is, Christians like to say "You can't PROVE god is not real!" 

Which is true. I can't prove some generic, god-like being or alien or robot space baby isn't out there. It's too vague and generic. There's no specific facts claimed about the Great Robot Space Baby.

However, with Yahweh, we have 1,000 pages of incriminating evidence and 2,000 year old goofiness to analyze. And let me tell you, the bible is just LOADED with blatently obvious bullshit.

Well, it's blatently obvious to any sensible person who isn't going into the text with pre-drawn conclusions. You have to be INSIDE the actual cult before it seems to make perfect sense. Because to anyone on the outside looking in... Well, I'll be honest, it is both sad, scary, and pretty funny watching you guys try to explain why Yahweh, who allegedly wrote the ENTIRE bible, didn't know that the snake in the Garden was actually big red scary goatman, and instead cursed an entire species of animal for eternity. Maybe he wasn't so omniscient back in the day. 

But still, you'd think once he'd figure out he'd been duped, he'd have give snakes their legs back. No worries about eating dirt, they never adhered to that part of the curse any way.

Anyway, there's literally hundreds of chunks of nonsense like that. Almost something on EVERY SINGLE PAGE.  That's why we CAN disprove the Yahweh god specifically. Rather easily. Because it's self-admitted autobiography jaw-droppingly primitive and ugly and straight up stupid to any 21st century person who's not a total rube or indoctrinated from birth.
     
and He did create the entire universe and all that is within it,
 

He didn't. Because Yahweh is PURE GOODNESS AND LUV AND HUGGLES, right? And yet there's cancer. And forest fires. And serial killers. And all kinds of really foul s**t. That's certainly IN the universe, so you have to accept the fact that either A.)Yahweh is chock full of evil out of neccesity, because there's so much of it out there and everything came from him, or B.), it's total bullshit.

then is there any reason why He should not have total authority over all the things He created, to do with them as He sees fit?  Wouldn't that be within His sovereign right, since He created everything out of nothing?


Oh yeah. This one never gets old. Christians LOVE this excuse. Yeah, you're totally right. And you and your wife made your kid, so you can totally smash them in the collarbone with a golf club when they piss you off. Wouldn't that be your right?

Ugh. You guys are gross. You're essentially using the age old "Might Makes Right" excuse., and if you really think that's okay, then I don't like you lol. Because it makes you a total coward.

You actually stand there, totally castrated and spineless, going "Oh yassa boss, you just slaughter them liddle baybees all you like.' 

Anyway. NO, space case. Because all-powerfull magical super space elves don't have "rights".  HUMANS have "rights". And by human standards, the actions of Yahweh, in hundreds of examples, are deplorable and would get him the death penalty in a court of law.

You're trying to justify the actions of your god on some non-existant "divine list of rights" that simply doesn't exist, and isn't mentioned anywhere in the bible. In short, you're desperately reaching, and it's really pathetic to watch.

You MIGHT have a point if you're talking about a clay pot. Sure, smash the s**t out of it if you like. You made it, yes, but more important, it CAN NOT SUFFER.

And SUFFERING IS BAD.

Therefore, enforcing ETERNAL suffering on about 90% of the human population, including nearly EVERY East Indian and Asian who has EVER LIVED, is really really really really REALLY *REALLY* bad.

Your god is bad, Jimmy Jam. And not in the Michael Jackson super-kool way. 

See, people ARE NOT CLAY POTS. Kinda shocking I gotta point this out to you. We experience emotions. Among them is Fear, which is absolutely horrible for those that experience it. Perhaps worse than any other emotion.

What I'm saying is, in this reprehensible and laughable ancient work of fiction, you have a magic space wizard who created things with the ability to *suffer*. It did not have to do this. At all. So the fact that it did, makes it blatently malicious and, yes, FUCKING *EVIL* dude. It encourages slavery, and rape, and genocide, and mysoginy, and homophobia, and pedophelia, and more.

The fact that Adolph Hitler can't even begin to compete with Yahweh in terms of sheer MAGNITUDE of sufering should really make you stop and think. I don't know why it doesn't.

Oh, right, yes I do. Because you hand-wave it away by saying "Oh, well, uh, you know, it's his RIGHT".

