Author Topic: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]  (Read 1866 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« on: December 20, 2011, 06:52:27 PM »
Hello, I read every chapter of your book. Fascinating. I have much to ponder. I hope you will e mail me back a response since I dont know if/when I'll be getting back to your site.   If I understand you correctly then if there is no soul then there are no eternal consequences for anything I do? Karma? Nothing?  Hitler and Mother Theresa (or any "good" person) get the same reward which is NOTHING?  So all of my trying to be moral and good instead of going out and trying to have sex with as many beautiful girls I can meet is for nothing? Just go out and do it as long as I'm not hurting anyone?  None of these questions are being asked facetiously. I  seriously want to know. Thanks!!!!
 
[name removed]
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nick

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2011, 07:30:35 PM »
So are you saying the only reason you try to be a good person is for the fear of a punishment like hell or something?  If so, you are already flawed.  You don't see atheists running around stealing, killing, etc. on some kind of huge scale like should be happening according to your thinking.  People are who and what they are by lots of things...your personal makeup/personality/family/etc.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2011, 08:07:42 PM »
So all of my trying to be moral and good instead of going out and trying to have sex with as many beautiful girls I can meet is for nothing?

If you are doing it solely in the conscious attempt to avoid punishment and seek reward, then you are not engaging in morality.  You are instead seeking personal gain in all things.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Historicity

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2011, 08:15:39 PM »
The absence of a supernatural afterlife consciousness does not mean the absence of an afterlife.  Consider these words from the Athenian Pledge of Allegiance[1]

"I will not leave my country smaller when I die, but greater and better, so far as I am able by myself and with the help of all."

Or as the Roman atheist Lucretius noted, you didn't exist before you were born.  You won't after you die.  It is a short time.  So if it comes down to betraying your family and country or dying for them, you are going to die anyway so leave a beautiful memory of yourself behind.

Will you leave a city more beautiful than the one you received from the previous generations?

Or to put it in your terms, have sex with the homely girls as well.  They will appreciate you more.
 1. Oath of the Ephebes is a more literal translation.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 09:45:04 PM by Historicity »

Offline albeto

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2011, 08:46:05 PM »
Hello, I read every chapter of your book. Fascinating. I have much to ponder. I hope you will e mail me back a response since I dont know if/when I'll be getting back to your site. 

Perhaps you'll find the opportunity to come to the forums. 

If I understand you correctly then if there is no soul then there are no eternal consequences for anything I do?

There's no evidence to suggest or support such a thing. 

 
Karma? Nothing?

There's no evidence to suggest or support such a thing. 

 
Hitler and Mother Theresa (or any "good" person) get the same reward which is NOTHING?

Why is the hope of a potential reward or threat of a potential punishment the only motivation to do a good thing?  What's wrong with being good for goodness sake? 

So all of my trying to be moral and good instead of going out and trying to have sex with as many beautiful girls I can meet is for nothing?

There's nothing sacred or immoral about sex.  Your interactions with others affect others as well as yourself.  Again, being good for goodness sake is it's own reward. 

Just go out and do it as long as I'm not hurting anyone? 

Why would you want to hurt anyone? 

None of these questions are being asked facetiously. I  seriously want to know. Thanks!!!!
 
[name removed]

Serious questions, serious answers.

If you'll indulge me, I'd like to ask a question of you.   Can you think of a problem with doing a good deed simply for the opportunity of one more good deed being done? 

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2011, 01:28:06 AM »
If I understand you correctly then if there is no soul then there are no eternal consequences for anything I do? Karma? Nothing?  Hitler and Mother Theresa (or any "good" person) get the same reward which is NOTHING?  So all of my trying to be moral and good instead of going out and trying to have sex with as many beautiful girls I can meet is for nothing? Just go out and do it as long as I'm not hurting anyone?  None of these questions are being asked facetiously. I  seriously want

Isn't it enough to say "it's not nice to be a jerk" without also saying "magic man tells me so"?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2011, 01:42:23 AM »
Hello, I read every chapter of your book. Fascinating. I have much to ponder. I hope you will e mail me back a response since I dont know if/when I'll be getting back to your site.   If I understand you correctly then if there is no soul then there are no eternal consequences for anything I do? Karma? Nothing?  Hitler and Mother Theresa (or any "good" person) get the same reward which is NOTHING?  So all of my trying to be moral and good instead of going out and trying to have sex with as many beautiful girls I can meet is for nothing? Just go out and do it as long as I'm not hurting anyone?  None of these questions are being asked facetiously. I  seriously want to know. Thanks!!!!
 
[name removed]

Just because some sort of universal justice would make things simple is not a reason to think it exists. And how is avoiding sex "moral?' If you are any good at it, you are denying another persons pleasure.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Samothec

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2011, 03:28:27 AM »
snipped for focus
If I understand you correctly then if there is no soul then there are no eternal consequences for anything I do? Karma? Nothing? 
[name removed]

Define "eternal consequences". Do you incorrectly believe that what you do here on Earth doesn't matter to others? And that it won't echo into the future?

This relates to a problem I have with Xians - why I stopped calling myself one long ago before becoming atheist - far, far too many Xians think that begging forgiveness from god for doing wrong is enough. Yet they don't do anything to actually correct or even ameliorate whatever wrong they did so it leaves whoever they wronged still hurt. And more likely to hurt others like they were hurt perpetuating the "evil".
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Offline plethora

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2011, 06:09:18 AM »
If I understand you correctly then if there is no soul then there are no eternal consequences for anything I do? Karma? Nothing? 

That's right. There is no soul and there are no eternal consequences.
We are finite and so are the consequences to our actions.

I wouldn't want to live in a universe where people get infinite punishment for finite crimes.

Quote
Hitler and Mother Theresa (or any "good" person) get the same reward which is NOTHING?

We all end up dead. Any rewards or punishment will be served in this life, the only one there is.

On a side note, Mother Theresa was not only a liar but did not do anyone any 'good'. Instead of helping the poor she simply persuaded them to accept their ill fate as if they somehow deserved it.... she had people resign to their own deadly diseases, suffering from them unnecessarily when they could have sought medical treatment. She fostered poverty and suffering and didn't fix a damn thing.

She was also, admittedly, an atheist ... she could no longer bring herself to believe in god:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/08/23/eveningnews/main3199062.shtml

Quote
Shortly after beginning work in Calcutta's slums, the spirit left Mother Teresa.

"Where is my faith?" she wrote. "Even deep down… there is nothing but emptiness and darkness... If there be God — please forgive me."

Eight years later, she was still looking to reclaim her lost faith.

"Such deep longing for God… Repulsed, empty, no faith, no love, no zeal," she said.

As her fame increased, her faith refused to return. Her smile, she said, was a mask.

"What do I labor for?" she asked in one letter. "If there be no God, there can be no soul. If there be no soul then, Jesus, You also are not true."

----

Quote
So all of my trying to be moral and good instead of going out and trying to have sex with as many beautiful girls I can meet is for nothing?

First of all ... there is nothing wrong with sex between consenting adults. If it makes someone happy to have sex with as many people as they can, so be it. It's not for everyone though. I am firmly an atheist and yet I am married and have a family and enjoy monogamy. That makes me happy.

But I am not going to go judging everybody else if they live differently than I do. Only theistic pricks do that.

Quote
Just go out and do it as long as I'm not hurting anyone?

Yes. You should do whatever the hell you want so long as you don't hurt anyone else in the process. What's wrong with that?


Listen, guy ... all these moral 'rules' you're carrying around, they are not divine. They are social constructs just like everybody's moral standards are. Unfortunately, your moral standards are restricted by a doctrine that was founded by primitive tribes in the bronze age middle east.

Morality evolves and gets better over time. (i.e. the Bible condones slavery and ownership of women as property while modern society had banned these practices).
I defend human rights and support total fucking freedom so long as those human rights are never violated.

I give to charity (secular ones of course) ... I help others, I live a good life. I don't hurt anybody. I do good for goodness sake. That's what you should do instead of worrying about some magical invisible dictator in the sky watching your every move. Might as well be in fucking North Korea if that's what you want.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 06:12:34 AM by plethora »
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2011, 07:33:28 AM »
What! My good pet dog "Rex" and that angry tom cat next door will just quit existing when they die with no extra punishment? No hell? Why doesn't he just bite everyone if he's not going to get eternally punished for it?
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Offline Dante

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2011, 08:30:53 AM »
Quote
Hello, I read every chapter of your book. Fascinating. I have much to ponder. I
hope you will e mail me back a response since I dont know if/when I'll be
getting back to your site.   If I understand you correctly then if there is no
soul then there are no eternal consequences for anything I do? Karma? Nothing? 
Hitler and Mother Theresa (or any "good" person) get the same reward which is
NOTHING?

As far as we can tell, yes, there is no infinite reward or punishment for actions taken in life. Yet, you seem to think this is a bad thing, but I contend it is not. Do you really believe that a finite transgression, even if it be murder, does warrant infinite punishment? If you say yes, I'd like to ask where one would draw the line? What immoral act would NOT justify infinite punishment, in your view? Rape? Assault? Stealing? Adultery? Cheating on a math test? Where does it stop?

Kind acts are their own reward. People, for the most part, don't partake in activities unless there's a benefit to them. One doesn't help an old lady cross a street, for example, for the sole purpose of prolonging the old lady's life. One does it because it feels good to do it.

Quote
So all of my trying to be moral and good instead of going out and
trying to have sex with as many beautiful girls I can meet is for nothing? Just
go out and do it as long as I'm not hurting anyone?  None of these questions are
being asked facetiously. I  seriously want to know. Thanks!!!!

Why do you think bedding beautiful girls is immoral? If all parties are made aware of the circumstances and consequences, why would it be immoral?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2011, 10:15:56 AM »
Quote
If I understand you correctly then if there is no soul then there are no eternal consequences for anything I do? Karma? Nothing?  Hitler and Mother Theresa (or any "good" person) get the same reward which is NOTHING?

That is the conclusion to be drawn from all the available science, yes: consciousness ceases with death.  (Interestingly, though, if Christianity is the correct doctrine, then Mother Theresa, an atheist, is in hell, whereas Hitler, a Catholic, is in heaven.  Do you find this arrangement preferable?)

Quote
So all of my trying to be moral and good instead of going out and trying to have sex with as many beautiful girls I can meet is for nothing?

(Bold mine)

First of all, why do you presuppose that having sex with a lot of partners is not "moral or good"?  Does the phrase "consenting adults in private" mean anything to you?  More importantly, though, this question, along with your previous one, rests on a presupposition that ethics is a means to achieve a goal.  It isn't.  Ethics is an end unto itself.

Quote
Just go out and do it as long as I'm not hurting anyone?

If you're hurting someone by having sex with her, you're probably doing it wrong.  *cough*  (Well, unless she's actually into that kind of thing, of course...)
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nam

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2011, 10:26:55 AM »
Quote
Hello, I read every chapter of your book. Fascinating. I have much to ponder. I hope you will e mail me back a response since I dont know if/when I'll be getting back to your site.   If I understand you correctly then if there is no soul then there are no eternal consequences for anything I do? Karma? Nothing?  Hitler and Mother Theresa (or any "good" person) get the same reward which is NOTHING?  So all of my trying to be moral and good instead of going out and trying to have sex with as many beautiful girls I can meet is for nothing? Just go out and do it as long as I'm not hurting anyone?  None of these questions are being asked facetiously. I  seriously want to know. Thanks!!!!

Wow, what idiocy I just read there.  So, only those who have a soul, have a moral code of ethics?  If that's what you believe, you're an idiot.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2011, 02:35:00 PM »
To the OP

Yep, sorry to break your bubble and show that you're not a special snowflake and you won't get your milk and cookies when you die. 

I suspect a clever sheep trying to again claim that atheists just have to be nihilists. 
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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2011, 02:39:03 PM »
I suspect a clever sheep trying to again claim that atheists just have to be nihilists. 

Nihilism is probably the worst non-sequitur ever.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2011, 02:47:15 PM by Lucifer »
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Offline Nam

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2011, 02:48:19 PM »
Quote from: Lucifer
Nihilism is probably the worst non-seguitur ever.

People refer to me as a Nihilist all the time but the problem with that, with me, is that I have a moral compass.  It's a small one but I still have it.  A Nihilist rejects that, and everything else dealing with religion.

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2011, 03:00:21 PM »
People refer to me as a Nihilist all the time but the problem with that, with me, is that I have a moral compass.  It's a small one but I still have it.  A Nihilist rejects that, and everything else dealing with religion.

I'm assuming that the "else" was a typo, because it implies that moral compasses are a "property" of religion.
Anyway, from what I understood, nihilism was basically this:
Life has no intrinsic meaning.
Therefore life is meaningless[1].

Hence my "non-sequitur" bit.
 1. In the sense that not even life can give itself meaning-
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2011, 03:08:57 PM »
Quote from: Lucifer
I'm assuming that the "else" was a typo, because it implies that moral compasses are a "property" of religion.

It wasn't a typo, but, let's call it a reflex in thought.

Quote from: Lucifer
Anyway, from what I understood, nihilism was basically this:
Life has no intrinsic meaning.
Therefore life is meaningless.

Hence my "non-sequitur" bit.

From my understanding it's the rejection of all morals and religious principles.

-Nam
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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2011, 03:15:40 PM »
It wasn't a typo, but, let's call it a reflex in thought.

Explain.

From my understanding it's the rejection of all morals and religious principles.

That sounds more like psychopathy and "angry at god 'atheism'" (for lack of a better term) than nihilism, IMO.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2011, 03:16:50 PM »
Quote from: Lucifer
Explain.

Something stated out of reflex.  You don't state things out of reflex?

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2011, 03:17:47 PM »
Something stated out of reflex.

Ah. Makes sense.

You don't state things out of reflex?

I try not to.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2011, 12:59:48 AM »
What, your sense of 'justice' is tweaked?
Is any finite crime is worth an infinite punishment?



Lets use the Hitler/Mother Theresa argument, though to be honest if I were you I wouldn't be so eager to embrace Mother Theresa, she was directly the cause of much pain and suffering that could have been alleviated.

Hitler killed, lets call it 10 million people.  He didn't do it directly, but he mostly is considered the person who set in motion the chain of events that caused it.  Fine, we'll go with that.



Lets say that he suffers for a Billion years for each person he caused to die.  That's 100,000,000,000 years.  Is that long enough?  Clearly it isn't because your bible says 'infinite' which means forever.

Edit: in response to the overwhelming response to my bad math I  present:


  Sorry about that.



Now, if a little girl had the misfortune to be born in North America year 800, she's right next to him, suffering for the same amount of time, the same exact punishment.  She had the misfortune of not having read a Christian bible and grew up believing in nature spirits of whatever.  She also has to suffer forever.



The problem is that the bible you're reading has been written by bronze age barbarians with no concept of anything beyond a couple of lifetimes.  That's why it gets so much stuff wrong.  You already know this, which is why you don't bother following it to the letter.



« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 03:16:10 PM by MadBunny »
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Offline Samothec

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2011, 01:43:09 AM »
Snipped for focus
Hitler killed, lets call it 10 million people.  He didn't do it directly, but he mostly is considered the person who set in motion the chain of events that caused it.  Fine, we'll go with that.
Lets say that he suffers for a Billion years for each person he caused to die.  That's 100,000,000,000 years.  Is that long enough?  Clearly it isn't because your bible says 'infinite' which means forever.
 

Whispering:
Pssst, dude, you lost some zeroes 10,000,000 * 1,000,000,000 = 10,000,000,000,000,000. Quick, fix it before anyone notices     :-X
Unless you're British then a billion is a million million and it would be like this: 10,000,000 * 1,000,000,000,000 = 10,000,000,000,000,000,000.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2011, 01:45:35 AM by Samothec »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2011, 02:05:44 AM »
^^ Gnu is British.
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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2011, 02:07:42 AM »
You do know that there are other countries besides the UK that use the "a billion is a million millions" thing, right?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2011, 02:09:30 AM »
Out of curiosity, what is the word for a thousand million in Britain (and in other places where that naming system is used)?
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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2011, 02:12:19 AM »
Out of curiosity, what is the word for a thousand million in Britain (and in other places where that naming system is used)?

Bold mine.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2011, 02:15:30 AM »
That's awfully inconsistent.  Doesn't that make 1,000,000,000 the only multiple-step of 1000 to have a compound name?
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Re: Hitler/mother theresa [#2638]
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2011, 02:23:47 AM »
That's awfully inconsistent.  Doesn't that make 1,000,000,000 the only multiple-step of 1000 to have a compound name?

Nope. We have: a thousand millions, a thousand billions and so on.
I don't see what the inconsistency is.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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