Author Topic: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible  (Read 8747 times)

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #116 on: January 18, 2012, 10:50:19 AM »
I will have friends and family there.Neighbors as well.I don't know about those who aren't there....will I know they aren't there?
  Well, will you?  Funny how your god doesn’t say much about this.  The usual Christian responses about this are usually limited to two: that Christians will be spectators up in heaven, happily watching everyone being punished by god since that makes them feel all right and stuff; the other is that they will forget everything, thus not feeling sympathy or empathy and just become automatons worshipping this god.  Both are quite vile, IMO.
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Mrk 9 :1 and Luke 9: 27 have the same saying in essence. Both are then followed by the story of the Transfiguration .Could that be what it meant?
Well, could it, OS?  Explain how this would work, if you think it’s valid.   However, I suspect you realize that it makes no sense.  We have supposed weeks spanning the time between the quote and the transfiguration.  The scene in which the quote is spoken in is with a crowd and the disciples.  JC doesn’t say “my disciples will not taste death” only that some of the crowd.  The transfiguration doesn’t bring any kingdom of god at all, only JC glowing and a couple of patriarchs.  Matthew has that the return of this kingdom of god will be with angels and all sorts of special effects. 
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For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.    28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
  Nothing like that in any transfiguration.  Matt has to also make sure the reader realized that JC was supposedly talking about John the Baptist as Elijah since the apostles are rather thick.  Mark doesn’t bother. Luke doesn’t even mention the bit about Elijah returning at all.  and John? Well, evidently he didn’t find this important.  &)  If fact, JtB claims that he’s not Elijah. didn’t JC bother to tell him?   
and OS, answers to these questions please:
You claimed that the word hate is used in various places in the bible in a comparative manner.  Where?
If the message of JC is so pure and truthful, why did it have to be changed so much after he died and *didn’t* return?
Are they (Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc)  true Christians, OS? If they all have the same beliefs why do they have missionaries to convert each other? Do you think they all will get into heaven or the city of god on earth?
Since you aren’t of any of the named denominations, you evidently think that they are wrong, yes?
oh, so do you accept that I was a Christian just as good as you now?
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #117 on: January 18, 2012, 12:34:56 PM »


Surely it's about time that Christians lost their trainer wheels, and followed the synoptic gospel?

Then why did you include Acts into the mix?Paul is mentioned dozens of times in Acts.

 The Synoptics have Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, The 2 great commands: Love of God and love of neighbor.The Words regarding His Body and Blood at the Last Supper.There is probably no more important subject in all of Scripture than "The Blood".Do you think there were no Christians...' saved by Grace" before Paul came on the scene?Without John's Gospel?

Why would anyone with access to a Bible limit themselves to the Synoptics only?
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #118 on: January 18, 2012, 12:46:05 PM »
The Synoptics have Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, The 2 great commands: Love of God and love of neighbor.The Words regarding His Body and Blood at the Last Supper.There is probably no more important subject in all of Scripture than "The Blood".Do you think there were no Christians...' saved by Grace" before Paul came on the scene?Without John's Gospel?
  Thre's no evidence that Jesus Christ son of God existed at all and the synoptics and Paul disagree on how one is actually saved. 

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Why would anyone with access to a Bible limit themselves to the Synoptics only?
  it would save some pain on *some* of the ridiculous contradictions. 
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #119 on: January 19, 2012, 09:52:28 PM »


Surely it's about time that Christians lost their trainer wheels, and followed the synoptic gospel?

Then why did you include Acts into the mix?Paul is mentioned dozens of times in Acts.

That's a semi-legitimate comment.

Acts states that when you have the holy ghost in you, that you become a communist. This is consistent with the other quotes in Matthew, that say that you are supposed to give away all your money. Just because I quoted Acts does not mean I endorse the rest of it, or any gospel, or even believe that the Paul described in Acts is actually the same Paul who wrote the epistles.

Luke is a Kingdom and afterlife revisionist, and is trying to sell Paul to the pagans, and possibly even steal him back from Marcion (Acts 16:6). He maintains most of the Matthean quotes, but as you imply, Luke is on the slippery slope towards Paulism.

This means that there may be no empirical evidence that when you have the holy ghost in you, that you die of embarrassment, if you don't become a communist. Acts 5:5

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The Synoptics have Jesus' death, burial and resurrection, The 2 great commands: Love of God and love of neighbor.The Words regarding His Body and Blood at the Last Supper.There is probably no more important subject in all of Scripture than "The Blood".Do you think there were no Christians...' saved by Grace" before Paul came on the scene?Without John's Gospel?

If they were just working by Matthew, I don't see how they could be saved by Grace, because it's not mentioned in the gospel. I feel that if it was important, they would have mentioned it. You should think about how the author of John could have such a radically different view of Jesus and still have met the same person as Matthew did. Wouldn't he have remembered a single quote, or was his memory a bit blurry? Wouldn't Matthew have remembered the resurrection of Lazarus? Even I would remember that.

As far as I can work out, Jesus was of the Hillel branch of Judaism, and believed that Judaism could be seen as the expression of "Love thy neighbour as thyself"

"That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn." - Hillel  ~10BC

What Jesus saw as most problematic about Judaism, is that people were following the laws with the wrong priority. They used sacrifice and food laws to excess, and did not love their fellow man (enough). In Matthew, he apparently criticizes no Jewish Laws, and even states that he has not come to destroy them. What did he mean by fulfill? He meant assert their priority. The most important 2 laws are to love god, and love thy neighbour. Mark 12:33

If some laws are more important than others, it means that getting into heaven is a weighted-law meritocracy, not a Grace. Jews didn't have to worry about getting into heaven, so did not worry about which laws were more important. Jesus came to tell Jews which laws to pay attention to, to get into heaven, or bring about the Kingdom mentioned in Isaiah 11. "the leopard will lie down with the goat".

