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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #174 on: February 04, 2012, 08:29:19 AM »
Quote
We can understand Him through what He created.

What is this actually supposed to mean? Our view of what He supposedly created changes as we learn more. He created something rather big, old, multidimensional, inefficient, pointless, etc... but Creationists won't look at that; they look at their Bible instead. If they looked at what he created, they'd see terrible injustice. But, noooooo! There's no injustice! It's must all be fair (somehow), because they believe it must be, rather than looking at what actually is.

Summary: Creationists refuse to look at what he actually created.


Most importantly, how do you know?  For your own benefit you should ask that.  How do you know you are not being duped?  Who is really benefitting from your blind faith?


Well, I guess he knows, the same way Mormons, Muslims, and Scientologists know they are not being duped. When you join a religion, you get Certificate 1 which says that your doctrine is ALL true; everyone else's is false, and more importantly: Certificate 2, which says that you are too smart to be duped.

Just remember, God created the sun on day 4, and we'll all get out of here before lunch.
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #175 on: February 04, 2012, 07:12:14 PM »


Faith has come to be one of the most damning pieces of evidence against god for me.  That can mean against god's existence or it can mean against an actual god.  First of all, this is asking for blind faith.  I know, most xians say it isn't, but they are wrong.  The bible demands belief without evidence.  It is not talking about fidelity or trust in this case.  It does that too, in other places.  But it exhorts people to believe without seeing.  Why?  How does that make any sense?  Why would the omnipotent creator of the universe make the the criterion for reward?

I don't think it is blind, Screwtape.We may blind ourself to it.We are just too self-absorbed to see it.Virtually every testimony I've heard ( mine included) regarding  being born-again is pretty much the same and John Newton said it best for me:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
 That saved a wretch like me.
 I once was lost but now am found,
 Was blind, but now I see.

 the overwhelming evidence was there all along.



  It created semi-rational, thinking people and then demand we not use our brains and rationality. 

Even though they are magnificent ' machines' they aren't suited for the job by itself, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.



The only other case in real life where blind faith like that is begged or demanded is in a con.  It is the con-man who says "trust me implicitly without question," and usually the most dangerous sort of con-man.

No, parenthood makes that demand at times.Do you have children? They don't always get an explanation as to why they could or could not do some things. I think you will find that in the military.Lots of orders don't come with explanations accompanying them.

As far as your con man, well, I've known 1 or 2 and they would never show their cards that way..."without question?"I don't think so.




Blind faith is not a virtue, it is a serious and dangerous character flaw.  Yet it is the corner stone of modern religion. 

But who actually is operating by blind faith? Do you believe that "Nothing" created " Everything" from nothing?


When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #176 on: February 05, 2012, 01:04:36 AM »
I don't think it is blind, Screwtape.

Predictably.  But that is the only kind of faith anyone can have in a god who lives outside the universe[1] and will not be tested. 

I have lots of faith.  However, our faiths are not equal.  All of my faith is founded on something.  My faith in my wife is from years of being with her and learning - observing or testing her, if you will - that she will not hurt me or betray me on purpose.  My faith that the chair I sit in will continue to hold me up is based on it having done so in the past.  I have observed it.  You can go on down the list of everything that has my faith.  All those things have earned it.   

Gods, on the other hand, have not.  Faith in a god you have never seen, who has never spoken to you - and I mean spoken to you at least as unambiguously as I now talk to you - with whom you have had no real interaction, is blind.  It cannot be anything but. 

As a person of the 21st century in the "modern" west, you know that you must have solid reasons - evidence - for beliefs.  This is a gift to you from the Enlightenment. The church, which began before the Enlightenment was a twinkle in anyone's eye, says the opposite.  "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."  That is from John.  He's telling you to turn off your brain.  What else could that be, but blind faith?  "Just believe what they we telling you. It will make you extra special."  So you indulge in the duplicitous act of having faith and then seeking to justify it with reason and evidence.  It is a confusing exercise, but one that the compartmentalizing ability of the brain is good at.  You probably don't even notice how you have tricked yourself. Do you?

You should ask yourself why you are hanging on to philosophy and ideology that is over 2000 years old. Surely smart people have come up with something better in the mean time.  You are part of a cult of personality where the person has perished so long ago his very existence is doubted.  That should be a problem for you.  read this  It is not an atheist site, per se, nor does it deal with religion, per se.  But it does deal with rationality.

We may blind ourself to it.

All that is, Stew, is you trying to elevate emotions and emotional experiences to the same level as knowledge.  So you were moved.  Big fucking deal. It means nothing other than you were moved.  Once upon a time I lived in a loft apartment that had a creepy stairway.  I dreamed Nosferatu was coming up the stairs.  For the 2 or 3 more months I lived there the hair on the back of my neck would prickle up and I would feel as if I were being watched every time I passed the stairs.  It felt like Nosferatu was about to reach out and kill me.  Did that mean anything more than my imagination was getting the best of me?  No. And neither does your born again experience.  It is a hard truth, but a truth none the less.


Even though they are magnificent ' machines' they aren't suited for the job by itself, spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

That puts the cart before the horse.  That begs the question.  What spiritual things?  What organs are our spiritual sensory organs?  How does that work?  You seem to be making up imaginary senses to rationalize imaginary people.   

No, parenthood makes that demand at times.Do you have children? They don't always get an explanation as to why they could or could not do some things. I think you will find that in the military.Lots of orders don't come with explanations accompanying them.

None of those examples are cases of blind faith. 
Children have evolved to uncritically obey.  And by time they are developed enough to decide to trust, you should already have laid down a pattern of giving good advice or demands. 
For the military, you don't trust a command blindly.  You trust it because you trust your commander, the chain of command, the military structure, rightly or wrongly.

If you want a way out of blind faith, you would have to acknowledge that your faith is really in the people who taught you about god and jesus.  But then it becomes a boot-strap-levitation scenario, since their faith is based on the people who taught them, etc.

As far as your con man, well, I've known 1 or 2 and they would never show their cards that way..."without question?"I don't think so.

I have not idea what you are trying to say.  Show their cards in what way?  Con men try to get you to trust them.  "con" stands for "confidence".  They want your confidence so they can get your money.  Benny Hinn is a prime example.  He also happens to be a charlatan of the religious type. 


But who actually is operating by blind faith? Do you believe that "Nothing" created " Everything" from nothing?

As opposed to a sky wizard who did it by speaking magic words?  And where did he come from?  If you tell me he was just always there, then why couldn't the universe just always have been there? 

