Author Topic: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible  (Read 8534 times)

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Offline Nam

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Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« on: December 15, 2011, 02:21:53 PM »
I thought of this while commenting in another topic about "signs of Christians who haven't read their Bible" and I thought that, wouldn't it be fun if we just posted comments that people have made to us or others about how we know they haven't read their Bible based on something that they have said, or even the way they practice being a Christian?

I bring up the fact that many of them who join this website shouldn't be conversing with us in the first place, it says so in their Bible yet they either ignore that (if they read it) or it's obvious they've never read it.  They are only supposed to be converting their own kind.

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
Quote
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:14 (NLV)
Quote
Do not be joined together with those who do not belong to Christ. How can that which is good get along with that which is bad? How can light be in the same place with darkness?

My favorite rewrite of that verse:

2 Corinthians 6:14 (The Message)
Quote
Don't become partners with those who reject God. How can you make a partnership out of right and wrong? That's not partnership; that's war. Is light best friends with dark? Does Christ go strolling with the Devil? Do trust and mistrust hold hands? Who would think of setting up pagan idols in God's holy Temple? But that is exactly what we are, each of us a temple in whom God lives. God himself put it this way:

   "I'll live in them, move into them;
      I'll be their God and they'll be my people.
   So leave the corruption and compromise;
      leave it for good," says God.
   "Don't link up with those who will pollute you.
      I want you all for myself.
   I'll be a Father to you;
      you'll be sons and daughters to me."
   The Word of the Master, God.

I love The Message -- really, if anyone hasn't read that version, please do, it's the most interesting version I've read of the Bible.

-So, what do you got?

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Irish

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2011, 02:32:41 PM »
One I can immediately think of goes something like this:

Christian: Psalm 14:1, "The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God."

Non-Christian/atheist: Matthew 5:22, "...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Christian: [silence]
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline Nam

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2011, 02:33:10 PM »
LOL! I like that one.

-Nam
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2011, 02:41:53 PM »
oh the whole "rich young man" story.  To be with JC you have to give up all you have, follow the commandments and then yuo can come be with him.  Chrisitans go out of their way to say "it doesn't mean me", even though in the verses following it, the apostles affirm what is said by JC as applying to all of believers.

there's just so much to choose from.
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Offline Irish

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2011, 03:06:48 PM »
And one of my other favorites is your signature, Nam.
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2011, 04:12:13 PM »
I thought of this while commenting in another topic about "signs of Christians who haven't read their Bible" and I thought that, wouldn't it be fun if we just posted comments that people have made to us or others about how we know they haven't read their Bible based on something that they have said, or even the way they practice being a Christian?

I bring up the fact that many of them who join this website shouldn't be conversing with us in the first place, it says so in their Bible yet they either ignore that (if they read it) or it's obvious they've never read it.  They are only supposed to be converting their own kind.
Quote
2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

 According to the Scriptures you used, wouldn't a Christian's " own kind" already be converted? 

If that verse means we can't even associate with unbelievers  wouldn't that leave only believers for us to associate with?

 

2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV)
Quote
Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:14 (NLV)
Quote
Do not be joined together with those who do not belong to Christ. How can that which is good get along with that which is bad? How can light be in the same place with darkness?

My favorite rewrite of that verse:

2 Corinthians 6:14 (The Message)
Quote
Don't become partners with those who reject God. How can you make a partnership out of right and wrong? That's not partnership; that's war. Is light best friends with dark? Does Christ go strolling with the Devil? Do trust and mistrust hold hands? Who would think of setting up pagan idols in God's holy Temple? But that is exactly what we are, each of us a temple in whom God lives. God himself put it this way:

   "I'll live in them, move into them;
      I'll be their God and they'll be my people.
   So leave the corruption and compromise;
      leave it for good," says God.
   "Don't link up with those who will pollute you.
      I want you all for myself.
   I'll be a Father to you;
      you'll be sons and daughters to me."
   The Word of the Master, God.

I love The Message -- really, if anyone hasn't read that version, please do, it's the most interesting version I've read of the Bible.

-So, what do you got?

-Nam
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Nam

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2011, 02:37:50 PM »
Quote from: Irish Reply #4 on: December 15, 2011, 03:06:48 PM
And one of my other favorites is your signature, Nam.

Oh, yeah:

Quote
Christian: Jesus is a man of peace!
Jesus speaks (Matthew 10:34)
Jesus: I come not to bring peace but a sword.
Christian: D'oh!

;)

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Nam

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2011, 02:43:44 PM »
Quote from: onesteward Reply #5 on: December 15, 2011, 04:12:13 PM
According to the Scriptures you used, wouldn't a Christian's " own kind" already be converted? 

