Author Topic: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)  (Read 9937 times)

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Offline eartheconomyspirit

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You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« on: December 26, 2011, 09:59:46 PM »
or  Why Jesus and not Christianity, Islam nor Judaism could be the answer for peace on earth for all.

We all share some fundamental capacities/instincts that when followed, lead to the best living outcomes.
This usually relates to losing the importance of self(ego), authentic selflessness, compassion for others, present in the moment and a sense of belonging etc...  Emotional, hereditory, spiritual whatever but certainly shared (like tears :-)), in my view. 

If one thinks of Jesus in the same way that Nelson Mandela, John Lennon or the Dalai Lama are generally held in regard,  I think we have a chance of knowing the person(not god), his original identity and motivations.

In 1945, a legitimately ancient text was discovered. It's called the Gospel of Thomas. Rather than the type of Gospel we witness in the Bible where you have "eye witness" accounts, the Gospel of Thomas consists of just 114 sayings, supposedly attributed to one man, Jesus. A potential for a direct conversation, if it were authentic.

Interestingly in the 1800's, Scholars began to theorize about the existence of a missing source for the synoptic bibles.  It has become known as the Q_Source.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source. This theory is born out of a need to reconcile variations in the synoptic Gospels of Mark, Luke and Matthew.

At least 64 of the 114 sayings from the Gospel of Thomas also appear across Mark, Luke and Matthew. Most are accurately similar. One though, in my opinion, clearly shows a misinterpretation.

The Gospel of Thomas

8. And Jesus said, "The person is like a wise fisherman who cast his net into the sea and drew it up from the sea full of little fish. Among them the wise fisherman discovered a fine large fish. He threw all the little fish back into the sea, and easily chose the large fish. Anyone here with two good ears had better listen!"

The GOT meaning relates to how in life we can often get caught up in many trivialities (small fish -  materiality ) until a time comes when we become aware of what's  really important (the big fish). I'm sure there will be people who can relate to that experience.

with the Bible Matthew 13:47–50 NIV:

47"Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish.
48When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away.
49This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50and throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Which do you suppose was based on the other? Notice the injection of the unprovable content and the "fear of god" element.

If I where to summarize the synoptic Gospels it would go something like this.

They each have the following characteristics.

1 They establish an association with john the baptist, record the deaths of John and/or Jesus, have a spin on a relationship to the jewish tradition and old testament prophesies.

2.They support the ideas of authority and leadership with teachers based on faith and obedient servitude.

3. They attempt to establish as creditable supernatural healing powers, a third party god and a special relationship through faith and authorship with the one who is identified by the authors as the son of God.

4. They use many (and add some extras - minor) of the parables attributed to Jesus. At least 64 of the 114 sayings in the Gospel of Thomas.
   
So what are the significant differences between the two versions of Jesus.

In my opinion, The Bible is the source that adds content that can never be proven or reproduced. The only hope of reconciling these parts of the Bible is through a "blind" faith. The authors take advantage of "the Jesus sayings" because they were possibly widely known and respected for their insight into the human condition.

What could be the possible motivation behind adding supernatural content. Perhaps it has something to do with who was in power when the Bible was brought to prominence and their ambitions. You know "History is only ever written by the victors". Could it be that this rebel Jesus (think Mandela) and his insight and conviction was a threat to two deeply intrenched authorities of the day. Judaism and Rome. What better way for Rome to quell the unrest and sort out the troublesome religions by taking ownership of this "new" wisdom.

The 50 odd Thomas sayings not included in the Biblical Tradition talk more to the human condition, a personal relationship with "spirituality" - you have to rely on instincts rather than words :-) , a knowable reality not a believed reality... Here are some examples

2 Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"


My instinct/interpretation

In the realm of the human condition there is something to be known/experienced, keep seeking until it is found.

Once found we are disturbed because this reality challenges the ego's perceptions of reality. Ever said anything that was meant with the greatest respect but taken as an offense. Our ego’s are easily disturbed, perhaps.