The difference - faithwise -  between what I may believe and what you believe is I do not regard it as the absolute truth.  My faith in whatever current explanation from science is tenuous.  My loyalty to it lasts as long as the data supports it and not a better explanation.  My faith is not demanded by scientists.  I am free to test them by requesting data and checking for myself.  It goes back to what I said about wanting to believe what is true and having the best model of reality possible.  Faith gets in the way of changing my mind.  Which is probably why the religious want you to have it.  If you look at religion as a mind virus, it explains a lot.[2]

This point you bring up also goes back to my claim that xians don't really believe what they say they believe.  Your faith in god extends only to the things that have no real impact on your life.  You do that because to have faith in other things would be life threatening.  Observe:
Quote
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.


That's from mark 16.  I bet you don't do any of that.  And I bet you also have some excuse about how jesus H didn't mean everyone, only the apostles or something.  But I think you don't do that because you know handling poisonous snakes would probably kill you, you know drinking poison would kill you, you know laying on hands would eventually result in someone dying from an otherwise curable illness.  When I say you know those things, I don't mean in the same way you "know" jesus is returning.  I mean you really know it.  So you anticipate an atheistic universe in the case of these things because you know events will play out in a deterministic way.  There will be no spirits to save you.

You can say you believe jesus H created the universe because it is an inert claim.  It affects your daily life not at all.  It does not put you in the way of any kind of harm.  It is an easy claim to have faith in.  You can say "when I die I get to live in Candyland" or some such, because it is an inert claim.  All it does is reinforce you belief in believing. 

The same for all the imaginary friends and their heralds and your imaginary senses.  You know they don't do anything so your faith in them only applies to inert situations.   You never say "dear jesus, I need $50 for groceries" because you know jesus doesn't loan money.  You never say "dear jesus, please heal my herpies" because you know jesus doesn't cure anyone.  You make it more abstract: "dear jesus, help me fulfill your will" (how can god's will not be done?)  "dear jesus, give me strength" (as if you'd know whether it happened or not)  or the completely vague "dear jesus, bless us"  that way, anything good that happens in your life gets attributed to jesus, whether he did it or not.


 1. whatever that means
 2. kcrady talks about it in these posts:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,1424.msg30018.html#msg30018
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20736.msg459083.html#msg459083
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forum/index.php?topic=3381.msg48544#msg48544
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #177 on: February 05, 2012, 01:41:37 AM »

But who actually is operating by blind faith? Do you believe that "Nothing" created " Everything" from nothing?

No. We are pretty sure that Brahma or Vishnu created the universe. Or, was it Allah, Ra, Ahura Mazda, and Quetzalcoatl? I think they all worked as a team, but excluded the Christian god, because he wanted to create the sun on day 4.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #178 on: February 05, 2012, 01:56:44 AM »
No. We are pretty sure that Brahma or Vishnu created the universe. Or, was it Allah, Ra, Ahura Mazda, and Quetzalcoatl? I think they all worked as a team, but excluded the Christian god, because he wanted to create the sun on day 4.

I think those were just the planners. It took a whole host of Heavenly Entitiestm to create the universe once all the zoning and licensing were in place. Just look at the earth's coast lines, you can tell the difference in workman ship. Slartibartfast was no doubt thee best of the best when it came to crafting fjords he won an award for Norway.
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #179 on: February 05, 2012, 12:54:14 PM »
But who actually is operating by blind faith? Do you believe that "Nothing" created " Everything" from nothing?
Is that your best shot?

Seriously, you think that an invisible being living in another dimension, who required no maker himself, created something out of nothing and then made men out of mud? And that is a perfect explanation of the universe we can observe?

You believe that?

Which is more likely - that or the answer, "We are not sure but we are aware of vacuum energyWiki and the origins will probably be explained by serious people who know how to do math."

You know that history has shown that when we humans have a problem or don't understand something, we try and find how it works. Back in the day, disease could be put down to God and insanity to demons sent by Satan. You don't believe that do you? But why not? It is what God said.

God said he made the earth. Read this again and see if you think that is an explanation of why the Universe is here.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #180 on: February 06, 2012, 12:16:31 AM »
He'd rather someone make stuff up and pass it off as absolute truth than to accept, "We don't know [yet], but we're learning."

Then claim that the scientists that don't know, yet trying to learn, claim to know everything.

As one of my coworkers said, "They think they know."
Me: I take it, you know?
CW: No, but God does.
Me: And?
CW: And, what?
Me: The answer is?
CW: Oh, God doesn't work like that.

As I said in my analysis of God's monologue to Job, what's the point of him claiming to know something and not to tell? I see, as long as someone claims to know everything, everything is ok, regardless on whether it actually changes your life in any way, is of coures irrelevent. That's what I like about science. If you want to learn you can without having to go to some magic man. You can read reports of tests and replicate those tests yourself. As we discover more, it actually enhances our life. I'd take, "I don't know, but I'm learning," over, "I know everything," any day.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #181 on: February 06, 2012, 10:25:08 AM »
I don't think it is blind, Screwtape.We may blind ourself to it.We are just too self-absorbed to see it.Virtually every testimony I've heard ( mine included) regarding  being born-again is pretty much the same and John Newton said it best for me:

Amazing Grace, how sweet the sound,
 That saved a wretch like me.
 I once was lost but now am found,
 Was blind, but now I see.

 the overwhelming evidence was there all along.
  Yep, and that's waht all theists say.  You all claim that your particular god is found in the universe, but can't show it any more than any other theist.  Your god is just as imaginary are theirs are.  As I've offered before, OS, please do join me at a couple of altars and we can see just which god is real.  Your god had no problem showing itself before per your storybook. 

Quote
No, parenthood makes that demand at times.Do you have children? They don't always get an explanation as to why they could or could not do some things. I think you will find that in the military.Lots of orders don't come with explanations accompanying them.
Yes, children may not get an explanation, and soldiers may not get an explanation.  Is this the best way to treat people?  OS, I'd like you to postulate when it's better to shout at people and say "just because I'm powerful."   You have your god acting like a stupid DI or a lazy and ignorant parent.  That's pretty good since every thing else shows that your god is just about that when its supposed actions are depicted in the bible.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #182 on: February 06, 2012, 12:39:18 PM »
children and soldiers... now we're getting to the problem.

Soldiers can do the things they do ONLY because they dont think. It has its benefits on the warfield, but doesnt necessarily make it right eg hey, drop that atomic bomb on Hiroshima. If the dropper THOUGHT, "hey, I may be personally responsible for thousands upon thousands of deaths immediately and hundreds of thousands if not millions down the line by this act" they may not have dropped it.