Nah-ah. Not by general human standards. It's considered Crimes Against Humanity.

The only one giving it the "right" to torture the world is YOU. 

And you're just pulling that excuse straight out of your buttholey. YOU think it's his right.Because you're really messed up in the head and desperate to believe.

But you know what? Anyone who's not in your cult does NOT think this way. If asked, they would say, "Are you kidding? f**k NO it's not his right! You create living things, create the ability for them to suffer a million horrible experiences, you have a responsiblity to be considerate of your creation's capacity for suffering."

With great power comes great responsibliity. With INFINITE power comes INFINITE responsibility. Meaning if Yahweh was actually real, he should be handling humanity like we're made out of glass.

Now, if He has sovereign authority over all things, then He can make the rules and laws and He can be the judge of those who are subject to the rules and laws.  If He decides that those who rebel against Him and His rules deserve punishment, then what gives you, me, or anyone else the moral authority to question God's morality?

What, are you joking? What gives me or anyone else the moral authority? Because we are the ones that the suffering is happening to, ya loon!!! f**k, get with the program! We are the ONLY ones with the moral authority to question Yahweh's fictional "morality", because WE ARE THE ONES SUFFERING BILLIONS OF HORRIBLE EVENTS! Derp! lol... If I'm roasting in a napalm river, you bet your pasty ass I'm going to exercise the right to go "WOW THIS FUCKING SUCKS, AND WHATEVER MADE THIS PLACE IS ONE DEMENTED WEIRDO!"

For realz. There has never been a human being alive, or a fictional character created, responsible for more suffering than the Christian god.

Well, I dunno. Maybe some Sci-Fi space warlord who's wiped out entire galaxies or something. But *I've* never read about a more fucked up, irresponsible, malicious, incompetent, fumbling, childish, EVUHHHHHL critter than Yahweh the Great Foreskin Collector.

<shrug>

Sorry. I guess, to sum it all up, I think you're completely full of s**t, and it's really really sad that you've brain damaged yourself in such a way that you can read your holy murderbook and still claim to *worship* and *LOVE* ( :o )the monster it details in it's pages.

I mean, to the rest of us... That's really messed up hombre. Ya'll got some issues.

Edit: LOL... 17 responses in the time it took me to write this... And I should have known the rest of the forum would hammer home the same points.

This is such basic level stuff. Like God-Killing 101 lol.  ;D
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 11:05:48 PM by RaymondKHessel »
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Offline Frank

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2011, 10:25:06 PM »
How can a supposedly perfect god create an imperfect being?

Great question.  If the God of the Bible is as the Bible claims Him to be, is He bound to only creating that which is perfect?  Does His perfection require that He only create that which is perfect, or does He have the leeway to create imperfection?  Is He less than perfect if what He creates is less than perfect?

Frank, what would be the reason that a perfect being would be restricted in only creating things that are perfect?  What are the rules that this being has to operate under?

Presumably the same rules that he applies to us. It doesn't give us much of a chance if god is using a different set of rules but has neglected to tell us. Every great artist has always tried to create perfection but if god less than perfect then his flaws are being recreated in us. If that is the case then he should take his own advice. "judge not lest ye be judged" and leave us alone.

Help me understand why we should "presume" that a "perfect god", such as the God of the Bible claims to be, have to operate under the same rules as the beings that He created?

If indeed "god is using a different set of rules but has neglected to tell us" why does that matter as long as He has made it clear what set of rules He expects us to use?

Is the bottom line that you do not want to be held to a set of standards and judged by those standards and you just want there to be no god but if there is then you just want to be left alone?

Hmm. I appear to have touched a nerve.
The bottom line you talk of. Is that an unreasonable request? As I have already pointed out. I didn't ask to be born. I was happy with nonexistence. Why should I have to suffer for something I didn't do? Especially since I don't know what "standards" I'm being judged by.
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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2011, 10:27:42 PM »
I mean, to the rest of us... That's really messed up hombre. Ya'll got some issues.

Raymond, I think your last line is very self-descriptive.  Too many ad hominems and ranting off topic to respond to everything you posted. 

