Author Topic: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?  (Read 44003 times)

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Offline Gill

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Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« on: December 17, 2011, 04:55:13 PM »
The idea that life descended from a common ancestor, I don't think can be argued much, since there is much evidence for this.   However, the problem with evolution is the proposed mechanism, natural selection.

Natural selection is a deterministic philosophy.  It is attributing the causality of survival of an organism to the initial genes an organism inherits.  There is no attribution to the free-will or choices of the organism in the cause of the survival.

As is so, Darwin himself did not believe in free-will.   Therefore,  it would seem he is arguing for his own imprisonment, to the uncontrollable mechanism of his genetics which will determine his survival. 

??
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 04:57:44 PM by Gill »

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2011, 05:22:27 PM »
Quote
Philosophy is the study of general and fundamental problems, such as those connected with existence, knowledge, values, reason, mind, and language.[1][2] These topics are sometimes defined as those where factual certainties are not easily established by scientific or other means.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy


Not sure where you are coming from. Natural selection is easily established by scientific means, and I wouldn't call it a philosophy.

Anyways, natural selection is not just "attributing the causality of an organism to the initial genes it inherits."

Quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_selection
Quote
Variation exists within all populations of organisms. This occurs partly because random mutations cause changes in the genome of an individual organism, and these mutations can be passed to offspring. Throughout the individuals’ lives, their genomes interact with their environments to cause variations in traits.

Survival is also dependent upon the ability to adapt. Free will or not, I'm thinking our choices of which environments we decide to interact with cause variations in traits.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2011, 05:24:48 PM »
The idea that life descended from a common ancestor, I don't think can be argued much, since there is much evidence for this.   However, the problem with evolution is the proposed mechanism, natural selection.

Natural selection is a deterministic philosophy.  It is attributing the causality of survival of an organism to the initial genes an organism inherits.  There is no attribution to the free-will or choices of the organism in the cause of the survival.

As is so, Darwin himself did not believe in free-will.   Therefore,  it would seem he is arguing for his own imprisonment, to the uncontrollable mechanism of his genetics which will determine his survival. 

??

Gill, you do know plants follow evolution too, right? Do they make choices of their own free will?  The mechanisms that guide evolution in the plant world (natural selection) are the same mechanisms that guide evolution in the animal world.  It works the same.  There is no difference. 

Free will is an illusion Gill.  Sorry.  The fact that you don't like it is not a reason to dismiss it.  I don't like that ice cream makes me fat, but it does, and I don't live as if it doesn't.  You can't see or predict what happens to you, and you can not predict what happens to other people around you and the impact it will have on you, so it may FEEL like you have free will, but you don't. 


Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2011, 05:35:16 PM »
The idea that life descended from a common ancestor, I don't think can be argued much, since there is much evidence for this.   However, the problem with evolution is the proposed mechanism, natural selection.

Natural selection is a deterministic philosophy.  It is attributing the causality of survival of an organism to the initial genes an organism inherits.  There is no attribution to the free-will or choices of the organism in the cause of the survival.

As is so, Darwin himself did not believe in free-will.   Therefore,  it would seem he is arguing for his own imprisonment, to the uncontrollable mechanism of his genetics which will determine his survival. 

??

Gill, you do know plants follow evolution too, right? Do they make choices of their own free will?  The mechanisms that guide evolution in the plant world (natural selection) are the same mechanisms that guide evolution in the animal world.  It works the same.  There is no difference. 

Free will is an illusion Gill.  Sorry.  The fact that you don't like it is not a reason to dismiss it.  I don't like that ice cream makes me fat, but it does, and I don't live as if it doesn't.  You can't see or predict what happens to you, and you can not predict what happens to other people around you and the impact it will have on you, so it may FEEL like you have free will, but you don't.

I respectfully disagree.  I believe it is an illusion to see one's self as bound by laws, which are simply one aspect of reality, that one man chose to focus on.