If that verse means we can't even associate with unbelievers  wouldn't that leave only believers for us to associate with?

Do all Christians believe exactly what other Christians believe in?  And, since that verse is designated to the Hebrews of the time, then did all Hebrews of the time believe in everything that other groups of Hebrews believed?  Wouldn't they or one need to convert them to their particular belief system?

There are over 38,000+ different sects of Protestant Christianity.  There are many, perhaps about 100 (or so) sects of Catholicism, why isn't there just one?  There was just one, for a long time, Roman Catholicism but people didn't like them very much, and thought they were diluting the Bible, or something, and so they branched off, many of them were massacred by the Roman Catholics but some of them survived, and now, today, you have 10's of thousands of them.  Individual groups.

So, before Christians as a whole try to convert the non-believers shouldn't they all get their ducks in a row and have 1 whole religion, don't you think?  Of course not.  Since they all believe in the basic things then it's okay that they exist, right?  Please....

Despite your personal opinion about what you think on the subject matters not: that's what the Bible says: you can't converse with those not like you for you bring sin and darkness into your world.  According to your precious Bible: you're doing that now.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2011, 03:34:35 PM »
oh the whole "rich young man" story.  To be with JC you have to give up all you have, follow the commandments and then yuo can come be with him.  Chrisitans go out of their way to say "it doesn't mean me", even though in the verses following it, the apostles affirm what is said by JC as applying to all of believers.

 It is for everyone who believes....everything must go?You don't think that may be a tad hyper-literalist?


there's just so much to choose from.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2011, 04:24:58 PM »
It is for everyone who believes....everything must go?You don't think that may be a tad hyper-literalist?

HAHA! Yeah... Give up all your possessions?  No thanks, too literalist.  Cut off a piece of your FUCKING COCK?  Sure, pass the knife. That's not hyper-literalist at all.

It's all so fucking stupid.  You people are just nuts. 



Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 05:36:33 PM »
It is for everyone who believes....everything must go?You don't think that may be a tad hyper-literalist?

HAHA! Yeah... Give up all your possessions?  No thanks, too literalist.  Cut off a piece of your FUCKING COCK?  Sure, pass the knife. That's not hyper-literalist at all.

It's all so fucking stupid.  You people are just nuts.

 The point being the admonition to the " rich young ruler"is not a universal command to every believer.Read about believers ' giving' to help the Church in Jerusalem.and so forth and so on and on and on and on........giving from what they would obviously have had- and on and on.......
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2011, 07:03:54 PM »

Do all Christians believe exactly what other Christians believe in?  And, since that verse is designated to the Hebrews of the time, then did all Hebrews of the time believe in everything that other groups of Hebrews believed?  Wouldn't they or one need to convert them to their particular belief system?

There are over 38,000+ different sects of Protestant Christianity.  There are many, perhaps about 100 (or so) sects of Catholicism, why isn't there just one?  There was just one, for a long time, Roman Catholicism but people didn't like them very much, and thought they were diluting the Bible, or something, and so they branched off, many of them were massacred by the Roman Catholics but some of them survived, and now, today, you have 10's of thousands of them.  Individual groups.

So, before Christians as a whole try to convert the non-believers shouldn't they all get their ducks in a row and have 1 whole religion, don't you think?  Of course not.  Since they all believe in the basic things then it's okay that they exist, right?  Please....

Despite your personal opinion about what you think on the subject matters not: that's what the Bible says: you can't converse with those not like you for you bring sin and darkness into your world.  According to your precious Bible: you're doing that now.

-Nam
From The Message,

Then why would Paul say this to the Corinthians:

 25-28With that as a base to work from, common sense can take you the rest of the way. Eat anything sold at the butcher shop, for instance; you don't have to run an "idolatry test" on every item. "The earth," after all, "is God's, and everything in it." That "everything" certainly includes the leg of lamb in the butcher shop. If a nonbeliever invites you to dinner and you feel like going, go ahead and enjoy yourself; eat everything placed before you. It would be both bad manners and bad spirituality to cross-examine your host on the ethical purity of each course as it is served. On the other hand, if he goes out of his way to tell you that this or that was sacrificed to god or goddess so-and-so, you should pass. Even though you may be indifferent as to where it came from, he isn't, and you don't want to send mixed messages to him about who you are worshiping

The Message isn't my usual Bible to read but you seemed to enjoy it.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline kcrady

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2011, 05:10:29 AM »
Here's one of my all-time favorites, Ezekiel 23:19-20:

Quote
Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt.  There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. (NIV)

Can't wait to see 'em preach that one in Sunday School!
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Offline Emily

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2011, 05:38:08 AM »
^^ Whoa, that's hot. That's obviously a metaphor for something but I just can't put my finger on it.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2011, 05:41:32 AM »
^^ Whoa, that's hot. That's obviously a metaphor for something but I just can't put my finger on it.

