He chose to not only make Himself known to us but became one of us.
This is a statement of faith. How does a statement of faith address my point that your faith is blind? It is a non sequitur.
From my experience in life both of those observations have been made by people throughout time who were caught off guard. I've personally had my " chair faith" shattered by a 'rocker'.
Yeah, well, that's kind of one of the points I've been trying to make about faith. It does not equate to knowledge or change reality. Sometimes chairs break and spouses cheat. Dems da berries. The point was if you are going to have faith, it should be based on something
. And if faith that is based on evidence can be wrong sometimes, then what does that say about blind faith?
It comes back to the four most important words – how do you know?
But He most certainly has:
No, he most certainly has not. I am talking personally. If god had earned my faith I would still be faithful. And whatever verse you quoted is, as far as I am concerned, mythology, no better or worse than the myths of the Greeks or Hindus. It is another statement of faith that does not address my point.
I don't see what this has to do with my point at all. You seem to have taken my mention of the Enlightenment as an opportunity to go off on some weird and wrong headed tangent. You say a lot of wrong things in your tangent, but I’m not going to address them. They are beside the point.
We are able to pay $ 117000 per second...
totally irrelevant. We are all entitled to our peeves and rants. But let's please keep this on topic.
Yes, that was Jesus speaking to Thomas.I read it as Him telling Thomas that he had believed because he physically saw Him…
That is to say, he had evidence and good reason to believe.
…and that those of us who believed without having that experience….
That is to say, those who had blind faith.
…would be blessed for it.
Extra blessed beyond those who have seen and believe.
You don't believe anything that you can't physically see?
It depends on the evidence, doesn't it? Jesus isn’t saying “be skeptical, scrutinize the evidence.” He’s saying, “believe I rose from the dead without seeing it for yourself. Take it on faith that this story is true.” None
of the apostles believed it without seeing. And even they had faith lapses. So how on earth are the rest of us expected to have any
faith at all? Or, why don’t those who do work miracles like the apostles? Their faith must far exceed the apostles’.
My faith is based on an understanding that what I believe is only a model of how things work, not reality itself. I cannot see electrons, but I tentatively believe they exist insofar as they serve as a model for how reality functions.
I am willing to change my mind if presented with a better model. Your faith is not the same as my faith. Yours is blind and stubborn. Yours says “never change your mind!”
I don't find Jesus saying to " turn off our brain".
Not in so many words, but that is
the overarching point of faith.
Once you have Faith it needs no justifying." Faith is the evidence and ....the substance.
Faith is the substance? What the fuck is that even supposed to mean? Faith is the evidence? No, it isn’t. Faith is not evidence. Please stop repeating idiotic things you’ve heard in church. It has no place in an intelligent conversation.
So, your wife if faithful because "you tested her".
No, you have it wrong. I said I have faith in her because I observed her. I cannot speak for her, but I can say I am faithful to her because I love her and I would not want to do something that would hurt her feelings. She has earned my loyalty.
Was it because of the beatings you gave her or because you stopped...for a while anyway?
No. The beatings are to keep my pimp hand strong.
I know the Living God.
No you don’t. That is just delusions of grandeur. No one loves a name dropper.
And that doesn’t answer the point. You are trying to base your life on the moral and technological understandings of a people who live 2000 (2500 if you count the jooz) years ago. We’ve improved since then. Why would you want to regress at all, let alone so far?
I'm curious what you mean by "smart people" though.You will of course include yourself in the group.
Am I one of the people who contributed to advances in ethics over the last 1000 years? Don’t be a dingus.
Would you consider you beliefs to be a product of what is espoused there?
Yes and no. Yes, everything I experience contributes in some way to what I believe. No, that site did not make me an atheist, but it did give me some new insight.
Touching story and one I'm sure some rationalists could read a lot into.As far as my born again experience not being true, well, you might not see it yourself but you seem to be slipping back into " Nosferatu-ville' again.You are imagining that you understand something that you are completely unable to comprehend.I'll take it that you meant well , though.
What is it that I am completely unable to comprehend?
Our spirits themselves.