Don’t we, as we travel life’s roads, build up or manufacture our perception of reality in order to protect ourselves or possibly our ego identity. This defense strategy can be influenced by immature parenting, immature peer group advise or we could be well lead by authentic maturity. Perhaps perceptively we become our ego identity.

In the period of disturbance we marvel at the pervasiveness of this “new” reality, we see it in practice in many and come to realize a knowable spirit pervades humanity. We also see the faults and understand the cause of immaturity, greed, selfishness etc.... Two ends to the same conditional scale.

We are disturbed as we try to reconcile our ways to the ways of the instincts. Reconcile self interest and compassion. To trust that forgiveness is the best course even when logic says otherwise. Some need faith and other mechanisms to provide the discipline to follow the path prescribed by their realization.

The level of maturity is obvious. The "new" knowledge allows us to reign over all ,figuratively speaking, because we know the meaning and reality of an innate shared condition. When we resolve the disturbance by acting in accord with the new knowledge and the discrepancies it reveals we have peace and can rest.

A liberating realization for an individual. To much like anarchy for the Romans :-)

3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."   

     
This would cut out the need for a middle man and loss of the perks. Can't have that. Delete.

7 Jesus said, "Lucky is the lion that the human will eat, so that the lion becomes human. And foul is the human that the lion will eat, and the lion still will become human."

The biblical authors probably, like me, could not make sense of this one. However I think if you substitute ego for lion and use consume instead of eat ...

12 The disciples said to Jesus, "We know that you are going to leave us. Who will be our leader?"  Jesus said to them, "No matter where you are you are to go to James the Just, for whose sake heaven and earth came into being."


Doesn't fit with the plan. Delete. If people want to know god they'll have to have faith in our version.

15 Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."

Doesn't leave room for worshiping the Pharisees and the Romans. Anarchy. Delete.

17 Jesus said, "I will give you what no eye has seen, what no ear has heard, what no hand has touched, what has not arisen in the human heart."


Can't use it or make sense of it. Delete. Could Jesus meaning be the gift is the knowledge of a spiritual reality(enlightenment - confidence in instincts) that touches all humanity.

23 Jesus said, "I shall choose you, one from a thousand and two from ten thousand, and they will stand as a single one."

They'll think they're special. Delete.

Maybe Jesus is just another compassionate being, with a clear insight into the human condition and a rare gift of expressing that "living" condition. The Romans had a history of using religion to powers end. Think Pagan traditions.

Here's what I think Jesus was all about. Like volunteers who work their day job and then into the night helping their fellow beings, Jesus was passionate about humanities welfare and that's it. Simple. In the Gospel of Thomas, we get 50 additional insights into the "human condition". Each and everyone of the sayings is useful. There is no such thing as demons, devils, resurrection and if there were they'd have got a mention in the Gospel of Thomas.

Forget about the debate, after all it's a personal journey, and do something in accord with the "human condition" that makes the world a better place.

My suggestion. Drag something useful from Rome's History to restore the balance. Personally read and then debate the merit of the ICC's "Rome" statue. If you support it as the fundamental legal document for International Peace and Security then demand that China, India, Israel, US et al  join the other 76% of all nations (already signed) to make this the global rule regarding atrocity. Personally consider reading the Gospel of Thomas and make up your own mind and then rest. 

Is this a law 100% should all prescribe to

http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm

Peace (by law) - it's a choice and a responsibility :-)

 
   
« Last Edit: December 26, 2011, 11:56:34 PM by eartheconomyspirit »

Offline kin hell

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree :-)
« Reply #1 on: December 26, 2011, 10:27:48 PM »
....shame that you ruin interesting ideas with baseless/unnecessary presumptions about the members of this forum.

I haven't time to answer in any depth, but will watch this space when I get back.
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Nick

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree :-)
« Reply #2 on: December 26, 2011, 11:03:31 PM »
So where does this tree and barking come in? ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Samothec

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree :-)
« Reply #3 on: December 26, 2011, 11:06:02 PM »
Snipped for focus
Forget about the debate, after all it's a personal journey, and do something in accord with the "human condition" that makes the world a better place.