Children are hardwired to be obedient probably because it may have been essential for survival at one point. "DONT PLAY NEXT TO THAT LION CUB!!" doesnt get an immediate why. However, when in safety it demands a reason, that way you dont always have to yell it, they can avoid it based upon knowledge. Also "because I said so" stopped being a valid response for me EARLY in my development. Thats why kids always ask you "why." I have already laid it down for my daughter that if I cant give her a valid reason for something to disregard what I said, because its non-sense. And that goes for anyone else as well. Note I havent told her what to think, but rather to think. She already at the age of 9 is starting to see through the church's bullshit.

She started to say grace before a meal at a restaurant (something she learned from granny). I asked her who she would thank. She said god, and I asked her why. I asked if he cooked the meal, I asked if he was paying for the meal. She replied no and no. Then I asked her who she should thank then. She replied with the cooks and me.

Children and soldiers... the exact examples that hurt the case. Your god wants you to be as children even though youre adults. We atheists want you to be adults. Your 'god' wants you to give him 1/10th of your money, we atheists dont want a dime from you. Your god wants you to not think and have blind faith, we atheists dont want you to believe a word we say if you dont want to, but look up the ACTUAL info for yourselves...

Who would you trust?

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #183 on: February 06, 2012, 06:42:45 PM »

Predictably.  But that is the only kind of faith anyone can have in a god who lives outside the universe[1] and will not be tested. 
 1. whatever that means

He chose to not only make Himself known to us but became one of us.



I have lots of faith.  However, our faiths are not equal.  All of my faith is founded on something.  My faith in my wife is from years of being with her and learning - observing or testing her, if you will - that she will not hurt me or betray me on purpose.  My faith that the chair I sit in will continue to hold me up is based on it having done so in the past.  I have observed it.  You can go on down the list of everything that has my faith.  All those things have earned it.

 From my experience in life both of those observations have been made by people throughout time who were caught off guard. I've personally had my " chair faith" shattered by a 'rocker'.Fortunately my tailbone wasn't.I also know more than one person who lamented " I never saw it coming! I never thought he or she would do that." Those are the types of things that have earned your faith?



Gods, on the other hand, have not.  Faith in a god you have never seen, who has never spoken to you - and I mean spoken to you at least as unambiguously as I now talk to you - with whom you have had no real interaction, is blind.  It cannot be anything but. 

But He most certainly has:

1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.






As a person of the 21st century in the "modern" west, you know that you must have solid reasons - evidence - for beliefs.  This is a gift to you from the Enlightenment.

From Encyclopaedia Britannica:

The powers and uses of reason had first been explored by the philosophers of ancient Greece, who discerned in the ordered regularity of nature the workings of an intelligent mind.( So far so good....)

The 'enlightenment'...

Central to Enlightenment thought were the use and the celebration of reason, the power by which man understands the universe and improves his own condition. The goals of rational man were considered to be knowledge, freedom, and happiness.

Humanism. Our problem is spiritual and unable to be improved by natural means.Obviously when "the end of all being" is human happiness or more appropriately , human selfishness, the results are obvious...We are able to pay $ 117000 per second on the Super Bowl commercials while huge portions of humanity are starving.God, I believe, gave charge of the earth to man and that's one small example of what we do with it.If " the enlightenment" was to bring us to a place where reason was to improve "the human condition' it gets an Epic Fail.It can keep the gift.




 The church, which began before the Enlightenment was a twinkle in anyone's eye, says the opposite.  "Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."  That is from John.  He's telling you to turn off your brain.  What else could that be, but blind faith?  "Just believe what they we telling you. It will make you extra special."

 Yes, that was Jesus speaking to Thomas.I read it as Him telling Thomas that he had believed because he physically saw Him and that those of us who believed without having that experience would be blessed for it. You don't believe anything that you can't physically see?I don't find Jesus saying to " turn off our brain".



  So you indulge in the duplicitous act of having faith and then seeking to justify it with reason and evidence.

Once you have Faith it needs no justifying." Faith is the evidence and ....the substance.



  It is a confusing exercise, but one that the compartmentalizing ability of the brain is good at.  You probably don't even notice how you have tricked yourself. Do you?

So, your wife if faithful because "you tested her".Was it because of the beatings you gave her or because you stopped...for a while anyway?




You should ask yourself why you are hanging on to philosophy and ideology that is over 2000 years old. Surely smart people have come up with something better in the mean time.  You are part of a cult of personality where the person has perished so long ago his very existence is doubted.

I know the Living God.It goes back way further than 2000 years.

I'm curious what you mean by "smart people" though.You will of course include yourself in the group.


  That should be a problem for you.  read this  It is not an atheist site, per se, nor does it deal with religion, per se.  But it does deal with rationality.

Would you consider you beliefs to be a product of what is espoused there?


All that is, Stew, is you trying to elevate emotions and emotional experiences to the same level as knowledge.  So you were moved.  Big fucking deal. It means nothing other than you were moved.  Once upon a time I lived in a loft apartment that had a creepy stairway.  I dreamed Nosferatu was coming up the stairs.  For the 2 or 3 more months I lived there the hair on the back of my neck would prickle up and I would feel as if I were being watched every time I passed the stairs.  It felt like Nosferatu was about to reach out and kill me.  Did that mean anything more than my imagination was getting the best of me?  No. And neither does your born again experience.  It is a hard truth, but a truth none the less.


Touching story and one I'm sure some rationalists could read a lot into.As far as my born again experience not being true, well, you might not see it yourself but you seem to be slipping back into " Nosferatu-ville' again.You are imagining that you understand something that you are completely unable to comprehend.I'll take it that you meant well , though.



That puts the cart before the horse.  That begs the question.  What spiritual things?  What organs are our spiritual sensory organs?  How does that work?  You seem to be making up imaginary senses to rationalize imaginary people.

Our spirits themselves.Spiritually , we are dead until we are born again.Then by The Holy Spirit we become alive.We are able to understand spiritual truth at that point.


   13)And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the [Holy] Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language [to those who possess the Holy Spirit].

    14)But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.
 


None of those examples are cases of blind faith. 
Children have evolved to uncritically obey.

Why is it that 'No" is one of the first words they learn to use?


 And by time they are developed enough to decide to trust, you should already have laid down a pattern of giving good advice or demands.

A frightened toddler will immediately run to an adult they trust to get picked up, for instance. You believe they weigh the evidence and make a rational decision? I think they trust those they can sense love them.


For the military, you don't trust a command blindly.  You trust it because you trust your commander, the chain of command, the military structure, rightly or wrongly.

And we have learned to trust God.How do we know to trust Him, through His Son who is the image of The Father. It's incredibly simple, you nailed it actually,  we have Jesus and you don't. Not by means of Him being withheld but that you prefer other things is all.