Suffice it to say that I responded to the invitation and gave my 2 cents, which I thought was the purpose of a forum.  Too bad you can't be tolerant of those who have an opposing or contrasting view.  Life might be more enjoyable for you.

As for who killed who, when's the last time you tallied up all the N. Koreans who were murdered under Kim Jung Il, or all the many different ethnic groups killed under Stalin?  We could banter back and forth all night, but the facts about atheistic dictators who have massacred millions are too readily available for all to see.

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2011, 10:30:35 PM »
The first bolded word is what I am referring to, and bolded text following it is what I am asking about. How does the latter function within the context of the former?

Explain the concept ownership or sovereignty, without making reference to anything temporal or associated with the material universe that "we humans can be aware [of]".

AP, let me see if I can restate your question.  Are you asking me to explain ownership or sovereignty of "nothing"?  If so, I'm not sure how that is relevant to what I was speaking of, which is ownership or sovereignty of "something".

No. I am asking how those concepts function in that context (or lack of context).

Explain the concept ownership or sovereignty, without making reference to anything temporal or associated with the material universe that "we humans can be aware [of]".

Perhaps, to start with, you could mention one thing not in the universe, which is owned, then who it is owned by, and finally how the concept applies in that context.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline jetson

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2011, 10:32:57 PM »
Why does a perfect God need to create anything?

Who said that a perfect God "needs" to create anything?  Where did you come up with that?

Are you saying that God created this universe, and us, but did not require a reason to do so?

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2011, 10:33:28 PM »
Is the bottom line that you do not want to be held to a set of standards and judged by those standards and you just want there to be no god but if there is then you just want to be left alone?

Hmm. I appear to have touched a nerve.
The bottom line you talk of. Is that an unreasonable request? As I have already pointed out. I didn't ask to be born. I was happy with nonexistence. Why should I have to suffer for something I didn't do? Especially since I don't know what "standards" I'm being judged by.

No, you didn't touched a nerve with me.  I'm just asking.  Unreasonable?  By whose standards?  Mine and yours or the God of the Bible?

Are you suffering for something?  If there is no God of the Bible, then there is no hell and lake of fire of the Bible, right?  So what's your complaint?  Where is your injury?  How have you been harmed or fouled?

I have been told twice tonight that most of the posters in the forum know the Bible better than most Christians.  If that is so, would you consider yourself one of those who know the Bible better than most Christians?  If so, then you know the standards.

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2011, 10:37:27 PM »
Perhaps, to start with, you could mention one thing not in the universe, which is owned, then who it is owned by, and finally how the concept applies in that context.

Define your understanding of "universe" and "thing".

Offline jetson

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2011, 10:39:05 PM »

I have been told twice tonight that most of the posters in the forum know the Bible better than most Christians.  If that is so, would you consider yourself one of those who know the Bible better than most Christians?  If so, then you know the standards.

Please, stop with the patronizing bullshit.  Standards - what do you claim to know?  Nobody knows the Bible better than anyone else.  Many have read it, and many have studied it from different perspectives.  But no one gets to claim any better "understanding" of it's meaning, including self-labeled Christians.

Atheists concede the benefit of the doubt, in over to have a conversation, after that, all bets are off.

Josiah

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2011, 10:39:46 PM »
Are you saying that God created this universe, and us, but did not require a reason to do so?

No, I am asking you why you think that God "needed" to create anything.  Do you think that God required a reason to create anything, or do you think that God was required by something to create?

Offline Frank

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2011, 10:41:15 PM »
Is the bottom line that you do not want to be held to a set of standards and judged by those standards and you just want there to be no god but if there is then you just want to be left alone?

Hmm. I appear to have touched a nerve.
The bottom line you talk of. Is that an unreasonable request? As I have already pointed out. I didn't ask to be born. I was happy with nonexistence. Why should I have to suffer for something I didn't do? Especially since I don't know what "standards" I'm being judged by.

No, you didn't touched a nerve with me.  I'm just asking.  Unreasonable?  By whose standards?  Mine and yours or the God of the Bible?

Are you suffering for something?  If there is no God of the Bible, then there is no hell and lake of fire of the Bible, right?  So what's your complaint?  Where is your injury?  How have you been harmed or fouled?