My suggestion. Drag something useful from Rome's History to restore the balance. Personally read and then debate the merit of the ICC's "Rome" statue. If you support it as the fundamental legal document for International Peace and Security then demand that China, India, Israel, US et al  join the other 76% of all nations (already signed) to make this the global rule regarding atrocity. Personally consider reading the Gospel of Thomas and make up your own mind and then rest. 

Is this a law 100% should all prescribe to
http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm
Peace (by law) - it's a choice and a responsibility :-)
 

It seemed like the first 2 paragraphs were the start of a discussion but it only lead into the proselytizing so I find them difficult to take seriously.

Either the first 2 paragraphs or this part above is really the only part you should have posted – more to the point and not forcibly proselytizing. Those of us who have read just about any of your posts knows that you practically live by the Gospel of St Thomas so posting a ton of quotes from it was just annoying.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree :-)
« Reply #4 on: December 26, 2011, 11:17:04 PM »
....shame that you ruin interesting ideas with baseless/unnecessary presumptions about the members of this forum.

I haven't time to answer in any depth, but will watch this space when I get back.

No harm intended. As always disregard that which has no base to your personal experience.

GOT 5 Jesus said, "Know what is in front of "your" face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you.

For there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. [And there is nothing buried that will not be raised."]
:-)

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree :-)
« Reply #5 on: December 26, 2011, 11:25:14 PM »
Snipped for focus
Forget about the debate, after all it's a personal journey, and do something in accord with the "human condition" that makes the world a better place.

My suggestion. Drag something useful from Rome's History to restore the balance. Personally read and then debate the merit of the ICC's "Rome" statue. If you support it as the fundamental legal document for International Peace and Security then demand that China, India, Israel, US et al  join the other 76% of all nations (already signed) to make this the global rule regarding atrocity. Personally consider reading the Gospel of Thomas and make up your own mind and then rest. 

Is this a law 100% should all prescribe to
http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/icc/statute/part-a.htm
Peace (by law) - it's a choice and a responsibility :-)
 

It seemed like the first 2 paragraphs were the start of a discussion but it only lead into the proselytizing so I find them difficult to take seriously.

Either the first 2 paragraphs or this part above is really the only part you should have posted – more to the point and not forcibly proselytizing. Those of us who have read just about any of your posts knows that you practically live by the Gospel of St Thomas so posting a ton of quotes from it was just annoying.

Think again, perhaps. I think your assessment is not correct. I'm trying to provide a rationale for the creation of the bible using Thomas as the basis to point out the flaws. I also think that your debating energies and intellect could be put to better use, once the question of God has been resolved (absolved). :-)

My opinion, Jesus was an insightful individual, wronged by history.

About the annoyance, sorry bout that, but that's within your domain. No harm intended :-)       

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree :-)
« Reply #6 on: December 26, 2011, 11:43:32 PM »
These two were included in the Bible. A zen influence is now shared demonstrating a common topic, perhaps.

91 They said to him, "Tell us who you are so that we may believe in you."
He said to them, "You examine the face of heaven and earth, but you have not come to know the one who is in your presence, and you do not know how to examine the present moment.”

Zen! Ah, all rivers do run to the ocean, perhaps.

It is my opinion that Jesus speaks of a single shared spirituality often witnessed through time and given various brands. Meditation, oneness, rest, sabbath (not necessarily sunday or saturday but just rest - see next saying), compassion, peace, joy , light ...All existing in fleeting moments of a living reality.   Ohmmm. :-)

27 "If you do not fast from the world, you will not find the kingdom. If you do not observe the sabbath as a sabbath you will not see the Father."

Sabbath(n.) Fig.: A time of rest or repose; intermission of pain, effort, sorrow, or the like.

The importance of meditation in preserving the spiritual integrity.  Moments of meditation, free wheeling the mind whilst remaining alert with the senses is possibly important for maintaining the connection to spirituality/human instincts, perhaps.