If you want a way out of blind faith, you would have to acknowledge that your faith is really in the people who taught you about god and jesus.  But then it becomes a boot-strap-levitation scenario, since their faith is based on the people who taught them, etc.
Actually it's not.This is more what it is:

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.



I have not idea what you are trying to say.  Show their cards in what way?  Con men try to get you to trust them.  "con" stands for "confidence".  They want your confidence so they can get your money.  Benny Hinn is a prime example.  He also happens to be a charlatan of the religious type.

You characterized a con man like this--

"The only other case in real life where blind faith like that is begged or demanded is in a con.  It is the con-man who says "trust me implicitly without question," and usually the most dangerous sort of con-man. "

No con shows his cards by saying " trust me implicitly without question".That's what I meant.

   For example, at this juncture in your life you are the victim of the most heinous of all cons.

When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it.He doesn't come as a serpent now but an angel.An angel of light.You can't be getting conned because you think you're too smart, too clever.So it goes time and again even from the distant past in the Garden.

You seem to put you "critical faith " in that which has no idea where 'what is' even came from , how life supposedly came from "no life' , why morality exists from 'no morality' and a bunch of other " We don't know how, we don't know when, we sure the heck don't know why.and on and on it goes.
But we should all rest assured that we are going to find everything out one of these days.You can't see that you are the delusional one in this con game.What you are staking on this bet is priceless, in the truest sense of that expression.



 


When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #184 on: February 07, 2012, 10:16:20 AM »
... and God created the sun on day 4.

You do lot of pseudo-intellectual preaching, followed up by a threat. No evidence given any point. Repeat of bullshit argument involving existence and morality. Impervious to the experiences of Muslims.

The reason why we reject Christianity is not because we "prefer" something else, but:

1) Poor evidence for your religion against others, considering the claims and promises; Competing religions, such as Islam are just as credible in terms of user-experience and conversion
2) Christianity is based, dishonestly, on Sadduceean Judaism, where Yahweh and Elohim created the sun on day 4, and then had a fictitious flood.
3) The dishonesty of its advocates.
4) The illogic of God bringing a saviour to a bunch of Roman-Jews, 4000 years too late
5) The illogic of God then sending Mohammed and Joseph Smith to revise his plans
6) The illogic of God creating a hell around 100BC; not revealing it through Moses at the outset
7) The dishonesty of hell apologists, needing to invent extra-theology, not explained by Jesus
8 ) The illogic of Paul needing to restate the religion and dump Judaism, after Jesus told us that many false prophets would come in his name
9) Contradiction between the gospels;
10) No real evidence that Jesus existed, besides a few books that THE CHURCH tells us to believe, and validates it decree using with circular logic
11) The illogic of God testing everyone using satan, science and evolution

Yes, what we'd "prefer", is a Christian religion where:

(1) Jesus was documented by other historians.
(2) Jesus' theology didn't change from book to book.
(3) A world where praying to Jesus grew limbs back.
(4) A savior theology that made sense.
(5) A God who didn't test people who didn't need to be tested.
(6) A creation story where the sun was made on day 1.

Frankly, the only thing you have going for you, is that you haven't been kicked off the forum.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #185 on: February 07, 2012, 10:22:31 AM »
He chose to not only make Himself known to us but became one of us.
and Mohammed rode to Jerusalem in one night on a magic horse.  It's as supported by evidence as your claims, OS.  Tsk.
Quote
1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe.
Funny how those prophets needed people long after their deaths to decide on what they really meant and how to cherry pick their supposed “prophecies”.  Also, since Christians can’t agree on what JC means in what he supposed said, we have how many sects now, OS?  Some sure that all people will be saved, some sure that homosexuals are perfectly fine with god, some sure that hell is fully of cartoon red devils and fire and that’s where anyone who disagrees with them will end up, etc etc. 
Quote
Humanism. Our problem is spiritual and unable to be improved by natural means.Obviously when "the end of all being" is human happiness or more appropriately , human selfishness, the results are obvious...We are able to pay $ 117000 per second on the Super Bowl commercials while huge portions of humanity are starving.God, I believe, gave charge of the earth to man and that's one small example of what we do with it.If " the enlightenment" was to bring us to a place where reason was to improve "the human condition' it gets an Epic Fail.It can keep the gift.
Pooor poor god, he can’t do a thing without a human hand.  Please do tell us, OS, what’s stopping God from helping those people, if he exists and is good (and per your bible, I understand good just as well as your god does).  And funny how your bible disagrees with you about your claim that God gave charge of the earth to man and responsibility for everything happening on it.  That makes any Christian claim of miracles to be garbage now.  Again, a Christian seems to forget how his claims contradict each other when trying to make excuses for his god.   
Quote
Yes, that was Jesus speaking to Thomas.I read it as Him telling Thomas that he had believed because he physically saw Him and that those of us who believed without having that experience would be blessed for it. You don't believe anything that you can't physically see?I don't find Jesus saying to " turn off our brain".
and JC never says that asking for evidence is wrong. Thomas was saved right? And destined for heaven/the new Jerusalem?  It’s only “better” to believe from faith.  So, where is my evidence, OS? Am I not as important as Thomas, a lost sheep that God wants back in the fold?


Quote
But we should all rest assured that we are going to find everything out one of these days.You can't see that you are the delusional one in this con game.What you are staking on this bet is priceless, in the truest sense of that expression.
poor bubby, can't have a Christian without a threat.  Poor OS, it's been how long now, wiating for your imaginary friend to hurt those who dare to disagree with you?   How many more thousand years, OS? 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 10:24:19 AM by velkyn »
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #186 on: February 07, 2012, 11:15:58 AM »
He chose to not only make Himself known to us but became one of us.

This is a statement of faith.  How does a statement of faith address my point that your faith is blind?  It is a non sequitur. 

From my experience in life both of those observations have been made by people throughout time who were caught off guard. I've personally had my " chair faith" shattered by a 'rocker'. 

Yeah, well, that's kind of one of the points I've been trying to make about faith.  It does not equate to knowledge or change reality.  Sometimes chairs break and spouses cheat.  Dems da berries.  The point was if you are going to have faith, it should be based on something.  And if faith that is based on evidence can be wrong sometimes, then what does that say about blind faith?

It comes back to the four most important words – how do you know?

But He most certainly has:

No, he most certainly has not.  I am talking personally.  If god had earned my faith I would still be faithful.  And whatever verse you quoted is, as far as I am concerned, mythology, no better or worse than the myths of the Greeks or Hindus. It is another statement of faith that does not address my point.


Humanism.

