Author Topic: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible  (Read 9395 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #145 on: January 27, 2012, 05:12:35 PM »
I read on another website a little ditty that I thought was incredibly insightful about the New Testament.  You've probably all heard/seen it before, but I haven't.  It goes something like this; the Jews look at the New Testament the way Christians look at the book of Mormon.  I thought that was pretty cool and thought provoking.
And Xtians look at the book of Mormon like atheists look at Harry Potter.  ;)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #146 on: January 27, 2012, 06:40:07 PM »
I read on another website a little ditty that I thought was incredibly insightful about the New Testament.  You've probably all heard/seen it before, but I haven't.  It goes something like this; the Jews look at the New Testament the way Christians look at the book of Mormon.  I thought that was pretty cool and thought provoking.

Or the same way Christians view the Qu'ran. The Holy Qu'ran even says so!

It actually goes further than that, if I recall correctly... doesn't Yahweh tell Job that there's no way that Job could ever understand why he went thru what he went thru?  And that's a lie, isn't it?  It's actually quite easy to understand why all of that happened to Job -- that is, apparently, the reason that the book was written.

I think you're correct. Outside of the specifics of the flat Earth stuff, most of the rest just got rolled up into, "Man, what a pompous ass." I could talk about where Mr. Lightning is supposed to live, where the sun sleeps that YHWH must wake daily, and the edges of the Earth, but the subjective nature of the rest was filed into my brain with a general paraphrasing.

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #147 on: January 27, 2012, 07:08:02 PM »

That is like saying, I lost my keys, but there is no point in looking for them since looking in all the places where they aren't would be a waste of time.  If you want to find them, you have to spend the time.

I on the other hand have my keys.When you go looking for something you have already found well, to me , that's a waste of time.

I'd be happy to help you find your keys, though.


Meaning that He is to be coming in the clouds. I should not expect to have to go find  Him .Doozy of a light show as well.


But you could be wrong.  The jews were, after all.

But their Scriptures were right.I don't want to make the same mistake they did.


I just take it to mean there's gonna be one incredible light show.



But it could mean any number of things. It could mean jesus H will appear quickly.  Or it could mean he will have thunder around him.  Or it could mean a zillion other things neither you nor I thought of.

7)Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth shall gaze upon Him and beat their breasts and mourn and lament over Him. Even so [must it be]. Amen (so be it).

I'm thinking I'm going to know about it.



You make a really stupid point.  You point to a teeny tiny handful of jews, (out of the ~13 million jews in the world right now), and completely evade the point.  Let me try again, in terms you may understand.

Once upon a time a man named jesus supposedly lived.  He is was alleged to be the hebrew messiah. But almost all the jews living at that time rejected him because they thought he did not meet the requirements.  His PR reps said he did meet the requirements, but that the jews just did not expect them to be met in that way.

 Which is what their Scriptures predicted they would do.So at that "once upon a time" period all of the Jews ( who would make up the first Church almost in it's entirety) who believed Jesus was indeed The Messiah, then realized it was in The Scriptures all along.That seems to be how Jews are converted 'til this day.


Therefore, it is possible when jesus H comes again, it will not be in the way you expect.

Can't say I have  an exact 'way" in mind, just that whatever way it is I'm confident that I will know.



And yet, you don't.

And of course you have no way of knowing.




 So what conclusion am I to draw? 

That you can't seem to stop making stuff up?



You don't know it.  In fact, I say you don't even believe it.  You pay lip service to it, at best.  You are a poser.  You like the superior feeling of self righteousness.  You like thinking you are special.  And who doesn't?  I sure like being special.  The difference is, I actually am special.

 Agreed.You are special.


You like thinking you are special.

  You need to borrow someone else's fantasy to feel that way.

The term for Christians is "peculiar" actually.It refers to reality though.

  1 Peter 2:9

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;
 



Panic mode?  What should I be panicked about?  Hell?  Right.  I'm as panicked about that as I am that Santa will leave coal in my stocking.  Oh noes!  Look out everybody!  We have to love a man who may never have existed or a man no one has ever seen will send you to a place no one can possibly even know exists!

Yeah.  I'm in panic mode alright.

 You don't have to.

 You act as if Christians should be running around all concerned about Christ's return.I mean I look forward to it if I'm still alive but other things of God  have my attention.




onesteward= Hello....I'm a Born-Again Christian.I've already found Him. 


You've not found him. You've found a group of people, probably none of whom are actually named jesus, who espouse silly, yet comforting ideas and sing sappy songs.

How amazingly naive.Let me guess...you think all the Christians in the world are just like the ones in 'upstate NY' ? Like a Christian version of Santa's Village?



 
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #148 on: January 27, 2012, 07:13:42 PM »
"Like a Christian version of Santa's Village?"

What is a non-Christian version of Santa's Village? I thought that Santa was supposed to be Christian..... :?

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #149 on: January 27, 2012, 07:16:27 PM »
I on the other hand have my keys.When you go looking for something you have already found well, to me , that's a waste of time.

You have Jesus, here, in the flesh, on Earth?  Really?  Wow!  Can you point him out to me?
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Offline jtp56

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #150 on: January 27, 2012, 07:37:59 PM »
I thought of this while commenting in another topic about "signs of Christians who haven't read their Bible" and I thought that, wouldn't it be fun if we just posted comments that people have made to us or others about how we know they haven't read their Bible based on something that they have said, or even the way they practice being a Christian?