I have been told twice tonight that most of the posters in the forum know the Bible better than most Christians.  If that is so, would you consider yourself one of those who know the Bible better than most Christians?  If so, then you know the standards.

The Bible doesn't give me the standards. First of all I would need to establish which god is the correct one. There are so many. After we have established that then I would need to establish the correct denomination. After I have established that I would need to know which parts of which book, bible, koran, Torah, etc etc still apply today. i mean you religious types have a habit of cherry picking the bits that suit you and ignoring the bits that don't. E.G are all fags going to hell like the phelps family says? After having established all this then and only then would I be able to know what standards i am expected to live up to.

So how do I establish which god is the correct one?
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 10:46:45 PM by Frank »
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Offline jetson

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2011, 10:45:08 PM »
Are you saying that God created this universe, and us, but did not require a reason to do so?

No, I am asking you why you think that God "needed" to create anything.  Do you think that God required a reason to create anything, or do you think that God was required by something to create?

No, I think that if people are going to make claims, or even suggestions that a God is running the show, and they add attributes of omni this and that, to this god, as well as claiming that this god is perfect in every way, then they should also defend the very real question as to why such a god would need anything.  And yes, I believe creating something implies a need to create something.  I think it is a cop out to claim that a god such as Bible god created everything without the need to do so.

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2011, 10:46:30 PM »

I have been told twice tonight that most of the posters in the forum know the Bible better than most Christians.  If that is so, would you consider yourself one of those who know the Bible better than most Christians?  If so, then you know the standards.

Please, stop with the patronizing bullshit.  Standards - what do you claim to know?  Nobody knows the Bible better than anyone else.  Many have read it, and many have studied it from different perspectives.  But no one gets to claim any better "understanding" of it's meaning, including self-labeled Christians.

Atheists concede the benefit of the doubt, in over to have a conversation, after that, all bets are off.

If anyone is tossing the BS it is you Jetson and Raymond.  "I promise you, most of us here know more of the bible than you do. You really should NOT assume that just because we don't believe in space elves, we've never read up on them. That's exactly WHY most of us are not Christians, in fact. Because we actually read the bible in it's entirity and are find it to be.... Lacking. A GOD should have done better. " - Raymond, from an earlier post.  I was also told this (you guys know the Bible better) on another thread by Poseidon.  Trust me, I am not patronizing you.  As a matter of fact, the comment was made to Frank.  You just butted you nose in where it didn't belong.

Jetson, do you go through life without standards?  Do you just do life reacting however you wish without regard to anything?  Or do you live your live, at least in part, according to some set of rules (standards)?

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2011, 10:53:19 PM »
Are you saying that God created this universe, and us, but did not require a reason to do so?

No, I am asking you why you think that God "needed" to create anything.  Do you think that God required a reason to create anything, or do you think that God was required by something to create?

No, I think that if people are going to make claims, or even suggestions that a God is running the show, and they add attributes of omni this and that, to this god, as well as claiming that this god is perfect in every way, then they should also defend the very real question as to why such a god would need anything.  And yes, I believe creating something implies a need to create something.  I think it is a cop out to claim that a god such as Bible god created everything without the need to do so.

So why don't you ask nicely like this:  "Do you think that God created out of some need?" or "Was God required to create?"  instead of coming out of left field? 

The God of the Bible is described as not needing anything, so according to the Bible, no, He didn't create because of something He "needed". Paul addressed this with the Greeks:  Acts 17:24-25, "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, AS THOUGH HE NEEDED ANY THING, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things."

So maybe the image you have of a god that you think religious people believe in might "need" to create, but the God of the Bible that I believe in does not.

Offline Emily

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2011, 10:53:39 PM »
You just butted you nose in where it didn't belong.


Not to 'butt my nose where it doesn't belong', but you posed on forum where any active member can comment on what you said. If you wish for a private discussion then use the PM button. But this discussion can be seen and read and commented on by anyone, including those who can post. And those who can post, will. Get used to it.
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2011, 11:02:03 PM »
You just butted you nose in where it didn't belong.