I don't see what this has to do with my point at all.  You seem to have taken my mention of the Enlightenment as an opportunity to go off on some weird and wrong headed tangent.  You say a lot of wrong things in your tangent, but I’m not going to address them. They are beside the point.

We are able to pay $ 117000 per second...

totally irrelevant. We are all entitled to our peeves and rants. But let's please keep this on topic.

 
Yes, that was Jesus speaking to Thomas.I read it as Him telling Thomas that he had believed because he physically saw Him…

That is to say, he had evidence and good reason to believe.

…and that those of us who believed without having that experience….

That is to say, those who had blind faith.

…would be blessed for it.

Extra blessed beyond those who have seen and believe.

You don't believe anything that you can't physically see?

It depends on the evidence, doesn't it? Jesus isn’t saying “be skeptical, scrutinize the evidence.”  He’s saying, “believe I rose from the dead without seeing it for yourself. Take it on faith that this story is true.”  None of the apostles believed it without seeing. And even they had faith lapses.  So how on earth are the rest of us expected to have any faith at all?  Or, why don’t those who do work miracles like the apostles?  Their faith must far exceed the apostles’.

My faith is based on an understanding that what I believe is only a model of how things work, not reality itself. I cannot see electrons, but I tentatively believe they exist insofar as they serve as a model for how reality functions.  I am willing to change my mind if presented with a better model. Your faith is not the same as my faith.  Yours is blind and stubborn.  Yours says “never change your mind!” 

I don't find Jesus saying to " turn off our brain".

Not in so many words, but that is the overarching point of faith.


Once you have Faith it needs no justifying." Faith is the evidence and ....the substance.

Faith is the substance?  What the fuck is that even supposed to mean?  Faith is the evidence?  No, it isn’t. Faith is not evidence.  Please stop repeating idiotic things you’ve heard in church.  It has no place in an intelligent conversation.

So, your wife if faithful because "you tested her".

No, you have it wrong.  I said I have faith in her because I observed her.  I cannot speak for her, but I can say I am faithful to her because I love her and I would not want to do something that would hurt her feelings. She has earned my loyalty.

Was it because of the beatings you gave her or because you stopped...for a while anyway?

No.  The beatings are to keep my pimp hand strong.


I know the Living God.

No you don’t. That is just delusions of grandeur. No one loves a name dropper. 

And that doesn’t answer the point.  You are trying to base your life on the moral and technological understandings of a people who live 2000 (2500 if you count the jooz) years ago.  We’ve improved since then. Why would you want to regress at all, let alone so far?

I'm curious what you mean by "smart people" though.You will of course include yourself in the group.

Am I one of the people who contributed to advances in ethics over the last 1000 years?  Don’t be a dingus.


Would you consider you beliefs to be a product of what is espoused there?

Yes and no. Yes, everything I experience contributes in some way to what I believe.  No, that site did not make me an atheist, but it did give me some new insight. 

Touching story and one I'm sure some rationalists could read a lot into.As far as my born again experience not being true, well, you might not see it yourself but you seem to be slipping back into " Nosferatu-ville' again.You are imagining that you understand something that you are completely unable to comprehend.I'll take it that you meant well , though.

What is it that I am completely unable to comprehend?

Our spirits themselves.

What spirits? Define them.  Establish that they exist. I said you put the cart before the horse and you continue to do so.

Spiritually , we are dead until we are born again.

See above.

Then by The Holy Spirit we become alive.We are able to understand spiritual truth at that point.

See above. You continue to use imaginary beings to explain imaginary phenomena that are used to establish imaginary beings. You are going in circles.

   13)And we are setting these truths…

See above.  What holy spirit?  More mythology.  Or, cult indoctrination.  Probably more of the latter. They are telling you you are special and I am a humbug and not to listen to me. Naturally.  That is how they keep you in your intellectual black hole.


Why is it that 'No" is one of the first words they learn to use?

Probably because that is the word they hear most often once they become motile.

A frightened toddler will immediately run to an adult they trust to get picked up, for instance. You believe they weigh the evidence and make a rational decision? I think they trust those they can sense love them.

No argument there. What has that to do with my point about blind faith?

And we have learned to trust God.

Blindly. Or, show how it is based on something.

… we have Jesus and you don't. Not by means of Him being withheld but that you prefer other things is all.

This sounds a lot like typical xian gloating.  “nyeah, nyeah, you’re going to he-ell! I’m going to hea-ven!”  Correct me if I’m wrong.

I did not lose my xianity because I preferred otherwise. Because of what I knew about the world, I could not believe any more.  If god wants me to believe, he’s going to have to show me.  He showed Thomas.  Why not show Screwtape?  Oh wait... do not test the lord.  Shit. I guess I'm screwed.

Actually it's not.This is more what it is:

For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

That's another statement faith that puts the cart before the horse.  Seriously, this conversation is totally mired now. It's as if you cannot even speak English.

No con shows his cards by saying " trust me implicitly without question".That's what I meant.

Ah, I see.  Thanks.

He doesn't come as a serpent now but an angel.An angel of light.You can't be getting conned because you think you're too smart, too clever.So it goes time and again even from the distant past in the Garden.

The Debil?  Please.  There is no debil. That was a construction of the early church and grew out of the fact that so many early xians had no idea of jewish tradition, including what the Pentateuch meant.  Satan was not a single angel.  It was more like an office or a position, like a prosecutor.  And all indications point to the satan reporting to yhwh.

It was also rooted in Zoroastrian tradition whereby they believed in two gods, one good, one evil.  They opposed one another and were constantly fighting.  Remember the Persians, who freed the jooz from Babylonian exile?  Zoroastrians.  Yeah.  They had a little influence one the jooz.  The jooz talked about how awesome their emperor, Xerxes, was.

The greeks also had a role to play.  Hell, aka Hades, was named after the greek god, Hades.

Xianity is a clusterfuck of Greek, Hebrew  and Persian mythology.  Sprinkle in some pagan European rituals and voila, the worst thing to happen to people until Mohammed.

You seem to put you "critical faith " in that which has no idea where 'what is' even came from…

Where did god come from?  Pot --> kettle.  And maybe you missed the whole “tentatively” part.  You also appear to have missed the part where it does not affect my daily life.  I do the opposite of you.  I make no claims regarding the origins of the universe.  I put faith in the questions that can be answered.  Not the ones that cannot or do not matter.

…how life supposedly came from "no life'

1. we’re working on it and making some progress.  I mean, gimme a break.  We’ve only had science for a hundred and fifty years or so.
2. you are essentially saying we have to know absolutely everything, know the answer to every question in order to have credibility with you.  Yet your holy book does nothing to help people in their daily lives.  It could have explained germ theory, but it doesn’t.  It could have showed people how to use fertilizer and rotate crops, but it didn’t.  It doesn’t really answer any questions at all.

why morality exists from 'no morality'

We actually do know that one. You reject the explanation, but only because of your blind faith.

 
But we should all rest assured that we are going to find everything out one of these days.

Probably not. I never said that.  Please don't put words in my mouth.

You can't see that you are the delusional one in this con game.  What you are staking on this bet is priceless, in the truest sense of that expression.

1. It does not seem to me so much that I am delusional as you haven’t the vaguest idea what you are talking about when discussing science.
2. Pascal’s wager?  Please.


Unless you can answer my points with something other than bible quotes or statements of faith, I think we’re done.

Peace out, Napoleon.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #187 on: February 07, 2012, 04:15:43 PM »
I see you forgot Egyptian mythology too. Hail Horus, the Son of God that has risen from the Dead! Praise'd be the hidden Creator and let the name Amen be glorified! Praise Amen, the name of the Lord!

OS, Screwtape doesn't believe in vampires, in fact he knows they are imaginary. He didn't glean something unfathomable to him and retreat into the safer world. He was basically telling you, the mind plays tricks on you. Was that an admission that you, OS, believe in vampires?

Playing X-Com, when you're equipping your soldiers listening to the spooky music then hunting the aliens. You may get goosebumps and your hair may stand on end, but it's just a game and what you "experience" isn't real, but it felt real... woo.

OS, when you're a witness in Court, the evidence that you bring can only be first hand. You saw this. You head him/her say that. How admissable is this in court: I heard my best friend's uncle's coworker's sister's maid's dad say that s/he said, "that." ?

I guess OS has forgotten the stigma that someone known as, "Doubting Thomas" has for not believing what he was told, on virtue that he was told. Then trying to twist it to say some nonesense about being "more blessed" for believing despite having not seen. It's like some Catholic booklet I read when I was younger. You are "blessed" if you get married, but "more blessed" if you have a service. What are you going to do? Have the service of course! As my non-Catholic youth minister once said, "You're Lucky for being born at this time, so you can be "more blessed" than Jesus's apostles, especially more than that, that Doubting Thomas!"

I always wondered how the whole "blessed" and "more blessed" thing was supposed to work, anyways. You just have to die first to find out. Funny, that. I also find it funny how the whole thing about this, "You can ask God when you meet him," or, "we'll find out after we die." When you can just crack upen the buybull and read the first 2 chapters to know beyoond a shadow of doubt, God won't tell you ****. He only wants mindless automatons that only do what they're told. He made the only tree with knowledge forbidden after all.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 04:18:19 PM by TruthSeeker »

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #188 on: February 07, 2012, 07:20:54 PM »
This is a statement of faith.  How does a statement of faith address my point that your faith is blind?  It is a non sequitur. 

 In that I know who my faith is in it isn't blind.



Yeah, well, that's kind of one of the points I've been trying to make about faith.  It does not equate to knowledge or change reality.

Hebrews  the 11th chapter lays out for us how much reality was effected by faith.


 Sometimes chairs break and spouses cheat.  Dems da berries.  The point was if you are going to have faith, it should be based on something.  And if faith that is based on evidence can be wrong sometimes, then what does that say about blind faith?

 But the faith you described was actually faith in yourself.Your own ability to evaluate what to believe in.Personally, I believe that Jesus was resurrected from the dead.I've never heard of a person being near death or on their death bed saying how much they regretted their faith in Christ.I have personally heard the opposite scenario take place.


It comes back to the four most important words – how do you know?
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.   Ro. 8:16


No, he most certainly has not.  I am talking personally.  If god had earned my faith I would still be faithful.  And whatever verse you quoted is, as far as I am concerned, mythology, no better or worse than the myths of the Greeks or Hindus. It is another statement of faith that does not address my point.

Sure enough, as long as you feel God owes you a living...other than the one you have already, then The Bible will continue to just be 'black ink on white paper'.That's all it was to me for years.



totally irrelevant. We are all entitled to our peeves and rants. But let's please keep this on topic.

It is relevent to me in this way....It typifies mankind as it is and has been throughout history.

Selfish and self -centered.


 That is to say, he had evidence and good reason to believe.

That is to say, those who had blind faith.


Had faith in the myriad of things that we observe as pointing to a Creator. Much like the first wave of people who explored "reason" and seemed to come to the same conclusion.



Extra blessed beyond those who have seen and believe.

Blessings are His to give.We should be able to tell Him what to do ?


It depends on the evidence, doesn't it? Jesus isn’t saying “be skeptical, scrutinize the evidence.”  He’s saying, “believe I rose from the dead without seeing it for yourself. Take it on faith that this story is true.”  None of the apostles believed it without seeing. And even they had faith lapses.  So how on earth are the rest of us expected to have any faith at all?

It is first based on the testimony of those with the experience.Then it becomes our own personal experience when we believe.Faith is also able to grow and become even stronger.


 Or, why don’t those who do work miracles like the apostles?  Their faith must far exceed the apostles’.

I read about them quite a bit.Healing as well.Do you think they would be any more effective now in convincing you then they were when Christ did them?The same ones who saw His miracles also cried " crucify Him!".



My faith is based on an understanding that what I believe is only a model of how things work, not reality itself. I cannot see electrons, but I tentatively believe they exist insofar as they serve as a model for how reality functions.  I am willing to change my mind if presented with a better model. Your faith is not the same as my faith.  Yours is blind and stubborn.  Yours says “never change your mind!” 

No, our faiths aren't the same.Mine has been authenticated by The One I have faith in.Why would I trade down?You have faith in your wife.You love her. Do you still shop around in case there may be an even better wife out there.I don't I am settled in my choice and was when I made it.Some decisions we make are able to be final in my experience.


I have only this much time today.I will address more tomorrow if you'd like.I usually am only able to be here while at work.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #189 on: February 07, 2012, 07:23:22 PM »
... and God created the sun on day 4.


 Are you saying there can't be light without the sun?
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #190 on: February 07, 2012, 07:51:39 PM »
Come on, Screwtape.  He has faith that his faith isn't blind.  And he probably also has faith that the faith that his faith isn't blind, isn't blind.

It's an infinite regression of faith.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #191 on: February 07, 2012, 08:01:15 PM »
... and God created the sun on day 4.


 Are you saying there can't be light without the sun?
Um. Not on this planet. Which one are you from again?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #192 on: February 08, 2012, 09:50:14 AM »
In that I know who my faith is in it isn't blind.