I'm pretty sure it's saying "Women should all move to Egypt".
I'd move there too, but the Bible has this thing against guys having sex with each other that makes me sad. :(
Edit: Hang on, how can we be sure that "emission" isn't like a car's CO2 emission[1]?
 1. Gas, not liquid.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 05:48:57 AM by Lucifer »
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Offline kcrady

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2011, 06:46:21 AM »
^^ Whoa, that's hot. That's obviously a metaphor for something but I just can't put my finger on it.

Well, you could put your finger on it, but if you did, Yahweh would not be pleased.  The Egyptian on the other hand...  :laugh:
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2011, 10:29:17 AM »
oh the whole "rich young man" story.  To be with JC you have to give up all you have, follow the commandments and then yuo can come be with him.  Chrisitans go out of their way to say "it doesn't mean me", even though in the verses following it, the apostles affirm what is said by JC as applying to all of believers.
It is for everyone who believes....everything must go?You don't think that may be a tad hyper-literalist?
there's just so much to choose from.

Obviously, no, I don’t think it is “hyperliteralist”.  Here we go with the showing of magic decoder rings.   Yes, it certainly seems that everything must go.  We have your suppsoed savior saying that oen should trust in this god to supply everything.  We have him saying that one should give up all one's belongings and ones family to follow him.  No, "you only have to give up a little".  It's all or nothing.  Since I've actually read the bible, I'd suggest that you do to.  Let's look at what the rich youg man story says:
Quote
20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
 27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
  we have this.  We have JC saying that god will take care of those who follow him.  We have JC saying to the believers that they should take nothing with them when spreading his word, not even a spare shirt.  He says not to put up earthly wealth.  We have JC lauding the trust that people had in him. Not so much if you think you have to take care of yourself with savings, insurance, etc now is it?  A lot of Christians want to claim that their god said “god helps those who help themselves” but that’s not once said or even alluded to by their supposed savior.   
and hmmm, hyperliteral?  So, is it "hyperliteral" to declare that there was a man/god that was excuted and then rose from the dead to hold all of the "sins" of humanity?  Golly, that sounds silly.  It mustn't be literal at all.  And that creation where man "fell", also pretty "hyperliteral" if you think that's true too.   Not to mention the "flood", the "exodus", the tower of babel, all silly and pretty amusing to take literally, don't yuo agree?

again, we have Christians all differing on what to take literally and what to take as metaphor.  OS, you need to show how your version is the only right one.  Right after you show that your god exists at all, of course.

 




20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
 27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 10:40:02 AM »

Then why would Paul say this to the Corinthians:

 25-28With that as a base to work from, common sense can take you the rest of the way. Eat anything sold at the butcher shop, for instance; you don't have to run an "idolatry test" on every item. "The earth," after all, "is God's, and everything in it." That "everything" certainly includes the leg of lamb in the butcher shop. If a nonbeliever invites you to dinner and you feel like going, go ahead and enjoy yourself; eat everything placed before you. It would be both bad manners and bad spirituality to cross-examine your host on the ethical purity of each course as it is served. On the other hand, if he goes out of his way to tell you that this or that was sacrificed to god or goddess so-and-so, you should pass. Even though you may be indifferent as to where it came from, he isn't, and you don't want to send mixed messages to him about who you are worshiping

The Message isn't my usual Bible to read but you seemed to enjoy it.
it is a question on why Paul would say things that contradict.  Could it be that your book is flawed and human? 

Quote
23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.
 25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”
 27 If an unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the one who told you and for the sake of conscience. 29 I am referring to the other person’s conscience, not yours. For why is my freedom being judged by another’s conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everyone in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.
   Then we have this:
Quote
2 Cor 6: 14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
   “I will live with them  and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 Therefore, “Come out from them and be separate, says the Lord. Touch no unclean thing,  and I will receive you.” 18 And, “I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.”  2 Cor 7: 2 Corinthians 7 1 Therefore, since we have these promises, dear friends, let us purify ourselves from everything that contaminates body and spirit, perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.
Which is it then, is it that everything on earth is god’s and can be used as you will or are there things that “contaminate” the body and spirit, these “unclean” things?  Paul can’t seem to make up his mind.
 


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Offline Nam

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 11:14:23 AM »
onesteward,

You shot yourself in the foot when you used "The Message" as your guide in arguing with me.  That version of the Bible is so diluted and far from what any of the other versions (including NIV and KJV, even NKJV) state about almost every verse in it, that it's a joke upon itself.  It's written in a way to either speak to children, or it just thinks that everyone has a child's mind, and speaks to adults as if they're children.  It's a laugh all on itself, and in my opinion, insults those who follow the Bible -- are you honestly telling me that you follow "The Message"? 