I bring up the fact that many of them who join this website shouldn't be conversing with us in the first place, it says so in their Bible yet they either ignore that (if they read it) or it's obvious they've never read it.  They are only supposed to be converting their own kind.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
Quote
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:14 (NLV)
Quote
Do not be joined together with those who do not belong to Christ. How can that which is good get along with that which is bad? How can light be in the same place with darkness?

My favorite rewrite of that verse:

2 Corinthians 6:14 (The Message)
Quote
Don't become partners with those who reject God. How can you make a partnership out of right and wrong? That's not partnership; that's war. Is light best friends with dark? Does Christ go strolling with the Devil? Do trust and mistrust hold hands? Who would think of setting up pagan idols in God's holy Temple? But that is exactly what we are, each of us a temple in whom God lives. God himself put it this way:

   "I'll live in them, move into them;
      I'll be their God and they'll be my people.
   So leave the corruption and compromise;
      leave it for good," says God.
   "Don't link up with those who will pollute you.
      I want you all for myself.
   I'll be a Father to you;
      you'll be sons and daughters to me."
   The Word of the Master, God.

I love The Message -- really, if anyone hasn't read that version, please do, it's the most interesting version I've read of the Bible.

-So, what do you got?

-Nam

It always amazes me how people who don't believe the Bible are experts on how Christians should behave, or who they should associate with, or who they should argue with on blogs.  Unequally yoked is a totally different point than what your trying to make: 

Starting in Acts 17:16 - "While Paul was waiting for them in Athens, he was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols. So he reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there. A group of Epicurean and Stoic philosophers began to debate with him. Some of them asked, “What is this babbler trying to say?” Others remarked, “He seems to be advocating foreign gods.” They said this because Paul was preaching the good news about Jesus and the resurrection. Then they took him and brought him to a meeting of the Areopagus, where they said to him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? You are bringing some strange ideas to our ears, and we would like to know what they mean.” (All the Athenians and the foreigners who lived there spent their time doing nothing but talking about and listening to the latest ideas.)  Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: “People of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. So you are ignorant of the very thing you worship—and this is what I am going to proclaim to you.   “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands."

Comparatively, arguing in the Areopagus is akin to reasoning with modern day ivy league professors on their home turf. 

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #151 on: January 28, 2012, 08:13:26 AM »

7)Behold, He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth shall gaze upon Him and beat their breasts and mourn and lament over Him. Even so [must it be]. Amen (so be it).

I'm thinking I'm going to know about it.

"Every eye will see him." Because the Earth is flat? Blind people too? What about the 1/3 that are sleeping?

"Even those who pierced them." Proof that Jesus was supposed to return within the lifetime of those that saw him face to face. Those that pierced him cannot see him, if they're D E A D.

"all the tribes of the Earth" Bronze Age Tribal mentality... funny considering they should have been able to move onto the Nationality concept.

"all the Earth will gaze ... beat thier breasts[1] and mourn and lament" Well, it does say "all the Earth" if it means people, it also means Christians. Sad sad horrible day for everyone.

"Amen. (so be it)" The Precedence of words in the Bible that are not translated are names of People and Places. The precedence is established in the naming of Cain, and of Babel and kept thruout the Bible.

Quote from: http://www.touregypt.net/amen.htm
Now, not only is the god himself said to be "hidden," but his name also is "hidden," and his form, or similitude, is said to be "unknown;" these statements show that "hidden," when applied to Amen, the great god,

hidden[2], unknown[3]: sound familiar?
 1. because we're gorillas?  &)
 2. invisible
 3. mysterious ways
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 08:22:05 AM by TruthSeeker »

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #152 on: January 28, 2012, 08:51:20 AM »
I on the other hand have my keys.When you go looking for something you have already found well, to me , that's a waste of time.

I'd be happy to help you find your keys, though.

No.  You believe you have your keys; just like the Hindu's believe they have their keys, and the Muslims believe they have theirs, and the Jews, theirs.  The problem is that you all claim that your keys work on the same doors, but upon close inspection, all of your keys are different, and that none of them actually open anything.   

The sad thing is, no matter how many times you put them in the door and nothing happens, you still expect them to work.  The very definition of insanity.
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #153 on: January 28, 2012, 11:57:16 AM »

You have Jesus, here, in the flesh, on Earth?  Really?  Wow!  Can you point him out to me?

 I don't recall saying " in the flesh"
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #154 on: January 28, 2012, 01:23:30 PM »
You said that you've observed the 2nd coming.  If that wasn't what you meant to say, then you should have posted something different.

EDIT:  That's what Screwtape was talking about re: "your keys".  Your keys = observation of Jesus' second coming here on Earth, today.  You said you "had your keys".  So, where is he?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 01:51:06 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #155 on: January 28, 2012, 01:30:43 PM »
You said that you've observed the 2nd coming.  If that wasn't what you meant to say, then you should have posted something different.

I'm guessing the second coming was like May(?) 21st - spiritual. Id est: No evidence for it and absolutely nobody will notice any difference, except those who were already indoctrinated into believing it.
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #156 on: January 28, 2012, 02:27:22 PM »
You said that you've observed the 2nd coming.  If that wasn't what you meant to say, then you should have posted something different.

EDIT:  That's what Screwtape was talking about re: "your keys".  Your keys = observation of Jesus' second coming here on Earth, today.  You said you "had your keys".  So, where is he?

 You're correct ...I did give the impression I'd already experienced the 'second coming'. You can probably tell by the rest of the posts that I have not.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #157 on: January 28, 2012, 02:50:44 PM »
Which is why I made the post I did:  You never answered Screwtape's point about "finding your keys".  Why did you need to avoid addressing that point, such that you had to make a misleading reply?
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #158 on: January 28, 2012, 03:12:23 PM »
Which is why I made the post I did:  You never answered Screwtape's point about "finding your keys".  Why did you need to avoid addressing that point, such that you had to make a misleading reply?

