sorry for the length, but this is just such a good bit to show just how Christians mangle their bible to get what they want.
They wouldn't understand what "freedom and liberty" would gain for them except hypothetically?Why did they come here in the first place?
Wow. Slow down, OS, your desperation makes you misread my posts in your race to show how I’m wrong. Yes, as I said, the soldiers in the continental army were only working on hoping that the freedom and liberty promised them by the continental congress would be as good as they hoped. They were living under a repressive rule by the British, you know the reason that there was a revolution?
Many of them were born into that situation, as the descendants of colonists for other powers. Remember, there had been Caucasians in the Americas for at least several *centuries* before the rebellion. They came for wealth, to spread their religion and to get ability to practice their religion as they wanted (of course while trying to prevent others from having the same ability). I suggest you familiarize yourself with the history of the US. A good place to start is here: http://www.smithsonianmag.com/history-archaeology/God-Government-and-Roger-Williams-Big-Idea.html
Do you think right now, as we communicate, there aren't forces at work around the world working diligently to deny us our freedom and liberty?
Yep, there are. So? What does this have to do with this discussion and your baseless claims?
Our military personnel have constantly had to risk everything for liberty and freedom, both of which have very concrete benefits. They’ve even risked it for others to enjoy the same things. Peal Harbor, the missile crisis (my dad was in during that, manning a Nike-Zeus missile site, sure he would be vaporized soon), all demanding good men and women who did their jobs.
I would have to assume by " everything" that might include :
Luke 18 :
29) “Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children ....
The men and women in the military who " sacrificed all" in Iraq understood loyalty and commitment and they weren't drafted.They did leave behind all of the things listed in Luke.Christians, whether you like it or not, feel as strongly and have for nearly 2000 years, about service to their King.They sacrifice their own well being every day for the sake of others.Prison, torture and death in many cases.
ROFL. Oh my. First, I see you can’t support your strawman you used and that I called you on. Nice attempt to try to ignore that you’ve been caught lying about me. It’s a shame you can’t quite remember this is a medium that doesn’t vanish when you want it to.
You seem to be also unable to see that JC is not saying come with me for a tour of duty and then you can go back. If you do think this is what he’s saying, support it. I have yet to see a Christian leave their family, their work, etc even as much as the soldiers do. Please do show me where they do, OS. Yes, we do have a few missionaries who do as you say. We also have just as many Muslims, Hindu, atheists, etc who do the exact same, who do good by their fellow man for their own reasons. But millions of Christians *don’t*. Are the only real Christians those who actually do sacrifice something?
And again, you ignore that you’ve lied about me not understanding loyalty and commitment. How nice.
The other point I think needing to be made here is that the scriptures you used for your point don't even say what you propose that they do say.They aren't commands.Explanations of peoples rewards for choosing to make sacrifices seems to me how they read.
And more claims with no evidence to support them. Waving your and screaming “no they don’t, no they don’t” with no evidence of this is rather amusing but worthless. I just see one more Christian whose interpretation is just one more in a big pile to excuse himself from doing what his supposed savior required. A command is saying “do this”. You should refresh yourself in grammar. We see JC giving commands, saying “do this” to achieve salvation, repeatedly.
“Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” – Luke 18
“21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” – Matthew 19
“43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” – Matthew 5
and I could go on.
Exactly...for something they believed in.If your Dad was vaporized I guess that may have qualified as having "left everything".
Then the real bummer, as a Christian man, you did say your parents were Christians as I recall, he would have come home from the strain of being almost vaporized, only to think he was to pack up and " leave everything for Jesus "? Did he leave? Your mom , did she go and leave you to fend for yourself like you claim The Bible says she must?
yes, my father at the Nike Zeus site, my brother in GW 1, all served because they believed in something, or they wanted the experience, needed a job, etc. And as you’ve noted so very well, most Christians don’t do what your supposed savior has said is required. It’s also very nice too that you’ve shown so well that the military doesn’t require people to love it more than their families, or to leave their wife forever or their jobs, or their children. They can come back. Again, where does it say the apostles can come back and still have their magic presents? Oh yes, it doesn’t. It’s only after JC dies and doesn’t come back as promised to bring his kingdom that the story changes. We have Paul rewriting the religion to excuse this failure. We have where Christians need to work since it’s more than obvious that God will not take care of them like the birds of the air or the lilies of the field.
Just that nothing we have in the US came without rancor and bloodshed.I didn't think it was about 'potluck suppers'.If that's what you mean I have indeed been to picnics and such that were secular and without rancor and bloodshed.Well, at least the ones where they didn't serve alcohol.
Ah, I think I understand. Yes, our freedoms are bought with blood. We initially had to fight against those who thought kings had a divine right from a god. We had various sects of Christians harming each other for not being the right kind of Christian. And we had them harming the natives because their religion said that anyone who didn’t believe like them was evil. Then we had a group of men who realized the harm religion, especially associated with the state, can do and who created a constitution that intentionally restricted this involvement. This is my point, that religion has no concrete benefits like liberty and freedom do, none that can’t just as easily be enjoyed without the hatred and intolerance that religion engenders.
Which you fabricated from Scriptures that don't say it is a "requirement".
False, I have fabricated nothing.. I have supported that it is a requirement with your own bible’s verses. Read the verses I posted above. Do you want to be come perfect and get your magic presents or not?
I’ll even add one more bit: “25 Large crowds were traveling with Jesus, and turning to them he said: 26 “If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters—yes, even their own life—such a person cannot be my disciple. 27 And whoever does not carry their cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.” – Luke 14
Please do show me where the military says you have to hate your family and your life.
They risk their lives.
No, OS, *some* risk their lives, and non-Christians do the same. Where do you risk your life as a soldier does, OS? Surely you can tell me.
You never grew up in a Christian household? Your parents split up and hit the mission field? What exceptions are you looking for?Your parents sold 'everything" and gave it to the poor? Maybe they understood better than you what the Bible says.Is that why you are mad at God? He asked more of you than you thought you should have to give?
Not talking about a Christian household since we both know that Christians pick and choose what they follow. I’m talking about your bible. And ah, now we have one more lie told by a Christian about an atheist. Sorry, OS, but no, I’m not “angry at God”. I know you really really hope I am but I’m not. I am no more angry at this god than I’m at Mars or Odin or Tezcatlipoca. And hmm, now Christians should give up their family, wealth, etc? (see bolded) Which is it now, OS? Does your god ask you to give up things or not? And again, where in the bible says that there are exceptionsn to being “perfect”?
Because Velkyn you seem to think you can be a Christian without God, The Holy Spirit, Jesus ..God's Son or the Bible.I can say and believe that Jesus is the Messiah who has come in the flesh...can you?
Sorry, you fail again. I never said you could be a Christian without the belief in God, the HS or the bible or Jesus. Again, your argument depends on you proving that your god exists and it’s not just a belief. Can you prove this? Can you even show the slightest bit of actual evidence? I once said that Jesus is the messiah who came in the flesh, when I believed, just like you do now. Show me that you don’t simply believe like I did. I’ve asked and asked and you’ve failed to produce anything.
There are still 10s of millions of believers in Tezcatlipoca being added annually like Christianity?Did Tez bring back the Aztecs like God restored the Nation Israel?Is he planning to ,you think?
Aw, a logical fallacy just as expected, namely the appeal to popularity. So, OS, does this mean that as soon as there are more Muslims than Christians, they’ll have the one true religion? How about the Scientologists? I don’t see a restored Israel at all. Please do define how it was supposedly restored. Why are there various sects of Judaism that don’t agree? Why are there Jews living all over the world? Why is modern Israel not the same land as archaeological evidence shows as Israel was supposedly?
Or like in your own case here, invent stuff that isn't there to try and make The Bible look bad.You really see a command in this Scripture?
And more baseless claims of course with nothing to support the accusations. Please do show how I “invented” anything that is not supportable in your bible.
Matthew 19:29 Mark 10:29 Luke 18: 29
cut to save space. Not in this one but take a look at the verses I quoted in this post. Luke 14, Luke 18, Matthew 19 (Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”) See, I can read the *whole* bible and know how commands are written, OS and not try to depend on quote mining to give me an answer I want. That’s so cute to see done to the bible. Usually Christians try to do that to scientists.