Author Topic: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?  (Read 19851 times)

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #464 on: January 12, 2012, 01:08:53 PM »
Alright.  Based on that, I think I can explain my position more clearly.  His idea suggested a line interpretation to me, that there would be no divergence possible outside of random permutations, so it will always follow the same path using the same steps.  I don't agree with that beyond a certain point.  I think that there is divergence made possible through the interconnections between the brain and the mind, so I see it as a cone instead, because I don't think a given choice can be predicted with absolute certainty in something like the human brain, as the save-state idea suggests, even with the absence of random chance.  That does not mean that I think any choice is possible.  Choices that fall outside that cone will not happen without outside intervention.

Basically, every choice will be made using existing knowledge and experience, so you can get a pretty good idea of how someone will act.  I just don't think you can guarantee that they would act in such a way, even barring randomness.

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #465 on: January 12, 2012, 01:11:10 PM »
You feel tired,  you admit this is a sign you need to sleep.   Yet, if you feel a sense of responsibility for a degree of your actions,  you dismiss this sense as an illusion.   

Nope.  I can look at the cause and effect - I can see the actions, and compare them to the societal norms that I identify with.  No illusion there at all - its analagous to "feeling sleepy".

What YOU have been claiming is that you can "intuit" things as true without any definable and verifiable evidence.  And you have been trying to claim that such claims should be given equal weight as other claims that CAN be verified.  That's a very dishonest way of doing things.  The two claims are not alalogous for precisely that reason.

I can, simple.  I can intuit right now how hungry I am.   I don't need verification to know this.   Applying some sort of logical reasoning to it is also unnecessary.

So by your logic you can intuit how hungry I am at this point, since your intuition does not come from any internal evidence.  How hungry am I?

I do think it comes from internal evidence.  Intuition to me, is something I 'just know', sense, without having to formulate any formal proof.   As far as it applying to other people and external things, it's not always applicable.

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #466 on: January 12, 2012, 01:15:28 PM »
The people who are proposing objectively-free will are saying this.  If you are not one of those, then Anfauglir's argument is not directed at you.
I'm not exactly sure what objectively free will is supposed to be.  If I had to guess, I'd say that it's the ability to make decisions independent of past experiences, and if so, you're right - I don't think that's correct.  I know better than to think that a person can snap their fingers and suddenly change their behaviors.  The mental inertia of experience is hard to overcome, and it becomes harder still as a person gets older.

"Objectively free will" is the kind espoused by the likes of Gill, Lucifer, and Gnu - the ability of our minds to break the laws of physics in such a way that physical causality does not hold in our brains the way it does in other matter.

I don't think the laws of physics have to be broken to have objective free will.   As I said, the ability to imagine a possible future, then make a choice based on that;  the action then is being based on a reality which doesn't exist,  therefore, how could the choice be wholly bound by past events?

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #467 on: January 12, 2012, 01:17:52 PM »
Really the simple solution is to form a premise that the known laws of physics don't apply to all known mental processes.   But if you base your premise on the assumption that they do, of course you will bind yourself to the logic of determinism.

Online One Above All

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #468 on: January 12, 2012, 01:20:14 PM »
Really the simple solution is to form a premise that the known laws of physics don't apply to all known mental processes.   But if you base your premise on the assumption that they do, of course you will bind yourself to the logic of determinism.

Or you form a premise that the laws of physics allow for free will, rather than start proposing magical nonsense.
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Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #469 on: January 12, 2012, 01:44:54 PM »
well, yeah, that works too.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #470 on: January 12, 2012, 01:55:31 PM »
Or you form a premise that the laws of physics allow for free will, rather than start proposing magical nonsense.

A distinction without a difference.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #471 on: January 12, 2012, 01:56:21 PM »
I don't think the laws of physics have to be broken to have objective free will.   As I said, the ability to imagine a possible future, then make a choice based on that;  the action then is being based on a reality which doesn't exist,  therefore, how could the choice be wholly bound by past events?

Because imagination is a physical act of the brain.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #472 on: January 12, 2012, 01:58:58 PM »
I don't think the laws of physics have to be broken to have objective free will.   As I said, the ability to imagine a possible future, then make a choice based on that;  the action then is being based on a reality which doesn't exist,  therefore, how could the choice be wholly bound by past events?