  I did address the point...incorrectly. I misunderstood his 'lost key' analogy.  I believe that as long as I'm ready for it, whether I am alive or not I have no reason to fret about it.I take Scripture to incicate it will be( Christs Return) evident to everyone. Why chase after every supposed christ?
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline One Above All

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #159 on: January 28, 2012, 03:15:10 PM »
  I did address the point...incorrectly. I misunderstood his 'lost key' analogy.  I believe that as long as I'm ready for it, whether I am alive or not I have no reason to fret about it.I take Scripture to incicate it will be( Christs Return) evident to everyone. Why chase after every supposed christ?

The Bible also says that the sky is as hard as cast bronze and spread out like a tent over a flat disc (the Earth itself). If it can be wrong about that, why not about Jesus's[1] return?
 1. Fuck special grammar rules for biblical names.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #160 on: January 28, 2012, 03:21:24 PM »
  I did address the point...incorrectly. I misunderstood his 'lost key' analogy.  I believe that as long as I'm ready for it, whether I am alive or not I have no reason to fret about it.I take Scripture to incicate it will be( Christs Return) evident to everyone. Why chase after every supposed christ?

Other than the fact that you can't point to a historical time when the Christ's Parausia or return occured in antiquity, what makes you believe that it is to happen in the future?
Did Jesus and his followers and indicate that he would return to the same land or world (Palestine) that he ascended from?
Where there "some" people that were living to witness his life and death that would still be alive to literally see him when he returned in glory and judgment?
Wasn't Jesus' return supposed to be SOON?
What indication do you have that the writings attributed to Luke, Matthew, and even Paul were directed at anyone living beyond the time of their contemporaries?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #161 on: January 29, 2012, 09:08:09 AM »
I on the other hand have my keys.

But you do NOT have your keys.  You have an empty key chain.  You hold it up and say "see?" but there are no keys on it.  It does not jingle when you shake it.  It does not actually open any doors.  You do not have a jesus.  You have an idea of jesus.


But their Scriptures were right.I don't want to make the same mistake they did.

Why do you keep evading these points?  Is it that you do not want to give me any credit at all for being right about some things? Why is that so hard for you?

I'm thinking I'm going to know about it.

Of course you think that.  Nobody thinks "jesus is going to come back, and I'm probably going to miss it."  Everyone sees himself as the protagonist because in his mind, it is his own story.  Nobody sees themselves as the supporting cast, the expendable red shirts.  Everyone is Captain Kirk in their own minds.

So at that "once upon a time" period all of the Jews ( who would make up the first Church almost in it's entirety)

That period lasted for about five minutes.  And it has nothing to do with my point. Were the overwhelming majority of jews unimpressed by the claims of jesus being the messiah?  It is a simple point and one so obvious I would not think anyone would find it worth arguing or dodging. 


Therefore, it is possible when jesus H comes again, it will not be in the way you expect.

Can't say I have  an exact 'way" in mind, just that whatever way it is I'm confident that I will know.

You just used quotes about lightning going from east to west, said it would be an awesome light show and now you say you don't have any "way" in mind.  You are full of baloney, stew.

And of course you have no way of knowing.

I'm going by what you told me.

Agreed.You are special.

Dodging the point.

Panic mode?  What should I be panicked about?  Hell?  Right.  I'm as panicked about that as I am that Santa will leave coal in my stocking.  Oh noes!  Look out everybody!  We have to love a man who may never have existed or a man no one has ever seen will send you to a place no one can possibly even know exists!

Yeah.  I'm in panic mode alright.

 You don't have to.

You are using a strawman.  If you are going to parse to make a point, parse the context.  It is a conditional statement.  "You must do X OR Y will happen".  I made the rest of the conditional bold and purple.  We have to love jesus H, OR yhwh will send us to hell. If you stop and only quote the part before the OR - as you have done - it makes my point appear very different.



You act as if Christians should be running around all concerned about Christ's return. 

If your mom said she was going out for milk and would be right back, and then 30 years later still hadn't turned up, you'd probably be concerned.  Well, you'd be concerned for the first few days.  After that you'd be pretty sure she was gone and not coming back.   So jesus H said he was going to be back before his generation died out.  Here we are almost 2000 years later, still waiting. In you minds, I think you know he's not coming.



How amazingly naive.Let me guess...you think all the Christians in the world are just like the ones in 'upstate NY' ? Like a Christian version of Santa's Village?

No.  I picture them more like southern pentecostals, dancing around wildly, jabbering away in "tongues", lying on the floor foaming at the mouth and twitching spasmodically.


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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #162 on: January 29, 2012, 03:44:03 PM »

But you do NOT have your keys.  You have an empty key chain.  You hold it up and say "see?" but there are no keys on it.  It does not jingle when you shake it.  It does not actually open any doors.  You do not have a jesus.  You have an idea of jesus.

I messed up your "key analogy" once already. I'm taking this to refer to my salvation,to which I say, I do indeed have Jesus,the Biblical Hebrew Messiah.
 I think you only had an "idea of Jesus"- which wouldn't sustain your walk...it is too difficult to do by human effort alone.



Why do you keep evading these points?  Is it that you do not want to give me any credit at all for being right about some things? Why is that so hard for you?

You want credit for saying the majority of Jews would reject Jesus as Messiah? Ok. I mean you could practically knock a Bible off a table and odds are it would open to something saying that very thing.