Also, even if that is true: you're taking one verse and putting it up against another verse that contradicts itself in the "message", even if the verse you use is the same in every other Bible, or similar enough to where it's even remotely useful, there's still that contradiction -- now, being in two different books, and still a contradiction, one can disregard the contradiction, and make it an inconsistency.  It still doesn't fit.

Try again.

-Nam
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 11:17:22 AM by Nam »
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2011, 07:23:25 PM »
It is for everyone who believes....everything must go?You don't think that may be a tad hyper-literalist?

Obviously, no, I don’t think it is “hyperliteralist”.  Here we go with the showing of magic decoder rings.   Yes, it certainly seems that everything must go.  We have your suppsoed savior saying that oen should trust in this god to supply everything.  We have him saying that one should give up all one's belongings and ones family to follow him.

Are you saying that because of this:?

29) And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.




 No, "you only have to give up a little".  It's all or nothing.  Since I've actually read the bible, I'd suggest that you do to

Oh that's right...back in your  Christian  days.Is that what you mean?



  Let's look at what the rich youg man story says:  20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”
 21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”
 22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
 23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”
 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
 26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

 That is about "the rich" don't you think?It only refers to them as written , anyway.What about  Zacchaeus.He was rich .Why did he get a deal?


 27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 This seems to be specific to the "12".

 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.   we have this.  We have JC saying that god will take care of those who follow him.  We have JC saying to the believers that they should take nothing with them when spreading his word, not even a spare shirt.

He didn't get your memo I guess. A spare shirt sound like they already ...have a shirt . According to you that should have been sold, right? Everything , correct.?


  He says not to put up earthly wealth.  We have JC lauding the trust that people had in him. Not so much if you think you have to take care of yourself with savings, insurance, etc now is it?
You can't "trust" and have a checking account?Insurances might be mandated.
 So then, do you think Paul showed a lack of Faith because he continued at times to work as a tentmaker? Somebody, somewhere was working or had money to support ministry.To think otherwise seems to be ludicrous according to my  limited Scripture reading.

 A lot of Christians want to claim that their god said “god helps those who help themselves” but that’s not once said or even alluded to by their supposed savior. 
Really a lot of em want to claim that? You'd be surprised at what I've heard people claim lately...oy vay!!
 

and hmmm, hyperliteral?  So, is it "hyperliteral" to declare that there was a man/god that was excuted and then rose from the dead to hold all of the "sins" of humanity?  Golly, that sounds silly.  It mustn't be literal at all.  And that creation where man "fell", also pretty "hyperliteral" if you think that's true too.   Not to mention the "flood", the "exodus", the tower of babel, all silly and pretty amusing to take literally, don't yuo agree?

I don't understand the " holding sins" thing but basically ...no I don't agree.

again, we have Christians all differing on what to take literally and what to take as metaphor.  OS, you need to show how your version is the only right one.  Right after you show that your god exists at all, of course.

All differing? Where are all Christians differing? Did you point that universal out in the post somewhere?Every commentary I looked at differs with you but agrees with each other.

 




When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2011, 07:29:00 PM »
My favorite rewrite of that verse:
2 Corinthians 6:14 (The Message)
Quote
Don't become partners with those who reject God. How can you make a partnership out of right and wrong? That's not partnership; that's war. Is light best friends with dark? Does Christ go strolling with the Devil? Do trust and mistrust hold hands? Who would think of setting up pagan idols in God's holy Temple? But that is exactly what we are, each of us a temple in whom God lives. God himself put it this way:

   "I'll live in them, move into them;
      I'll be their God and they'll be my people.
   So leave the corruption and compromise;
      leave it for good," says God.
   "Don't link up with those who will pollute you.
      I want you all for myself.
   I'll be a Father to you;
      you'll be sons and daughters to me."
   The Word of the Master, God.

I love The Message -- really, if anyone hasn't read that version, please do, it's the most interesting version I've read of the Bible.   -So, what do you got?

-Nam

What I got is you saying you like The Message...no you love the Message It was all for you Nam.But ok,I'll try again.
When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2011, 12:10:46 AM »
A couple of days ago I was in my public library.  A large book was lying on one of the tables. Librarians prefer that reference books be left on tables so that they can re file them in the stacks correctly. The book was titled; The Comparitive Bible.  It compares entries from four different popular bibles, KJV, NIV, etc. Two entries are on the left page and two on the right page. The entries are easy to compare with that kind of layout.