Offline bgb

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree :-)
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2011, 11:56:46 PM »
My opinion, Jesus was a fictional character in an old story.
The whole point of science is that most of it is uncertain. That's why science is exciting--because we don't know. Science is all about things we don't understand. The public, of course, imagines science is just a set of facts. But it's not.  Freeman Dyson

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree :-)
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2011, 12:11:03 AM »
My opinion, Jesus was a fictional character in an old story.

Why then was an ancient document discovered in 1945 that talks about sayings from a person called Jesus that also appear in the Biblical Tradition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Thomas

You mean to say that the person that wrote this text, some 2000 years ago, came up with this fictional character, changed the spin from the biblical spin, all so we could have this debate.

Now let say, that your right. That ignores the value of the sayings. Perhaps let's call him Bill and consider he sayings merit :-)

What is almost certainly fictional though is the Devil, Angels, hell et al. Jesus though? I disagree with you based on the physical documentary evidence. What independant evidence, do you offer in support of your claim. 


Online natlegend

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #9 on: December 27, 2011, 01:39:15 AM »
Ok, I'll play. Some guy called Jesus DID exist. But was he a god? "What independant evidence, do you offer in support of your claim?"

Hmm?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #10 on: December 27, 2011, 01:59:23 AM »
ees, you are clearly impressed by this jesus guy. And as you know, most of the rest of here at WWGHA think that either he didn't exist or, if he did, that he was just a regular guy hyping his variation of current religions. Some of the stuff he said was nice, some of it wasn't. But in a modern world inhabited by hackers and bankers and politicians, he's not all that relevant.

If he was the real deal, he was a pretty lousy choice because he was unable to get his message across to same fairly intelligent folks. Both back then and today. That most who follow him customize his words to mean whatever they want wise words to mean, we are forced to hear about a large variety of guys named jesus. That he is usually portrayed as a white guy with blonde hair sort of proves that he exists in the mind of most westerners as one of us. That a relatively small number of folks descended from his culture shows, at a minimum, a fairly major family squabble. Not impressive for sons of gods.

Relying on 2,000 year old stories, true or not, to guide us through this century is like using Homer's Illiad as an instruction manual of an Android tablet. Any god who cannot recognize the relevance of timely info isn't very good at what he does, and any god who gets all excited about being worshipped AND big on faith is unclear on at least one concept. Trying to impress me with the words of your lord is therefore somewhat doomed, timeline wise. In a world where I'm told the freewill of a rapist trumps the free will of a woman or child not to be raped, and such indiscretions daily, along with the deeds of freewill totting murderers, robbers, etc, it sort of means to me that either there is no god involved (most likely) or that his conceit is more important than this ability to act. He ain't gonna get no brownie points from me for such high-faluting falderal.

My reason for being an atheist has not a darned thing to do with your jesus or his pop. They are just one (two, three?) of thousands of claimed gods, and while you and I agree fully about the rest of them, we are at odds over this one little detail. Not counting the mormons, who updated the story a century and a half ago, and the scientologists, who are so out of it my spell checker won't tell me how good my guess at their name was, we are mostly told by most religions that all this happened long ago. And hence we get serious dudes like you wanting so much to demonstrate how some little historical detail couldn't possibly be interpreted as anything but proof positive that your story is a good one.

People praying to jesus got blown up in Nigeria on Sunday by people praying to allah. This same-old, same-old response from believers to other believers is getting older than their stories. As long asa few million versions of you continue to tell a few million versions of the truth, we shall get to add yet more victims of religious violence and oppression to our already long list of victims from murder, mayhem, earthquakes and extreme sports.

Preach all you want. I'll preach right back.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #11 on: December 27, 2011, 03:01:37 AM »
Ok, I'll play. Some guy called Jesus DID exist. But was he a god? "What independant evidence, do you offer in support of your claim?"

Hmm?

No, He is not god. God is probably more a concept for the human condition/spirituality rather than an identity, in my opinion. It would be the source for the creative spark and the light bulb moments, perhaps.