Because imagination is a physical act of the brain.

But I wouldn't be consciously basing my choice on physical things in my brain,  I'd be basing it on things which don't even physically exist.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #473 on: January 12, 2012, 02:01:20 PM »
You'd be basing the choice on your thoughts, which are physical things in the brain.  The future itself doesn't swoop into your brain and give you prescience.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #474 on: January 12, 2012, 02:03:12 PM »
You'd be basing the choice on your thoughts, which are physical things in the brain.  The future itself doesn't swoop into your brain and give you prescience.

But I'm not though.  I have no idea what's going on inside my brain.   Which is why, my choices aren't based on physical things happening in my brain.   

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #475 on: January 12, 2012, 02:04:37 PM »
*sigh*

The choice is a physical process carried out by your brain.  You don't know how all the muscle cells are behaving inside your hand when you type, either, but that doesn't mean that typing isn't a purely physical process.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #476 on: January 12, 2012, 02:05:25 PM »
But I'm not though.  I have no idea what's going on inside my brain.   Which is why, my choices aren't based on physical things happening in my brain.

wow.  Nomatter your willful ignorance, your brain is still the thing making choices and all through very physical processes. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #477 on: January 12, 2012, 02:07:06 PM »
*sigh*

The choice is a physical process carried out by your brain.  You don't know how all the muscle cells are behaving inside your hand when you type, either, but that doesn't mean that typing isn't a purely physical process.

Just because there's a physical process happening, doesn't mean the physical process is in control.     How can you possibly claim, that your choices are wholly based on physical processes in the brain, when you aren't even aware of a fraction of what those physical processes are?

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #478 on: January 12, 2012, 02:10:02 PM »
But I'm not though.  I have no idea what's going on inside my brain.   Which is why, my choices aren't based on physical things happening in my brain.

wow.  Nomatter your willful ignorance, your brain is still the thing making choices and all through very physical processes.

My brain isn't making any choices, I am.   

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #479 on: January 12, 2012, 02:12:00 PM »
Just because there's a physical process happening, doesn't mean the physical process is in control.     How can you possibly claim, that your choices are wholly based on physical processes in the brain, when you aren't even aware of a fraction of what those physical processes are?

The same way you and I can re: our typing hands.

I mean, you can't *prove* that mystical forces aren't involved in your hand's typing processes, just like I can't *prove* that they aren't involved in my brain's thinking processes.  What's lacking is any reason to posit them in the first place, nor any coherent idea of how they'd even work.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Samothec

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #480 on: January 12, 2012, 02:14:42 PM »
His idea is that if absolutely everything is the same at time X + 0, then the result will be the same at any time X + Y.  Which is not necessarily true, if quantum-mechanical randomness creates any differences, but barring those - is there another way for it to be different?

Free willers say yes.  I'm not convinced.

I don't think you can dismiss the quantum-mechanical fluctuations. The discussion is going very deeply into that territory when talking about a perfect restart of even just one brain, much less the whole universe.

Admittedly, until you wrote that things didn't click for me to be able to say this.

But even at time X+1 the subatomic movements of quarks and gluons within a nucleus could be different (not that we can say what actually happens on that scale with certainty yet). Multiply those miniscule differences by the mass of the brain and dividing by the fact that many of those differences don't matter, you'd still have a slight difference. Is that difference enough to effect a change? Sometimes yes, sometimes no but it is possible.

So, the save-state universe restart would actually produce at least miniscule differences.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #481 on: January 12, 2012, 02:17:55 PM »
Where did I dismiss those influences?  I said "barring" them.  As in, "other than them".  And said that his proposition is not necessarily true, because of them.

I said "barring" them, because unless you believe that your consciousness somehow automatically determines how those quantum mechanical fluctuations evolve, I don't see how they are relevant to free-will.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #482 on: January 12, 2012, 02:18:38 PM »
Just because there's a physical process happening, doesn't mean the physical process is in control.     How can you possibly claim, that your choices are wholly based on physical processes in the brain, when you aren't even aware of a fraction of what those physical processes are?

The same way you and I can re: our typing hands.

I mean, you can't *prove* that mystical forces aren't involved in your hand's typing processes, just like I can't *prove* that they aren't involved in my brain's thinking processes.  What's lacking is any reason to posit them in the first place, nor any coherent idea of how they'd even work.

I don't see anything mystical about it.     It's all rational.   

If I start with the premise that all my choices and awareness is the product of physical processes in my brain;   then ,   why should I assume that the physical processes which are producing this premise, this idea, are producing a true idea?   It's nothing other than an assumption.   Well,  I assume that such process aren't producing all of this since it makes more sense to me otherwise.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #483 on: January 12, 2012, 02:22:40 PM »
You should assume physicality because that's how other matter works, and you have no reason to believe that once matter stops following those physical principles once it is incorporated into your brain cells.

The "true idea" question is a red herring.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #484 on: January 12, 2012, 02:24:22 PM »
My brain isn't making any choices, I am.

you are your brain.  Send a bullet through it and you won't be you any longer.
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Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #485 on: January 12, 2012, 02:26:19 PM »
You should assume physicality because that's how other matter works, and you have no reason to believe that once matter stops following those physical principles once it is incorporated into your brain cells.

The "true idea" question is a red herring.

You believe the world is composed of matter, following laws.  Well if your brain is matter, following laws; then it's that matter, laws, which are producing the idea that there is matter , laws.   How do you know that process is producing a true idea?  You can't, it's just an assumption used to logically build off of.   And, when talking about certain parts of the mind, it fails in my experience, so I don't use it.

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #486 on: January 12, 2012, 02:27:46 PM »
My brain isn't making any choices, I am.

you are your brain.  Send a bullet through it and you won't be you any longer.

Send one through my heart and I'll die, doesn't mean I am my heart.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #487 on: January 12, 2012, 02:29:21 PM »
You believe the world is composed of matter, following laws.  Well if your brain is matter, following laws; then it's that matter, laws, which are producing the idea that there is matter , laws.   How do you know that process is producing a true idea?  You can't, it's just an assumption used to logically build off of.   And, when talking about certain parts of the mind, it fails in my experience, so I don't use it.

Again, red herring.  What does this have to do with physicality?  You could as well ask the same question about any concept of mind.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #488 on: January 12, 2012, 02:30:02 PM »
Send one through my heart and I'll die, doesn't mean I am my heart.

No, you aren't only your heart and it's not the same thing.  Brain damage changes *you*.  without your brain, there is no *you*.  You can have your heart replaced with a machine.  Not so (yet) with a brain. 

And define "true idea". 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #489 on: January 12, 2012, 02:31:42 PM »
You believe the world is composed of matter, following laws.  Well if your brain is matter, following laws; then it's that matter, laws, which are producing the idea that there is matter , laws.   How do you know that process is producing a true idea?  You can't, it's just an assumption used to logically build off of.   And, when talking about certain parts of the mind, it fails in my experience, so I don't use it.

Again, red herring.  What does this have to do with physicality?  You could as well ask the same question about any concept of mind.

It has to do with how trying to apply physicality to all concepts fails.   

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #490 on: January 12, 2012, 02:32:47 PM »
Send one through my heart and I'll die, doesn't mean I am my heart.

No, you aren't only your heart and it's not the same thing.  Brain damage changes *you*.  without your brain, there is no *you*.  You can have your heart replaced with a machine.  Not so (yet) with a brain. 

And define "true idea".

That's fine, keep believing that all you are is matter, and everyone else too, when you are all so much more then that.....

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #491 on: January 12, 2012, 02:33:27 PM »
It has to do with how trying to apply physicality to all concepts fails.

I know how you're trying to apply it.  But as I said, it attacks all concepts of mind equally.  What the mind is made of is irrelevant to the (supposed) problem.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Samothec

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #492 on: January 12, 2012, 02:34:27 PM »
The choice is a physical process carried out by your brain.  You don't know how all the muscle cells are behaving inside your hand when you type, either, but that doesn't mean that typing isn't a purely physical process.
Just because there's a physical process happening, doesn't mean the physical process is in control.     How can you possibly claim, that your choices are wholly based on physical processes in the brain, when you aren't even aware of a fraction of what those physical processes are?

Bold mine, highlighting something very questionable. How did you come up with this very false idea? Medical science has determined what happens in the brain. No one is completely aware of their bodily functions and no one needs to be. Almost all of the body is autonomic functions. The part in bold indicates that you failed biology.


I have no idea what's going on inside my brain.

Thank you for saying so. That is so very true about you.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther