Author Topic: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible  (Read 8752 times)

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Offline fishjie

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #203 on: February 10, 2012, 07:41:15 PM »

Talking about "moonlight" is simply a leftover from centuries, if not millennia, of linguistic custom.  It no more means that one thinks the moon gives off its own light than talking about "sunrise" means that you think the sun actually rises from below the horizon.  (Besides, saying "sunlight reflected by the moon" would be a pain in the neck, anyway.)

 Thank you. You expressed the point I was making perfectly.

That linguistic custom is because the primitive tribes from back in the day THOUGHT moon gave off light.   duh.    just like they thought the sun rose every day.    if they had known otherwise, we would be referring to it as something else.    it wasn't a figure of speech for them, it was what they understood.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #204 on: February 11, 2012, 10:49:29 AM »
OS just doesn't understand where certain idioms come from. He really thinks that bronze age goat herders truly understood everything there was to know about the universe correctly. They just said certain things like the Earth is flat, there's a solid dome above holding back an ocean and that the moon gave off light, only because it looked like it... not because they actually thought something that ludicrous. They knew that one day humans would discover that Mr. Lightning doesn't have a house. Mr. Sun doesn't really get woken up by YHWH every morning and that the Earth really spins on it's axis, that there's no storehouses where snow and hail are kept. They really knew the truth, but instead just chose to make it appear that they were claiming the opposite is true! This is just YHWH's perfect way of telling us that we really don't need to know any of this stuff... all we ever needed to know and learn is in the Buybull: Keep your mouth shut, don't think, and just do as you're told.

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #205 on: February 12, 2012, 03:05:34 PM »

1. No you don't.  I already explained why you know nothing about god several posts ago.
The equation where finite / infinite = zero?The final number may 'round' to zero but that isn't "nothing".Compared to the mineral wealth of an infinite universe, 1000 lbs. of solid gold may divide out to 'zero', however it would change my plans for the weekend if it was given to me.


2. Even if you did, your faith is blind in every other way possible.

how much "knowing" of God   does it take to open the eyes of our faith do you suppose? He certainly gave me enough.It's like asking "How many answered prayers or miracles does it take to  prove God?" Just one.


When I said faith does not change reality I meant, if your wife is banging your best friend, your faith in her will not alter that reality.  It will not erase all the past times they did It.  Faith in American Airlines will not keep your plane aloft if the wing falls off.  Faith - that is what people truly believe - can affect reality, but in different ways.  Look at the people who followed Charles Manson or Jim Jones.  Reality was affected. People will do things because of it.  Sometimes those things will be kind and altruistic.  Other times, they will be cruel and barbaric.

 Faith has changed reality for people.On it 'lowest levels', that which affects the temporal, blind eyes have been opened.People raised from the dead ( etc.).



That's one way of looking at it.  But then that boils all faith anyone has in anything down to faith in their ability to evaluate reality and know the truth of it.  And if that is the case, then the people with the best methodology of knowing what is true have the best faith.  I would say that means scientists.

I believe the one with the best understanding of reality would be the One who created it.As a Bible believer any comprehensive understanding of "real" reality has to include a spiritual realm.


It comes back to the four most important words – how do you know?

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.   Ro. 8:16


That is a statement of faith.  Faith is not a basis for knowledge.  We've been over this.

That is  a description of an experience.Knowledge is derived from experience.

When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #206 on: February 12, 2012, 11:37:44 PM »
... and God created the sun on day 4.

Are you saying there can't be light without the sun?

Genesis says that light and dark were created as separate entities, that apparently the Earth rotated inside, for 4 days, before the sun and stars were created.

Plants were created before the sun was.

The waters parted, and created the blue sky, which the heavenly light shone through (without sun).

Genesis says that the sun was created to 'rule' the day, not to create the day. The moon was to 'rule' the night. The sun, stars and moon were all created in the upper atmosphere, below the water, where the birds also flew. They were created for 'signs', not because they had other planets around them.

The people who wrote Genesis did not understand that the blue sky was created by atmospheric scattering, and that there is no water above the sun.

Although Christians can fudge the Bible to make all the stories fit, the person who wrote Genesis made some guesses, that were later discovered to be wrong, 2300 years later. That is, he got caught out, because this type of knowledge takes real understanding and study of nature. Any other place where the Bible talks about nature, it is also wrong; be it evolution, 4 legged insects, breeding striped goats, the northern abyss, bats=fowl. Consistently, there is nothing in the Bible that would indicate advanced knowledge of the Earth.

Missing from the creation story in genesis is any hint of knowledge beyond what a dickhead in 600BC would know.

If the dickhead who wrote Genesis knew that the universe was 13billion years old, and that stars were suns, and that the sun created the day, he would have written it like this:

In the beginning, God created the light
God saw the light was good, and so he let it form the stars in the great expanse
On the second day, when the stars were made, God found one he called the Sun.
Around the sun, he created Earth, which was formless and without waters
The light of the sun shone upon the Earth, and it was good.
On the third day, God made the seas, and started the life from within.
The life in the seas, grew into greater forms, which God called the animals
On the fourth day, one animal came to land and moved amongst the green plants
God grew this form into all the animals and birds
On the fifth day, God nurtured one special animal to become a man and a woman.
He gave the man dominion over all the animals, and made the woman his wife.

Now, if this was the current form of Genesis, atheists would still likely try to pick holes in it, but it would be heavy-going. However, we are very lucky, because the dick who wrote the Genesis we have, really stuck his ignorant neck out, and screwed up the Bible.  Now you have a book in your sacred Bible, which is obviously crap.

Can't get a better deal than that for atheists.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #207 on: February 13, 2012, 02:50:56 AM »
"The Sky was rolled up like a scroll..." Revelations because it's, "Streached across the Earth like a tent." Yup, Sky = Solid object.

"And 1/3 of All the stars fell out of the sky upon the Earth and it's inhabitants..." Revelations. You know what would happen if 1 star only got close to the Earth, right? that the smallest stars are about the size of the Earth? Yet, 1/3 of all the stars in the universe are supposed to move from thier position and then instantly fall upon PEOPLE, like hail. Because according to John who saw the end of the world clearly states that Stars are truly as big as they look.

Lies in Genesis, lies in Revelations... and the Bible is supposed to be the inerrent word from a perfect god? That YHWH wants a relationship with us? What kind of relationship is it that starts out based on lies and ends based on lies?


Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #208 on: February 13, 2012, 08:37:47 AM »
The equation where finite / infinite = zero?The final number may 'round' to zero but that isn't "nothing".Compared to the mineral wealth of an infinite universe, 1000 lbs. of solid gold may divide out to 'zero', however it would change my plans for the weekend if it was given to me.

you are talking about local economics.  Completely different analogy.  And I was not just talking about dividing by infinity[1].   There were several other points that went with it.

how much "knowing" of God   does it take to open the eyes of our faith do you suppose? He certainly gave me enough. 

Yeah, well, let's face it, you are exactly the kind of person the god virus is designed for.  You are just bright enough to do the mental gymnastics required to avoid facing the truth.  You are only dimly aware of science.  You want to believe.  You buy into all the foundational concepts without question - the idea that faith is a good thing, spirits are real, etc, for example.

I've shown you how you do not know anything about god.  At best, you have some poor idea of what some people 2000 years ago said about god, which is plagued with cultural misunderstandings and 2000 years of lost information.  And still, you plug away, as if you've not read my posts.  As I said before, you insist that faith be blind and absolute.

Faith has changed reality for people.On it 'lowest levels', that which affects the temporal, blind eyes have been opened.People raised from the dead ( etc.).

wtf are you talking about?  People raised fromt the dead?  Nobody has been raised from the dead.


I believe the one with the best understanding of reality would be the One who created it.

That is off topic and preaching.  Knock it off or I'll have to use my green text.

As a Bible believer any comprehensive understanding of "real" reality has to include a spiritual realm.

As I said before, puts the cart before the horse. You've not seen or demonstrated a "spiritual realm".  Nobody has.

The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.   Ro. 8:16

Statements of faith do not validate statements of faith.  Unless you stop doing that, I'm not going to respond.

 1. That is not a rounding, by they way.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #209 on: February 13, 2012, 10:49:45 AM »

Talking about "moonlight" is simply a leftover from centuries, if not millennia, of linguistic custom.  It no more means that one thinks the moon gives off its own light than talking about "sunrise" means that you think the sun actually rises from below the horizon.  (Besides, saying "sunlight reflected by the moon" would be a pain in the neck, anyway.)

 Thank you. You expressed the point I was making perfectly.

OS, you have tried to claim that the bible authors "really meant" that the moon was a reflector, rather than a light sources as they said.   There is nothing to support that claim and plenty to show that this is not the case.  Your actions are typical, a Christian who realizes his supposed holy book is flawed and tries to make up excuses for it in an attempt to make it more than it is.   So much for your supposed "faith". 
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 10:51:32 AM by velkyn »
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #210 on: February 13, 2012, 07:12:37 PM »

you are talking about local economics.  Completely different analogy.  And I was not just talking about dividing by infinity[1].   There were several other points that went with it.
 1. That is not a rounding, by they way.

Then I don't follow.Just because God is infinite doesn't mean He can't make Himself known to us.We have that capacity because we were created with it.Not that we can understand everything about Him but, Jesus being the expression of His nature, we can certainly know enough.


Yeah, well, let's face it, you are exactly the kind of person the god virus is designed for.  You are just bright enough to do the mental gymnastics required to avoid facing the truth.

But not bright enough to grasp reality? Does wisdom require a high IQ? Can a brilliant scholar be a fool?
 

  You are only dimly aware of science.

A better understanding of science means I wouldn't believe in God ? Apparently these guys never got that memo:
Sir Francis Bacon, Galileo Galilei,Rene Descartes,Blaise Pascal,Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle,Michael Faraday,  Johannes Kepler and so forth and so on.


  You want to believe.

So did you at some point I'd wager.I just didn't quit like you apparently did.


  You buy into all the foundational concepts without question

Incorrect once again.I questioned for years .


- the idea that faith is a good thing, spirits are real, etc, for example.

Because faith in God is a good thing and spirits are real.

I've shown you how you do not know anything about god.
Actually youv'e demonstrated over and again that you know nothing concerning God.


 At best, you have some poor idea of what some people 2000 years ago said about god, which is plagued with cultural misunderstandings and 2000 years of lost information.

I have an actual experience with God.Like you probably wanted at one time.


  And still, you plug away, as if you've not read my posts.  As I said before, you insist that faith be blind and absolute.

It may come as a surprise to your over-inflated sense of your own importance but your posts are of no value in regards to the things that matter in a persons life.Sorry.


wtf are you talking about?  People raised fromt the dead?  Nobody has been raised from the dead.

Jesus has.


That is off topic and preaching.  Knock it off or I'll have to use my green text.

In my neighborhood when you made a threat it generally required having something of value to

the other party to use as leverage against them.



Statements of faith do not validate statements of faith.  Unless you stop doing that, I'm not going to respond.

That is not anything other than me telling of my own experience.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Historicity

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #211 on: February 13, 2012, 07:42:36 PM »
wtf are you talking about?  People raised fromt the dead?  Nobody has been raised from the dead.

Jesus has.

And Tammuz and Osiris and Ishtar and Romulus and Persephone.  Asclepius was not but he raised other people from the dead.

Offline fishjie

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #212 on: February 13, 2012, 07:49:59 PM »


A better understanding of science means I wouldn't believe in God ? Apparently these guys never got that memo:
Sir Francis Bacon, Galileo Galilei,Rene Descartes,Blaise Pascal,Isaac Newton, Robert Boyle,Michael Faraday,  Johannes Kepler and so forth and so on.

they didn't know any better back then.     the world was still fairly ignorant.    today very few scientists (if any) believe in fairy tales.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #213 on: February 14, 2012, 12:59:21 AM »
onesteward, how do you know if it's god or your subconcious? or your id/Ego? intuition? Way back when, people didn't understand those things so they said it was god/holy spirit. Conscience: angels, and demons trying to get you to do good/bad things? same thing.

I think it's funny that onesteward's best scientist example goes something like this: as soon as humans figured out that the Earth was round, they should have known the truth about everything else as well. That they, should have in seconds, relinquish all hold of every other belief that has existed for thousands of years and have been child indoctrinated into. Because, it's just that simple!

Spirits, vampires, unreal expectations... onesteward doesn't have much of a grasp on reality.

You 'know' god, because god is you, Your Ego. That's why he knows you so well, and why god doesn't know anything you don't know. Pure SPAG.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 01:01:22 AM by TruthSeeker »

Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #214 on: February 14, 2012, 09:37:35 AM »
OS, you sure do continue with the baseless claims.  You can’t even show that your god exists, much less that it does anything that you claim.  No evidence for Jesus Christ, no evidence for any magical creation, no raising people from the dead, nothing.  You may as well be a Muslim insisting that Mohammed rode on a magic pony considering the lack of evidence for any of this nonsense.

You have yet to show that your myths are reality, so I feel quite comfortable in saying that you are delusional.  Wisdom, and real wisdom, not some mindless repetition of lies from an old book,  does in fact usually need a high IQ.  Despite the fantasies that the ignorant and intellectually challenged have some deep grasp of the meaning of life that have been promulgated by popular media, those people contribute little of use.  They are not fonts of wisdom in any sense.    A brilliant scholar can be a fool but only if they succumb to compartmentalization and pick and choose what facts to accept. 

You wish to list various scientists who were also theists.  Funny how they all are from at least a century or more ago.  Again, we see a desperate Christian appealing to the ignorant and the dead in their own ignorance of how those people lived.  They did not understand science better than we do now, and as the understanding of the universe has increased, religion has decreased.  Now, OS, want to appeal to Einstein too, and try to play pretend he was a ignorant evangelical Christian like you against all evidence?

You try to claim that Screwtape, just “quit” believing.   I’m sure he will school you on how that is not the case and is just one more desperate Christain trying to lie about an atheist. Those are always good to read.   And you claim that you “questioned for years”, but considering your absolute ignorance about other religions and science, this seems to be quite untrue.  Someone who questioned would have come to at least understand what they attacked, and you do not.   

You have also claimed that spirits are real.  Well, dear, please do show evidence of this claim.  Where are these spirits and what are they doing?  Again, OS, you make baseless claims like so many other types of theists.  A voodoun would claim that the loa are real, but you, like them have no evidence.  You also claim that you have had experience with God.  That’s what all theists claim and have yet to show it’s anything more than delusion and wishful thinking, such special snowflakes with nothing to show for it.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #215 on: February 14, 2012, 10:36:19 AM »
Then I don't follow.Just because God is infinite doesn't mean He can't make Himself known to us.

Yes, it does.  We have finite brains.  If you want to know the Pacific Ocean and someone gives you a juice glass full of water from it, you cannot say you know the Pacific Ocean in any sense.  And that analogy uses a finite body. The point gets more relevant as the ocean gets bigger and eventually becomes infinite.  How could a glass of water be relevant as a way to know even a finite ocean?

Now, I do see a potential way out.  Omnipotence.  yhwh, being able to do anything, would be able to make us know him.  But most xians would agree that omnipotence is actually limited.  For example, it can only do logically possible things.  In addition, if something physically impossible - ie breaks the known laws of the universe - it would require a miracle.  And as I have shown, knowing god would break the known laws of the universe.  yhwh would have to pack an infinite amount of "knowing" into someone's finite brain and make it possible for that person to comprehend it.  Additionally he would have to keep that lucky devil's head from exploding.

For you to use omnipotence as a way out you would have to show that:
1. yhwh's omnipotence is actual and not just reputation
2. the knowledge of yhwh is actually insightful beyond natural human capability, and
3. a miracle has occurred
4. for bonus points, show why, if he really wants everyone in heaven with him, he has he not shared this miracle with with everyone.  Specifically, me.


We have that capacity because we were created with it.  Not that we can understand everything about Him but, Jesus being the expression of His nature, we can certainly know enough.

Enough?  What's enough when infinite more is concealed?  For all you know jesus was a ruse, a clever ploy to lure us to goodness knows what horrible eternal fate.  yhwh could be like some carnivorous plant that uses sweet smelling flowers to lure in prey. 

But not bright enough to grasp reality?

The jury's still out, but the prosecution has made a very solid case.

 
A better understanding of science means I wouldn't believe in God ?

A better understanding of the scientific method and rationality would prevent you from saying much of the preposterous shit you've said here.  Maybe you would still believe in god, but you would not believe some of the peripheral garbage (which may be more harmful than godbelief itself) nor would you believe in god for the same stupid reasons.

Apparently these guys never got that memo:

Irrelevant.  Even your crude understanding of science would make many of their eyes pop out of their sockets.  They are men in a context.  If they knew what you knew (or I knew) they may very well have not believed.

You want to believe.

So did you at some point I'd wager.I just didn't quit like you apparently did.

Ah, so I'm a quitter.  Is that it?  Maybe I've not told you already, but I have certainly explained on this forum more than once - not believing was not a choice.  It was a realization.  I realized I no longer believed long after I actually stopped believing.  I went through the motions for months.

When I added up everything I knew and actually read the bible, it was the only conclusion I could come to.  It was not about quitting. It was exactly like when I realized there was no Santa Claus.  Absolutely no different in any way.  Telling me to believe now, on faith, without introducing new facts (actual, supported facts) would be like telling me to believe in Santa again.  I have no idea how to do that.  Do you?  Can you believe in Santa?  Go ahead, flip the switch, believe in Santa for the rest of this week.  Let me how that goes.


  You buy into all the foundational concepts without question

Incorrect once again.I questioned for years .

Which did you question?  Because I suspect you and I are not on the same page.


- the idea that faith is a good thing, spirits are real, etc, for example.

Because faith in God is a good thing...

Faith in god is like a tumor.  In the best case scenario, it is benign and doesn't really do anything too bad. 

...and spirits are real.

Sure, sure. Spirits.  So are witches and goblins and ghosts and pixies and werewolves and chupacabras and yeti.  You must find halloween absolutely terrifying.

When physicists hypothesize new particles they must have detailed explanations of how the particles work, including the math behind them.  They must also describe what evidence they should have and where and how to find that evidence.  Then they do experiments looking for that evidence.  If it appears as predicted, voila, knowledge has expanded.  If not, back to the drawing board.

The same approach should be taken with "spirits".  If they are real, they should leave some evidence, like every other real thing.  You should be able to predict that evidence, describe it and where it would be found.  Can you?  If so, you have a working hypothesis.  Your next step would be to gather evidence.

Actually youv'e demonstrated over and again that you know nothing concerning God.

That's funny.  I actually laughed[1].  You must be thinking about a different conversation with a different person.  You see, in this conversation, I've said a lot of things that goes against orthodox religion and with which you disagree, but which I have explained thoroughly and supported. You have said some things about mythical people and then supported those things with other mythical people, mythical processes and bald assertions.  If I have demonstrated utter ignorance of god, I've missed where that has actually been established.   

I have an actual experience with God.

Oooo!  Do tell.  Be specific and include details.


Like you probably wanted at one time.

Of course I would have wanted that.  Heck, if god is real, I still want it.  As I've said before, I want to believe what is true. 


It may come as a surprise to your over-inflated sense of your own importance but your posts are of no value in regards to the things that matter in a persons life.Sorry.