Paul  then took the idea that Jesus had restated the Jewish law, and then pretended that Jesus had absolved gentiles from the tedious bits of it. There is no indication of this in Matthew. Is the author of Matthew lying about Jesus, just so he can sell his message to the Jews? Or is Paul lying about Jesus' message, so he can sell it to the gentiles? Both Paul and John mix in the hocos-pocus that Jesus has special magical properties that let you ignore whatever you want, about whatever Jesus apparently said in Matthew.

Any way you look at it, Christianity is not the teachings of one man, but scores of ideas mixed together and then legitimized by the 'church'. The church decrees that the doctrine is not contradictory, and authorizes ways of interpreting the contradictions as non-contradictory. It's all very clever, but you can see the grubby finger prints of the fakers as they go.

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Why would anyone with access to a Bible limit themselves to the Synoptics only?

Well, that's the thing, isn't it. Christians just kept writing books and subtly tweeking previous teaching, until they got what they wanted. You wouldn't want to live by Matthew, because it tells you to give all your money away.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #120 on: January 21, 2012, 07:14:54 PM »

That's a semi-legitimate comment.

Acts states that when you have the holy ghost in you, that you become a communist.

If you are referring to the 1st church after Pentecost they did.As far as every believer...not so much from what I can see.

 This is consistent with the other quotes in Matthew, that say that you are supposed to give away all your money.
I can't find the quotes you may be referring to.

Just because I quoted Acts does not mean I endorse the rest of it, or any gospel, or even believe that the Paul described in Acts is actually the same Paul who wrote the epistles.

You just like the parts that you are able to use to bolster your position then?


Luke is a Kingdom and afterlife revisionist, and is trying to sell Paul to the pagans, and possibly even steal him back from Marcion (Acts 16:6).

I'm not sure what he supposedly revised.?As the author of Acts and Pauls traveling companion he doesn't seem to have a problem with Pauls teaching.He doesn't mention Marcion but maybe alludes to some of his( Marcion's) teaching?

 He maintains most of the Matthean quotes, but as you imply, Luke is on the slippery slope towards Paulism.

Or we may take it as that he doesn't find Paul's teaching to be out of line with Jesus' as he would have learned during his years as a diciple.


This means that there may be no empirical evidence that when you have the holy ghost in you, that you die of embarrassment, if you don't become a communist. Acts 5:5

That is certainly a figment from someone's vivid imagination.The Bible doesn't teach it.

If they were just working by Matthew, I don't see how they could be saved by Grace, because it's not mentioned in the gospel.I feel that if it was important, they would have mentioned it.

He introduces Jesus as The Messiah in Matt 1: 1.Coupled with the rest of the book I think they would have no trouble .Of course they would have to be saved by Grace...it's the only way.They knew The Messiah was to come and " save them from their sin".

 You should think about how the author of John could have such a radically different view of Jesus and still have met the same person as Matthew did. Wouldn't he have remembered a single quote, or was his memory a bit blurry? Wouldn't Matthew have remembered the resurrection of Lazarus? Even I would remember that.

  What's to think about? I see them as complementary.They wrote about different aspects of what they saw and learned as they were inspired to.Like Lazarus...obviously it was covered well enough for you to learn about him around 2000 years later.




What Jesus saw as most problematic about Judaism, is that people were following the laws with the wrong priority. They used sacrifice and food laws to excess, and did not love their fellow man (enough). In Matthew, he apparently criticizes no Jewish Laws, and even states that he has not come to destroy them. What did he mean by fulfill? He meant assert their priority. The most important 2 laws are to love god, and love thy neighbour. Mark 12:33
That kinda sums it up.What He said was:

“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30) Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31)  The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no commandment greater than these.”
 


If some laws are more important than others, it means that getting into heaven is a weighted-law meritocracy, not a Grace.
Sure if you want to try and keep the Law.Not if you want to be saved by the merit of The Cross.


 Jews didn't have to worry about getting into heaven, so did not worry about which laws were more important. Jesus came to tell Jews which laws to pay attention to, to get into heaven, or bring about the Kingdom mentioned in Isaiah 11. "the leopard will lie down with the goat".
Why would they have to know what laws to keep if  "Jews didn't have to worry ......"?



Paul  then took the idea that Jesus had restated the Jewish law, and then pretended that Jesus had absolved gentiles from the tedious bits of it. There is no indication of this in Matthew.

 Maybe that's why Matthew isn't the only Book in The New Testament.


 Is the author of Matthew lying about Jesus, just so he can sell his message to the Jews?
No

Or is Paul lying about Jesus' message, so he can sell it to the gentiles?
No


 Both Paul and John mix in the hocos-pocus that Jesus has special magical properties that let you ignore whatever you want, about whatever Jesus apparently said in Matthew.
You don't seem to grasp what was said in Matthew judging by your earlier statements about it.
You stop watching "the  shadow" when the actual 'substance' shows up.

      Hebrews 10

Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All
   
    The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming—not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. 2 Otherwise, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins. 3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins. 4 It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

 12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, 13 and since that time he waits for his enemies to be made his footstool. 14 For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.