Of course you think that.  Nobody thinks "jesus is going to come back, and I'm probably going to miss it."  Everyone sees himself as the protagonist because in his mind, it is his own story.  Nobody sees themselves as the supporting cast, the expendable red shirts.  Everyone is Captain Kirk in their own minds.

You just have no clue.What exactly did you   think it meant to be a Christian....back in the day? You are adamantly fighting against something you haven't even grasped yet.



That period lasted for about five minutes.  And it has nothing to do with my point. Were the overwhelming majority of jews unimpressed by the claims of jesus being the messiah?  It is a simple point and one so obvious I would not think anyone would find it worth arguing or dodging. 

 see above.There wasn't a Christian Church without the Jews who believed at the beginning.There wasn't any salvation with out the Messiah...who was born a Jew.What we have for Christianity  was because of the Jews.

Therefore, it is possible when jesus H comes again, it will not be in the way you expect.


You just used quotes about lightning going from east to west, said it would be an awesome light show and now you say you don't have any "way" in mind.  You are full of baloney, stew.

 I said "exact"way.In the case you take that as a specific way and not a general description  then no , it won't be in a way I don't expect.



Dodging the point.
 

You went from being wrong to being a 'legend in you own mind' .I felt just agreeing was the best response.



Panic mode?  What should I be panicked about?  Hell?  Right.  I'm as panicked about that as I am that Santa will leave coal in my stocking.  Oh noes!  Look out everybody!  We have to love a man who may never have existed or a man no one has ever seen will send you to a place no one can possibly even know exists!

Yeah.  I'm in panic mode alright.

 
You are using a strawman.  If you are going to parse to make a point, parse the context.  It is a conditional statement.  "You must do X OR Y will happen".  I made the rest of the conditional bold and purple.  We have to love jesus H, OR yhwh will send us to hell. If you stop and only quote the part before the OR - as you have done - it makes my point appear very different.

 Ok, a Man who existed and seen by multiplied thousands of people will send unbelievers to a "place" that He spoke of more than anyone else in The Bible.Yet people who mock it have actually heard it and think probably feigning surprise about it can get them off.




If your mom said she was going out for milk and would be right back, and then 30 years later still hadn't turned up, you'd probably be concerned.  Well, you'd be concerned for the first few days.  After that you'd be pretty sure she was gone and not coming back.

 But she would have also informed me that first she was getting 'milk' for all the people in the world who didn't have milk ....I wouldn't be so surprised.



  So jesus H said he was going to be back before his generation died out.  Here we are almost 2000 years later, still waiting. In you minds, I think you know he's not coming.


 I don't think He did.In my mind and "heart" I do know He's coming back.You can repeat your mantra over and over...it's to no avail.If you had ever been born-again you would certainly understand.



No.  I picture them more like southern pentecostals, dancing around wildly, jabbering away in "tongues", lying on the floor foaming at the mouth and twitching spasmodically.

  That type of ignorant stereotyping is something one would expect from a bigot.I've never considered you to be one so I'll just stay with " you must just be naive."
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #163 on: January 29, 2012, 05:27:15 PM »
I'm taking this to refer to my salvation,to which I say, I do indeed have Jesus,the Biblical Hebrew Messiah.

Ah, so you're using words that are not related as if they were interchangeable.  When you say you "have jesus", you don't mean you have jesus.  You mean you have salvation.  I think you probably know the idea of salvation is silly and childish to me, so I don't see any point in getting into it.

I think you only had an "idea of Jesus"-

Of course I only had an idea of jesus.  That is all anyone has.  That is all there is.  But I didn't think that then.  I only learned that in retrospect.  When I was in the thick of my "brain fever", I thought I had a friend in jesus H.

You want credit for saying the majority of Jews would reject Jesus as Messiah?

No.  That they did reject jesus. That was what I said.  Your response was some link about jews converting.  Who gives a rats ass?  That was beside the point.


You just have no clue.What exactly did you   think it meant to be a Christian....back in the day? You are adamantly fighting against something you haven't even grasped yet.

I take that as a concession. 


see above.There wasn't a Christian Church without the Jews who believed at the beginning.There wasn't any salvation with out the Messiah...who was born a Jew.What we have for Christianity  was because of the Jews.

what we have for xianity was also because of gentiles.  And pagans. And other pagans.  Not the point. The only thing I was trying to say, which you have failed to grasp, and against which you have vehemently fought, was:
1. jews had messianic prophecies.
2. jews did not think jesus H met those prophecies
3. xians say jesus did meet them, just not how the jews expected.

That's it.  It's simple.  It is probably what you would say if someone asked you why all the jews didn't buy into jesus H.  It did not require any of the nonsense you have posted so far.

I said "exact"way.In the case you take that as a specific way and not a general description  then no , it won't be in a way I don't expect.

You're kidding yourself.

Ok, a Man who existed and seen by multiplied thousands of people will send unbelievers to a "place" that He spoke of more than anyone else in The Bible.Yet people who mock it have actually heard it and think probably feigning surprise about it can get them off.

Ah, right.  The old "those rascally atheists actually believe in god deep down and are shitting their pants" argument.  What makes you use that argument?  What is your justification for that conclusion?


But she would have also informed me that first she was getting 'milk' for all the people in the world who didn't have milk ....I wouldn't be so surprised.

?  I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

I don't think He did. 

You don't think he did what?  Say he would be back?  If you believe the bible, that part followed one of the quotes you used about his return:
Quote from: matthew 24:34
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Seems pretty obvious to me.

In my mind and "heart" I do know He's coming back.You can repeat your mantra over and over...it's to no avail.

Would you please stop with that?  You don't know.  You can't know. You could not possibly know. 

I have this argument with my grandmother all the time.  She gets on my case about god and then says something almost identical to what you said.  I tell her she doesn't know.  My issue is with the certitude.  Certitude is a bad thing.  It gets in the way of reasonableness.  It gets in the way of new data.  It gets in the way of making sure your beliefs are based on the very best and most updated data.  It is particularly hairy when talking about allegedly infinite beings who live "outside space and time".  How could any mortal human know anything about such abstract and distant things, let alone know it with the kind of certitude you are trying to convince me of?

You remember that basketball coach at Syracuse U?  He was certain his assistant coach was innocent.  Then new information came out.  Oops.  Certitude is a negative emotion and it is for fools. Of that I am certain.

If you had ever been born-again you would certainly understand.

I was never born again.  I was catholic.  We considered born agains to be vulgar rubes.  At least, I did. 


  That type of ignorant stereotyping is something one would expect from a bigot.I've never considered you to be one so I'll just stay with " you must just be naive."

What?  Are you saying pentecostals don't do that stuff?
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Offline thebigwhitedude

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #164 on: January 29, 2012, 11:46:34 PM »
I just like to divide the bible up into its 2 syllables

Bible...

(Buy Bull) :P

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #165 on: January 30, 2012, 12:36:37 PM »
ah, lovely to see that OS and Jtp are showing off their magic decoder rings.  It's so cute to watch Christians claim to have the only "right" answer and have nothing to support their claims.   Jtp, the Romans had a altar to an unknown god so they wouldn't piss off any god that they might have missed.  They knew about the god of the Jews and didn't care.  Paul was telling them nothing new.  And Paul was getting basic Judaism wrong which was amusing.  Have to abandon it when getting that new audience for his new religion.
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #166 on: January 30, 2012, 05:24:22 PM »
I just like to divide the bible up into its 2 syllables

Bible...

(Buy Bull) :P

I would rather divide it up like this instead.  "Bye Bull" in other words, say bye to all the bullshit!  ;)
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #167 on: January 30, 2012, 05:41:53 PM »

Ah, so you're using words that are not related as if they were interchangeable.  When you say you "have jesus", you don't mean you have jesus.  You mean you have salvation.  I think you probably know the idea of salvation is silly and childish to me, so I don't see any point in getting into it.

 They actually are interchangeable, one example :

8)Those who are in the realm of the flesh cannot please God.
 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[a] because of righteousness.
 another

Colossians 1:27
 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I should be more careful with "Christian- speak " , though.
 


Of course I only had an idea of jesus.  That is all anyone has.  That is all there is.

No, there is the reality of Jesus.



  But I didn't think that then.  I only learned that in retrospect.  When I was in the thick of my "brain fever", I thought I had a friend in jesus H.

You did and still do.



No.  That they did reject jesus. That was what I said.  Your response was some link about jews converting.  Who gives a rats ass?  That was beside the point.

They did  and still do for the most part.



I take that as a concession. 

Well you shouldn't .I know the Christians I keep up with have only the desire to serve Christ not take the spotlight.
 


what we have for xianity was also because of gentiles.  And pagans. And other pagans.  Not the point. The only thing I was trying to say, which you have failed to grasp, and against which you have vehemently fought, was:
1. jews had messianic prophecies.
2. jews did not think jesus H met those prophecies
3. xians say jesus did meet them, just not how the jews expected.

That's it.  It's simple.  It is probably what you would say if someone asked you why all the jews didn't buy into jesus H.  It did not require any of the nonsense you have posted so far.

Fair enough...I agree .


quote author=onesteward link=topic=20943.msg474158#msg474158 date=1327869843]
 I said "exact"way.In the case you take that as a specific way and not a general description  then no , it won't be in a way I don't expect.

You're kidding yourself.

 Well of course I'm sure I'm not kidding myself.



Ah, right.  The old "those rascally atheists actually believe in god deep down and are shitting their pants" argument.  What makes you use that argument?  What is your justification for that conclusion?

I'm not trying to use that argument...I don't believe that is the case for the most part.



?  I have no idea what that has to do with anything.

Jesus said The Gospel would be preached throughout the whole world.Then He would come.




You don't think he did what?  Say he would be back?  If you believe the bible, that part followed one of the quotes you used about his return:

 I don't think He told them His return was to be in their lifetime.


matthew 24:34]34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened

Seems pretty obvious to me.

This seems more likely to me:

34)Truly I tell you, this generation (
  • the whole multitude of people living at the same time, [p]in a definite, [q]given period) will not pass away till all these things [r]taken together take place.


    35)Sky and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

    36But of that [exact] day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.


Would you please stop with that?  You don't know.  You can't know. You could not possibly know. 

I won't stop because I do know ,am able to know and am expected to know.


I have this argument with my grandmother all the time.  She gets on my case about god and then says something almost identical to what you said.  I tell her she doesn't know.  My issue is with the certitude.  Certitude is a bad thing.  It gets in the way of reasonableness.  It gets in the way of new data.  It gets in the way of making sure your beliefs are based on the very best and most updated data.

 There isn't going to be any more data regarding salvation.It was done  "once for all".



  It is particularly hairy when talking about allegedly infinite beings who live "outside space and time".  How could any mortal human know anything about such abstract and distant things, let alone know it with the kind of certitude you are trying to convince me of?

There is only one way I can think of...He made Himself known.


You remember that basketball coach at Syracuse U?  He was certain his assistant coach was innocent.  Then new information came out.  Oops.  Certitude is a negative emotion and it is for fools. Of that I am certain.

Because your own life is lived out in the realm of uncertainty....I've lived there .This is much better.


I was never born again.  I was catholic.  We considered born agains to be vulgar rubes.  At least, I did.

Even in Catholicism  salvation requires a direct "intervention" by God.I think some of the earlier Catholic ' mystics' have had a profound impact on every aspect of the Church.At least the US and the UK.

What?  Are you saying pentecostals don't do that stuff?

I've not seen it.I've gone to many pentecostal services even a "tent revival"  in Alabama.The only part of your description I've seen was the " speaking in tongues".







When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #168 on: January 30, 2012, 05:47:34 PM »
The early Christians had found their keys, too:

The Arians, who believed that Jesus was a human creation of god, first had the keys.
The Nestorians, who thought that Jesus was a human-god hybrid, now had the keys.
The Monophysites, who said that Jesus was a god, no human at all, had the keys next. They made war on the others and drove them out as heretics.

Then along came Emperor Constantine and the Nicean councils. They drove out all the others as heretics and came up with the Trinity! Which is what most Christians believe today. Three invisible keys on one magic key ring.

The others all still exist in minority Xian sects like the Arian JW's and the Monophysite Coptics and the Nestorians in India.

Most of today's Xians don't know their own religious history or they might not be so smug about how they have it right. You only have it right until someone more powerful comes along and tells you different.

Remember the Jews had it right once-- they had the magic keys, too. Supposedly same god, very different keys. Now consider the Muslims....same old god, very different shiny new keys.
 
All of you can't be right, but you can all be wrong.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2012, 05:49:36 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #169 on: January 31, 2012, 09:30:39 AM »
No, there is the reality of Jesus.
and funny how no Christian can show any evidence for this Jesus.   No evidence that this god exists, no evidence that any of the events in teh bible happened, nothing.  With your standards, I can also say that Zeus is just as real as your Jesus. 
Quote
Jesus said The Gospel would be preached throughout the whole world. Then He would come.
  What's he waiting for now?  Christians have been changing the "requirements" for JC to return for the last 2000+ years since their supposed messiah consistently fails. 

and OS, I'm still waiting for answers to my earlier questions. 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #170 on: January 31, 2012, 09:36:01 AM »
I should be more careful with "Christian- speak " , though.

yes, this.
 
No, there is the reality of Jesus.

stew, simple one-liner, back and forths don't get it done. You think there is jesus.  I don't.  We could abbreviate the conversation with "Nuh-uh" and "yuh-huh", but that would really be pointless, wouldn't it?  I sure would not feel satisfied.  At the end you would shake your head at my stubborn refusal of what you take on faith, and I would be frustrated at your stubborn refusal to provide evidence.  Lose-lose. 

You did and still do.

No, I don't.  I look at friendship in a more... practical[1] way.  My friends are tangible.  They talk to me.  They take me to the airport.  They send birthday cards. They ask me to help them move.  And they do these things because they are actual people and we like each others company. 

Jesus does none of that.  Jesus is not an actual person anymore.  He does not do anything.  He is just an idea.  If you tell me jesus is your pal and you talk to him all the time, well, so what?  Does he talk back?  I can talk to  traffic signs but that does not mean we are actually friends.  Does jesus actually do anything?  Do you expect him to do anything? 

Fair enough...I agree .

thank you.  We are not going to disagree about absolutely everything.


I'm not trying to use that argument...I don't believe that is the case for the most part.

If you say that's not your argument, I'll take you at your word.  It just sounded like that was the argument you were using.

Jesus said The Gospel would be preached throughout the whole world.Then He would come.

Hasn't it been preached pretty much everywhere by now?


This seems more likely to me:

I don't see the distinction.

I won't stop because I do know ,am able to know and am expected to know.

I disagree with 2/3 that. You are talking about events that have not happened yet.  Explain how you know and how you are able to know.  You may believe it has been promised, you may sincerely think it will be so, but knowing it is impossible.  I think the expectation is the problem.  People often espouse ridiculous things because their social group expects it.  See the Asch Conformity Experiments.

There isn't going to be any more data regarding salvation.It was done  "once for all".

Do you know everything there is to know about salvation, jesus and god?  If not, then there is information that is new to you. 

There is only one way I can think of...He made Himself known.

There are three problems with that. 

First, we would only know what he wanted us to know.  Imagine if someone could completely control what everyone else knew about them.  Would you be able to trust that person?  Do you think they would allow you to know anything bad?  Anything embarrassing?  Do you think that if he was up to no good he would make his motives apparent? 

Second, it does not matter what god allows you to know.  If he is so abstract and incomprehensible, you aren't going to comprehend.  They best you could do is have an idea of what god is akin to.  Your understanding of god would be a simile, an analogy.  And if there is anything I have learned on this forum, it is that analogies always break down when pushed too far.  And they are always pushed too far.

Third, no matter what, you could not know the slightest fraction of god, even if it seems like a whole lot because God is infinite. Whatever you think you know, it is finite because your brain is finite.  It is simple math.
(whole lot)/ (infinity) = 0.
Even if you doubled that, it is still nothing: (2x a whole lot)/ (infinity) = 0
because (any finite number)/ (infinity) = 0

Xian theology has evolved god into an abstraction in order to protect it from scrutiny and going the way of whole pantheons of gods.  The trade off is god is now something completely alien, distant and incomprehensible.

Because your own life is lived out in the realm of uncertainty....I've lived there .This is much better.

I am sure it feels better, but it is not in fact better.  It is worse for the reasons I stated.

The only part of your description I've seen was the " speaking in tongues".

How did you not laugh out loud?
 1. not to be confused with utilitarian or mercenary
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #171 on: January 31, 2012, 07:06:14 PM »

 You think there is jesus.  I don't.