So defensive.

Jesus has.

Oh, that.  I think you probably know I don't buy that one and why. 

I thought you were talking about more contemporary examples.  I thought it was perhaps one of those loony Pentecostals choked on his own tongue in the midst of a "speaking in tongues" fit and the rest of them prayed over him and he awoke with only minor brain damage.  Or maybe someone had a heart attack and then miraculously revived (after 5 minutes of CPR and three zaps with a defibrillator).  Those seem to be what pass for examples of "raised from the dead" to most xians these days. 


In my neighborhood when you made a threat it generally required having something of value to
the other party to use as leverage against them.

It's not a threat.  It is the rules here.  You should reasonably stay on topic and preaching is not allowed.  Enforcing that is part of my role as a moderator - which I have not assumed to this point.  I'm just saying, please keep it on topic and don't preach. 

 1. sorry, I won't use "LOL".  It is beneath me.
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Offline fishjie

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #216 on: February 14, 2012, 02:24:07 PM »
oh also, how can anyone argue that faith is a good thing when faith is what causes war, bloodshed, and stupidity.

faith = belief without questioning and without critical thinking.    those are the sorts of things that hinder progress.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #217 on: February 14, 2012, 02:56:23 PM »
I always laugh because a shepherd watched over sheep so that predators would not eat them, but the shepherd's purpose was to defleece the sheep and slaughter them....

So yes, the analogy of the carviverous plant using  a sweet flower to lure prey works perfectly... or just use the analogy that Jesus uses, it works just fine.... and Jesus was so smart that he knew the word "sheep" would have a negative connotation in 2012 but he still used it and his flock is proud of it.

Hova and Jesus H are some true pimps and hustlaz

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #218 on: February 14, 2012, 06:34:58 PM »

Yes, it does.  We have finite brains.  If you want to know the Pacific Ocean and someone gives you a juice glass full of water from it, you cannot say you know the Pacific Ocean in any sense.  And that analogy uses a finite body. The point gets more relevant as the ocean gets bigger and eventually becomes infinite.  How could a glass of water be relevant as a way to know even a finite ocean?

I would think you could understand a great deal.Depending on how fully we could examine it.Worst case scenario wouldn't we know the Pacific Oceans very nature?We would know no matter what we were to find out ,it is salt water.Which compared to my present knowledge of the Atlantic would tell me quite a bit.By itself I'd know not to put it in my canteen to go hiking.

I can't really follow your reasoning about this.God although infinite was able to "fit", if that's the issue, His very nature in a single human being...His Son.It was God making the move towards us.He makes it plain enough that He desires communion with us.
We have all of His creation.We learn about ancient civilizations through the things they made , I think we learn about God through what He made.



Now, I do see a potential way out.  Omnipotence.  yhwh, being able to do anything, would be able to make us know him.  But most xians would agree that omnipotence is actually limited.  For example, it can only do logically possible things.  In addition, if something physically impossible - ie breaks the known laws of the universe - it would require a miracle.  And as I have shown, knowing god would break the known laws of the universe.  yhwh would have to pack an infinite amount of "knowing" into someone's finite brain and make it possible for that person to comprehend it.  Additionally he would have to keep that lucky devil's head from exploding.

How much understanding and knowing does it take to blow up a brain?

You are limiting yourself where God has not.Just as there are 'physical laws' there are 'spiritual laws' as well.Where you continue to believe 'knowing' is done exclusively in our brain The Word teaches us that is not the case.I mean it's Valentines Day.Even now we equate understanding how someone close to us feels or we let them know how we feel by the symbol of a heart.


For you to use omnipotence as a way out you would have to show that:
1. yhwh's omnipotence is actual and not just reputation
2. the knowledge of yhwh is actually insightful beyond natural human capability, and
3. a miracle has occurred

I don't need a way out.

 You'd have to do some amazing stuff to get the reputation for being "omnipotent".
 God is spirit, how can a natural human understand Him?
so because I do know Him a miracle must surely have happened.

4. for bonus points, show why, if he really wants everyone in heaven with him, he has he not shared this miracle with with everyone.  Specifically, me.

I think you are placing more value on His miracles that you should.I don't see , Scripturally anyhow, where miracles alone convinced everyone that Jesus was who He claimed to be.They accused Him of being "demonized' or they ignored them and did what "they wanted to do".Ending in His crucifixion. Rationalizing cuts both ways it seems.



Enough?  What's enough when infinite more is concealed?

I'm not claiming that we can know what He knows , my point is that we can know Him.


  For all you know jesus was a ruse, a clever ploy to lure us to goodness knows what horrible eternal fate.  yhwh could be like some carnivorous plant that uses sweet smelling flowers to lure in prey. 
I'm not trying to go into the "Wager" scenario here but if what you speculate is true it doesn't really matter what we do....we're all screwed.It just doesn't seem reasonable for them to lure us with what is taught in the Bible, we are to pick up our cross and follow Jesus.He carried His to the place He was crucified on it.

I think humanism would be more seductive : The end of all being is the happiness of man.


The jury's still out, but the prosecution has made a very solid case.

That just brings a powerful( to me) story to rememberance.It is in Act 25 and 26.

So the next day Agrippa and Bernice approached with great display, and they went into the audience hall accompanied by the military commandants and the prominent citizens of the city. At the order of Festus Paul was brought in.

    24Then Festus said, King Agrippa and all the men present with us, you see this man about whom the whole Jewish people came to me and complained, both at Jerusalem and here, insisting and shouting that he ought not to live any longer.

 All of the royal pomp and circumstance .Then Paul's testimony:

And as he thus proceeded with his defense, Festus called out loudly, Paul, you are mad! Your great learning is driving you insane!

    25But Paul replied, I am not mad, most noble Festus, but I am uttering the straight, sound truth.

After reading through Acts 25 and 26  it  occurred to me, Paul wasn't dragged in there to be judged by the Nobility but God had put him there to judge the royalty. That was their opportunity.

Sometimes things like this may not be what one might think they are.


 
Irrelevant.  Even your crude understanding of science would make many of their eyes pop out of their sockets.  They are men in a context.  If they knew what you knew (or I knew) they may very well have not believed.

You realize scientists are still christians today?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science

That is a very partial listing.I think a lot of those people on the list do know what either of us knows.


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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #219 on: February 15, 2012, 02:13:02 AM »

I think you are placing more value on His miracles that you should.I don't see , Scripturally anyhow, where miracles alone convinced everyone that Jesus was who He claimed to be.

The whole gospel of John is devoted to saying that you walk in the light if you believe that Jesus was messiah and did miracles.

[23] Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did.
[11] This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him.
[2] The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
[14] Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
[26] Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.
[31] And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
[41] And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.


But you are right. If he went around behaving like a jerk, they would not believe him, so they would crucify him. It's a bit of a problem to explain how someone who was omnipotent got lynched. Almost as if he was not practicing what he preached, and just went around annoying people.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #220 on: February 15, 2012, 04:00:14 AM »
Humanism. Our problem is spiritual and unable to be improved by natural means. Obviously when "the end of all being" is human happiness or more appropriately , human selfishness, the results are obvious...We are able to pay $ 117000 per second on the Super Bowl commercials while huge portions of humanity are starving. God, I believe, gave charge of the earth to man and that's one small example of what we do with it. If " the enlightenment" was to bring us to a place where reason was to improve "the human condition' it gets an Epic Fail. It can keep the gift.
Humanism has nothing to do with the rest of that paragraph (which demonstrates greed and selfishness).

That puts the cart before the horse.  That begs the question.  What spiritual things?  What organs are our spiritual sensory organs?  How does that work?  You seem to be making up imaginary senses to rationalize imaginary people.
Our spirits themselves. Spiritually , we are dead until we are born again. Then by The Holy Spirit we become alive. We are able to understand spiritual truth at that point.
I was born-again[1]. So, by your idea I am spiritually alive and understand spiritual truth. So when I tell you that I know that either God does not exist or He is malevolent, what I am saying has significant weight according to you.

No one reads the Bible literally since no one admits to the Creator's malevolence. Questions to help you begin to understand:

What existed before God spoke? Was it an endless void? Was there light? Isn't another name for an endless dark void, the Abyss? Didn't God dwell alone in the Abyss at the start?

Isn't God all-knowing? If God really didn't want Adam & Eve eating from the Tree, wouldn't he have put it in New Zealand? If a chess grand master can figure out a lesser opponent's moves ahead of time, couldn't God have deduced Adam & Eve's reactions to the talking snake He put in the Garden?

Why did God goad Cain? Why did he then absolve Cain and allow him  to marry and raise a prosperous family? Did God want Cain to kill? Did He want man to be truly in His image?

Didn't He drown the whole world (except for his pet Noah) because man had become too evil?

God shows His love for us every day through the suffering He gifts us with. This is why He arranged for Adam & Eve to fail and be thrown out of the Garden. Why he goaded Cain into murder then sent him away into a prosperous life. Why Job suffered. Why we have disease and cancer. Why we have contradictions between every holy book and reality. Why there are so many holy books and religions. So we can suffer and question – filling His heart with pure joy.

If I still had faith, this would be my faith because it is the only God that can be real. God is only mysterious to those who do not understand Him.

If you want me to be your spiritual leader please send me one tenth of your income.
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #221 on: February 15, 2012, 10:01:34 AM »
I would think you could understand a great deal...Worst case scenario wouldn't we know the Pacific Oceans very nature?

Its very nature?  That it is salty?  Imagine traveling to some small town in say, Kansas, where they've never seen an ocean and given their state of education, probably not heard of it either.  And to explain to them the Pacific ocean you simply hand them the juice glass of salty water.  "There," you say, "is the ocean."  It conveys nothing of the size or depth.  It tells them nothing of sharks, whales, atolls, coral reefs, irukanji jellyfish, the Mariana Trench, currents.  It does not convey the beauty or danger of it.  It tells you essentially nothing.

And it still tells you a greater proportion about the Pacific ocean than we could possibly know about yhwh.


I can't really follow your reasoning about this.God although infinite was able to "fit", if that's the issue, His very nature in a single human being...

But that was supposedly a miracle, was it not?

I think we learn about God through what He made.

If we are going to judge yhwh by what is said about him in the bible, then we need to drop all our presuppositions about him and judge the actions.  I think in an honest assessment yhwh does not come out looking very good.


You are limiting yourself where God has not.Just as there are 'physical laws' there are 'spiritual laws' as well.

begs the question.  We can test physical laws. How do we test "spiritual laws"?

Where you continue to believe 'knowing' is done exclusively in our brain The Word teaches us that is not the case.

until a peer reviewed paper is published verifying "the word", showing how knowing takes place some place other than the brain, this is just another unsubstantiated claim.

I mean it's Valentines Day.Even now we equate understanding how someone close to us feels or we let them know how we feel by the symbol of a heart.

"just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there." - Thom Yorke

You'd have to do some amazing stuff to get the reputation for being "omnipotent".

That depends on your audience.  You and I do things today that would make ancient hebrews consider us gods. Our metal charriots transport us faster than anything they would have seen.  Our medicine would appear miraculous to them.  Our weapons would make us unbeatable. 

You wouldn't even need technology to amaze them.  You'd only need to trick them. Show them some simple stage magic.  Saw a lady in half and put her back together?  They'd totally buy it.  We've had xians show up here, in the 21st century, showing us youtube videos of someone "growing" a leg 3" longer and then claiming it was a miracle.  Imagine how that would play to an audience circa 6th century BCE?

Remember, there were lots of other gods with reps too. Even the OT acknowledges them and their power.  Egyptian magicians did all the same miracles as Moses, only not to the same degree.



so because I do know Him a miracle must surely have happened.

Either that or you only think you know him.  Which is more probable?  (hint, the latter)


I think you are placing more value on His miracles that you should.I don't see , Scripturally anyhow, where miracles alone convinced everyone that Jesus was who He claimed to be.

So jesus H wasn't very convincing.  Why would the avatar of the omnipotent creator of the universe not be completely convincing?  It seems to me if god came to earth to deliver a message, he could have done a much better job. It strikes me that he wasn't trying very hard, he didn't really care, or he was not exactly as competent as his PR people would have us believe.

They accused Him of being "demonized'...

How do you know he wasn't? 


Enough?  What's enough when infinite more is concealed?

I'm not claiming that we can know what He knows ...

I didn't think that was your point and I was not arguing that point.

...my point is that we can know Him.

And I think I've shown six ways to Sunday why we can't.

...we are to pick up our cross and follow Jesus.He carried His to the place He was crucified on it.

but that is predicated on the PR of a being you actually know nothing about.

I think humanism would be more seductive : The end of all being is the happiness of man.

That's not Humanism. That sounds more like hedonism. Have you read the Humanist Manifesto?  And isn't that what xianity is really about at its core?  You want to get to heaven to be with yhwh because you think that will make you happy eternally.  One lifetime of happiness isn't enough for you.  No.  You greedy pigs have to have it eternally.



Irrelevant.  Even your crude understanding of science would make many of their eyes pop out of their sockets.  They are men in a context.  If they knew what you knew (or I knew) they may very well have not believed.

You realize scientists are still christians today?

My point wasn't science is a 100% successful antidote to religion.  I wish it were, but I never said that.  I said they likely will not believe all the rubbish you believe and they likely believe for different reasons.


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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #222 on: February 15, 2012, 11:23:19 AM »
I can't really follow your reasoning about this.God although infinite was able to "fit", if that's the issue, His very nature in a single human being...His Son.It was God making the move towards us.He makes it plain enough that He desires communion with us.
Oh the baseless claims.  Sorry, OS, but I was a Christian and prayed when I was losign my faith.  For a god that supposedly desires communion with us, why none at this time?  NO evidenec for this god, no evidence for JC, no evidence for any communion with any humans.   Plenty of humans claim to be touched by gods, are their claims just as valid as yours?   
Quote
We have all of His creation.We learn about ancient civilizations through the things they made , I think we learn about God through what He made.
  and again, OS, all theists claim this.  Please so show the evidence that your god did anything and not, oh, Tezcatlipoca.   Funny how you avoid answerign this despite the insistence that you are right. 

Quote
I think humanism would be more seductive : The end of all being is the happiness of man.
oooh and what a lovely bit of ignorance here and it appears to be the ignorant claim that humanism and atheism is nihilism.  Too bad that's wrong.
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #223 on: February 16, 2012, 04:55:08 PM »
Its very nature?  That it is salty?  Imagine traveling to some small town in say, Kansas, where they've never seen an ocean and given their state of education, probably not heard of it either.  And to explain to them the Pacific ocean you simply hand them the juice glass of salty water.  "There," you say, "is the ocean."  It conveys nothing of the size or depth.  It tells them nothing of sharks, whales, atolls, coral reefs, irukanji jellyfish, the Mariana Trench, currents.  It does not convey the beauty or danger of it.  It tells you essentially nothing.

 Of course not.In your scenario you could hand them anything and claim it to be the Pacific Ocean.As long as they didn't know what it was that you handed to them how could they know?


And it still tells you a greater proportion about the Pacific ocean than we could possibly know about yhwh.

Well, we're not in Kansas anymore.All the things you listed do tell me something about God , The more of them that are discovered the more awesome He seems. I believe that you find the Pacific beautiful because He made it that way and us able to appreciate it.no other creatures you mention think of it as beautiful do they? Or do you believe they might?



But that was supposedly a miracle, was it not?

 We would see it that way, sure.


If we are going to judge yhwh by what is said about him in the bible, then we need to drop all our presuppositions about him and judge the actions.  I think in an honest assessment yhwh does not come out looking very good.

What presuppositions do you mean? My assessment of Him from The Bible is that He is worthy of Worship.Honestly.

until a peer reviewed paper is published verifying "the word", showing how knowing takes place some place other than the brain, this is just another unsubstantiated claim.

But that doesn't make it untrue.Your love for your wife is unsubstantiated.No matter how many 'peer reviewed papers' about love there are- none of them prove you love your wife.the truest claim you may ever have made might be unsubstantiated.There is a guy on trial this week who people though 'loved ' his wife but now they believe he murdered her on their honeymoon.



"just 'cause you feel it, doesn't mean it's there." - Thom Yorke

Just because you dont feel it doesn't mean it's not there.

For we walk by faith [we regulate our lives and conduct ourselves by our conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, with trust and holy fervor; thus we walk] not by sight or appearance.--the Apostle Paul



When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #224 on: February 16, 2012, 05:23:18 PM »
"Just because you dont [sic] feel it doesn't mean it's not there."

Huh? So anything could exist, because you don't have to detect it's presence. Vulcans, werewolves, three-headed flying dogs, wizard boys named Harry Potter. Dragons. Chocolate cake with no calories. Compassionate conservatism.

If you have zero evidence of something, what makes you think it exists?  :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #225 on: February 17, 2012, 09:47:09 AM »
I think you are placing more value on His miracles that you should.I don't see , Scripturally anyhow, where miracles alone convinced everyone that Jesus was who He claimed to be.They accused Him of being "demonized' or they ignored them and did what "they wanted to do".Ending in His crucifixion. Rationalizing cuts both ways it seems.

to add onto what Add Homonym said, it seems like JC said exactly the opposite of what OS has tried to claim that too much value on miracles is being placed. 

Quote
John 10:37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
  It seems that JC is saying miracles are exactly what you should believe in and expect. 

it's of course amusing to watch OS ignore questions he can't answer and keep insisting that his god is the only one and that it exists, sans evidence.     Christians like him have to make ridiculous claims like the one NGFM noted, and then have to hide their heads in the sand so they don't have to acknowledge that their claims mean that all sorts of nonsense can then supposedly exist.
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #226 on: February 17, 2012, 11:04:20 AM »
Of course not.In your scenario you could hand them anything and claim it to be the Pacific Ocean.As long as they didn't know what it was that you handed to them how could they know?

try this:
 Of course not.In your scenario you could hand them anything and claim it to be god.As long as they didn't know what it was that you handed to them how could they know?

So it appears you understand my point.  You just will not or are unable to relate it to your god.


Well, we're not in Kansas anymore.All the things you listed do tell me something about God , The more of them that are discovered the more awesome He seems.

begs the question.  Even assuming there is a god, how do you know he actually did any of that stuff?  You weren't there when it happened and there are alternative explanations that have lots of evidence (more than a PR publication).  My point all along has been you cannot know your god and these things are another example of it.  You cannot know whether your god made the ocean.  Everything you think you "know" about your god is taken on blind faith.

no other creatures you mention think of it as beautiful do they? Or do you believe they might?

They might, but that is besides the point. If they do not have the ability to see subjective beauty, then it is because their brains have not evolved to do so.  That means we have a special ability.  That's nice for us.  But many animals have special abilities that we don't.   The Cheetah runs really fast.  Birds soar. The Clown Fish can change gender. The Argentine Lake Duck.   Everything has its specialty.  We have big brains.  Let's not make too much out of it.

But that was supposedly a miracle, was it not?

 We would see it that way, sure.

So that supports my argument.

What presuppositions do you mean? My assessment of Him from The Bible is that He is worthy of Worship.Honestly.

I believe you are being honest.  I think it is very difficult to recognize our cultural assumptions. We learn things through our culture - friends, family, even strangers.  And these ideas are transmitted subtly, often without even coming right out and saying them.  For example, showing women topless in movies warrants a PG-13 or maybe and R rating, but it is more or less considered acceptable.  What if a penis were to be exposed in a movie?  NC-17.  Ever question why?  Staying with movies, extreme violence and realistic violence are also deemed to be acceptable.  Saving Private Ryan got an R rating.  When I saw Starship Troopers - a film that depicted people being torn apart in gory detail - I saw a man bring a group of boys who could not have been 10 years old.  Yet, sex in films must be completely out of public view.  Every question why?  These are unspoken cultural assumptions.

There are similar assumptions about god.  That he exists.  That he is good. That he is just.  That he is love.  Almost nobody really learns about god from the bible, unless they are from a completely isolated culture.  If you could identify those assumptions and set them aside when you read the bible, its god looks very different than the god of your cultural folklore.  More like a monster.

Try reading the bible, only changing all the names.  Instead of "god", replace it with "Goremonger".  Instead of "the Lord", replace with "the Horned One".  It might help allow you to take a step back.

Quote
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Horned one appeared to him and said, “I am Goremonger Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

It is a simple quid pro quo agreement.  Nothing omnibenevolent about it.  Goremonger could be any powerful being from demon to god to captain of the Starship Enterprise.  You don't know what it is, really.

Quote
Then Gooremonger said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

If Goremonger asked you to slaughter your only son, would you? Hint: you should be horrified.

Quote
Then Moses said to Aaron, “Take your censer and put incense in it, along with burning coals from the altar, and hurry to the assembly to make atonement for them. Wrath has come out from the Horned One; the plague has started.”
Quote
At Horeb you aroused the Horned One's wrath so that he was angry enough to destroy you.
Quote
The Horned One will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Horned One will blot out their names from under heaven.

The Horned One is scary as shit. 

But that doesn't make it untrue.

Correct, but so what?  Do you go around believing everything that is not proven untrue?  Gosh, I hope not. Mermaids haven't been proven untrue.  Vampires have not been conclusively been shown to be strictly fiction.  Phlogiston was not technically shown to be untrue.  They just found a better theory.   

Your love for your wife is unsubstantiated.

Not true.  If you were observe us for a week you would find examples of actions that would demonstrate love.  Of course it does not rule out it being an act to hide nefarious plots.  But those plots would then have to be explained. The simple, probable conclusion would be that I love her.


Just because you dont feel it doesn't mean it's not there.

My reply was too oblique and crypitc.  It was a tangential point anyway.  Never mind.

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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #227 on: February 18, 2012, 06:33:10 PM »
try this:
 Of course not.In your scenario you could hand them anything and claim it to be god.As long as they didn't know what it was that you handed to them how could they know?

So it appears you understand my point.  You just will not or are unable to relate it to your god.


It just doesn't relate to my God. You want to provide a very minimal amount of material to use and understand what you are trying to convey and I believe He has provided an abundance of evidence in creation alone.


begs the question.  Even assuming there is a god, how do you know he actually did any of that stuff?  You weren't there when it happened and there are alternative explanations that have lots of evidence (more than a PR publication).

Wouldn't the same evidence be available to all positions in a scientific debate? It seems like a matter of interpretting the evidence at that point, and what it explains would be open to different viewpoints.If there are alternative explanations then you're saying they don't know what happened just what didn't happen.All in all I would think a large number of people who would look at the evidence would have excluded the "God" possibility before they even started.


  My point all along has been you cannot know your god and these things are another example of it.  You cannot know whether your god made the ocean.  Everything you think you "know" about your god is taken on blind faith.

You don't know Him by His creation , it points us to Him. Knowing Him requires one to be 'born again'.But the blind faith card just holds no water at this point.Once you "know" Him , it's a little too little and a little too late to say that you can't know.


They might, but that is besides the point. If they do not have the ability to see subjective beauty, then it is because their brains have not evolved to do so.  That means we have a special ability.  That's nice for us.  But many animals have special abilities that we don't.   The Cheetah runs really fast.  Birds soar. The Clown Fish can change gender. The Argentine Lake Duck.   Everything has its specialty.  We have big brains.  Let's not make too much out of it.

 Which all came from nothing that was the turned into everything.After something from the nothing became alive which we know nothing about then evolved into the amazing and beautiful things which we see all around us.To me that seems the classic case of 'blind faith'.



I believe you are being honest.  I think it is very difficult to recognize our cultural assumptions. We learn things through our culture - friends, family, even strangers.  And these ideas are transmitted subtly, often without even coming right out and saying them.  For example, showing women topless in movies warrants a PG-13 or maybe and R rating, but it is more or less considered acceptable.  What if a penis were to be exposed in a movie?  NC-17.  Ever question why?  Staying with movies, extreme violence and realistic violence are also deemed to be acceptable.  Saving Private Ryan got an R rating.  When I saw Starship Troopers - a film that depicted people being torn apart in gory detail - I saw a man bring a group of boys who could not have been 10 years old.  Yet, sex in films must be completely out of public view.  Every question why?  These are unspoken cultural assumptions.

There are similar assumptions about god.  That he exists.  That he is good. That he is just.  That he is love.  Almost nobody really learns about god from the bible, unless they are from a completely isolated culture.  If you could identify those assumptions and set them aside when you read the bible, its god looks very different than the god of your cultural folklore.  More like a monster.

Try reading the bible, only changing all the names.  Instead of "god", replace it with "Goremonger".  Instead of "the Lord", replace with "the Horned One".  It might help allow you to take a step back.

Quote
When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Horned one appeared to him and said, “I am Goremonger Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless. Then I will make my covenant between me and you and will greatly increase your numbers.”

It is a simple quid pro quo agreement.  Nothing omnibenevolent about it.  Goremonger could be any powerful being from demon to god to captain of the Starship Enterprise.  You don't know what it is, really.

But in fact, according to the Bible, is wasn't so simple.Abram 99 yrs of  age, Sarah 90. Pretty amazing, at least by modern standards.Further, when explained by the Apostle Paul it is even more awesome still:
Gal 3 :16
Now the promises (covenants, agreements) were decreed and made to Abraham and his Seed (his Offspring, his Heir). He [God] does not say, And to seeds (descendants, heirs), as if referring to many persons, but, And to your Seed (your Descendant, your Heir), obviously referring to one individual, Who is [none other than] Christ (the Messiah).

"Then Gooremonger said, “Take your son, your only son, whom you love—Isaac—and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering on a mountain I will show you.”

If Goremonger asked you to slaughter your only son, would you? Hint: you should be horrified.

 Did he have to go through with it or was it one of the most profound lessons in Scripture?Hint: it's the latter.

What lesson do I get?  God did complete the sacrifice.Knowing that it is a horrifying thing how much more appreciative I am that it was for me that it was done.Anyone is able to claim the same thing if they want.That is omnibenevolence.


Not true.  If you were observe us for a week you would find examples of actions that would demonstrate love.  Of course it does not rule out it being an act to hide nefarious plots.  But those plots would then have to be explained. The simple, probable conclusion would be that I love her.

Truth is though you are  the only one who actually knows.Some things are known that aren't able to be proven.There may not be any nefarious plot  but any number of other reasons.


When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #228 on: February 18, 2012, 09:24:21 PM »
It just doesn't relate to my God. You want to provide a very minimal amount of material to use and understand what you are trying to convey and I believe He has provided an abundance of evidence in creation alone.

GRAAAAAHHH! What is so difficult about this?  It is still infinitely less than infinity!  The ratio of the glass of water to the ocean is an infinitely larger ratio that the universe is to god!  The glass of water tells us infinitely more about the ocean than the universe tells us about god, even though it is practically nothing.

And if the universe points to a god, it should make us ask, why doesn't this god want us to get off this planet?

You don't know Him by His creation , it points us to Him. Knowing Him requires one to be 'born again'.But the blind faith card just holds no water at this point.Once you "know" Him , it's a little too little and a little too late to say that you can't know.

You don't know.  You don't even "know".  You keep confusing knowledge with emotions.

Which all came from nothing that was the turned into everything.After something from the nothing became alive which we know nothing about then evolved into the amazing and beautiful things which we see all around us.To me that seems the classic case of 'blind faith'.

Dude, wtf tangent are you off on now?  You asked if animals could recognize beauty.  I said, essentially, who cares.  Recognition of beauty is irrelevant.  Please don't make this into your horrible, twisted misunderstanding of science.  I really don't have the energy for that.


But in fact, according to the Bible, is wasn't so simple.Abram 99 yrs of  age, Sarah 90. Pretty amazing, at least by modern standards.

Yeah.  You might even say it is unbelievable. 

And it is totally irrelevant to the point. Did you even read what I wrote or did you just take my mention of bible verses to be an opportunity to regurgitate your already well known interpretations?  Sorry to be rude, but cripes man, you aren't answering anything.  It's one dodge after another.

Further, when explained by the Apostle Paul

His interpretations of the OT are the rantings of a crazy person.

Did he have to go through with it or was it one of the most profound lessons in Scripture?Hint: it's the latter.

IRRELEVANT!!  Are you reading my posts?!  Answer the question!  If a god named Goremonger, who had offered you a quid pro quo contract demanded you murder your only son and burn his body as an offering to him, would you do it? 

This OT story only warms your heart because you know the ending.  You put yourself in Abe's shoes not knowing the ending.  You ask yourself, what kind of god would test me this way?


Truth is though you are  the only one who actually knows.Some things are known that aren't able to be proven.There may not be any nefarious plot  but any number of other reasons.

You are not even listening. 

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #229 on: February 18, 2012, 10:18:17 PM »
You ask yourself, what kind of god would test me this way?

I know the answer to this one.

If God simply knew what was in our hearts, then he wouldn't have to test anyone. But what kind of story would that make? Pretty dull, huh?

We could have a better story, where God commanded Abraham to do something selfless, like go into an enemy camp on a suicide mission. But what kind of story is that? Soldiers do that all the time, because it achieves something.

It's a far more effective story mechanism to have God showing up in front of someone and telling them to do something completely irrational, and then changing his mind.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #230 on: February 19, 2012, 03:30:45 PM »

GRAAAAAHHH! What is so difficult about this?  It is still infinitely less than infinity!  The ratio of the glass of water to the ocean is an infinitely larger ratio that the universe is to god!  The glass of water tells us infinitely more about the ocean than the universe tells us about god, even though it is practically nothing.

 Exactly! What is so difficult about this? God , who is infinite ( maybe I'm not understanding that term correctly) or is Who He is, has determined to make Himself known to us.He created us to be "in His image" so we in some way or another understand that we share like characteristics with Him.In your analogy there isn't anyone trying to help the people in Kansas to understand the Pacific.They are on their own.
 Then we have Jesus who tells us that by 'seeing' Him we actually are seeing God.He says if we watch what He does we know what God does.If we listen to what He says we know what God says.

Maybe you have a need for it to be more complicated than it is .


And if the universe points to a god, it should make us ask, why doesn't this god want us to get off this planet?

 I believe He does. It's pretty plain that this planet isn't our home.



You don't know.  You don't even "know".  You keep confusing knowledge with emotions.

My knowledge has an effect on my emotions but I know they are two distinct things.


Dude, wtf tangent are you off on now?  You asked if animals could recognize beauty.  I said, essentially, who cares.  Recognition of beauty is irrelevant.  Please don't make this into your horrible, twisted misunderstanding of science.  I really don't have the energy for that.

 You seemed to be going into the " we all evolved into what we are"  thing.


Yeah.  You might even say it is unbelievable.

 It was designed to be .That's why Isaac was 'the child of promise".Born by faith .
 



Further, when explained by the Apostle Paul

His interpretations of the OT are the rantings of a crazy person.

W've heard that before:

24)And as he thus proceeded with his defense, Festus called out loudly, Paul, you are mad! Your great learning is driving you insane!


IRRELEVANT!!  Are you reading my posts?!  Answer the question!  If a god named Goremonger, who had offered you a quid pro quo contract demanded you murder your only son and burn his body as an offering to him, would you do it? 

This OT story only warms your heart because you know the ending.  You put yourself in Abe's shoes not knowing the ending.

So, would I be able to do it? I don't think I would.He asked Abraham to after Abraham and Sarah had Isaac through a miracle.

By faith  Abraham did know the ending, though.We are told here:

Gen 22
Abraham said, My son, God Himself will provide a lamb for the burnt offering. So the two went on together.



  You ask yourself, what kind of god would test me this way

A God who would know I could pass the test.A God who would know that afterward I also would know I could pass the test.Our faith is designed to grow, that would require exercising it.

 



When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #231 on: February 20, 2012, 02:27:53 AM »
Since he already knew that god would provide the lamb for the offering then it wasn't a test. Much ado for nothing. So, Abraham was basically like Bruce Willis in the 6th Sense. So God the Writer and producer and Abraham the actor for the intended audience Isaac. Talk about trauma. God, what a sick fuck.