Well, that's the thing, isn't it. Christians just kept writing books and subtly tweeking previous teaching, until they got what they wanted. You wouldn't want to live by Matthew, because it tells you to give all your money away.
I don't think it does.Are you referring to " The Rich Young Ruler"?
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #121 on: January 21, 2012, 10:53:09 PM »

You just like the parts that you are able to use to bolster your position then?


Well, the atheist position is that some books of the NT may contain information about a real Jesus-like person, who said said something radical enough to start the movement, and that persons after that, deified him and reinterpreted his crucifixion (and everything else). They did this by adding new material and deleting books they didn't like. The church then endorsed all the material as a corpus, and then told Christians that it was all equally valid, no matter which anonymous author wrote it. Now, Christians can take an average view of it all, without worrying if a particular addendum has different weight.

What really shits atheists, is the way Christians skip to verses in Timothy and Hebrews without a thought of whether the quote could have been faked later, or whether Paul even knew what he was talking about.

When an atheist argues using Biblical text, he is put in the unenviable position of knowing that it's all rubbish, but trying to find those parts of it that are least rubbish, and arguing that other parts are not consistent with it, even though later writers may have "harmonised" it. (Interpolated, faked, fudged). Sure, if John is a real factual book, we should all bow down, now. If real, Christians would have the right to look at John as something which gives more information on the subject, and therefore changes the interpretation of the Matthean message.

But, if John is just a fiction, then it's not 'more information', but instead is something which is designed to pervert the interpretation of Matthew. It's not even subtle about this agenda.

Logically, we can see that Jesus could have been an apocalyptic preacher, who tried to make Jews revise Jewish interpretation of scripture towards (1) love thy neighbour (as a priority), (2) resurrection, afterlife, apocalypse. Mark and Matthew are most consistent with this position.

Incovenient quotes which bolster this are:
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Jesus denies being good, or a god, which is consistent with the Jewish teacher theme. It contrasts terribly against John. Nowhere in Matthew does Jesus state that you should worship him to enter heaven. He states instead that observance of Jewish law is what causes you to enter life, which contrasts against Paul, who says the law is dead.

The beginning of Matthew states:
[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This is a statement that means something different if you have only read Matthew. If you add propaganda from Paul and John, then 'saving' means something different. In its Matthean context, Jesus is the teacher who preaches the new insights that will bring people to god.

[25] When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
[26] But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.


When you look through Matthew, the word 'savior' is missing (as well as any sense of it), even though Christians tend to use it a lot. In John, Jesus personally proclaims himself savior of the world, about 4 times.

Thus, John does not add information, he changes interpretation of previous information, and critically, we cannot hear the counterargument of those who wrote the original texts.

Practically all scholars (and Origenes) agree that Luke was written last, and you can see from the mere presence of Acts, that Luke's job has something to do with Paul.

Matt 11
[13] For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luke
[16] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
[17] And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.


Strangely, when Luke copies this quote from Matthew, he reverses 'prophets' and 'law'; perhaps to disguise the fact that he deliberately dropped the word "prophesied". Later Christians then inserted 'were', to complete the revision to Paul's perspective. What an amazing coincidence that Luke seems to screw up a critical quote, when he needs to support Paul.

As I said before, Luke suddenly knows what and where the Kingdom is, whereas previous writers never mention it.

Changes by addendum.

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He introduces Jesus as The Messiah in Matt 1: 1.Coupled with the rest of the book I think they would have no trouble .Of course they would have to be saved by Grace...it's the only way.They knew The Messiah was to come and " save them from their sin".

You say it's the only way to be saved, because the church has told you that Paul says it's the only way, because Paul said the law was dead. His argument was that we are all 'cursed', But the Hebrew 'curses' in Duet 28 are all for this world, not to obstruct you entering heaven, because the Jews did not believe in one. Bait and switch con.

The way to get into heaven, presented by Jesus in Matthew, is to love your enemy, give all your money away, blah blah... be perfect as God is (5:48). Only Paul says the law is dead. Beware false Christs, Jesus says in Matthew. Jesus couldn't get the message out on the first attempt, so he needed Paul to channel him. Yeah, right. If Jesus screwed up so badly on the first attempt, then why didn't he come back again?

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You don't seem to grasp what was said in Matthew judging by your earlier statements about it.

Probably because I'm looking at Matthew, and not addendums by Jesus 2.0

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What's to think about? I see them as complementary.They wrote about different aspects of what they saw and learned as they were inspired to.Like Lazarus...obviously it was covered well enough for you to learn about him around 2000 years later.

Right, so Matthew knew that John would come along and cover it, so left out the most important miracle of Jesus.

Quote
Why would they have to know what laws to keep if  "Jews didn't have to worry ......"?

Jews didn't fear sheol as Hell.

Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in sheol, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Job 17:13 If the only home I hope for sheol
Job 21:13 They spend their years in prosperity and go down to sheol in peace.
2 Samuel 22:6 The cords of the grave coiled around me; the snares of death confronted me.
Psalm 6:4 Turn, O LORD, and deliver me; save me because of your unfailing love. 5 No one remembers you when he is dead. Who praises you from the grave?

http://www.bibletopics.com/biblestudy/149.htm

Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
[10] Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Fear of hell was an addendum, believed by certain sects. It is not present as a repetitious threat in the Torah, but only as crypto-quotes, requiring addendums (midrash) to 'clarify'.

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I don't think it does.Are you referring to " The Rich Young Ruler"?

Covered.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #122 on: January 22, 2012, 09:34:42 AM »
I'm not sure what he supposedly revised.?As the author of Acts and Pauls traveling companion he doesn't seem to have a problem with Pauls teaching.He doesn't mention Marcion but maybe alludes to some of his( Marcion's) teaching?

 He maintains most of the Matthean quotes, but as you imply, Luke is on the slippery slope towards Paulism.

Or we may take it as that he doesn't find Paul's teaching to be out of line with Jesus' as he would have learned during his years as a diciple.

Could you please list the names of the 12 to show me which one was Luke?

Because I have this list:

Quote from:  http://www.biblepath.com/apostles.html
Simon (Peter)
Andrew
James (Son of Zebedee)
John
Philip
Bartholomew
Thomas
Matthew
James (Son of Alphaeus)
Jude (Thaddaeus)
Simon (The Zealot)
Judas
Matthias (replaced Judas).

http://www.biblepath.com/luke.html

Like Paul, Luke never met Jesus. He would never know if Paul's teachings were in-line with Jesus' or not. Were you hoping you could lie and God would twist reality to reflect your lie so it would not be a lie? Because you didn't "intentionally" lie? Or was it intentional? Or are you only ignorant about important details like that?

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #123 on: January 22, 2012, 10:06:58 AM »

Like Paul, Luke never met Jesus. He would never know if Paul's teachings were in-line with Jesus' or not. Were you hoping you could lie and God would twist reality to reflect your lie so it would not be a lie? Because you didn't "intentionally" lie? Or was it intentional? Or are you only ignorant about important details like that?

In that case it was unintentional ignorance.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #124 on: January 22, 2012, 10:30:41 AM »
Alright, cool.

A day you learn something new is a day not wasted.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #125 on: January 22, 2012, 01:03:23 PM »

Like Paul, Luke never met Jesus. He would never know if Paul's teachings were in-line with Jesus' or not. Were you hoping you could lie and God would twist reality to reflect your lie so it would not be a lie? Because you didn't "intentionally" lie? Or was it intentional? Or are you only ignorant about important details like that?

In that case it was unintentional ignorance.
Understandable; look at the thread title.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #126 on: January 23, 2012, 06:57:11 PM »

Well, the atheist position is that some books of the NT may contain information about a real Jesus-like person, who said said something radical enough to start the movement, and that persons after that, deified him and reinterpreted his crucifixion (and everything else). They did this by adding new material and deleting books they didn't like. The church then endorsed all the material as a corpus, and then told Christians that it was all equally valid, no matter which anonymous author wrote it. Now, Christians can take an average view of it all, without worrying if a particular addendum has different weight.

What really shits atheists, is the way Christians skip to verses in Timothy and Hebrews without a thought of whether the quote could have been faked later, or whether Paul even knew what he was talking about.

 I think we will use The Bible in all its fullness.Personally it all fits together when I read it.The Scriptures , to me anyway, are a means to an end and not the end in itself.

When an atheist argues using Biblical text, he is put in the unenviable position of knowing that it's all rubbish, but trying to find those parts of it that are least rubbish, and arguing that other parts are not consistent with it, even though later writers may have "harmonised" it. (Interpolated, faked, fudged).

 If you "know" it's all rubbish then what is the point of arguing.For every opinion, expert opinion I mean, there is going to be an opposing take on the same things.Does it just boil down to which person(s) you think got it right?
To me it is simply...a man with an experience is never at the mercy of someone who only has an argument.While that won't win a formal debate it makes the matter unquestioably settled in my life.
 

 Sure, if John is a real factual book, we should all bow down, now. If real, Christians would have the right to look at John as something which gives more information on the subject, and therefore changes the interpretation of the Matthean message.

 They are complementary to one another.The Bible  explains many of the seeming difficulties and explains and leads us in the correct direction.The Bible is a signpost it gives us the direction to go to receive what we need.If any part of The Bible is what Christians claim it to be everyone should bow down.

But, if John is just a fiction, then it's not 'more information', but instead is something which is designed to pervert the interpretation of Matthew. It's not even subtle about this agenda.

 Just curious...do you believe the compilers weren't "smart" enough to realize the two accounts would be  "perverted?

Logically, we can see that Jesus could have been an apocalyptic preacher, who tried to make Jews revise Jewish interpretation of scripture towards (1) love thy neighbour (as a priority), (2) resurrection, afterlife, apocalypse. Mark and Matthew are most consistent with this position.

Incovenient quotes which bolster this are:
[17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
[17] Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.


Jesus denies being good, or a god, which is consistent with the Jewish teacher theme.

These claims in Matt 12 led to the Jews wanting Him dead.

But I tell you, Something greater and more exalted and more majestic than the temple is here!

    7And if you had only known what this saying means, I desire mercy [readiness to help, to spare, to forgive] rather than sacrifice and sacrificial victims, you would not have condemned the guiltless.

    8For the Son of Man is Lord [even] of the Sabbath.

 A claim to be Lord of The Sabbath? Pretty amazing claim while talking to the Jews!Greater than The Temple...same thing.


 It contrasts terribly against John. Nowhere in Matthew does Jesus state that you should worship him to enter heaven. He states instead that observance of Jewish law is what causes you to enter life, which contrasts against Paul, who says the law is dead.
He accepts worship on more than one occasion.The people would certainly know " Who" alone is to be worsipped...God, yet He accepted it.


The beginning of Matthew states:
[21] And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This is a statement that means something different if you have only read Matthew. If you add propaganda from Paul and John, then 'saving' means something different. In its Matthean context, Jesus is the teacher who preaches the new insights that will bring people to god.

This is a pretty good 'stepping off point'

Matt  28....Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me.
They had to either believe that or not...same thing in this day and age.


[25] When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
[26] But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

 Because basically He told them 'the rich' wouldn't make it.

Sorry it's taking a while.I only get to do this at work.
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #127 on: January 24, 2012, 10:15:28 AM »
They are complementary to one another.  The Bible  explains many of the seeming difficulties and explains and leads us in the correct direction.  The Bible is a signpost it gives us the direction to go to receive what we need.  If any part of The Bible is what Christians claim it to be everyone should bow down.
  No, the bible does not do this as you claim.  It has direct contradictions and doesn’t do anything to explain them.  That is left up to Christians who claim they can do this through apologetics, with the help of some holy spirit, and who come up with different answers on what this god “really” meant.  Each Christian claims that they are being led in the “correct” direction, but of course they disagree on that direction, all sure that they are the only TrueChristianstm.  Since there is no agreement, there is no reason to think that any part of the bible is correct since even Christians can’t agree on what they “need”.  And this doesn’t even take into account the fact that none of the bible events are supported by any evidence at all, no archaeological, no geological, no contemporary accounts, etc. 

Now, if no parts of your bible are shown to be true, then what do you need to do, OS? 

Again, OS, are Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, the various sect of Orthodox Christianity, the Gnostic Christians, etc, true Christians, OS? If they all have the same beliefs why do they have missionaries to convert each other? Do you think they all will get into heaven or the city of god on earth?
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #128 on: January 25, 2012, 07:20:45 PM »

When you look through Matthew, the word 'savior' is missing (as well as any sense of it), even though Christians tend to use it a lot. In John, Jesus personally proclaims himself savior of the world, about 4 times.

Thus, John does not add information, he changes interpretation of previous information, and critically, we cannot hear the counterargument of those who wrote the original texts.

John quotes Jesus referring to Himself as savior.Because Matthew doesn't it seems troubling somehow and yet Matthew refers to Him as The Messiah, Reports Jesus praising Peter for understanding Who He is.....16)Simon Peter replied, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God. To which Jesus says :

17)Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven.

 I mean ..nuff said don't you think? This is The Messiah!He is the Savior.That would be obvious I should think without saying it specifically.


Practically all scholars (and Origenes) agree that Luke was written last, and you can see from the mere presence of Acts, that Luke's job has something to do with Paul.
I don't find any that feel Matthew was written first.In several instances some of Pauls epistles came first.If so why change that which came later, I don't see it.



Matt 11
[13] For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.

Luke
[16] The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
[17] And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.


Strangely, when Luke copies this quote from Matthew, he reverses 'prophets' and 'law'; perhaps to disguise the fact that he deliberately dropped the word "prophesied". Later Christians then inserted 'were', to complete the revision to Paul's perspective. What an amazing coincidence that Luke seems to screw up a critical quote, when he needs to support Paul.

As I said before, Luke suddenly knows what and where the Kingdom is, whereas previous writers never mention it.

Jesus mentions it in Matthew...20)For I tell you, unless your righteousness (your uprightness and your right standing with God) is more than that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


I can't see where reversing the order changes it...until means the same in both cases and The Law and Prophets did the same thing either way.John( as Elijah) ushered in a new era.


Changes by addendum.
I don't believe it does ,I think it enriches it.




You say it's the only way to be saved, because the church has told you that Paul says it's the only way, because Paul said the law was dead. His argument was that we are all 'cursed', But the Hebrew 'curses' in Duet 28 are all for this world, not to obstruct you entering heaven, because the Jews did not believe in one. Bait and switch con.

The way to get into heaven, presented by Jesus in Matthew, is to love your enemy, give all your money away, blah blah... be perfect as God is (5:48). Only Paul says the law is dead.

In Matthew 5 Jesus make Himself out to be "greater" so to speak than The Law..example

You have heard that it was said to the men of old, You shall not kill, and whoever kills shall be liable to and unable to escape the punishment imposed by the court.

22But I say to you ......

 and so forth for several times.




 Beware false Christs, Jesus says in Matthew. Jesus couldn't get the message out on the first attempt, so he needed Paul to channel him. Yeah, right. If Jesus screwed up so badly on the first attempt, then why didn't he come back again?

 He didn't screw up and He is coming back.



Right, so Matthew knew that John would come along and cover it, so left out the most important miracle of Jesus.

Not necessarily but The Holy Spirit did.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #129 on: January 26, 2012, 09:27:35 AM »
... and He is coming back.

Do you really believe that?  I know a lot of xians say that, but I don't think they actually believe it.  At least, they don't act like they believe it.

There are probably dozens of men over the world who, at this very moment, claim to be the second coming of jesus H christ.  Yet none of the xians I know have even bothered to check any of these guys out. 

Now, you might say, "those guys obviously are not jhc," and you may or may not be right.  But how do you know without checking it out?  You might also say "those guys don't fit the prophecies," and you may or many not be right.  But I also know that jews do not recognize jesus H as the messiah because he allegedly met the prophecies in ways they did not expect.  At least, that's what xians say.  So, maybe jesus H's second coming will not be quite what xians expect? 

If I were a xian, I would have to be open to that idea.  Consequently, I would have to check out everyone claiming to be jesus H[1].  Because you never know. And because no xian I have ever met does this, it tells me they do not actually expect jesus H to come back.  They anticipate jesus H not returning.  It tells me they believe in belief, but they do not actually believe their beliefs. 

So, stewie, do you check these guys out or are you just another unbelieving believer?

 1. and some of the ones who don't claim it, just to be safe
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #130 on: January 26, 2012, 03:16:02 PM »

Do you really believe that?  I know a lot of xians say that, but I don't think they actually believe it.  At least, they don't act like they believe it.

I really do believe it, yes ( That Jesus is coming back).Why would you expect a person to act  differently based on the belief that Jesus is going to return? Experience alone should tell us all that life is fleeting and might end at any time.I can think of a couple times that I could have easily gone "toes up".

There are probably dozens of men over the world who, at this very moment, claim to be the second coming of jesus H christ.  Yet none of the xians I know have even bothered to check any of these guys out. 

 I was under the impression His return would be ' self evident'.



Now, you might say, "those guys obviously are not jhc," and you may or may not be right.  But how do you know without checking it out?  You might also say "those guys don't fit the prophecies," and you may or many not be right.  But I also know that jews do not recognize jesus H as the messiah because he allegedly met the prophecies in ways they did not expect.  At least, that's what xians say.  So, maybe jesus H's second coming will not be quite what xians expect? 

 I would be more inclined to check it out I guess if something like these occurred:

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." —Matthew 24:27

 "Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." —Matthew 24:30

"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." —Matthew 24:31



If I were a xian, I would have to be open to that idea.  Consequently, I would have to check out everyone claiming to be jesus H[1].  Because you never know. And because no xian I have ever met does this, it tells me they do not actually expect jesus H to come back.  They anticipate jesus H not returning.  It tells me they believe in belief, but they do not actually believe their beliefs.
 1. and some of the ones who don't claim it, just to be safe

You can only speculate what you would do as a Christian.I think you would be a great deal different ...as long as we are speculating.

I think running aroung "checking out " all of the guys would be a waste of time.I think Jesus did as well.....

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.


So, stewie, do you check these guys out or are you just another unbelieving believer?

See above.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #131 on: January 26, 2012, 03:18:32 PM »
I was under the impression His return would be ' self evident'.

How much more self-evident could it be when he's[1] literally saying that he's back?
 1. Note the lowercase "h". Learn some grammar, please.
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Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #132 on: January 26, 2012, 03:44:13 PM »
I was under the impression His return would be ' self evident'.

How much more self-evident could it be when he's[1] literally saying that he's back?
 1. Note the lowercase "h". Learn some grammar, please.

 You're saying that Jesus announced that He already returned?
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #133 on: January 26, 2012, 03:52:30 PM »
For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

So, where on this Earth can someone go so far east that the only direction one can go is west?

If something happens in the east of you, it happens in someone else's west.

Is lighting that comes from the east, the only lighting that is visible? ie. if it comes from the west, it's invisible? Just a bunch of ignorant gobeldy-gook jibber-jabber.

"If there was a way for a lighning flash to be visible all the way around the world, that's the way of the coming[1] of the Son of Man.[2]" -- How it should have been written, but they thought the Earth was flat after all.

You're saying that Jesus announced that He already returned?

There are many who have claimed to be Jesus Come Again. You're supposed to believe with child-like faith. So why don't you believe?

Edit: In addendum, TV (and internet) signals travel at the speed of light. That is the "Visible Lighting" he was talking about!
 1. isn't it supposed to be a "return?" If it's his coming, it'll be his FIRST time on Earth. ie. Not Jesus.
 2. I find it funny he calls himself, "Son of Man," when he's supposed to be the "Son of God." Further indication, he's not talking about himself.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 04:00:14 PM by TruthSeeker »

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #134 on: January 26, 2012, 03:57:11 PM »
You're saying that Jesus announced that he already returned?

Dozens of guys claiming to be Jesus at any given moment... One of them might be telling the truth, to test your faith.
Clearly, you have failed.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #135 on: January 26, 2012, 04:05:30 PM »
17)Then Jesus answered him, Blessed (happy, fortunate, and to be envied) are you, Simon Bar-Jonah. For flesh and blood [men] have not revealed this to you, but My Father Who is in heaven.

 I mean ..nuff said don't you think? This is The Messiah!He is the Savior.That would be obvious I should think without saying it specifically.
onesteward,

Every week or so, we read reports, in the newspapers and hear on TV, of people who think they are Jesus/god/Jesus risen again/have been given some message from god to kill a few people, and some are locked up and some are allowed on their way.

It is unfortunate, but the mental institutions are filled with such people; I knew a woman who was quite convinced that she was going to give birth to Jesus; the fact that she was over 55 had no bearing on the matter.

None of us believe they are god/Jesus/got the message. Why do you believe the verse?

« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 05:00:44 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #136 on: January 26, 2012, 04:54:40 PM »
Ah, so, you don't check out the plethora of second coming claims because you are smug and arrogant.  Good answer.

I was under the impression His return would be ' self evident'.

Why?  If it would be self evident, why are signs and portents foretold?  Why the 7 seals?  Revelation could have been so much shorter: "when jesus H comes back, you'll just know it."  But it didn't.  It blathers on for, what, 20, 30 pages? describing in acid detail the weirdest surreal scenes.

I would be more inclined to check it out I guess if something like these occurred:

"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." —Matthew 24:27

What the fuck does that even mean?  It could mean any number of things, some of which neither you nor I have even thought of.  That is why I said:

So, maybe jesus H's second coming will not be quite what xians expect? 

Right?  The old jews thought they knew what their messiah's coming would be like.  You say he came.  They say he didn't.  You say they misunderstood the signs and portents.  So if they did, so could you.  Logically, that tells me you should be wary and ever vigilant for signs of jesus H.  Like, people claiming to be him. 

"Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." —Matthew 24:30

see above.

"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." —Matthew 24:31

see above

You can only speculate what you would do as a Christian.I think you would be a great deal different ...as long as we are speculating.

Nope.  I was a xian.  I know me.  I have known me all my life.  You don't know me.  So I have a better idea of what I might do in a given situation.   You have no idea.  But that whole point is irrelevant.  The point is, you do not expect jesus H to come back.  You do not really believe it.  I know this by your actions.

I think running aroung "checking out " all of the guys would be a waste of time.

That tells me finding jesus H really is not a priority for you.  If it were the number one, most important thing in the world, your top priority, you would leave nary a stone unturned.  Since you have not turned over any stones, I take it this ranks right up in your priorities with catching the latest episode of the Kardashians.

“So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Again, I have no idea what that means.  If you say you do, you're full of shit.  And you are likely to be wrong.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #137 on: January 26, 2012, 08:40:29 PM »
Ah, so, you don't check out the plethora of second coming claims because you are smug and arrogant.  Good answer.

 No , because there would be no point wasting the time.



Why?  If it would be self evident, why are signs and portents foretold?  Why the 7 seals?  Revelation could have been so much shorter: "when jesus H comes back, you'll just know it."  But it didn't.  It blathers on for, what, 20, 30 pages? describing in acid detail the weirdest surreal scenes.

Meaning that He is to be coming in the clouds. I should not expect to have to go find  Him .Doozy of a light show as well.



"For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." —Matthew 24:27

What the fuck does that even mean?  It could mean any number of things, some of which neither you nor I have even thought of.  That is why I said:

I just take it to mean there's gonna be one incredible light show.

So, maybe jesus H's second coming will not be quite what xians expect?

Right?  The old jews thought they knew what their messiah's coming would be like.  You say he came.  They say he didn't.  You say they misunderstood the signs and portents.
Actually many Jews realize they had been mistaken and  got it right now.For example:

http://www.askdrbrown.org/


 So if they did, so could you.  Logically, that tells me you should be wary and ever vigilant for signs of jesus H.  Like, people claiming to be him. 

Sure , I should live as if He will be here any second.The same that I should be living anyway. Whether any second or 500 years - there isn't any difference.


Nope.  I was a xian.  I know me.  I have known me all my life.  You don't know me.  So I have a better idea of what I might do in a given situation.   You have no idea.  But that whole point is irrelevant.  The point is, you do not expect jesus H to come back.  You do not really believe it. I know this by your actions.

 He is coming back, I know it .You are the one who should be in 'panic mode'; which you are starting to come across as.

That tells me finding jesus H really is not a priority for you.
Hello....I'm a Born-Again Christian.I've already found Him.You do understand the term...."Christian" right?


  If it were the number one, most important thing in the world, your top priority, you would leave nary a stone unturned.  Since you have not turned over any stones, I take it this ranks right up in your priorities with catching the latest episode of the Kardashians.

As with many of the things you "take" you are incorrect once more.

Again, I have no idea what that means.  If you say you do, you're full of shit.  And you are likely to be wrong.
Just that it will be unmistakable to a Christian if we are alive when He returns.

You treat the second coming as if my salvation would be at stake somehow.I have no worries Screwtape , when He comes for me He will make sure He gets me.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #138 on: January 26, 2012, 09:56:15 PM »
It never really comes up in conversation. I think xtians really never read it. I do have a Bible Nook version in the phone but the font is sort of awful to read. I read the Gospels if bored, but the disciples are equally dim Monty Python characters every time, only never funny. I almost never get very far with Moses. Ecclesiastes is my only favorite Bible reading.

I did run across Ur in it the other day which was cool. Had to review Ur in Wikipedia.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 09:59:21 PM by Tero »

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #139 on: January 27, 2012, 08:56:31 AM »
My favorite passage in the BuyBull is in Job. It's a long monologue from God to Job. I have an earlier post where I pretty much went line-by-line and analyzed it, but here's the cliff notes:

It's one long bully session in 3 phases.
   1) Appeal to Ignorance. You don't know kind of cookie is in my cookie jar, I'm so much better than you because 'I' know, and I'm not going to tell you, nyaa nyaa!
   2) The Bulk: Cosmology that only works if one believes the Earth is flat. ie. A declaration that the Earth is flat.
   3) "That's why I'm God and you're not, so just shut up and put up."

So whenever anyone tells me that the BuyBull talks of a Perfect All-Knowing God that sent his inerrant book so that I could know that 'he' loves me... that just makes me laugh. Best case: God is just a big bully, who just doesn't give a shit about anyone or anything else but winning against Satan in a bet for just a dollar... oh wait, they didn't even bet a dollar! They fucked with Job over Nothing! Nothing!

Yep, that bastard surely loves me. ... HA HA HA. All hail the latest of 30(?) messiahs that died and rose from the dead. Christianity is basically the Borg of Religion. What they cannot erradicate, they assimilate and claim it as thier own.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #140 on: January 27, 2012, 09:06:09 AM »
It never really comes up in conversation. I think xtians really never read it. I do have a Bible Nook version in the phone but the font is sort of awful to read. I read the Gospels if bored, but the disciples are equally dim Monty Python characters every time, only never funny. I almost never get very far with Moses. Ecclesiastes is my only favorite Bible reading.

Yeah, the Bible is from the Perfect story teller. He makes every author to be only capable of, "See Dick run. See Jane run. See Dick and Jan run, comparatively. Inspiration comes from God. There's just NO way a mortal can possibly write anything that's more engaging that what God has given us! Just read Leviticus! Now, that book, really stim... u.... la... .. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Huh? <snort> anno... where was I?  Oh, right Leviti.... ... <snore>. 

I just cannot handle his perfection. I am in such rebellion, because it took me 5 hours to read one page, because I kept falling asleep. Except when I'm reading it because I want it to put me to sleep. >.>  &)

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #141 on: January 27, 2012, 09:55:22 AM »
My favorite passage in the BuyBull is in Job. It's a long monologue from God to Job. I have an earlier post where I pretty much went line-by-line and analyzed it, but here's the cliff notes:

It's one long bully session in 3 phases.
   1) Appeal to Ignorance. You don't know kind of cookie is in my cookie jar, I'm so much better than you because 'I' know, and I'm not going to tell you, nyaa nyaa!

It actually goes further than that, if I recall correctly... doesn't Yahweh tell Job that there's no way that Job could ever understand why he went thru what he went thru?  And that's a lie, isn't it?  It's actually quite easy to understand why all of that happened to Job -- that is, apparently, the reason that the book was written.

I can't help but wonder how Job would have reacted if Yahweh actually had explained it to him.  "Oh, all the boils and your dead family and everything?  Yeah.  I let Satan do that to you to prove that no matter what I allowed to happen to you, you would always be loyal to me."  If Job had any self-respect, of course, that little revelation would probably destroy whatever loyalty Job had had.
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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #142 on: January 27, 2012, 10:36:42 AM »
And the moral of the story is that you are not supposed to have even that level of self-respect.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #143 on: January 27, 2012, 11:41:05 AM »
No , because there would be no point wasting the time.

That is like saying, I lost my keys, but there is no point in looking for them since looking in all the places where they aren't would be a waste of time.  If you want to find them, you have to spend the time.

You lackadaisical attitude makes baby jesus cry.


Meaning that He is to be coming in the clouds. I should not expect to have to go find  Him .Doozy of a light show as well.

But you could be wrong.  The jews were, after all.


I just take it to mean there's gonna be one incredible light show.

But it could mean any number of things. It could mean jesus H will appear quickly.  Or it could mean he will have thunder around him.  Or it could mean a zillion other things neither you nor I thought of.


Actually many Jews realize they had been mistaken and  got it right now.

You make a really stupid point.  You point to a teeny tiny handful of jews, (out of the ~13 million jews in the world right now), and completely evade the point.  Let me try again, in terms you may understand.

Once upon a time a man named jesus supposedly lived.  He is was alleged to be the hebrew messiah. But almost all the jews living at that time rejected him because they thought he did not meet the requirements.  His PR reps said he did meet the requirements, but that the jews just did not expect them to be met in that way.

Therefore, it is possible when jesus H comes again, it will not be in the way you expect.

Sure , I should live as if He will be here any second.The same that I should be living anyway. Whether any second or 500 years - there isn't any difference.

And yet, you don't.  So what conclusion am I to draw? 

He is coming back, I know it .

You don't know it.  In fact, I say you don't even believe it.  You pay lip service to it, at best.  You are a poser.  You like the superior feeling of self righteousness.  You like thinking you are special.  And who doesn't?  I sure like being special.  The difference is, I actually am special.  You need to borrow someone else's fantasy to feel that way.

You are the one who should be in 'panic mode'; which you are starting to come across as.

Panic mode?  What should I be panicked about?  Hell?  Right.  I'm as panicked about that as I am that Santa will leave coal in my stocking.  Oh noes!  Look out everybody!  We have to love a man who may never have existed or a man no one has ever seen will send you to a place no one can possibly even know exists!

Yeah.  I'm in panic mode alright.

Hello....I'm a Born-Again Christian.I've already found Him. 

You've not found him. You've found a group of people, probably none of whom are actually named jesus, who espouse silly, yet comforting ideas and sing sappy songs.  There is no jesus to find, unless you are talking about Jose's hermano.  If he even existed in the first place, jesus H is dead.

You do understand the term...."Christian" right?

I thought I did, but so many xians have so many ideas of what it means.  The meaning is different depending what flavor xian you talk to. It is all so confusing.

As with many of the things you "take" you are incorrect once more.

All I have to go on is what you tell me. You tell me you don't at least research the many reported jesuses (jesi?), what am I to think but that you don't actually give a rats ass about it?

Just that it will be unmistakable to a Christian if we are alive when He returns.

Well, that's not what it says.  In fact, it specifically says it will be like something else. So, maybe it was jesus H's return, or maybe it was just lighting going from east to west.

I have no worries Screwtape , when He comes for me He will make sure He gets me.

myeah.  I wouldn't be so sure.  If I were jesus H (and for all you know, I am), you'd be a major buzzkill.  I would definitely leave you behind.
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Offline The will of Landru

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #144 on: January 27, 2012, 12:59:49 PM »
I read on another website a little ditty that I thought was incredibly insightful about the New Testament.  You've probably all heard/seen it before, but I haven't.  It goes something like this; the Jews look at the New Testament the way Christians look at the book of Mormon.  I thought that was pretty cool and thought provoking.
Faith is to a christian what sand is to an ostrich.---Unknown
I was at a Borders book store and saw a section titled "Christian Fiction".  I thought to myself, wow, that's kind of redundent.---Unknown