Here's what the Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas has to say about the topic.

3 Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the (Father's) kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is within you and it is outside you.

When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty."

An internal  quality to be known. Spirituality, compassion/ emotions/human condition/psychology perhaps.

Thanks for playing   :-)

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #12 on: December 27, 2011, 03:29:53 AM »
ees, you are clearly impressed by this jesus guy.

pp, Yes, but only the from the sayings in the Gospel of Thomas. Not a fan of the mystical stuff you get in the bible.

Quote
And as you know, most of the rest of here at WWGHA think that either he didn't exist or, if he did, that he was just a regular guy hyping his variation of current religions. Some of the stuff he said was nice, some of it wasn't. But in a modern world inhabited by hackers and bankers and politicians, he's not all that relevant.

Agree in part  pp. Just a regular guy who did exist. All of the GOT stuff is "nice" in my opinion. Some of the biblical stuff is not nice. The GOT is as relevant as the wisdom of the Dalai Lama.

Quote
If he was the real deal, he was a pretty lousy choice because he was unable to get his message across to same fairly intelligent folks. Both back then and today. That most who follow him customize his words to mean whatever they want wise words to mean, we are forced to hear about a large variety of guys named jesus. That he is usually portrayed as a white guy with blonde hair sort of proves that he exists in the mind of most westerners as one of us. That a relatively small number of folks descended from his culture shows, at a minimum, a fairly major family squabble. Not impressive for sons of gods.

From a spiritual/emotional/human condition perspective I'd argue that race and culture aren't relevant to the discussion.

Quote
Relying on 2,000 year old stories, true or not, to guide us through this century is like using Homer's Illiad as an instruction manual of an Android tablet. Any god who cannot recognize the relevance of timely info isn't very good at what he does, and any god who gets all excited about being worshipped AND big on faith is unclear on at least one concept. Trying to impress me with the words of your lord is therefore somewhat doomed, timeline wise. In a world where I'm told the freewill of a rapist trumps the free will of a woman or child not to be raped, and such indiscretions daily, along with the deeds of freewill totting murderers, robbers, etc, it sort of means to me that either there is no god involved (most likely) or that his conceit is more important than this ability to act. He ain't gonna get no brownie points from me for such high-faluting falderal.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my article. The sayings in the Gospel of Thomas talk about a knowable condition not one that you accept on faith. An example from other spiritual pursuits could be the concept of enlightenment.  pp, he is not my Lord rather someone has left an example that's hard to live up to. Again in the same vein as the Dalai Lama. I don't wish to impress anyone. I just think there may be more to consider. In the matter of crime an behavior, don't hold your breath waiting for a god solution. However, literature like the GOT would suggest we would do better to improve our laws and take it on as a personal responsibility to help reduce/report crime. 

Quote
My reason for being an atheist has not a darned thing to do with your jesus or his pop. They are just one (two, three?) of thousands of claimed gods, and while you and I agree fully about the rest of them, we are at odds over this one little detail. Not counting the mormons, who updated the story a century and a half ago, and the scientologists, who are so out of it my spell checker won't tell me how good my guess at their name was, we are mostly told by most religions that all this happened long ago. And hence we get serious dudes like you wanting so much to demonstrate how some little historical detail couldn't possibly be interpreted as anything but proof positive that your story is a good one.

It is a reasonable hypothesis, in my opinion. What you think of it, is up to you.   

Quote
People praying to jesus got blown up in Nigeria on Sunday by people praying to allah. This same-old, same-old response from believers to other believers is getting older than their stories. As long asa few million versions of you continue to tell a few million versions of the truth, we shall get to add yet more victims of religious violence and oppression to our already long list of victims from murder, mayhem, earthquakes and extreme sports.

And yet all of us together (putting religion aside because God didn't do anything for those people)  can't seem to come up with a plan to take action to help someone who is just as worthy as us.  My suggestion: Use inspired law (such as the ICC's Rome) and use it as the point of focus on all atrocity.