That is the whole thing in a nutshell.All of the arguments and 'evidence for...evidence against' distills down to what you said there. Once I accepted that  "Jesus is" it changed everything for me in my life.Not to bore you with Scripture but this became very real in my own experience :

Hebrews 11
6) But without faith it is impossible to please and be satisfactory to Him. For whoever would come near to God must [necessarily] believe that God exists and that He is the rewarder of those who earnestly and diligently seek Him [out].



 We could abbreviate the conversation with "Nuh-uh" and "yuh-huh", but that would really be pointless, wouldn't it?  I sure would not feel satisfied.  At the end you would shake your head at my stubborn refusal of what you take on faith, and I would be frustrated at your stubborn refusal to provide evidence.  Lose-lose. 

 I think I might be more sympathetic to your position than you might suppose.A good portion of my life was spent indifferent to God .I got saved and after a while ended up spending around 10 years thinking I " got hosed" in the deal.You will be frustrated if I'm supposed to bring any new data to the table.We all have to work with what has been given.




No, I don't.  I look at friendship in a more... practical[1] way.  My friends are tangible.  They talk to me.  They take me to the airport.  They send birthday cards. They ask me to help them move.  And they do these things because they are actual people and we like each others company. 

Jesus does none of that.  Jesus is not an actual person anymore.  He does not do anything.  He is just an idea.
 1. not to be confused with utilitarian or mercenary

He is an actual person ,I believe.He is ruling and reigning, Head of His Church ( the body) equipping The Church and interceding on our behalf.



 If you tell me jesus is your pal and you talk to him all the time, well, so what?  Does he talk back?  I can talk to  traffic signs but that does not mean we are actually friends.

He does , both through His word and by The Holy Spirit.You may not be friends with a traffic sign but they do talk to us.They tell us what the authorities want us to know, how fast I should be driving for example.


Hasn't it been preached pretty much everywhere by now?

I think there are still unreached areas.



I don't see the distinction.

That it wasn't supposed to be their generation necessarily but all of the things would happen in one generation.If they thought the Gospel was to be preached into 'all the world' I don't believe they would take that to mean their own generation. Transportation being what it was then.




I disagree with 2/3 that. You are talking about events that have not happened yet.  Explain how you know and how you are able to know.  You may believe it has been promised, you may sincerely think it will be so, but knowing it is impossible.

Christ wouldn't have said something was assured if He wasn't positive what He said was true.I have an confidence about it than I can only describe as knowing.


  I think the expectation is the problem.  People often espouse ridiculous things because their social group expects it.  See the Asch Conformity Experiments.

Ok , sure. This site would qualify as well then.My understanding changed when I was introduced to people who did exactly opposite of what their social groups expected.That experiment isn't so much applicable in Saudi Arabia and North Korea for example.



Do you know everything there is to know about salvation, jesus and god?  If not, then there is information that is new to you.

New to me, of course.New information, I don't think so.God calls Himelf.. I Am That I Am.I take that at one level to mean the same then , now and forever.


[There are three problems with that. 

First, we would only know what he wanted us to know.  Imagine if someone could completely control what everyone else knew about them.  Would you be able to trust that person?

I believe that person exists. I trust Him implicitly.He wants us to know Him as we are known.


  Do you think they would allow you to know anything bad?  Anything embarrassing?  Do you think that if he was up to no good he would make his motives apparent? 

Being omnipotent , hey, what would he have to lose?

Second, it does not matter what god allows you to know.  If he is so abstract and incomprehensible, you aren't going to comprehend.  They best you could do is have an idea of what god is akin to.  Your understanding of god would be a simile, an analogy.  And if there is anything I have learned on this forum, it is that analogies always break down when pushed too far.  And they are always pushed too far.

We can understand Him through what He created.Even though it's a 'fallen world" I can know He loves beauty when I watch butterflies or birds for example.I think you can detect a sense of humor because little kids are so funny.Of course I believe He can love unconditionally becaus He sent His son.



Third, no matter what, you could not know the slightest fraction of god, even if it seems like a whole lot because God is infinite. Whatever you think you know, it is finite because your brain is finite.  It is simple math.
(whole lot)/ (infinity) = 0.
Even if you doubled that, it is still nothing: (2x a whole lot)/ (infinity) = 0
because (any finite number)/ (infinity) = 0

Xian theology has evolved god into an abstraction in order to protect it from scrutiny and going the way of whole pantheons of gods.  The trade off is god is now something completely alien, distant and incomprehensible.

We can know as much as we like about Him.If you have seen The Son you have seen The Father.

Hebrews 1

The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word.




How did you not laugh out loud?

I have actually a few times.I heard the people speaking in tongues several times in Charismatic Catholic meetings.Many times of course in pentecostal meetings and everything in between.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #172 on: February 01, 2012, 10:52:21 AM »
Something to think about: If YHWH is not a liar, then he must make good on all his promises and threats.

He states that if anyone worships another god besides him, he will punish thier descendents to the 1,000th generation. That's 40,000 years. Jesus is not comming back until every single person on this planet is a) Christian and b) never broke the 2nd commandment for 40,000 years.

So a simple probable, not going to happen, is in order I think. What's the point of making this threat, if he's not going to follow through with it? We're still generation 0 since there are still people who pray to other gods.