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2011, 05:45:28 PM »
Survival is also dependent upon the ability to adapt. Free will or not, I'm thinking our choices of which environments we decide to interact with cause variations in traits.

Choice doesn't seem to mean much if you believe in a deterministic world.

Maybe a resolution to this problem is that certain genes determined people to be free?  That's not out of the question  to me.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2011, 05:55:05 PM »
Weather or not my decision to live in the arctic was an act of will or the effect of a previous cause, the accumulative effect over many generations of my offspring should cause variations in traits.

But I don't have to like it.
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Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 06:01:34 PM »
Weather or not my decision to live in the arctic was an act of will or the effect of a previous cause, the accumulative effect over many generations of my offspring should cause variations in traits.

But I don't have to like it.

Well what do you feel like it was?  A choice, or some involuntary movement?

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 06:07:19 PM »
Weather or not my decision to live in the arctic was an act of will or the effect of a previous cause, the accumulative effect over many generations of my offspring should cause variations in traits.

But I don't have to like it.

Well what do you feel like it was?  A choice, or some involuntary movement?

My feelings have little bearing on the reality of things.

It seems as though I can chose to move to the arctic. But then I certainly can't chose to shoot laser beams out of my eyes. So I don't really have a strong opinion on free will. My main point was that I don't see natural selection as having anything to do with Darwin's or my philosophy.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 06:08:23 PM »
Natural selection is a deterministic philosophy.  It is attributing the causality of survival of an organism to the initial genes an organism inherits.  There is no attribution to the free-will or choices of the organism in the cause of the survival.

Natural selection is observed directly.  It incorporates what you see as "free will" as a selection factor.

What's the problem?

EDIT:  For a comparison, the science of commercial advertising is just as much of a "deterministic philosophy".  Does that mean that advertisments don't work?
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 06:24:05 PM »
I respectfully disagree.  I believe it is an illusion to see one's self as bound by laws, which are simply one aspect of reality, that one man chose to focus on.

/shrug.  Suit yourself.  You seem to do a lot of believing in things that make you feel better that you have no proof of.  I don't see why this should be any different. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 06:32:31 PM »
Well what do you feel like it was?  A choice, or some involuntary movement?

Gill, do you believe that everyone has a destiny?  I peg you for a destiny guy.  If you do, please describe the way it works. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2011, 06:40:15 PM »
Well what do you feel like it was?  A choice, or some involuntary movement?

Gill, do you believe that everyone has a destiny?  I peg you for a destiny guy.  If you do, please describe the way it works.

Nah, I don't know why you'd think that.  My over-all point of this thread was to point out the deterministic aspect of evolution and I don't believe in determinism being applied to all things, all of reality. 

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2011, 06:43:52 PM »
Could you give some examples of both?

Things that are determined and things that aren't.
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Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2011, 06:51:11 PM »
Sure, people could say gravity follows certain deterministic principles.   Knowledge about the gravity though is was gives people some freedom from it's restraints,  flying a rocket out to space for instance.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2011, 07:08:09 PM »
So knowledge of certain deterministic principles allows us to overcome them?
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2011, 07:12:17 PM »
Oh, yeah. What about an example of something that is not deterministic?
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Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2011, 07:19:17 PM »
How is that deterministic? 

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2011, 07:24:28 PM »
The alternative to some sort of determinism, is randomness.

Are you saying that our thoughts are random, Gill?
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2011, 07:27:58 PM »
Just trying to understand your example. Could you give an opposite example?

ADDED:
OK, I re-read  your example You said people COULD say gravity is deterministic. Are you saying you don't think it is because we can fire rockets into space?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2011, 07:36:13 PM by monkeymind »
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Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2011, 07:47:31 PM »
I'm trying to say, I guess, hehe, this is starting to get confusing, that, yeah, gravity is deterministic, but only when considering certain aspects of it.

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #20 on: December 17, 2011, 07:47:54 PM »
Gill the most obviously pre-destined universe is that created by an omniscient god.

And you cannot dodge with "free will" arguments because your god either knows everything at the moment of our creation (including our end)
....or he doesn't.
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2011, 07:48:23 PM »
I have to go to dinner and a movie.

I'll return  later to continue on the topic.

I'm asking honest questions with no intention of delivering a sucker punch.

It seems like there are two conversations going on at once. One about philosophy and one about natural selection. I can't see the connection between the two.
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Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2011, 08:19:15 PM »
Gill the most obviously pre-destined universe is that created by an omniscient god.

And you cannot dodge with "free will" arguments because your god either knows everything at the moment of our creation (including our end)
....or he doesn't.

I don't see why it would necessarily have to be an either/or type situation.

But anyways, I'm a little to tired to try to expand on that idea further,  I'll just leave with the idea,  that kind of comes back to the original point, which is I don't think my genes determine all I do.   I have consciousness, the ability to reason and experience,  such as the people here, so limiting everything to genes I think is an oversimplification....

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #23 on: December 17, 2011, 08:33:19 PM »
Whose position is it that genes determine everything you do?

Does anyone ever seriously propose that idea?
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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #24 on: December 17, 2011, 09:09:43 PM »
Whose position is it that genes determine everything you do?

Does anyone ever seriously propose that idea?

It's certainly not a part of the theory of evolution.

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2011, 07:27:30 AM »
A good article on this, kind of echos my interpretation...

http://evolutionaryphilosophy.com/2009/04/20/conscious-evolution-and-freewill/

But yeah, maybe we're just interpreting it incorrectly or not fully...

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2011, 07:56:55 AM »
The idea that life descended from a common ancestor, I don't think can be argued much, since there is much evidence for this.   However, the problem with evolution is the proposed mechanism, natural selection.

Natural selection is a deterministic philosophy.  It is attributing the causality of survival of an organism to the initial genes an organism inherits.  There is no attribution to the free-will or choices of the organism in the cause of the survival.

As is so, Darwin himself did not believe in free-will.   Therefore,  it would seem he is arguing for his own imprisonment, to the uncontrollable mechanism of his genetics which will determine his survival. 

??

I think the fundamental flaw in your understand is how the mechanism of natural selection works.  To sum it up briefly: Natural selection works on the community level, not the individual level.  Organisms with favorable genes are more likely to pass them on than those with unfavorable genes. This is not to say that unfavorable genes never get passed on or that all individuals with favorable genes pass their genes on.  It means on average individuals with favorable genes are more likely to pass those genes on to the next generation.

Despite being a determinist myself, the actions (your free will) taken by the individual as well as bad luck can both contribute to an INDIVIDUAL'S survival.  And again, evolution and natural selection don't operate on the individual level.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 08:07:18 AM by free »

Offline Gill

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2011, 08:05:51 AM »
Never thought of it that way, thanks for the input....   

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Evolutionists, arguing for their own imprisonment?
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2011, 10:00:17 AM »
Shooting from the hip here. I have spent very little time contemplating evolution or determinism.

I think the confusion comes from what appear to be contradictions (determinism and free will). The problem is a matter of scale.

Using your gravity example...With Newton’s understanding of gravity we are able to send rockets into space, and land things on the moon with a high degree of accuracy.

In a universe where things pop in and out of existence “here” from some”where” else, and where gravity can act as a repulsive force, we can exert no control.
 
Things on a much larger or much smaller scale than  where we “live”  (somewhere in the middle) influence us to a much greater extent than we can influence it (or can rise above it, work around it, etc.).

As Free said, evolution operates on a larger scale (community). My choices allow me to affect outcomes on the individual level, but many things are already “decided” for me by my genome.

So I can choose certain things at one level, but on other levels I have no control. Therefore, although I can choose to move to the arctic, I still can’t shoot laser beams from my eyes (at least not yet, I’m working on it).
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 10:19:50 AM by monkeymind »
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