1. No you don't.  I already explained why you know nothing about god several posts ago.
2. Even if you did, your faith is blind in every other way possible.

Yeah, well, that's kind of one of the points I've been trying to make about faith.  It does not equate to knowledge or change reality.

Hebrews  the 11th chapter lays out for us how much reality was effected by faith.

When I said faith does not change reality I meant, if your wife is banging your best friend, your faith in her will not alter that reality.  It will not erase all the past times they did It.  Faith in American Airlines will not keep your plane aloft if the wing falls off.  Faith - that is what people truly believe - can affect reality, but in different ways.  Look at the people who followed Charles Manson or Jim Jones.  Reality was affected. People will do things because of it.  Sometimes those things will be kind and altruistic.  Other times, they will be cruel and barbaric.

But the faith you described was actually faith in yourself.Your own ability to evaluate what to believe in.

That's one way of looking at it.  But then that boils all faith anyone has in anything down to faith in their ability to evaluate reality and know the truth of it.  And if that is the case, then the people with the best methodology of knowing what is true have the best faith.  I would say that means scientists. 

I've never heard of a person being near death or on their death bed saying how much they regretted their faith in Christ.I have personally heard the opposite scenario take place.

So what?  What is that supposed to prove?  Belief in an afterlife makes people who are about to stop living feel better about their situation.  That's how it works.  It does not mean they have any special knowledge of reality.


It comes back to the four most important words – how do you know?
The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.   Ro. 8:16

That is a statement of faith.  Faith is not a basis for knowledge.  We've been over this.


No, he most certainly has not.  I am talking personally.  If god had earned my faith I would still be faithful.  And whatever verse you quoted is, as far as I am concerned, mythology, no better or worse than the myths of the Greeks or Hindus. It is another statement of faith that does not address my point.

Sure enough, as long as you feel God owes you a living...other than the one you have already, then The Bible will continue to just be 'black ink on white paper'.That's all it was to me for years.

What are you talking about?  I don't see how that relates to my post.


It is relevent to me in this way....It typifies mankind as it is and has been throughout history.

Selfish and self -centered.

Totally irrelevant to the discussion of whether one can know god or the discussion of faith.

Had faith in the myriad of things that we observe as pointing to a Creator.  Much like the first wave of people who explored "reason" and seemed to come to the same conclusion.

Are you kidding me?  You are relating Doubting Thomas - the guy who stuck his fingers in the nail and spear holes - to the opaque and vague "things that point to a creator"?  You are suggesting the most primitive of thinkers who had the first inklings of reason had it right?  That is completely regressive.  Next you'll want to reduce the periodic table to just the four elements.  Good plan.

Blessings are His to give.We should be able to tell Him what to do ?

That is a non sequitur. It is as if you aren't following the conversation and just responding to my posts one sentence at a time, out of context.  I wrote that as a response to something you had said about your faith not being blind.  Are you now agreeing that god does want blind faith and adding that if he blesses people for it, that is his prerogative?

It is first based on the testimony of those with the experience.Then it becomes our own personal experience when we believe.Faith is also able to grow and become even stronger.

So you are confirming my point.  We can only take someone else's word for it. Your faith is based on the say so of someone else, someone you have never met, who died about 2000 years ago, who knew less than a fourth grader about how the world works.  On top of that, most scholars don't even think those testimonials were first hand. 

That, my friend, is blind faith.

I read about them quite a bit.Healing as well.Do you think they would be any more effective now in convincing you then they were when Christ did them?The same ones who saw His miracles also cried " crucify Him!".

Yes, I do.  I think that if xians opened clinics where they would routinely perform unambiguous, miraculous healing for any ailment, that it would be effective in establishing that the things jesus H said in the bible were true.  That would include regrowing lost limbs.

No, our faiths aren't the same.Mine has been authenticated by The One I have faith in.

In what way?  I want you to really think about it.  Before you post it, replace "god" and "jesus" with "brahman" and "Krishna".  Then, ask yourself if you would find that to be a convincing argument. 

Why would I trade down?You have faith in your wife.You love her. Do you still shop around in case there may be an even better wife out there.I don't I am settled in my choice and was when I made it.Some decisions we make are able to be final in my experience.

If my wife did something to undermine my trust, yes, I would question my faith in her.  It goes back to wanting to believe what is true.  I do not want to have faith in someone who is dealing dirty, just like I do not want to believe a theory that is inaccurate.  It is not a crime to doubt or to question your faith.  I think it is a healthy and good policy.   

You are saying faith should not just be blind, but absolute.  What you have is not faith.  What you have is certitude and a stubborn refusal to consider changing your mind.  I do not think you know what faith is.  I have brought up many things that I would hope would make you question your faith. Only you know whether you have or not.




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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #193 on: February 08, 2012, 01:21:41 PM »
[size=310pt]... and God created the sun on day 4.[/size]


 Are you saying there can't be light without the sun?
your bible says that there can be in its ignorance.  OS, let me refresh your memory.

Quote
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
  supposed days later  we get what *we* know as light sources, the sun and stars, but again the bible screws up with claiming that the moon is a "light"  which is wrong, it's a reflector. 
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14 And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #194 on: February 08, 2012, 04:22:46 PM »
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3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

Disregarding the magical force field too. You see, OS with a spherical Earth, only 1/2 of it gets light from the sun at a time[1], but those that wrote the Bible wrote what thier All-Knowing God told them. The Earth is flat, and like a plate, if you shine a light at it, the entire plate gets lit up. But if you go to the top of a hill over looking some plains, in the morning the light chases away the darkenss, and at night, the darkness chases the light. How does this happen since the Earth is flat according to the Bible? There's a magical barrier to separate the darkness from the light! Cosmology that only works if you in your blind faith in a flat Earth and believe the Bible in spite all evidence that shows the Bible is wrong.

Take something the apparent size and brightness of the sun and put it behind a building. Doesn't light up the sky does it? Neither does the moon. Proof according to the bible that neither the sun or moon are necessary for light. Even though at night the moon is fairly bright, during the day, it's difficult to see isn't it? What if the sun was that dim? Would be hard to tell what time it was wouldn't it? That's what the sun is for! It's sole purpose is so that you would know that it was morning, noon, or evening! It's a referee, or governor, of the day. See!? v16 says that it's a govenor, not a provider or even necessary. You see, according to the Bible, life on Earth existed (day 3 remember?) and could exist without the sun. God provided it, just so you could know what time it was. How nice of him, eh?