Not to 'butt my nose where it doesn't belong', but you posed on forum where any active member can comment on what you said. If you wish for a private discussion then use the PM button. But this discussion can be seen and read and commented on by anyone, including those who can post. And those who can post, will. Get used to it.

I don't have a problem with people responding to what I say but I do have a problem with rudeness.  How can I take someone seriously when they act immaturely?

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2011, 11:14:39 PM »
Josiah,

You chose to join this forum and reply in a public thread.  I noticed that you did not reply directly to my "rant" against God.  You're certainly not required to do so, but as you seem to think I have been rude, I contend that you did not like my rant.  That is also OK.  I did it to counter your argument that God somehow gets to call the shots.  He doesn't.  And now you are mad at me.

You are also mad at Raymond because he told you something that you don't agree with. 

If you have more Biblical knowledge than the members of the forum, then represent.  Don't make baby Jesus cry.


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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2011, 11:22:22 PM »


The God of the Bible is described as not needing anything, so according to the Bible, no, He didn't create because of something He "needed". Paul addressed this with the Greeks:  Acts 17:24-25, "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, AS THOUGH HE NEEDED ANY THING, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things."

So maybe the image you have of a god that you think religious people believe in might "need" to create, but the God of the Bible that I believe in does not.

You have taken to editing the Bible? The part I have highlighted, you added that yourself, did you not?

All that passage says (once we remove your "additions") is what god does but as usual not why he does it.
"Atheism is not a mission to convert the world. It only seems that way because when other religions fall away, atheism is what is left behind".

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2011, 11:46:39 PM »

So why don't you ask nicely like this:  "Do you think that God created out of some need?" or "Was God required to create?"  instead of coming out of left field? 

It is not "out of left field" as you seem to think.  But if I got ahead of you, my apologies.

Quote

The God of the Bible is described as not needing anything, so according to the Bible, no, He didn't create because of something He "needed". Paul addressed this with the Greeks:  Acts 17:24-25, "God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands; Neither is worshipped with men's hands, AS THOUGH HE NEEDED ANY THING, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things."


This is your version of what you believe to mean that God does not need anything.  Big deal.  Do you know how many competing versions of this stuff are out there from just the Christians?  Do you care?

Quote
So maybe the image you have of a god that you think religious people believe in might "need" to create, but the God of the Bible that I believe in does not.

(My bold) You nailed it, and that is all you needed to say to my "left field" question.  The God of the Bible that you believe in, does not need to create anything.

Of course, I would not have let you off the hook, but I would have respected your personal belief.  The problem is, your personal belief is grounded in your personal belief.  Just like every other Christian on the planet.  The only "image" I get of the God of the Bible is the one that best challenges the typical Christian who claims to know more about the character than I do, or what I like to consider the standard model of Bible God (all knowing, all loving, all powerful, and perfect). 

If the entirety of the writings within the book were contemporary, we might have some disagreement, that could more legitimately be challenged.  But as far as the connection between the books, and the religion, and the god that many believe is actually real, and that created this world - well, that's where the personal delusion loses all of it's power to argue with me. 

I contend that any single person with average reading and reading comprehension skills, can read the Bible, and share their interpretation of it - and within reason, all interpretations are as valid as yours, and none of them get to claim a superior interpretation.  If you can show me that the vast majority of most major sects of Christianity all agree that God created everything, without the need to create anything, then I will happily concede.  If that were true, I would be surprised.

How do you reconcile a God that created something, but did not need to create it?  Did God want to create it?  What is all of this here for (assuming God did it) if not for God himself?  Where is the logic in creating something that you do not need to create?  Especially something that Christians believe is as important as us humans?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Your first 6 days in HELL
« Reply #57 on: December 29, 2011, 12:07:15 AM »
This is the drawback to eternity. Eventually it's going to get boring, even for Satan. After all once you've tortured one sinner you've basically tortured them all.
I mean what do dieties do all day? To already know everything. To already know the outcome of everything. An eternity with nothing to learn, no surprises, everything the same day after boring day.
Satan wouldn't have to torture us. With an eternity of boredom to look forward to we would soon create our own hell. Unforunately for Satan and Yahweh they would have to suffer it with us since they have nowhere else to go.
Satan is NOT in hell he is free
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