Author Topic: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.  (Read 3903 times)

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Offline Gill

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Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« on: December 18, 2011, 11:09:25 AM »
First, what is a spirit?  I'd define it as the spirit is a part of you that is eternal, and immaterial, as I've said before.

Ok.   

Einstein says that E=mc^2.   If you agree with this equation, then you agree that the mass of an object, or body, is a function of the total energy of that object, or body.

So then,  you could consider yourself a body, which has a mass, or even a combination of smaller masses if you wish, such as cells.    But, it is equally valid to consider your body to be a quantity of energy.

Therefore,  being that energy is immaterial, and by the law of conservation of energy, it is not destroyed,  you have to conclude that there is a part of you which is immaterial and eternal.

Why not call that part a spirit?

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 11:35:57 AM »
By your logic everything, even my left shoe, must have an eternal spirit.

(However, I would concede that my left shoe does indeed possess a sole).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 11:38:40 AM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline rev45

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2011, 11:42:23 AM »
Therefore,  being that energy is immaterial, and by the law of conservation of energy, it is not destroyed,  you have to conclude that there is a part of you which is immaterial and eternal.

Why not call that part a spirit?
Are you saying that energy=spirit?

(However, I would concede that my left shoe does indeed possess a sole).
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Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2011, 11:45:09 AM »
By your logic everything, even my left shoe, must have an eternal spirit.

(However, I would concede that my left shoe does indeed possess a sole).

hehe.  yes, good point.   Maybe the shoe would have a spirit in this logic.  But the difference between the shoe and the person, the person of course has more energy to willfully move around, think, and such, so would have more of this 'spirit'. 

Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2011, 11:48:24 AM »
Therefore,  being that energy is immaterial, and by the law of conservation of energy, it is not destroyed,  you have to conclude that there is a part of you which is immaterial and eternal.

Why not call that part a spirit?
Are you saying that energy=spirit?


I saying people usually associate the 'spiritual', with immaterial and timeless ideas.  But if we think about it,  Einstein pointed out that the physical universe is very immaterial and eternal in the sense that matter is related to energy.     So why not believe, even if not in God, or afterlife, that there's something about you, which is immaterial?

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2011, 11:49:50 AM »
Energy is something a system has, not what a system is.  It is defined as the ability to do work.  Nothing more.  It's not a tangible thing.  In the same vein, mass is a property of matter, not the definition of matter. 

The part of us that is never created or destroyed is the matter that makes us up.  But it does change form.  The matter that makes us up, in time, will no longer be in it's current form (AKA me).  We exist as living human beings (and Gnu's left shoe exists as a left shoe) due to the way that the matter we are made from is arranged.  When that arrangement goes away, so do we.  Where is there room for something eternal left over from us in all that? 

hehe.  yes, good point.   Maybe the shoe would have a spirit in this logic.  But the difference between the shoe and the person, the person of course has more energy to willfully move around, think, and such, so would have more of this 'spirit'. 

No.  The shoe has less energy due to the fact that it has less mass.  The difference is that the shoe has no process by which it manufactures energy on it's own.  We do.  Plants do too.  That's the only difference.  And when we die, we no longer have that process available to us, so we become identical to Gnu's left shoe in that respect. 
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Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2011, 12:04:19 PM »
Energy is something a system has, not what a system is.  It is defined as the ability to do work.  Nothing more.  It's not a tangible thing.  In the same vein, mass is a property of matter, not the definition of matter. 

I'm not talking about energy in terms of work, I'm referring to the rest energy of an object as defined by E=mc^2.     


Offline jetson

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2011, 12:10:38 PM »
We gave ourselves a "spirit".  In terms of it being something other than a concept, you'll have to do more in showing how this is more than just a concept.

Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2011, 12:18:24 PM »
Maybe I should rephrase it a little.

Even if you say that mass and energy are properties of a body, not the body itself, doesn't that still lead to the conclusion, that the body has a property, which is immaterial and eternal?  The energy side of the equation.....

So then your body may rot eventually, but the energy moves on, it is not destroyed.  Therefore eternal.

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2011, 12:21:42 PM »
So then your body may rot eventually, but the energy moves on, it is not destroyed.  Therefore eternal.

Sorry, no. The energy is "stuck" as mass and is slowly absorbed by bacteria and such that will absorb organic matter and use it like we use food. There is a conservation of mass, and therefore energy.
Also, if a "spirit" existed, total energy in the universe would keep increasing, which doesn't make sense, simply because we have measured the vacuum of space... and it's getting colder. Unless you're going to tell me that the spirit can be broken into nearly infinite pieces and that the "afterlife" is actually the "digestive system" of a bacterium. If so, please kill me now. And then kill the bacteria that feed on my corpse.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 12:24:30 PM by Lucifer »
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Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2011, 12:34:05 PM »
So then your body may rot eventually, but the energy moves on, it is not destroyed.  Therefore eternal.

Sorry, no. The energy is "stuck" as mass and is slowly absorbed by bacteria and such that will absorb organic matter and use it like we use food. There is a conservation of mass, and therefore energy.
Also, if a "spirit" existed, total energy in the universe would keep increasing, which doesn't make sense, simply because we have measured the vacuum of space... and it's getting colder. Unless you're going to tell me that the spirit can be broken into nearly infinite pieces and that the "afterlife" is actually the "digestive system" of a bacterium. If so, please kill me now. And then kill the bacteria that feed on my corpse.

Well the bacterium may take some of your chemical energy, but that doesn't necessarily mean all of your energy is chemical.  Maybe the spiritual type energy simply goes somewhere else.  And we could not know exactly since the energy would be immaterial.

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2011, 12:35:47 PM »
Well the bacterium may take some of your chemical energy, but that doesn't necessarily mean all of your energy is chemical.  Maybe the spiritual type energy simply goes somewhere else.  And we could not know exactly since the energy would be immaterial.

Re-read this entire thread and see what energy actually is. Actually, just re-read every single post even remotely directed at you and try to learn something.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2011, 12:41:36 PM »
Gill,

What happens to the energy in a battery when it is empty?

Offline free

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2011, 01:06:59 PM »
This whole argument relies on your fallacy that Energy=Spirit!  It was said already that energy is the ability to do work, that is all it is! [1]

E =mc^2 just tells us that the internal energy of something with matter is equal to its mass at rest times the constant value of the speed of light in a vacuum squared!  It doesn't tell us anything about a soul, and it makes no distinction between a living mass and a non-living mass.  A couch with the same rest mass as you has the same internal energy!  Does the couch have a soul?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2011, 01:58:26 PM »
@ Gill

You talking 'bout midichlorians or what here?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2011, 02:10:10 PM »
Before asking "why not" call "energy", "spirit" - let's first ask "why".

Could it be so that we can, under the radar, attach qualities to "energy" that are not actually a part of the original concept of "energy"?

This would be similar to using a "first cause" argument for a "first mover", and then blithely substituting in YHWH for that "first mover".

I cannot fathom another reason why Gill would want to do what he's doing here.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 02:12:08 PM »
Gill, you don't have to abuse the concept of "energy" for your goal.  You can do it much more simply than that:

Everyone has a heart to pump their blood.
Call "heart" a "spirit".
Now everyone has a "spirit"!  And we can look at it, and feel it beating, too!  GO SCIENCE!  I mean, nobody can refute that we have scientific evidence for the existence of spirits now, right?

What you are doing is in no way different from that ^^.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 02:19:48 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2011, 02:20:56 PM »
Gill,

What happens to the energy in a battery when it is empty?

It travels somewhere.

Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2011, 02:22:29 PM »
Gill, you don't have to abuse the concept of "energy" for your goal.  You can do it much more simply than that:

Everyone has a heart to pump their blood.
Call "heart" a "spirit".
Now everyone has a "spirit"!  And we can look at it, and feel it beating, too!  GO SCIENCE!  I mean, nobody can refute that we have scientific evidence for the existence of spirits now, right?

What you are doing is in no way different from that ^^.

I don't think I'm abusing it.   Energy is an immaterial and indefinite concept, and is widely accepted by people as something real.  Yet, a 'spirit' , which has the same connotations,  why would that be so unbelievable?

Offline pingnak

Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2011, 02:31:23 PM »
There is a falsifiable way to prove there is no 'soul' necessary to drive a body.

As I have mentioned before, simulate a brain+body in a computer.  Get a logically equivalent neural network running in realtime, and put real creatures, and then real people into a computer simulated world.

It would demonstrate that we are information, not magical woo. 

That a copy of you could live forever, but through technology, not talking to imaginary friends.

And it would be super useful.  Not just for the 'immortality'.  For spreading humans and other life throughout the universe, where in 99.999999-% of it, machinery with basic energy/maintenance requirements is far more suitable than life support for fragile things evolved to live briefly in a gravity well, surrounded by all kinds of idiosyncratic nutritional and biological requirements.

Realistically, this would not 'disprove' the soul to anyone who wants to believe in them.  They would either claim the machinery was full of 'souls', or that only the meat machine version has a 'soul' to experience with, and the virtual people, convincing as they may be, are soulless automata.  Of course this is pure solipsism and ignores the applicability of such arguments to your fellow meat machines.

The concept of 'soul' retreats from learning, just as their deities, demons, etc. retreat for learning.

Though the common definition of 'soul' would certainly shift to the information (code+data) that makes a person what they are, rather than some mystical retard woo. 

This would at least be a definition of 'soul' that any reasonable person could agree on, and agree that it 'exists'.


Offline Azdgari

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2011, 02:36:30 PM »
I don't think I'm abusing it.   Energy is an immaterial and indefinite concept, and is widely accepted by people as something real.

This is an inaccurate definition of "energy".  And "energy" also has other attributes...

Yet, a 'spirit' , which has the same connotations,  why would that be so unbelievable?

It does not have the same connotations.  Energy is a measurable quantity.  It obeys physical laws.  It degrades in quality (gains entropy) according to the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Do you hold that the "spirit" hold those qualities?  Because if so, then your idea of "spirit" is awfully odd, among ideas of "spirit".  And if not, then you are abusing the word "energy".

What is your motive?
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Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2011, 02:44:03 PM »
Yet, a 'spirit' , which has the same connotations,  why would that be so unbelievable?

It does not have the same connotations.  Energy is a measurable quantity. 

Yeah, expect in a singularity.
Quote
What is your motive?

Nothing too deep here, just an idea I had.  I just think science does in some respects, point to immaterial and eternal realities, and I find concepts like energy, or a singularity to be such pointers.

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2011, 02:46:39 PM »
Immaterial and real are not antonyms. 

Energy is absolutely real, it is the ability to do work. 

Spirit is a non-corporeal substance.

One has nothing to do with another, lets all move on.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2011, 02:50:08 PM »
Gill,

Which body cell has a spirit and which doesn't?  When the skin cells of your pinky finger dies, does that cell's spirit float off into skin cell heaven? Why would it be bound in any way to it's symbiotic neighbor? Does an Anencephic baby have a "spirit"?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2011, 02:50:18 PM »
Yeah, expect in a singularity.

Eh?  A black hole's energy (and entropy) is measurable by its mass, or by the radius of its event horizon, combined with its angular momentum.

Could you give a reference for where you got this idea that singularity-energy was unmeasurable?

Nothing too deep here, just an idea I had.  I just think science does in some respects, point to immaterial and eternal realities, and I find concepts like energy, or a singularity to be such pointers.

You are equivocating between different senses of the word "immaterial".  Such dishonesty is why I questioned your motives in the first place.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2011, 02:53:22 PM »
Gill,

Which body cell has a spirit and which doesn't?  When the skin cells of your pinky finger dies, does that cell's spirit float off into skin cell heaven? Why would it be bound in any way to it's symbiotic neighbor? Does an Anencephic baby have a "spirit"?

Going by Gill's parlance:

This morning I scrubbed the spirit off of the sides of the bathtub, and washed it down the drain with some more spirit.  I then excreted some spirit into the toilet-spirit...

Is this really how he views "spirit"?  I highly doubt it.  Which, again, makes me question his motives and honesty in proposing this idea.
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Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2011, 02:57:19 PM »
Yeah, expect in a singularity.

Eh?  A black hole's energy (and entropy) is measurable by its mass, or by the radius of its event horizon, combined with its angular momentum.

Could you give a reference for where you got this idea that singularity-energy was unmeasurable?

http://www.universaltheory.org/html/basics/singularity/singularity8.htm

Offline Gill

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2011, 03:08:49 PM »
Gill,

Which body cell has a spirit and which doesn't?  When the skin cells of your pinky finger dies, does that cell's spirit float off into skin cell heaven? Why would it be bound in any way to it's symbiotic neighbor? Does an Anencephic baby have a "spirit"?

Going by Gill's parlance:

This morning I scrubbed the spirit off of the sides of the bathtub, and washed it down the drain with some more spirit.  I then excreted some spirit into the toilet-spirit...

Is this really how he views "spirit"?  I highly doubt it.  Which, again, makes me question his motives and honesty in proposing this idea.

No no, I'm not saying 'spirit' here is analogous to a 'soul'.    But the idea of a 'spirit' or 'spiritual realm' , when I think of such things,  I usually associate it with concepts of something immaterial and indefinite.

Yet, when people talk about the spirit, being immaterial and what not, that's sometimes seen as silly, yet scientific explanations of reality use immaterial and indefinite ideas all the time to describe reality, and so the difference?  Because it's called 'science'?

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Re: Scientifically showing how you have a spirit.
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2011, 03:16:49 PM »
Gill,

Which body cell has a spirit and which doesn't?  When the skin cells of your pinky finger dies, does that cell's spirit float off into skin cell heaven? Why would it be bound in any way to it's symbiotic neighbor? Does an Anencephic baby have a "spirit"?

Going by Gill's parlance:

This morning I scrubbed the spirit off of the sides of the bathtub, and washed it down the drain with some more spirit.  I then excreted some spirit into the toilet-spirit...

Is this really how he views "spirit"?  I highly doubt it.  Which, again, makes me question his motives and honesty in proposing this idea.

No no, I'm not saying 'spirit' here is analogous to a 'soul'.    But the idea of a 'spirit' or 'spiritual realm' , when I think of such things,  I usually associate it with concepts of something immaterial and indefinite.

Yet, when people talk about the spirit, being immaterial and what not, that's sometimes seen as silly, yet scientific explanations of reality use immaterial and indefinite ideas all the time to describe reality, and so the difference?  Because it's called 'science'?

Energy is able to describe a lot of things.  For example, the computer you're typing on uses electrical energy to turn on, light the screen etc.  It is immaterial but usable, understandable and practical.  Your idea of a spirit is quite the opposite, its something you're assuming to exist because of your theology and then grasping at straws to make science support it.