I bet you're going to ignore this post like you've done so many times of mine in this thread.
 1. known as 'Line of Sight'

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #195 on: February 09, 2012, 02:27:52 PM »


Quote
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
  supposed days later  we get what *we* know as light sources, the sun and stars, but again the bible screws up with claiming that the moon is a "light"  which is wrong, it's a reflector. 

Seems like those scientists over at NASA must only have a Bronze Age understanding of things related to space because I just read this from their official site:

                                  Spaceships, Meteors, and Moonlight

The article begins:

August 9, 2011: Bright moonlight streams through your window. A nugget of space debris disintegrates in a sparkling fireball. A huge spaceship glides silently overhead.
 
  By itself, any one of these events might be enough to get you out of bed. This weekend, all three are going to happen at the same time.

Really- can you even imagine it?!! Inferring that the moon gives off light!!
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #196 on: February 09, 2012, 02:44:44 PM »
Seems like those scientists over at NASA must only have a Bronze Age understanding of things related to space because I just read this from their official site:
                                  Spaceships, Meteors, and Moonlight
The article begins:
August 9, 2011: Bright moonlight streams through your window. A nugget of space debris disintegrates in a sparkling fireball. A huge spaceship glides silently overhead. 
  By itself, any one of these events might be enough to get you out of bed. This weekend, all three are going to happen at the same time.
Really- can you even imagine it?!! Inferring that the moon gives off light!!
    Oh my OS, you’ve got me.  Not. :D  This is hilarious.  Sorry dear but NASA scientists and journalists knows what moonlight means:  Moonlight is the light that reaches Earth from the Moon. This light does not originate from the Moon, but from sunlight. The Moon does not, however, reflect sunlight like a mirror, but it reflects light from those portions of its surface which the Sun's light strikes.[1] See diffuse reflection.    This is from the wiki article moonlightWiki

The site you got this from is here: http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2011/09aug_perseids2011/   How long did it take you to find the word “moonlight” on a scientific site, OS, in your desperation?  Do you know that they know that moonlight isn’t from the moon?  Yes, they do!  There is nothing in this that says your bible knew this at all.  Now, OS, show me that the ignorant authors of the bible knew that the moon wasn’t a source of light.  That’s what your argument rests on, to show that bible authors are as well informed as NASA scientists.   Your ignorant bible claims that the moon is the same as the sun, a light "source" and it fails.  It also claimed that the stars could fall to hit the earth.  Wrong. 

No one at NASA has “inferred” that the moon is a light source like your bible has directly claimed and claimed wrongly.  This old book that supposed your god had a hand in, couldn’t even get that right even with supposedly divine editing.  Your god didn’t even bother to correct that little mistake his people made.  You are such joke, OS.  I guess it’s good that your god doesn’t exist because if you are the best representative it has, it would die of embarrassment.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2012, 02:46:48 PM by velkyn »
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #197 on: February 09, 2012, 04:22:58 PM »


Quote
3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
  supposed days later  we get what *we* know as light sources, the sun and stars, but again the bible screws up with claiming that the moon is a "light"  which is wrong, it's a reflector. 

Seems like those scientists over at NASA must only have a Bronze Age understanding of things related to space because I just read this from their official site:

                                  Spaceships, Meteors, and Moonlight

The article begins:

August 9, 2011: Bright moonlight streams through your window. A nugget of space debris disintegrates in a sparkling fireball. A huge spaceship glides silently overhead.
 
  By itself, any one of these events might be enough to get you out of bed. This weekend, all three are going to happen at the same time.

Really- can you even imagine it?!! Inferring that the moon gives off light!!

First of all, you meant "implying", not "inferring".

Secondly, I happen to work for NASA.  (The article you're quoting from is hosted on a server located about thirty or forty feet from my desk.)  If I were to print out Velkyn's post and your reply to it, then show it to any of the scientists here -- especially those in the Planetary Science Division, but in pretty much any other department as well -- they'd probably die laughing.  Talking about "moonlight" is simply a leftover from centuries, if not millennia, of linguistic custom.  It no more means that one thinks the moon gives off its own light than talking about "sunrise" means that you think the sun actually rises from below the horizon.  (Besides, saying "sunlight reflected by the moon" would be a pain in the neck, anyway.)
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #198 on: February 09, 2012, 06:01:34 PM »
First of all, you meant "implying", not "inferring".

Secondly, I happen to work for NASA.  (The article you're quoting from is hosted on a server located about thirty or forty feet from my desk.)  If I were to print out Velkyn's post and your reply to it, then show it to any of the scientists here -- especially those in the Planetary Science Division, but in pretty much any other department as well -- they'd probably die laughing.  Talking about "moonlight" is simply a leftover from centuries, if not millennia, of linguistic custom.  It no more means that one thinks the moon gives off its own light than talking about "sunrise" means that you think the sun actually rises from below the horizon.  (Besides, saying "sunlight reflected by the moon" would be a pain in the neck, anyway.)

I could not pay attention to anything else after that part I bolded. May I touch your avatar? :-*
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #199 on: February 10, 2012, 09:32:13 AM »
I'll have to agree, it's teh awesome when PD says he works for NASA.   :)  It was so perfect when OS tried to be impressive and PD was there to take him down.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #200 on: February 10, 2012, 10:33:44 AM »
I could not pay attention to anything else after that part I bolded. May I touch your avatar? :-*

I don't know.  Have you performed the appropriate purification rituals?   ;D

I'll have to agree, it's teh awesome when PD says he works for NASA.   :)  It was so perfect when OS tried to be impressive and PD was there to take him down.

*grin*

The actual work I do, to be honest, isn't especially interesting, at least not compared to the really cool guys.  (I'm the Apple Engineer for the headquarters building).  But I just love saying that I work here.  If I had ever screwed a Playboy centerfold or owned a Lamborghini, I probably wouldn't ever be able to shut up about that, either. 
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #201 on: February 10, 2012, 10:49:09 AM »
*grin*

The actual work I do, to be honest, isn't especially interesting, at least not compared to the really cool guys.  (I'm the Apple Engineer for the headquarters building).  But I just love saying that I work here.  If I had ever screwed a Playboy centerfold or owned a Lamborghini, I probably wouldn't ever be able to shut up about that, either.
I sure don't blame you.  I'm still nattering about my intership at NASM, and that was over 20 years ago, becuase it was so cool!
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #202 on: February 10, 2012, 07:36:33 PM »

Talking about "moonlight" is simply a leftover from centuries, if not millennia, of linguistic custom.  It no more means that one thinks the moon gives off its own light than talking about "sunrise" means that you think the sun actually rises from below the horizon.  (Besides, saying "sunlight reflected by the moon" would be a pain in the neck, anyway.)

 Thank you. You expressed the point I was making perfectly.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford