Author Topic: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.  (Read 4430 times)

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Offline free

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2011, 08:49:40 PM »
Why the attachments to spirits?

Because that is the subject of this thread

Not exactly fair, free.  He wasn't asking the question, he was indicating that he was about to answer it.

In that case redacted, a misunderstanding.

Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2011, 08:54:47 PM »
I think this just goes back to some other discussions, where we're talking about rationalism, and how much science relies on it to describe reality.  I mean,  E, is derived from reason, right?

No.  It's derived from applying reason to observation.  It explains observations.  That's what theories (and even laws) do.


Yeah,   but since certain ideas like E are mathematically derived concepts, they have an intangible essence to them,  like in string theory.   Not saying it's not useful to use the concept as a tool, but I'm talking more philosophically.

So then I'm not so quick to dismiss certain concepts like spirits or the spiritual realm,  just because there is no way to understand them with some direct measurement.
Quote

That doesn't explain your attachment to them.  It just explains why you aren't willing to give up your attachment to them.

There are an infinite number of hypothetical things that have not been disproven.  Yet, you are fixated on a particular subset of them: spirits.  Why?

EDIT:  And it's not even a particular idea that you're proposing, either.  You seem to just like the word, and the idea of an incoherent universe.  Again, why?

I don't think death is the end of consciousness.  I point to NDE as one example.  So then the spirit is useful for describing that which is you that remains and travels on.....

Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2011, 08:58:59 PM »
So you adhere to the it's true unless proven otherwise school of thought?  If so I have an teapot near Mars for sale.

Nah, but I do think reasoning alone, and personal experience can be valid evidence, but that depends on what the topic is...

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2011, 09:23:09 PM »
So you adhere to the it's true unless proven otherwise school of thought?  If so I have an teapot near Mars for sale.

Nah, but I do think reasoning alone, and personal experience can be valid evidence, but that depends on what the topic is...

Those things you say can be evidence, you're correct.  But they are low level and are trumped by investigation and real science.  Some people experience a piece of burnt bread that looks like Jesus and see it as evidence of divinity.  Rational people see the same bread, recognize the facial pattern, realize that humans naturally see faces in inanimate objects and write it off to chance.  This is an example of when personal experience fails.

If you want to see where reason fails, check out quantum mechanics.  It is about as far from natural human reason as you can get, but its a fabulous model of the universe, much better than reason.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2011, 09:27:09 PM »
Gill:
Quote
I don't think death is the end of consciousness.
But is that the starting-point of your investigations, or the conclusion?

It looks to me as if it's your starting-point, and you're combing the world for evidence to back it up, because you want it to be true.

And there's plenty of evidence out there, has been for centuries: ghosts, mediums, spirits, NDE's, Buddhist re-incarnations, the Resurrection etc etc...

But it's not very good evidence, that's the problem.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2011, 09:40:12 PM »
Yeah,   but since certain ideas like E are mathematically derived concepts, they have an intangible essence to them,  like in string theory.   Not saying it's not useful to use the concept as a tool, but I'm talking more philosophically.

You keep saying that, but have yet to justify it.  And string theory isn't a theory, despite the name - it's a conjecture with possible promise.  It's never been actually employed for anything, as a result, and can't yet - unlike the concept of energy.

I don't think like the idea that death is the end of consciousness.  I point to NDE as one example.  So then the spirit is useful for describing that which is you that remains and travels on.....

NDEs aren't an example of what you're looking for.  And look at my editing of this quote - this is what is evident from your positions.  When pressed, you've got nothing except a desire.  Desires are fine, but don't pretend they affect reality.  It can be dangerous.

Example:  I don't like the idea that I'm going to probably get colon cancer in a couple of decades (family history).  Doesn't mean I should look for evidence for why I won't, and pay preferential attention to it.  I mean, I could convince myself I won't get colon cancer, if I want to.  But is it a good idea?  Is it honest, with myself?  Is it safe?

Convincing yourself that there's an afterlife is similar.  It devalues the present life.  Logically, dying is less of a big deal when there's a life that continues afterward.  So risking death is more attractive, and wasting years is more okay, etc.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 09:45:31 PM by Azdgari »
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2011, 09:59:39 PM »
Gill:
Quote
I don't think death is the end of consciousness.
But is that the starting-point of your investigations, or the conclusion?

It looks to me as if it's your starting-point, and you're combing the world for evidence to back it up, because you want it to be true.

And there's plenty of evidence out there, has been for centuries: ghosts, mediums, spirits, NDE's, Buddhist re-incarnations, the Resurrection etc etc...

But it's not very good evidence, that's the problem.

Conclusion.  True, not all the evidence is perfect, but sometimes you just have to rely on other means, and that's just fine sometimes.

Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2011, 10:03:17 PM »
NDEs aren't an example of what you're looking for.  And look at my editing of this quote - this is what is evident from your positions.  When pressed, you've got nothing except a desire.  Desires are fine, but don't pretend they affect reality.  It can be dangerous.

Example:  I don't like the idea that I'm going to probably get colon cancer in a couple of decades (family history).  Doesn't mean I should look for evidence for why I won't, and pay preferential attention to it.  I mean, I could convince myself I won't get colon cancer, if I want to.  But is it a good idea?  Is it honest, with myself?  Is it safe?

Convincing yourself that there's an afterlife is similar.  It devalues the present life.  Logically, dying is less of a big deal when there's a life that continues afterward.  So risking death is more attractive, and wasting years is more okay, etc.

I see your points.  I agree, shouldn't let the idea of an after-life devalue this life, or get carried away just from a desire.

Well, I'm not going to get into NDEs here, since there's a whole thread on it, but I still think those people were in the process of dying.  May not have fully completed it, but I still think it sheds some light on the story.



Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2011, 10:05:30 PM »
free:
Quote
If you want to see where reason fails, check out quantum mechanics
I wouldn't say that QM was unreasonable, free. But I have heard it said that QM and Relativity offend common-sense e.g. in our world of experience, time flows at a constant rate. Every day is 24 hours long. So the idea that time is relative to speed offends common-sense, but it's still reasonable.

Quote
Quote
Nah, but I do think reasoning alone, and personal experience can be valid evidence, but that depends on what the topic is...
Those things you say can be evidence, you're correct.  But they are low level and are trumped by investigation and real science.
Actually I do agree with Gill on this point, to a certain extent.

Descartes laid the sceptical foundations of science by deciding to doubt everything; and by the application of pure reason and his own experience he derived the cogito, proof of the truth that he existed.

That wasn't low-level; it revolutionized western philosophy and kick-started science.

And yes, I know that ten pages later in the same book Descartes used his pure reason to erroneously prove that God exists. But hey, no-ones's perfect.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 10:15:28 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2011, 10:08:18 PM »
I see your points.  I agree, shouldn't let the idea of an after-life devalue this life, or get carried away just from a desire.

You have no choice in that part, Gill.  It does devalue this life, as a logical necessity.  If you have a finite amount of something, and you are then given an infinite amount of that thing, then the finite amount is automatically devalued.

Believing that you have an infinitely long life automatically devalues each individual year you're alive.  There is no way around it.

Well, I'm not going to get into NDEs here, since there's a whole thread on it, but I still think those people were in the process of dying.  May not have fully completed it, but I still think it sheds some light on the story.

By all means, there is a whole thread full of people ripping that idea to shreds before your eyes.  Refraining from addressing those arguments is important for preserving the idea that I'm not going to get colon cancer later in life that you have an afterlife ahead of you.  Very important goal, that.  It takes precedence over all.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2011, 10:27:06 PM »
Gill:
Quote
Quote
But is that the starting-point of your investigations, or the conclusion? <snip> And there's plenty of evidence out there, has been for centuries: ghosts, mediums, spirits, NDE's, Buddhist re-incarnations, the Resurrection etc etc... But it's not very good evidence, that's the problem.
Conclusion.  True, not all the evidence is perfect, but sometimes you just have to rely on other means, and that's just fine sometimes.
What other means are you relying on, exactly?

Also, when you say:
Quote
I don't think death is the end of consciousness.
... do you think that applies to all conscious beings i.e. most life-forms? Or just to people?