I opened the book at random and read all four versions of the same chapter and verses. Not a damned one of them agreed with the others. Similar but different. Naturally I'd have to ask my minister which one of them was the true word of god. If I ask more than one minister (different denominations) I'll get more than one answer.

Yea verily I say unto you; "what we have here is a failure to communicate"  Never mind. That last line is from an old movie that starred Paul Newman as a prisoner in a deep south chain gang.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2011, 10:11:17 AM »
Are you saying that because of this:?
29) And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Gee, do you think so since I *bolded* that verse?  &)

Rather than ask a question that is this ridiculous, how about explaining why you think I’m wrong, OS?  Tell me why this doesn’t mean what it says literally
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Oh that's right...back in your  Christian  days.Is that what you mean?
  Poor OS, still can’t show that he’s any better a Christian than I was when I was a Christian but has to try to cast doubt on the fact that I was.  I’ve read the bible at least twice completely, once as a believer and once as not and probably more than that piece by piece.  Have you read it, OS?  Many Christians haven’t.  But one would think they would since this is the only indication that their god even *might* have existed.  Unfortunately, nothing else supports that conclusion.
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That is about "the rich" don't you think?It only refers to them as written , anyway.What about  Zacchaeus.He was rich .Why did he get a deal?
One of my favorite bible school songs.  “Zacchaeus was a wee little man…”.    Well, let’s look at the words again. Rather than post this again since it’s so long, I’ll just post a link so everyone can see it and read at their leisure: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2019&version=NIV

We have a man who asks what good thing must he do to get eternal life.  JC replies that he’s not the source of good, only the “One” is aka God.  God has given the commandments and they should be followed.  Are you arguing that no one else has to follow the commandments, OS?  Many Christians want it to only be these commandments, literally mentioned by JC, though this doesn’t work so well since JC said that all of the commandments come down to “love your neighbor as yourself” and of course love god (Matthew 22), with the additional recommendation that one loves one’s enemies to be perfect as God is perfect (Matthew 5).
JC also says give up all you have, sell your possessions and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven. And he finishes “then, come follow me.”   This is repeated as a thing to do by the apostles when they say that they have done exactly what JC said to do (chapter 19, verse 25).  JC replies by telling them that they will indeed get the eternal life that the wealthy man was asking for.  They did all of what he said to do so they get the reward he promised. 
Earlier in Matthew JC also expounds on this idea of that worldly attachments are to be refused
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Matthew 6:19 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. 20 But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
   and goes on to tell his followers to not worry about clothes or food, etc but that to trust in god to take care of them.  We also have in Matthew that one should also not love one’s family more than JC. 
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Mathew 10:  37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it.
It tracks very well with the messages in the rest of the book e.g. the context. Leave your family and follow JC. He’s more important.  The same message is repeated again and again and not only to the “rich”. 
As for Zacchaeus, he’s mentioned in Luke (chapter 19, one of my favorites with that great parable of the minas) . And yes he does get a deal, a tax collector that says he’ll give *half* of his belongings and if he’s cheated someone, will pay them back 4 times the amount.  JC says he’s saved!  It is a strange thing, that just in the chapter preceding, JC doesn’t think this is enough: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke%2018&version=NIV
I’ll have to thank you, OS, for showing one more contradiction in your bible.  Was JC lying before or now to Zacchaeus? 
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This seems to be specific to the "12".
  well, golly, this part is. :D And the next?
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He didn't get your memo I guess. A spare shirt sound like they already ...have a shirt . According to you that should have been sold, right? Everything , correct.?
I love it, OS.  You now want to create a strawman, how cute.  Ooooh, they have a shirt, and this means that they didn’t sell *everything*, so JC didn’t mean it really and for true.  :D  Oh noes, we’ll have nekkid apostles!  Your JC isn’t quite so silly as you or as you’d try to claim I was.
Considering how much your god needs people covered up, yep, we need those shirts.  We have these verses that say that *everyone* who leaves their family, their livelihood and their homes will benefit, just like the disciples who have done exactly that, they will get the gift of eternal life, just like the wealthy man was asking for.  So, to get eternal life, have you given up your family, your livelihood and your home, OS?
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You can't "trust" and have a checking account?Insurances might be mandated.
 So then, do you think Paul showed a lack of Faith because he continued at times to work as a tentmaker? Somebody, somewhere was working or had money to support ministry.To think otherwise seems to be ludicrous according to my  limited Scripture reading.
This is even better!  Now you seem to be hiding behind the gov’t in that oh,it’s not my fault I don’t trust my god, it’s the gov’t forcing me.  :D  And I would say, yep, you can’t have a checking account, or a savings account or insurance per your supposed savior.  He says have faith that god will take care of you no matter what, do not put up treasures on earth for they get between you and this faith, etc.

And yep, I do find Paul pretty amusing for his ignoring of this supposed savior. Per JC, he should have never had to have worked while spreading the “good news”.  But he was certainly stuck.  JC was preaching for an immanent return of God and that never happened. Paul had to revamp a religion to excuse this failure.  We have these post-JC Christians so concerned about money that people are killed for keeping some back for themselves (Acts 5).  In the “gospels” no one needed to support the ministry at least that’s what they’d have you think.  They went out with nothing, no money, not a bag for traveling, etc (oh yes, except their shirts and belts – Matthew 10 ;) ) and trusted god to provide.  What’s amusing about this is that in Luke 8, to free the men from having to sully themselves with earning a wage, they had to depend on women to support them.  Lovely bit of hypocrisy there.  Sounds like some hippie communes I’ve read about.

I’m sure it does seem ludicrous to your indeed “limited Scripture reading”. 
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Really a lot of em want to claim that? You'd be surprised at what I've heard people claim lately...oy vay!!
that’s the excuse to have bank accounts, insurance, a nice car, 401K plans, etc.  Seems that you’re using it too.  It comes down to the “god wants me to have…” excuse, where unsurprisingly god agrees with the human’s desires.  And yep, people make lots of baseless claims.  I see many of them on this forum.  And I see the claimants unable to support their nonsense.  Like you.
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I don't understand the " holding sins" thing but basically ...no I don't agree.
Oh, OS, I love how you fixate on one word as if it will save you.  Your bible does say that your JC was the receptacle for all of humanity’s sins (e.g. took on everyone’s sins)  so we could be redeemed, yes? And of course you don’t think it’s hyperliteral to claim that magic happened with no evidence as long as it’s a part that you want to believe really happened. You, like all Christians, create your own religions by deciding what is literal and what is metaphor according to your own opinions.  Of course, all of you claim that what you say is what this god “really” meant, but never have any evidence of this. 
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All differing? Where are all Christians differing? Did you point that universal out in the post somewhere?Every commentary I looked at differs with you but agrees with each other.
  Yes, OS, all differing in what they claim that the bible “really” says and what their god “really” wants.  Ah, the usual desperate attempts to delay the inevitable.  You really should read more and not solely depend on your willful ignorance.  It fails every time. We have Christians who are sure that the creation myth is just a metaphor and some who think it is literal.  We have Christians who think the flood myth is just a metaphor and some who think it is literal.  We have Christians who think that God will save everyone eventually, Christians who think there is a literal fiery hell, Christians who think hell is only a “separation” from this god, etc.  We have Christians who are sure only certain people will be saved and only if you do things a certain way per their sect.  We have Christians who believe that only grace will work and Christians who think that any good person is perfectly fine with this god. 

Now, I’m pretty sure that this will simply end up in you claiming that those people who disagree with you aren’t TrueChristianstm.  And I’ll have to ask you again, please do show me how I can tell you are this TrueChristiantm and again how you can show that you were any different then me when I was a Christian.   Oh and evidence that your god exists at all please.   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2011, 11:52:58 AM »
The quote below got me to thinking about just how Biblically illiterate Christianity really is. So I decided to use it to raise an issue that gets ignored, yet is at the very heart of Christianity.

oh the whole "rich young man" story. 

Quote
18 Then a certain ruler asked him: 'Good teacher; What must I do to inherit age-long life?'
19 And Jesus asked him: 'Why do you call me good? No one is good except One… The God! 20 You know the Commandments: Don't commit adultery, don't murder, don't steal, don't provide false testimony, honor your father and mother.'
21 Then [the ruler] said, 'I've guarded these [things] since I was young!'
22 And Jesus said, 'But there's still one thing that you lack. Sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you'll have treasures in heaven. Then come be my follower.'
23 Well, when he heard this, [the ruler] became very sad, because he was extremely rich.
24 So Jesus looked at him and said,
'How hard it will be for those who are rich,
To make their way to the Kingdom of God!
25 It would be easier to thread a rope through a needle,
Than for a rich man to enter God's Kingdom.'
26 Well, those who heard this asked, 'So then; Who can possibly be saved?'
27 And he answered, 'Things that are impossible for men are possible with God.'
28 But Peter said, 'Look, we've left everything and followed you!'
29 And [Jesus] said to them, 'I tell you the truth;
There is no one who's left a house or a wife,
Or brothers, parents, or children,
For the sake of the Kingdom of God,
30 Who won't receive much more in this time,
And life in the age that is coming.'

To be with JC you have to give up all you have, follow the commandments and then yuo can come be with him.  Chrisitans go out of their way to say "it doesn't mean me", even though in the verses following it, the apostles affirm what is said by JC as applying to all of believers.


 
1st, notice what the rich youngster asked Jesus: 'Good teacher; What must I do to inherit age-long life?'
Jesus' answer was "You know the Commandments" (same answer given in chp 10:26-28 BTW)
 - So we have another cat asking Jesus what he needed to do to inherit life (nothing was mentioned about going to Heaven or being with Jesus), and Jesus answering that question with a love God wholeheartedly and love your neighbor as yourself, honor God and keep the commandments kinda answer. Verse 21 gets here with the young fella sticking his chest out and basically saying "I got all that down." At that point, Jesus brings up Heaven and the need to follow him in order to have treasure in Heaven.

Why bother pointing this out you ask? Simply because it's helpful to understand that the promise of everlasting life and the promise of Heaven and a place/position within Jesus' Kingdom were NOT one and the same as is taught by churches. It can even be argued that the promise of Heaven was one made only by Jesus to his contemporary generation as we do not find it in the OT and Jesus' and his disciples all taught that Jesus' words would be fulfilled within their generation's lifespan. What all this likely means is that the idea that there could be modern Christians that are just the same as the folks in the generation to whom Jesus is said to have addressed in the 1st century is in a real way, not possible and an illogical pipe dream. According to the very texts that post 1st century Christianity has been founded upon, the Christian community should have been taken away by its founder about 1960 some odd years, ago leaving this world Christianless! So in a real sense Christians are right when they "go out of their way to say 'it doesn't mean me'," because frankly, it DID not and neither does/did the promise of Heaven of a position in the Kingdom of Heaven.


Just to be sure I am making myself clear:
-----
THERE ARE NO SUCH PEOPLE LIVING TODAY THAT ARE TRUE CHRISTIANS. Anyone claiming otherwise is either being extremely dishonest or is ignorant to what is written in the scriptures on the subject.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 12:14:36 PM by Truth OT »

Offline Nam

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2011, 01:05:44 PM »
Quote from: onesteward
What I got is you saying you like The Message...no you love the Message It was all for you Nam.But ok,I'll try again.

Yeah, I love it for it's idiocy.  It not only insults itself but Christians as well in the simple-minded idiocy of it all and I find that funny.  But, at least it's probably more truthful in its opinion or interpretation than most other books of its accord.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline onesteward

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2011, 02:38:26 PM »
Gee, do you think so since I *bolded* that verse?  &)
Rather than ask a question that is this ridiculous, how about explaining why you think I’m wrong, OS?  Tell me why this doesn’t mean what it says literally.
I asked for clarification because I can't see where you'd get anything  from it.None of the many commentaries on it do.
I did like Clarke's  comments :Shall receive a hundredfold - Viz. in this life, in value, though perhaps not in kind; and in the world to come everlasting life. A glorious portion for a persevering believer! The fullness of Grace here, and the fullness of Glory hereafter!

Also see Mark 10: 30
who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.


 
  Poor OS, still can’t show that he’s any better a Christian than I was when I was a Christian but has to try to cast doubt on the fact that I was.
You recall it was your atheism I believed to cast doubt on your Christian claim.We beat that dead horse already.


  I’ve read the bible at least twice completely, once as a believer and once as not and probably more than that piece by piece.  Have you read it, OS?  Many Christians haven’t.
I have read it , actually.I can't really say how many times overall.I don't keep track as if it were a contest of some sort or that 'more Scripture automatically makes one more "spiritual".
I don't know many Christians who haven't been exposed to the Word time and again.As far as reading it on a regular basis, I'd agree with you, many Christians probably don't.There are denominations that don't teach the personal benefits of doing so.
  But one would think they would since this is the only indication that their god even *might* have existed.
Classic 1st world ignorant statement.You do realize there are places where The Bible isn't readily available? In spite of which many of the Christians , with only portions of Scripture, lead vibrant, obedient and joyful lives as Christians.Funny how that works....plenty of Bible time makes an apostate and limited access to Scripture and you have great examples of Christianity.

Unfortunately, nothing else supports that conclusion.

 I think Monarch butterflies do.

When peace, like a river, attendeth my way,
when sorrows like sea billows roll;
what ever my lot, you have taught me to say
it is well, it is well with my soul.

Horatio Spafford

Offline Historicity

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2011, 02:54:55 PM »
It is for everyone who believes....everything must go?You don't think that may be a tad hyper-literalist?

HAHA! Yeah... Give up all your possessions?  No thanks, too literalist.  Cut off a piece of your FUCKING COCK?  Sure, pass the knife. That's not hyper-literalist at all.

It's all so fucking stupid.  You people are just nuts.

It gives you psychic powers:
Quote
Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

St. Paul was saying that Jews say this if you bother with the context.



Offline Graybeard

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #27 on: December 20, 2011, 03:24:12 PM »
... I have read it [the Bible], actually.I can't really say how many times overall.I don't keep track as if it were a contest of some sort or that 'more Scripture automatically makes one more "spiritual".
I don't know many Christians who haven't been exposed to the Word time and again.As far as reading it on a regular basis, I'd agree with you, many Christians probably don't.There are denominations that don't teach the personal benefits of doing so.
There are 2 ways of reading the Bible:
(i) to confirm (a) those selected parts that have been taught to you and (b) the accepted interpretation as done by your particular sect
and
(ii) to understand the context of Bronze Age philosophy and society.

The latter will show you a tendency for the peoples of biblical lands to mis-observe a phenomenon, to interpret it wrongly and to invent an explanation.

As we move to the NT, we see a mish-mash of pre-existing philosophies espoused by a mythical figure.
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Unfortunately, nothing else supports that conclusion.

Quote
I think Monarch butterflies do.
They don't go to heaven...
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline velkyn

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Re: Christians Who Haven't Read Their Bible
« Reply #28 on: December 20, 2011, 04:13:09 PM »
I asked for clarification because I can't see where you'd get anything  from it.None of the many commentaries on it do.
  Well, since I did get quite a lot from it, you were wrong and whoop-de-doo about your commentaries.  They also don’t mention the parable of the minas much either, with it’s rather embarrassing nonsense. Now, since you think I’m wrong, show me why. 
Quote
I did like Clarke's  comments :Shall receive a hundredfold - Viz. in this life, in value, though perhaps not in kind; and in the world to come everlasting life. A glorious portion for a persevering believer! The fullness of Grace here, and the fullness of Glory hereafter!
and the point of quoting this is????  More baseless claims from a book known for them and the excuses to explain why the bible fails.
Quote
Also see Mark 10: 30 who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.
Yep, one more version of this story.  don’t for get the lead-in to this lovely verse: “ 29 “Truly I tell you,” Jesus replied, “no one who has left home or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or fields for me and the gospel”   Ah, another Job.  You’d have no problem with a god that killed your wife and family and destroyed your home, as long as you got your magic presents.  Boy, I’m happy not to be your family.  Really really happy. 
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You recall it was your atheism I believed to cast doubt on your Christian claim.We beat that dead horse already.
And what you “believed” was never shown to be the case.  I recall a man who has yet to show that he’s any more of a Christian than I was which is where I believe you left that “dead horse” which wasn’t so dead as you would try to make people beleive.  A man who can’t figure out that one can be sure of something one day and not the next (or over a decade of questioning, etc). 
 
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I have read it , actually.I can't really say how many times overall.I don't keep track as if it were a contest of some sort or that 'more Scripture automatically makes one more "spiritual".
then I wonder how you can be limited as you claimed. And no, it’s not a contest.  But it is pretty amusing when a Christian can be shown to be ignorant of something that supposedly is so important, getting the “right” interpretation, etc. 
Quote
I don't know many Christians who haven't been exposed to the Word time and again.As far as reading it on a regular basis, I'd agree with you, many Christians probably don't.There are denominations that don't teach the personal benefits of doing so.
Yep, and gee, isn’t that curious, Christians who don’t agree with you &) 
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Classic 1st world ignorant statement.You do realize there are places where The Bible isn't readily available? In spite of which many of the Christians , with only portions of Scripture, lead vibrant, obedient and joyful lives as Christians.Funny how that works....plenty of Bible time makes an apostate and limited access to Scripture and you have great examples of Christianity.
Yep, I am aware of those places, and hmmm?  Yep, just like *you* say, they have at least portions of the scripture and people who have read more right there with them.  No one suddenly gets your god without some very tangible exposure to the bible.  I completely agree with you, funny how if you read all of the bible and are familiar with it, people can become atheists or agnostics or believers in some totally different religion.  It’s when people aren’t told the whole truth that the bible is more palatable.  You don’t see the genocides, divinely approved of rape, ridiculous laws, or this god throwing a hissy fit, or JC saying that those who don’t accept him should be killed, or this god working hand in hand with Satan in the end times.  All of those are somehow left out.  They get the unfulfilled promises, god will be back real soon now, they get the usual spew to the unfortunate, oh don’t worry, you’ll get magic presents!    And what’s even more amusing is that in these places with a lack of exposure to the bible, we have various sects of Christians trying to convert Christians that they don’t agree with for their “team”.   
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I think Monarch butterflies do.
  oooh, you do? I think that supports the existence of Tezcatlipoca and that butterflies are the contented dead, who come back to show us that they are okay.  Please do show me that I’m wrong.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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