Quote
Preach all you want. I'll preach right back.

You gotta love the idea of democracy :-)

Offline hickdive

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2011, 03:33:59 AM »
I've searched the web for an image of someone oblivious of the frisbee that has just cleared the top of their head but to no avail.

The vast majority of people on this site are atheists, they do not believe in gods. If you do not believe that this jesus was god (or some part of the christian trinity) then you concur with the majority of people here. The question of missing gospels the interpretation thereof, psychology or whatever is an irrelevance. Someone could make exactly the same claims for the sayings of the Dalai Lama, Mao, Ghandi et al but that makes absolutely no impact on the central question on the existence of supernatural deities.

Essentially you have turned up in a garden where all the dogs are barking up one real tree, erected an artificial christmas tree and then insitsted that all the dogs should come over and bark up it instead. That isn't going to work and patronising people who point that fact out doesn't do you any good at all.

Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline pingnak

Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2011, 03:53:18 AM »
Pretend for a moment that the bible is NOT considered to be a reliable source, lacking any veracity to this target audience.

It makes the game more interesting.

Besides, there's a whole forest of other religions that you're missing for your favorite, well urinated trees. 

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.5 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand

Not to mention all of the THOUSANDS of historical religions and their gods and demons (though gods and demons are often interchangeable, according to which religions are describing which deities).
http://www.godchecker.com/

Who knows?  Maybe Huitzilopochtli is getting hungry, and the sun will go out 'cuz we haven't been sacrificing to him in a while.  Better sharpen up a flint knife and start chopping people up.


Offline Anfauglir

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree :-)
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2011, 04:30:47 AM »
My opinion, Jesus was an insightful individual, wronged by history.

Fair enough.

So what?

We have a normal guy, who maybe was real, and who is reported to have had some good ideas.  <shrugs> There have been many others, before and since, who have also had some good ideas.  Many of them actually DID something as well.  And not all of them at the same time said the bad stuff this Jesus bloke is supposed to have said, nor carry the baggage that any discussion of his rightness must carry.

Bottom line, EES, you'll be very, very unlikely to get any support here.  Partly because we disagree that even if he existed that Jesus was anything special. 

But also, to be honest, because we are all waiting for the regular "Christian switcheroo" where we agree Jesus was a good man and then discover that is being taken as proof of his divinity.  Like I say, Jesus carries a whole mess of baggage, and frankly there are enough real good men without that baggage that I can choose to admire.

Jesus just ain't needed.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline hickdive

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2011, 05:41:23 AM »


Clearly reaching for a frisbee, sadly the OP isn't even aware of the frisbee's presence ;-)
Stupidity, unlike intelligence, has no limits.

Offline Historicity

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2011, 08:30:03 AM »
Who knows?  Maybe Huitzilopochtli is getting hungry, and the sun will go out 'cuz we haven't been sacrificing to him in a while.  Better sharpen up a flint knife and start chopping people up.

Oh, that's the reason we've been having global warming.

BTW, on another forum some years ago when California had briefly had gay marriage legal there were Mississippi floods in the spring which wiped out some levees.  Some guy wrote that was God's punishment for gay rights.  Someone responded that was illogical.  I cut&pasted a section of the Illiad that if you build and earthwork and you don't sacrifice 100 cattle (and distribute the beef to the poor) to the Greco-Roman Gods they will -- in their good time -- will send a flood to wipe it out.  Thus the Greek encampment in Troy remained at the seaside for many years but then Poseidon unleashed an earthquake (He is the God of Earthquakes) which made a tsunami (He is the God of the Sea) to remove that blasphemy.

And, I noted, I hadn't heard that anyone had vouchsafed the levees in the Mississippi with sacrifices to the Gods.



Offline kcrady

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2011, 08:36:55 AM »
Sure, the argument could be made that the historical Jesus was some kindly Zen Jewdhist sage, but...well...so what?  Let's say he was "like the Dalai Lama."  We have the Dalai Lama, alive, now, today.  He has written entire books, in contrast to the tiny collection of pithy sayings the GoT offers us.

Jesus completely pales in comparison to ancient Greco-Roman thinkers like Lucretius.  If his description of the atomic nature of matter in On the Nature of the Universe were found in the Bible, Christian apologists would be shouting from the rooftops that they had proof of revelation from Almighty Yahweh.  If you want mysticism, there's Pythagoras, Plato, Plotinus, and Iamblichus, all of whom offer greater depth and breadth than Jesus.  And that's just the Greco-Roman West.  China, India, and Japan have whole millennia-old philosophical and mystical traditions waiting to be explored by any seeker after ancient wisdom.  The scraps attributed to Jesus are pitiful in comparison.

The only reason Jesus "matters" at all is because a powerful cult-cum-state religion worshiped him as a god.  Even Christians didn't find his teachings, whatever they might have been, to be as worthy of preservation as the teachings of Saul of Tarsus.  On his own merits, Jesus ought to be at best an insignificant footnote known only to antiquarians and scholars.  Few members of this Forum will find any reason to cling to him or try to recruit him to our side as a "wise teacher."  Oh, and don't forget that we have science.  We have no need of Jesus.

"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2011, 08:37:45 AM »
I've searched the web for an image of someone oblivious of the frisbee that has just cleared the top of their head but to no avail.

What can I say. keep looking

Quote

The vast majority of people on this site are atheists, they do not believe in gods. If you do not believe that this jesus was god (or some part of the christian trinity) then you concur with the majority of people here. The question of missing gospels the interpretation thereof, psychology or whatever is an irrelevance. Someone could make exactly the same claims for the sayings of the Dalai Lama, Mao, Ghandi et al but that makes absolutely no impact on the central question on the existence of supernatural deities.

I concur. Before you take it upon yourself to decree that something is an irrelevance should you not first discredit it. The GOT foes to the heart of the central question because it challenges the validity of one of the main sources, the Bible. p.s. there aren,t any supernatural anthings in my opinion.


Quote
Essentially you have turned up in a garden where all the dogs are barking up one real tree, erected an artificial christmas tree and then insitsted that all the dogs should come over and bark up it instead. That isn't going to work and patronising people who point that fact out doesn't do you any good at all.

I disagree. :-)

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2011, 08:41:09 AM »
Pretend for a moment that the bible is NOT considered to be a reliable source, lacking any veracity to this target audience.

It makes the game more interesting.

Besides, there's a whole forest of other religions that you're missing for your favorite, well urinated trees. 

http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html
Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.5 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand

Not to mention all of the THOUSANDS of historical religions and their gods and demons (though gods and demons are often interchangeable, according to which religions are describing which deities).
http://www.godchecker.com/

Who knows?  Maybe Huitzilopochtli is getting hungry, and the sun will go out 'cuz we haven't been sacrificing to him in a while.  Better sharpen up a flint knife and start chopping people up.



What about the religion of atheism.:-) I feel like I am against a group with a fixed ideology. Sound familiar. Just reacting to what I'm given :-)

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree :-)
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2011, 08:51:06 AM »
My opinion, Jesus was an insightful individual, wronged by history.

Fair enough.

So what?

We have a normal guy, who maybe was real, and who is reported to have had some good ideas.  <shrugs> There have been many others, before and since, who have also had some good ideas.  Many of them actually DID something as well.  And not all of them at the same time said the bad stuff this Jesus bloke is supposed to have said, nor carry the baggage that any discussion of his rightness must carry.

Bottom line, EES, you'll be very, very unlikely to get any support here.  Partly because we disagree that even if he existed that Jesus was anything special. 

But also, to be honest, because we are all waiting for the regular "Christian switcheroo" where we agree Jesus was a good man and then discover that is being taken as proof of his divinity.  Like I say, Jesus carries a whole mess of baggage, and frankly there are enough real good men without that baggage that I can choose to admire.

Jesus just ain't needed.

I am not looking for support. Just providing a view about alternate verifiable information. No switheroo here. In my opinion, the sayings in the a gospel of Thomas are insightful regardless of who the author was.  my point, if you read the opening article, was that the baggage is in the Bible and I question it's validity because of the inconsistency between it and the Gospel of Thomas Discoverd in 1945.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2011, 08:53:47 AM »


Clearly reaching for a frisbee, sadly the OP isn't even aware of the frisbee's presence ;-)

  ;)

Offline kcrady

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2011, 08:55:46 AM »
What about the religion of atheism.:-) I feel like I am against a group with a fixed ideology. Sound familiar. Just reacting to what I'm given :-)

Awwww, yeah, the ol' "You guys are dogmatic fundamentalists too!" canard.  &)

The reason we're not all jumping on your bandwagon is that we don't have any residual reverence for Jesus that makes us feel a need to salvage what scraps of his teachings we can.  The teachings attributed to Jesus just aren't that great, once all the halos and angels of Christianity are stripped away.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline kin hell

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2011, 09:00:09 AM »
......although being the founding zombie deserves some respect.



otherwise

If there be nothing new, but that which is
Hath been before, how are our brains beguiled,
Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss
The second burden of a former child. Shakespeare
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2011, 09:03:10 AM »
Sure, the argument could be made that the historical Jesus was some kindly Zen Jewdhist sage, but...well...so what?  Let's say he was "like the Dalai Lama."  We have the Dalai Lama, alive, now, today.  He has written entire books, in contrast to the tiny collection of pithy sayings the GoT offers us.

Jesus completely pales in comparison to ancient Greco-Roman thinkers like Lucretius.  If his description of the atomic nature of matter in On the Nature of the Universe were found in the Bible, Christian apologists would be shouting from the rooftops that they had proof of revelation from Almighty Yahweh.  If you want mysticism, there's Pythagoras, Plato, Plotinus, and Iamblichus, all of whom offer greater depth and breadth than Jesus.  And that's just the Greco-Roman West.  China, India, and Japan have whole millennia-old philosophical and mystical traditions waiting to be explored by any seeker after ancient wisdom.  The scraps attributed to Jesus are pitiful in comparison.

The only reason Jesus "matters" at all is because a powerful cult-cum-state religion worshiped him as a god.  Even Christians didn't find his teachings, whatever they might have been, to be as worthy of preservation as the teachings of Saul of Tarsus.  On his own merits, Jesus ought to be at best an insignificant footnote known only to antiquarians and scholars.  Few members of this Forum will find any reason to cling to him or try to recruit him to our side as a "wise teacher."  Oh, and don't forget that we have science.  We have no need of Jesus.

That would be Saul (Paul) the ex roman... Hmmm adds to my conspiracy theory. BTW I am not advocating the Bible you,ll need to have read the GOT to assess it,s worth :-)

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2011, 09:05:33 AM »
What about the religion of atheism.:-) I feel like I am against a group with a fixed ideology. Sound familiar. Just reacting to what I'm given :-)

Awwww, yeah, the ol' "You guys are dogmatic fundamentalists too!" canard.  &)

The reason we're not all jumping on your bandwagon is that we don't have any residual reverence for Jesus that makes us feel a need to salvage what scraps of his teachings we can.  The teachings attributed to Jesus just aren't that great, once all the halos and angels of Christianity are stripped away.

Is your comment based on a reading of the GOT? Just asking :-)

Offline jetson

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2011, 09:07:41 AM »
S, shall we form a religion around the GOT?  I know you're not advocating such a thing, but you seem to be missing the very important point - that even from the GOT, Jesus was nothing special, no matter how good you think his words were.

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: You're all barking up the wrong tree - possibly :-)
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2011, 09:13:50 AM »
......although being the founding zombie deserves some respect.



otherwise

If there be nothing new, but that which is
Hath been before, how are our brains beguiled,
Which, labouring for invention, bear amiss
The second burden of a former child. Shakespeare

yet is it invention or evidence
We may never know until second burden is borne. :-)