Plus in Jeremiah he states that if humans ever figure out how to measure the 'heavens[1]' he will reject all his children for what they had done. (Jer 31:37) So, too late, what's done is done. No point in crying over spilt milk. What a waste, fooling humanity for thousands of years when he knew we were going to discover it and he would reject us. What a dick. Explains why he only had Jesus sleep for 36 hours instead of actually sacrificing himself.
 1. mile, light year, parsec

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #173 on: February 01, 2012, 11:53:34 AM »
Hebrews 11
6) But without faith it is impossible to please and be satisfactory to Him.

Faith has come to be one of the most damning pieces of evidence against god for me.  That can mean against god's existence or it can mean against an actual god.  First of all, this is asking for blind faith.  I know, most xians say it isn't, but they are wrong.  The bible demands belief without evidence.  It is not talking about fidelity or trust in this case.  It does that too, in other places.  But it exhorts people to believe without seeing.  Why?  How does that make any sense?  Why would the omnipotent creator of the universe make the the criterion for reward?  It created semi-rational, thinking people and then demand we not use our brains and rationality. 

The only other case in real life where blind faith like that is begged or demanded is in a con.  It is the con-man who says "trust me implicitly without question," and usually the most dangerous sort of con-man. 

Blind faith is not a virtue, it is a serious and dangerous character flaw.  Yet it is the corner stone of modern religion. 


He is an actual person ,I believe.He is ruling and reigning, Head of His Church ( the body) equipping The Church and interceding on our behalf.

Really?  Where is he?  Where is he sitting and making decisions?  To whom is he sending his dictations?  A lot of xians say these things, but they never ever produce an actual person.  He's always invisible or somewhere completely inaccessible, like, outside space and time.  I think you would think I was some kind of kook or asshole if I told you about my magical dragon king who happened to be invisible or ruled from a throne outside space and time.

Most importantly, how do you know?  For your own benefit you should ask that.  How do you know you are not being duped?  Who is really benefitting from your blind faith?

He does , both through His word and by The Holy Spirit.You may not be friends with a traffic sign but they do talk to us.They tell us what the authorities want us to know, how fast I should be driving for example.

So jesus is like a traffic sign?  I'll buy that.  Traffic signs are not interactive, like actual people.  They do not have conversations.  They are signs.  They are not communicating.  The authorities are.  The signs are not our actual friends.  All that applies to jesus H.  Only, you can touch traffic signs.

And the holy spirit?  You are explaining one imaginary friend by introducing an imaginary messenger for him.  Stew, this is insane.

I think there are still unreached areas.

You'd have to think that, since jesus H hasn't come back riding on the clouds yet.

That it wasn't supposed to be their generation necessarily but all of the things would happen in one generation.If they thought the Gospel was to be preached into 'all the world' I don't believe they would take that to mean their own generation. Transportation being what it was then.

Well, that is a pretty unorthodox interpretation and in my opinion, sadly naive.  I see no reason to think that in matt, mark and luke he was talking about any generation other than the one he was addressing.  Sure, in retrospect you could say "well, it didn't happen to that generation."  But isn't that more simply explained by his promise being a delusion?  Instead you have to invent all sorts of explanations.  And you have. 


Christ wouldn't have said something was assured if He wasn't positive what He said was true.I have an confidence about it than I can only describe as knowing.

So his certitude justifies your certitude. Remember what certitude is - an emotion.  And if jesus H was just a guy, or even worse, just a character in a series of popular stories, then your certitude is... insanity.

Ok , sure. This site would qualify as well then. 

eh?  We're just atheists because other people on this site are atheists and that is what is expected of us? 

My understanding changed when I was introduced to people who did exactly opposite of what their social groups expected.

You were introduced to atheists?

That experiment isn't so much applicable in Saudi Arabia and North Korea for example.

you totally lost me.

New to me, of course.New information, I don't think so.

so, my point stands.

God calls Himelf.. I Am That I Am. I take that at one level to mean the same then , now and forever.

I take that to mean when mixing a martini you should chill the glass with ice water before you pour the drink into it, and add the bitters after.  Stew, you are taking an incoherent collection of letters and assigning meaning to them, where there is none. 

I believe that person exists. I trust Him implicitly. 

My point is your trust is utterly unfounded.  You cannot observe this person.  You cannot question this person.  You cannot verify that what this person says is true. You can only have blind faith. For all you know, if this yhwh thing is real, it could be thoroughly evil and leading you into disaster.

He wants us to know Him as we are known.

I don't know what that means.  And whatever it means, you have no way of know it is so.


Being omnipotent , hey, what would he have to lose?

Maybe he's not omnipotent.  Maybe he just wants you to think he is to assuage his oversized ego.  Given what we actually know about yhwh, this is no less plausible than your description of him.

We can understand Him through what He created.

But that presumes. Who is telling us he created anything?  His PR people. 

Even though it's a 'fallen world"

It's not.  That is just the warped, perverted perspective of crazy people who have been called "prophets".  The rest of that paragraph is woo akin to what I might see in O magazine.

Of course I believe He can love unconditionally becaus He sent His son.

I would take that to mean that he is a sadist.  Someone who loved unconditionally would not need a hell or a blood sacrifice in the first place.

We can know as much as we like about Him.

That is absolutely untrue. You said yourself, we can only know what he reveals.  When we ask for more - that is, question him - he does nothing and his reps get all uptight and smitey.  And, as I just got done explaining, our brains are finite and capable of only finite comprehension.  You could fill an entire brain with nothing but understanding of god, and you would have no comprehension of god, because you are dividing by infinity.

If you have seen The Son you have seen The Father.

This is more support of your imaginary friend by introducing more imaginary people.


I have actually a few times.I heard the people speaking in tongues several times in Charismatic Catholic meetings.Many times of course in pentecostal meetings and everything in between.

pretty fucking crazy, ain't they?
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