Author Topic: Question for Liberal Christians  (Read 1281 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline flapdoodle64

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
  • Darwins +39/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • My Movie Reviews
Question for Liberal Christians
« on: December 22, 2011, 02:13:37 PM »
Most Christian denominations conduct at least some discrimination against gays...many still bar 'practicing' gays from the clergy or high office, Catholicism still forbids 'practicing' gays from communion (as well as high church officials continuously making hateful anti-gay remarks), and few churches offer the Sacriment of Marriage to same sex couples. 

Any denomination that operates in any of these or similar ways is guilty of discrimination, and of assigning second-class citizenship to gays.  This is a sometimes subtle, but nonetheless real, instance of systematic denigration and humiliation of an abritrary group of people based on cherry-picking of certain Biblical passages. 

Virtually all educated people in the world know that being gay or straight is not a choice, but rather a condition of birth. 

Straight Christian parents cannot force their children to be straight. 

Therefore, Christian parents can give birth to gay children. 

If you are a Christian, how will you feel when your kid starts to come out, knowing that for years you have been supporting an organization that denigrates and humiliates gay people?

How will you feel knowing that your kid has gone or will go to religious instruction that promotes an institution that denigrates and humiliates gay people?

How about if isn't your own kid, but your friend's kid or a niece of nephew?

Do you ever wonder why so many of the institutions claiming to be god's representatives here on earth have such a long history of picking out certain groups, like gay people, brown people, Jews, Muslims, etc. to denigrate or humiliate?

Genuinely interested in how liberal Christians respond to this.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 02:29:52 PM by flapdoodle64 »

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2011, 02:32:44 PM »
I'm wondering how my brother and SIL will. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline flapdoodle64

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
  • Darwins +39/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • My Movie Reviews
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2011, 12:04:02 PM »
Yeah, my brother and all my in-laws are Xians, and I have a mess of nieces and nephews...most of whom are being raised Catholic.

My brother and all my in-laws are liberal.

I have to admit, for the sake of preserving the family relationships I have, I am not going to personally broach the subject. 

Funny thing about criticizing family...I didn't even yell at my brother when he had his son circumcized. 

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2047
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 02:36:07 PM »
So far, my relatives who've come out have been in catholic families. I know its caused problems in their immediate family, but no one's been disowned or anything. Unfortunately I don't live close enough to any of them to know the details of their progress, or whether its affected religious beliefs or practices.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline flapdoodle64

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
  • Darwins +39/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • My Movie Reviews
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 04:41:34 PM »
I think there is a tendency to look at these things from the stanpoint of: Is the Christian family cool with Billy being gay? That's fine to look at it from that perspective.

But what I'm wondering about:

What's it like for a gay young person to realize his family has been tacitly supporting an organization that systematically denigrates and demonizes gays? What's it feel like to contemplate that?

What's it like for a parent to realize that he's been supporing an organization that systematically denigrates and demonizes his own son or daughter?

Individual Christians love to show how tolerant they are.  But they don't talk much about the fact that they support, tacitly or otherwise, institutions that impose sexual apartied upon the population. 

Online One Above All

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9459
  • Darwins +224/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #5 on: December 23, 2011, 05:00:58 PM »
What's it like for a gay young person to realize his family has been tacitly supporting an organization that systematically denigrates and demonizes gays? What's it feel like to contemplate that?

I can answer this:
Doesn't feel good. I feel betrayed and angry that my mother family (indirectly) helps discriminate against people who have done nothing wrong.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2011, 05:20:14 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline flapdoodle64

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
  • Darwins +39/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • My Movie Reviews
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #6 on: December 23, 2011, 05:10:58 PM »
@Lucifer

Thanks for the personal and honest response.

Offline jtp56

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
  • Darwins +4/-66
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #7 on: December 23, 2011, 05:59:50 PM »
The homosexual belongs in church, just not in a position of leadership.

The gay bar in town doesn't want me in there preaching the gospel, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind if I came in a bought a drink.  I don't see that as discrimination.

By the way, I have a niece who is a lesbian and an Uncle who is a homosexual.  Doesn't make me feel any different.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online One Above All

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9459
  • Darwins +224/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #8 on: December 23, 2011, 06:07:41 PM »
The homosexual belongs in church,

You can keep the churches to yourself, thank you very much. I belong where I am right now.

just not in a position of leadership.

Why not? Will they turn everyone into homosexuals as well?

The gay bar in town doesn't want me in there preaching the gospel, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind if I came in a bought a drink.  I don't see that as discrimination.

False analogy. Preaching is not allowed because it's a bar, not a place to preach. However, you could certainly get a job working at a bar and even end up owning the place, regardless of your sexual orientation.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline flapdoodle64

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
  • Darwins +39/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • My Movie Reviews
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #9 on: December 23, 2011, 06:09:19 PM »
@jtp

I appreciate the fact that you are open and direct regarding the bigotry of the god you worship.  Thanks!

Offline OldChurchGuy

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1326
  • Darwins +89/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • One of those theists who enjoys exchanging ideas
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2011, 07:53:03 AM »
Quote
If you are a Christian, how will you feel when your kid starts to come out, knowing that for years you have been supporting an organization that denigrates and humiliates gay people?
For me, it depends on the denomination and the specific congregation.   If the child comes out and is a member of the Southern Baptist, for example, there will probably be all kinds of repurcussions.  If the child and family are members of the United Church of Christ (UCC), for example, it is probably not an issue.

Quote
How will you feel knowing that your kid has gone or will go to religious instruction that promotes an institution that denigrates and humiliates gay people?

See above

Quote
How about if isn't your own kid, but your friend's kid or a niece of nephew?

See above

Quote
Do you ever wonder why so many of the institutions claiming to be god's representatives here on earth have such a long history of picking out certain groups, like gay people, brown people, Jews, Muslims, etc. to denigrate or humiliate?


I am not convinced such people embrace the same religious beliefs and understandings I have.  Unfortunately, history is frought with people mixing their personal biases, fears, and/or political views with religion to further a personal agenda.  Fortunately, I am above such things.  [exit admiring my self-righteous humility]

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion - Dalai Lama

Offline free

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +9/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • We didn't land on Mt Sinai, Mt Sinai landed on us!
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2011, 08:37:07 AM »
The homosexual belongs in church, just not in a position of leadership.

The gay bar in town doesn't want me in there preaching the gospel, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind if I came in a bought a drink.  I don't see that as discrimination.

By the way, I have a niece who is a lesbian and an Uncle who is a homosexual.  Doesn't make me feel any different.

Very bad analogy.  If a church had a problem with a gay person coming in and preaching homosexuality, I could see their point.  Just like they wouldn't like a football fan coming in and preaching the greatness of their team, or a John Grisham fan coming in to talk about the newest book!

To make your analogy better and since the Church says gay people can't receive communion and in other ways are discriminated against.  Imagine the gay bar said you can come to the bar, but you can't have a drink and they will openly be talking about how people of your religion are amoral hedonists! 

Now is that discrimination?

Offline kin hell

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5368
  • Darwins +151/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • - .... . .-. . /.. ... / -. --- / --. --- -.. ...
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2011, 11:51:15 AM »
bm
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #13 on: December 27, 2011, 10:11:37 AM »
The homosexual belongs in church, just not in a position of leadership.

The gay bar in town doesn't want me in there preaching the gospel, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind if I came in a bought a drink.  I don't see that as discrimination.

By the way, I have a niece who is a lesbian and an Uncle who is a homosexual.  Doesn't make me feel any different.

your magic book that supposedly reveals god's word says that homosexuals deserve death repeatedly.    It's rather pathetic on how various sects desperately try to ignore the parts of the bible they don't like.  We have the more "liberal" churches deciding that their god didn't really mean those parts that show how a primitive society hated certain people.   and of course, we have other Christians just as sure that their god really didn't mean the tolerance that JC supposedly preached either.  Ridiulous, all claiming that their imaginary best friend is the only real one. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2047
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #14 on: December 27, 2011, 10:46:37 AM »
I wonder if liberal christians are closer in their philosophy to deism than to bible-believing christianity? I haven't made a study of the language involved, but if you add Jesus into the description of deism, it sounds closer to what liberals believe.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline gonegolfing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1224
  • Darwins +23/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • God ?...Don't even get me started !
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #15 on: December 27, 2011, 11:01:22 AM »
Quote
If you are a Christian, how will you feel when your kid starts to come out, knowing that for years you have been supporting an organization that denigrates and humiliates gay people?
For me, it depends on the denomination and the specific congregation.   If the child comes out and is a member of the Southern Baptist, for example, there will probably be all kinds of repurcussions.  If the child and family are members of the United Church of Christ (UCC), for example, it is probably not an issue.

Quote
How will you feel knowing that your kid has gone or will go to religious instruction that promotes an institution that denigrates and humiliates gay people?

See above

Quote
How about if isn't your own kid, but your friend's kid or a niece of nephew?

See above

Quote
Do you ever wonder why so many of the institutions claiming to be god's representatives here on earth have such a long history of picking out certain groups, like gay people, brown people, Jews, Muslims, etc. to denigrate or humiliate?


I am not convinced such people embrace the same religious beliefs and understandings I have.  Unfortunately, history is frought with people mixing their personal biases, fears, and/or political views with religion to further a personal agenda.  Fortunately, I am above such things.  [exit admiring my self-righteous humility]

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy


OCG, you're answering for others....... as the questions asks though, what about you and if it were your kid ??   ;)
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11425
  • Darwins +272/-77
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #16 on: December 27, 2011, 11:02:39 AM »
I have an aunt who works for the Southern Baptist Convention, and she just found out from her son, who's now 24 years old, that he's gay.  She, that I heard through the vine(s), has accepted him anyway but I know the place she works for does not in any way which is probably why he waited 'til he was 24 to tell her.

-Nam

Offline flapdoodle64

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
  • Darwins +39/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • My Movie Reviews
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2011, 03:45:54 PM »
Thanks for the post, Nam, but how does her son feel about the fact that his mom works for an organization that demonizes and discriminates against gay people? 

Does she have any awareness that she works for an organization that demonizes and discriminates against gay people? 

Lots of stories about swell Xians 'accepting' their gay kids...but what's it like to face the fact that you belong to an organization that demonizes and discriminates against gay people? 


Online One Above All

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9459
  • Darwins +224/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2011, 03:52:59 PM »
Lots of stories about swell Xians 'accepting' their gay kids...

What's with the quotation marks?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline flapdoodle64

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
  • Darwins +39/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • My Movie Reviews
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2012, 04:16:38 PM »
I put the quotes in because it seems to me like there is a sort of presumptiveness involved whenever a hetero 'accepts' a gay friend or relative.  A sort of subtle form of superiority...as if it is the right of the dominant group to 'accept' others into this group. 

None of my gay friends ever talk say they 'accept' me as a heterosexual.  I simply assume that if they like me, then they accept me as I am.  [Note to any of my gay friends who might read this: if you don't accept my heterosexuality, please chime in, as that would be an interesting discussion.]

If someone is truly our friend, if we truly have a family relationship with a person, then it should not be possible to claim such a relationship and still judge them as inferior, defective or deviant just because of their sexual preference.

Yet when a person 'comes out' and tells their friends and family that they are gay, we have anxiety that the person's friends and family will 'accept' them.  And so when they do 'accept' this person who they have known for all these years, we have this little feel-good moment. 

In a similar manner, we tend to think of religious institutions as 'tolerant' if they do not actively chase gays out the door, even when those institutions practice various forms of sexual apartied. 

A few years ago, I began to question the way the whole situation is framed.

Online One Above All

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9459
  • Darwins +224/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2012, 04:21:57 PM »
I don't want to derail this thread so I'll just say that I understand and somewhat agree with your point.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Online Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11985
  • Darwins +251/-31
  • Gender: Male
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2012, 04:14:51 AM »
I was just making that point to my girlfriend today, flapdoodle, when we were talking about her Catholic parents.  She said that the church she went to preached "tolerance" of other cultural traditions and beliefs.  I asked her what was offensive about those beliefs that required tolerance?

She got the point.
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

Offline flapdoodle64

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
  • Darwins +39/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • My Movie Reviews
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2012, 12:29:10 PM »
Catholicism is such an interesting phemomenon.  Most of the Catholics I personally know are extremely loving, generous and, on a personal level, pro-diversity...

And I know of several Catholic parishes where openly gay people get Communion. 

Yet I know of no Catholics who withold monetary offerings or offer resistance to any of the church's numerous policies of bigotry and hate-mongering. 

Just yesterday I read that the church is taking in a few thousand former Anglicans/Episcoplaians who left thier former church soley because it allows openly gay people to become bishops.  Here is the church opening its arms and coffers to a bunch of militant bigots!  I would love to hear what the gay laity of the Catholic Church have to say about this, after all the years they have patiently spent praying and quietly suggesting that just maybe the Church grant theme equality. 