What spirits? Define them. Establish that they exist. I said you put the cart before the horse and you continue to do so.
Spiritually , we are dead until we are born again.
Then by The Holy Spirit we become alive.We are able to understand spiritual truth at that point.
See above. You continue to use imaginary beings to explain imaginary phenomena that are used to establish imaginary beings. You are going in circles.
13)And we are setting these truths…
See above. What holy spirit? More mythology. Or, cult indoctrination. Probably more of the latter. They are telling you you are special and I am a humbug and not to listen to me. Naturally. That is how they keep you in your intellectual black hole.
Why is it that 'No" is one of the first words they learn to use?
Probably because that is the word they hear most often once they become motile.
A frightened toddler will immediately run to an adult they trust to get picked up, for instance. You believe they weigh the evidence and make a rational decision? I think they trust those they can sense love them.
No argument there. What has that to do with my point about blind faith?
And we have learned to trust God.
Blindly. Or, show how it is based on something.
… we have Jesus and you don't. Not by means of Him being withheld but that you prefer other things is all.
This sounds a lot like typical xian gloating. “nyeah, nyeah, you’re going to he-ell! I’m going to hea-ven!” Correct me if I’m wrong.
I did not lose my xianity because I preferred otherwise. Because of what I knew about the world, I could not believe any more. If god wants me to believe, he’s going to have to show me. He showed Thomas. Why not show Screwtape? Oh wait... do not test the lord. Shit. I guess I'm screwed.
Actually it's not.This is more what it is:
For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
That's another statement faith that puts the cart before the horse. Seriously, this conversation is totally mired now. It's as if you cannot even speak English.
No con shows his cards by saying " trust me implicitly without question".That's what I meant.
Ah, I see. Thanks.
He doesn't come as a serpent now but an angel.An angel of light.You can't be getting conned because you think you're too smart, too clever.So it goes time and again even from the distant past in the Garden.
The Debil? Please. There is no debil. That was a construction of the early church and grew out of the fact that so many early xians had no idea of jewish tradition, including what the Pentateuch meant. Satan was not a single angel. It was more like an office or a position, like a prosecutor. And all indications point to the satan reporting to yhwh.
It was also rooted in Zoroastrian tradition whereby they believed in two gods, one good, one evil. They opposed one another and were constantly fighting. Remember the Persians, who freed the jooz from Babylonian exile? Zoroastrians. Yeah. They had a little influence one the jooz. The jooz talked about how awesome their emperor, Xerxes, was.
The greeks also had a role to play. Hell, aka Hades, was named after the greek god, Hades.
Xianity is a clusterfuck of Greek, Hebrew and Persian mythology. Sprinkle in some pagan European rituals and voila, the worst thing to happen to people until Mohammed.
You seem to put you "critical faith " in that which has no idea where 'what is' even came from…
Where did god come from? Pot --> kettle. And maybe you missed the whole “tentatively” part. You also appear to have missed the part where it does not affect my daily life. I do the opposite of you. I make no claims regarding the origins of the universe. I put faith in the questions that can be answered. Not the ones that cannot or do not matter.
…how life supposedly came from "no life'
1. we’re working on it and making some progress. I mean, gimme a break. We’ve only had science for a hundred and fifty years or so.
2. you are essentially saying we have to know absolutely everything, know the answer to every question in order to have credibility with you. Yet your holy book does nothing to help people in their daily lives. It could have explained germ theory, but it doesn’t. It could have showed people how to use fertilizer and rotate crops, but it didn’t. It doesn’t really answer any questions at all.
why morality exists from 'no morality'
We actually do know that one. You reject the explanation, but only because of your blind faith.
But we should all rest assured that we are going to find everything out one of these days.
Probably not. I never said that. Please don't put words in my mouth.
You can't see that you are the delusional one in this con game. What you are staking on this bet is priceless, in the truest sense of that expression.
1. It does not seem to me so much that I am delusional as you haven’t the vaguest idea what you are talking about when discussing science.
2. Pascal’s wager? Please.
Unless you can answer my points with something other than bible quotes or statements of faith, I think we’re done.
Peace out, Napoleon.