Offline eartheconomyspirit

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #69 on: December 19, 2011, 01:56:25 AM »
Perhaps like the elusive unified theory we may have to settle for the symptoms rather than the hard evidence.

However, we do share tears of joy and sadness. Signatures to a spiritual reality, Perhaps.


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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #70 on: December 19, 2011, 02:01:16 AM »
Perhaps like the elusive unified theory we may have to settle for the symptoms rather than the hard evidence.

However, we do share tears of joy and sadness. Signatures to a spiritual reality, Perhaps.

We also share influenza and fire ants. People have been perhapsing the spiritual realm, because they think emotions cannot be from a physical computation. As homework, calculate how many atoms there are on the head of a pin, and work out how long a present-day computer would take to count them.
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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #71 on: December 19, 2011, 02:31:52 AM »
Welcome to the forum, eartheconomyspirit.

Perhaps like the elusive unified theory we may have to settle for the symptoms rather than the hard evidence.

However, we do share tears of joy and sadness. Signatures to a spiritual reality, Perhaps.

Or, with zero evidence so far of any "spiritual reality", symptoms of concrete, verifiable, measurable emotional states and nothing more.

I was a Christian for 15 years, ees (please forgive the contraction of your forum name). It was very comforting to think that my mind would somehow exist eternally past my physical death, that there was a perfectly just God who would ultimately wipe away all earthly sorrow. But there was evidence for neither immortal souls or such a being as the Christian god, and I eventually gave up my superstitions.

It was scarey at first, but there's still a lot of joy and wonder to be found in life, lots more to be done in the 20-30 years I probably have left. And I don't miss any of the false hope and fear I've left behind.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #72 on: December 19, 2011, 05:07:54 AM »
what then is sciences rationale  for the tears of joy we share?

Why do we feel physical warmth in giving. Why does a volunteer thrive in spirit through the gift of kindness and selflessness. Equally why a prisons so lacking in good spirit.

The whole debate changes when you look at the Gospel of thomas. Here Jesus talks about a living experience, of knowing not believing, of the sabbath relating to rest(meditation) as in zen, of a spirituality as a part of our being not apart from.

The GOT was discovered in 1945 and interstingly has not be accepted by mainstream chrsitianty.


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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #73 on: December 19, 2011, 05:12:24 AM »
what then is sciences rationale  for the tears of joy we share?

Bold mine. There's the explanation.

Why do we feel physical warmth in giving.

We do? I wasn't aware of this.

Why does a volunteer thrive in spirit through the gift of kindness and selflessness. Equally why a prisons so lacking in good spirit.

Define spirit, then prove that it exists.

<snip>

Prove that Jesus existed, then prove that the GOT is true, then prove everything else you said, and then we can have a chat.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #74 on: December 19, 2011, 06:40:55 AM »
what then is sciences rationale  for the tears of joy we share?

Why do we feel physical warmth in giving. Why does a volunteer thrive in spirit through the gift of kindness and selflessness. Equally why a prisons so lacking in good spirit.

Science knows this.. The "good Feeling" and happiness we feel in response to fulfilling a social good deed is biochemical, your mind gives you a shot of dopamine, a feel good hormone kin to adrenaline.
This is an evolutionary acquired trait that benefits the clan or the "herd".

No magic woo required.

Doc's can give you drug combos that will make you feel like you're the next best thing since sliced bread. You'll stand at the street corner and wave at all of your fans (Imagined).
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 06:43:23 AM by Brakeman »
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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #75 on: December 19, 2011, 07:59:06 AM »
The GOT was discovered in 1945 and interstingly has not be accepted by mainstream chrsitianty.

I can't vouch for your interpretation of the GOT, because it is rather short, and ripped out of Matthew. Christians have decided to accept a whole heap of contradictory gospels and viewpoints, because they are lame. Since the Catholic church made Christianity up, I don't see how you can claim you have a better interpretation of it, without rejecting the whole Bible.

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #76 on: December 19, 2011, 11:52:44 AM »
what then is sciences rationale  for the tears of joy we share?

wtf?  Is this even a question?  Is the point to this quasi-question "some things science cannot answer"?  If so, it is a stupid point and does not answer the larger point here that Gill is spinning his wheels trying to justify his woo through his almost perfect ignorance of science.

Why do we feel physical warmth in giving.

How do you know this is a fact?  Have you measured body temperatures of people before, during and after giving?   If true, could it be that metabolism, which is controlled by the brain, is influenced by mental states? 

Why does a volunteer thrive in spirit ...

wtf does this even mean? Look, if you want to have an actual conversation here, you are going to have to start being more precise and stop speaking in terms of woo.

Equally why a prisons so lacking in good spirit.

Because they are full of anti-social assholes who are not allowed freedom?  I would find it more curious if prisons had an abundance of "good spirit"".

The whole debate changes when you look at the Gospel of thomas.

Is it possible the whole debate changes because the gospel to thom has absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand?

The GOT was discovered in 1945 and interstingly has not be accepted by mainstream chrsitianty.

Imagine that. 
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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #77 on: December 19, 2011, 12:11:04 PM »
@ GO.  If you re-read my post, I said natural human reason.  Meaning what you would be able to deduce with your own reason, of which QM is very distant.  It absolutely follows reason, but not the kind Gill is talking about.  You could never deduce QM through thought alone.

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #78 on: December 19, 2011, 12:13:48 PM »
free:
Quote
If you want to see where reason fails, check out quantum mechanics
I wouldn't say that QM was unreasonable, free. But I have heard it said that QM and Relativity offend common-sense e.g. in our world of experience, time flows at a constant rate. Every day is 24 hours long. So the idea that time is relative to speed offends common-sense, but it's still reasonable.

Quote
Quote
Nah, but I do think reasoning alone, and personal experience can be valid evidence, but that depends on what the topic is...
Those things you say can be evidence, you're correct.  But they are low level and are trumped by investigation and real science.
Actually I do agree with Gill on this point, to a certain extent.

Descartes laid the sceptical foundations of science by deciding to doubt everything; and by the application of pure reason and his own experience he derived the cogito, proof of the truth that he existed.

That wasn't low-level; it revolutionized western philosophy and kick-started science.

And yes, I know that ten pages later in the same book Descartes used his pure reason to erroneously prove that God exists. But hey, no-ones's perfect.

Descartes supports me here!  Its a perfect example of where reason can lead you to science!  You can reason to be skeptical and use science.  But that just means exactly what I said, be skeptical of thought and use science.  And in my opinion philosophy is low level compared to science.

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #79 on: December 19, 2011, 12:16:42 PM »
what then is sciences rationale  for the tears of joy we share?

Why do we feel physical warmth in giving. Why does a volunteer thrive in spirit through the gift of kindness and selflessness. Equally why a prisons so lacking in good spirit.

The whole debate changes when you look at the Gospel of thomas. Here Jesus talks about a living experience, of knowing not believing, of the sabbath relating to rest(meditation) as in zen, of a spirituality as a part of our being not apart from.

The GOT was discovered in 1945 and interstingly has not be accepted by mainstream chrsitianty.

Because populations with empathy and affection for each other preserve the genetics of the group well.  They protect each other, stay together, have xenophobia etc and their genes live on.  The next generation also gets those genes.  The selfish individual doesn't get to be part of the group and his/her genes are less likely to move on.  See The Selfish Gene, Dawkins.

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #80 on: December 19, 2011, 12:32:42 PM »
Gill,

Energy is energy.  The spirit is the spirit.  Wanting to add your own definition to either word is nonsense.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #81 on: December 19, 2011, 01:23:32 PM »
The GOT was discovered in 1945 and interstingly has not be accepted by mainstream chrsitianty.

ooh, one more new thing a special snowflake has glommed onto so sure that they now know some great "secret" of the univese.
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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #82 on: December 19, 2011, 03:59:09 PM »
First, what is a spirit?  I'd define it as the spirit is a part of you that is eternal, and immaterial, as I've said before.

Can't get past this cause this my friend, is where you make your 1st error. Your definition of spirit is not very "spiritual" in that speaking from the ancient religious text known as the Bible, 'spirit' is defined in numerous ways that differ from your definition. Mainly, what "spirit" was in the texts was an unseen force or power (like the wind) that was even synonomous with the English word 'breath'.

In addition, what is the point of bringing in a concept such as eternity and having it listed as one of the charactoristics of a spirit? Plus, why assume that the spirit is sentient and thinking? WHy is it contained by the living body?

Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #83 on: December 19, 2011, 07:01:33 PM »
First, what is a spirit?  I'd define it as the spirit is a part of you that is eternal, and immaterial, as I've said before.

Can't get past this cause this my friend, is where you make your 1st error. Your definition of spirit is not very "spiritual" in that speaking from the ancient religious text known as the Bible, 'spirit' is defined in numerous ways that differ from your definition. Mainly, what "spirit" was in the texts was an unseen force or power (like the wind) that was even synonomous with the English word 'breath'.

In addition, what is the point of bringing in a concept such as eternity and having it listed as one of the charactoristics of a spirit? Plus, why assume that the spirit is sentient and thinking? WHy is it contained by the living body?

Fair enough. 

I would say, using 'immaterial' was not very good in my first post.   But, how about 'intangible'?   There are many concepts in science which are intangible.   One cannot hold a force in their hand or a ball of energy.  These concepts only have meaning when talking about their effects on another thing, yet they are considered to exist.

So if a spirit is an 'unseen force' or power, it seems to share a similar quality to a scientific force.   Maybe there's a lot of things not understood yet that can't be measured directly, but only known in terms of how they effect something else.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 07:05:37 PM by Gill »

Offline pingnak

Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #84 on: December 20, 2011, 02:06:22 AM »
Science knows this.. The "good Feeling" and happiness we feel in response to fulfilling a social good deed is biochemical, your mind gives you a shot of dopamine, a feel good hormone kin to adrenaline.
This is an evolutionary acquired trait that benefits the clan or the "herd".

No magic woo required.

Doc's can give you drug combos that will make you feel like you're the next best thing since sliced bread. You'll stand at the street corner and wave at all of your fans (Imagined).

There is specific circuitry wired into the brain to recognize these things, too.  It can be damaged/disabled.  It can be stimulated.  People can be born without it, and have to explicitly learn 'correct' responses to all of the 'social cues', or it can develop abnormally.
http://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(11)00654-3

If you probe the brain directly, you can directly cause emotions.  Directly cause hallucinations.  Directly cause almost anything to be experienced.  Damage to the brain can similarly prevent or stimulate experiences.  Memory is easily lost.  Higher levels of reasoning damaged.  All kinds of subtle to horrible things happen to people when their brains are injured through trauma or disease.  Thousands of articles exist documenting the effects of strokes and other such injuries, and the things that happen during brain surgery on conscious patients. 

For really trippy reading, look up stories about 'Corpus Callosotomy' patients.  People frequently become as two (cooperative or not) entities.  Does splitting the brain split the 'spirit', or does it split the functional BRAIN, which IS what you are inaccurately labeling a 'spirit'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_callosotomy


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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #85 on: December 20, 2011, 08:35:24 AM »
So if a spirit is an 'unseen force' or power,

How many newtons?  How many watts? 

Forces are created by physical things.  Forces are the effects of physical things on other physical things[1].  If spirits or other hobgoblins are having an impact on physical things, it should be able to be measured.  So, in what way are these hobgoblins affecting physical things?

 
 1. technically, forces are conceptual only.  They are mathematically necessary to the model of mechanics, however
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #86 on: December 20, 2011, 09:13:58 AM »
.....One cannot hold a force in their hand or a ball of energy.  These concepts only have meaning when talking about their effects on another thing, yet they are considered to exist.   So if a spirit is an 'unseen force' or power, it seems to share a similar quality to a scientific force.....

Except in the last sentence above, you conveniently ignored the part immediately before that I've bolded.  Science will talk about force or energy because it can demonstrate how they affect something....and this can be measured.  For "spirit" to be equivalent to "energy", you'll need to show how it can be measured, and demonstrate its effects on another thing.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?