But that is the genius of the Catholic Church, to practice some of the most cynical and obvious bigotry and hate-mongering I've ever seen, and yet to somehow keep the laity unwilling to offer the slightest resistance. 

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #23 on: January 03, 2012, 02:26:46 PM »
But that is the genius of the Catholic Church, to practice some of the most cynical and obvious bigotry and hate-mongering I've ever seen, and yet to somehow keep the laity unwilling to offer the slightest resistance.

that's what fear and greed will do.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11425
  • Darwins +272/-77
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2012, 10:35:01 AM »
Quote from: flapdoodle64
Thanks for the post, Nam, but how does her son feel about the fact that his mom works for an organization that demonizes and discriminates against gay people? 

Does she have any awareness that she works for an organization that demonizes and discriminates against gay people? 

Lots of stories about swell Xians 'accepting' their gay kids...but what's it like to face the fact that you belong to an organization that demonizes and discriminates against gay people? 

I think the real question is: has she told the people that she works for that her son is gay?  And, if not: why not?

-Nam

Offline flapdoodle64

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 380
  • Darwins +39/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • My Movie Reviews
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2012, 06:36:15 PM »
Here's the latest example of Christianity denigrating and dehumanizing gays:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/09/pope-benedict-xvi-gay-marriage_n_1194515.html?ref=mostpopular

The Catholic Church is not alone of course...most other Christian Churches refuse marriage to gays and remain silent regarding the sexual apartiet imposed by secular law in most US states. 

A few years back I was reading an essay by Phillip Roth and he talked about how, during the Holocaust, it was necessary for the Germans to humiliate and dehumanize the Jews so as to make the other atrocities of the era possible. 

I don't want to employ hyperbole, but when I see, in our so-called enlightened age, powerful institutions like world-wide churches going out of their way to denigrate and humiliate a group of people, I shudder. 

Do I think that churches intend for mass extermination of gays? No. 

But it is clear that most of the Christian churches maintain an investment in the second-class citizenship of gays.  And the willingless of so-called liberal Christians to maintain tithes and other supports to these churches fascinates me. 

Offline Lorax

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 117
  • Darwins +4/-7
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #26 on: February 03, 2012, 01:50:00 AM »
Conservatives preform a valuable function.

That is: they conserve

Progressives also serve a valuable function in that they cause us to progress.


It's a very good thing in my opinion that somebody is out there in society who will say "are you sure about this? Whenever progressives propose a change. But it can also be a very bad thing when those same people dig their heels into the ground after the society answers "Yes we're sure"

Online One Above All

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 9459
  • Darwins +224/-30
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #27 on: February 03, 2012, 03:22:56 AM »
Conservatives preform a valuable function.

That is: they conserve

Progressives also serve a valuable function in that they cause us to progress.


It's a very good thing in my opinion that somebody is out there in society who will say "are you sure about this? Whenever progressives propose a change. But it can also be a very bad thing when those same people dig their heels into the ground after the society answers "Yes we're sure"

It is a good thing, but the problem is that your analogy does not hold. Standing in the way of progress isn't all they do. They want to take us backwards, in moral and ethical values[1], as well as scientific development[2].
 1. Women being in control of what grows in their womb? Fuck it. And if they don't get diagnosed with cancer early as a result, fuck that too. And if their children need support because the parents simply can't afford to care for them? Fuck the children.
 2. The Earth was created 6000 years ago by YHWH, is flat and doesn't move, the sky is as hard as cast bronze and is spread out like a tent, global warming doesn't exist.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2047
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: Question for Liberal Christians
« Reply #28 on: February 03, 2012, 10:28:27 AM »
It is a good thing, but the problem is that your analogy does not hold. Standing in the way of progress isn't all they do. They want to take us backwards, in moral and ethical values...

I think the problem is in definitions. The right wing nutjobs who want to take us back to the dark ages are not truly conservative. I can't think of a good word, but they don't want to conserve, they want to regress. A true conservative is more moderate than that. That's why I call so-called conservative religious right-wing folks the radical right. I'm reading a book entitled Major Pettigrew's Last Stand. It's a lovely story about a retired major in England, who meets and befriends a Pakistani woman. He's a true British conservative in the beginning, whose world is expanded as he gets to know this woman.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.