Author Topic: How many people has Christianity killed?  (Read 4860 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Iamrational

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
  • Darwins +9/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
How many people has Christianity killed?
« on: December 14, 2011, 12:01:28 PM »
I have been researching this topic to get a narrowed estimate. I have been on some sites that offer great detail, but a total and likewise. I would like to find out what you all discovered in your studies. There are a few disputed aspects that I would like to discuss:

1. Would you stay with a more factual estimate to include events that probably took place? Or, would you go with a more theoretic estimate that takes into account supposed god controlled events like miscarriage and natural disasters?

2. Would you include events like Columbus coming over to North America and the Spanish heading to South America as Christian based genocide? Why or why not?

3. This is highly debatable. Would you include supposed Christians who killed not in the name of Christianity, but killed none the less? The reason I ask is related to the side note.

4. Back to the theory, what about bible deaths? If I wanted to combat a bible god lover's argument that god is all loving and peaceful, should I include those which could bring the total to over 20 million?

Side note: What about the flipside. I have heard arguments that half the murders in history have happened in the last 100 years and at the hands of Atheism. Now I don't want to argue that Atheism is a belief system like religion. However, a theist will claim that if these maniacs had religion in their lives, they may not have directed so much death. Also, do you believe that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot were or were not religious? Why or why not? Also, have you read any definitive proof either way? What about this sneaky term "Atheist Communism?"
 

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11806
  • Darwins +296/-82
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2011, 12:02:38 PM »
It doesn't matter in the end -- 1 is enough.  But by the same token every major and non-major religion has killed too many; and even non-religious people have killed too many.  The numbers do not really matter unless you're using them in a debate in stupidity.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2011, 01:34:20 PM »
Side note: What about the flipside. I have heard arguments that half the murders in history have happened in the last 100 years and at the hands of Atheism. Now I don't want to argue that Atheism is a belief system like religion. However, a theist will claim that if these maniacs had religion in their lives, they may not have directed so much death. Also, do you believe that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot were or were not religious? Why or why not? Also, have you read any definitive proof either way? What about this sneaky term "Atheist Communism?"

Hitler, et all were megalomaniacs, as much atheist as a Christian is an atheist when it comes to Vishnu.  They were all sure that they were essentially gods. 

and there's nothing to show that religion stops anyone from doing anything they want to do.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
  • Darwins +38/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2011, 01:56:49 PM »
Quote
Hitler, et all were megalomaniacs, as much atheist as a Christian is an atheist when it comes to Vishnu.  They were all sure that they were essentially gods.
 
They also were no more close to being a Christian as to being an atheist. They where just messed up in the head. Or is it because they believed they were sort of a god themselves. Once again it is the fault of religion?
Quote
and there's nothing to show that religion stops anyone from doing anything they want to do.
So , if religion can not stop anyone from doing anything they want to do. How do we know that all of the wrong doings that has been blamed on religion was indeed not just evil people using religion as a way to explain what they did. So once again, I claim that religion is not the cause of wrong doing just the reason used by evil people. It is just a case of , I am not to blame I believed that is what God wanted. So blame everything on religion. Does anybody see what is wrong with that? Or am I once again just wrong?
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2011, 02:29:12 PM »
They also were no more close to being a Christian as to being an atheist. They where just messed up in the head. Or is it because they believed they were sort of a god themselves. Once again it is the fault of religion?
Many theists like to claim that atheism was the root cause of the acts of Hitler, etc.  Of course, they can’t show that to be the case.  It is fairly easy to make the case that they were megalomaniacs, who were both religious (Hitler) and not (stalin, Dear Leader), and they acted as absolute dictators with what is eerily reminiscient of religions built up around them.  They were acting as they would with religion backing Hitler and Stalin, Pol Pot, etc, delusiosn of superiority backing them.  One doesn’t need religion to do horrible things.

But, religion, especially Christianity, has been used repeatedly to support just as nasty people *and* it claims to be the divine universal “truth” complete with heaven and hell as carrot and stick.   It has written into it that this god puts all rulers in their places and that all rulers are doing god’s work.  The problem is that this god doesn’t’ do anything about someone who is committing genocide, etc.  It supposedly used to do a lot of smiting but now, where facts reign instead of myth, god has vanished.  Religion gives a moral whitewash to actions, God wants me to do it. God approves. It’s God’s will.  And believers pick and choose to follow what they will, all with no evidence of anything out of “faith”. At least Stalin could point to modern agricultural techniques as working even though he totally screwed them up in his own demented way.  Religion is no truth, it’s just as malleable as anything else and this lie that it is anything different is what makes responsible. It must keep up the guise that it is unquestionable to exist.
Quote
So , if religion can not stop anyone from doing anything they want to do. How do we know that all of the wrong doings that has been blamed on religion was indeed not just evil people using religion as a way to explain what they did.
Well, like above, why doesn’t your god do something then?  It did a lot once upon a time to people who did things it didn’t like, why nothing now?  Why allow it’s holy name to be besmirched?  Oh, and saying “God is mysterious and I can’t answer” is just avoiding the issue and ignoring your responsibility as a thinking human.   The universe shows no evidence of any god caring, so either your god doesn’t care, thus not like the bible claims, or doesn’t exist. 
Quote
So once again, I claim that religion is not the cause of wrong doing just the reason used by evil people. It is just a case of , I am not to blame I believed that is what God wanted. So blame everything on religion. Does anybody see what is wrong with that? Or am I once again just wrong?
You are wrong because you want religion to be immune to any criticism and to say “well it’s only puny humans”.  You ignore the fact that your supposedly interested god does nothing to correct this.  So, yes, religion is responisible and god would be if it existed. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
  • Darwins +38/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2011, 02:38:46 PM »
You bring up some interesting points. However I have grown to expect such things and would be disappointed if you did not. ;) As I have posted before, when I stand face to face with God , I will have a few questions for him.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2011, 02:50:23 PM »
1. ... more theoretic estimate that takes into account supposed god controlled events like miscarriage and natural disasters?
2. ...  Columbus coming over to North America ...
3. ... Christians who killed not in the name of Christianity, but killed none the less? ...
4. ... what about bible deaths? ...

5. What about the number killed by faith healing instead of the best available medicine?  This includes such things as St. Daniel with the clothes he never removed and the rope belt that rotted in his waist while he picked up the maggots and put them back saying, "Eat what God has given you?"  I have forgotten the name of the saint who had a serious accident but would not let a doctor examine her for that might offend her holy virginalness.  She healed up anyway and was extolled to over a 1000 years of Christian girls to avoid doctors.  Then there is Ferdinand and Isabella, "Los Reyes Catolicos".  Isabella boasted she had only bathed twice in her life:  Once when she was born and once before her marriage.  (They also bathed her corpse for the funeral[1].)

6. What about the number killed by Christianity's rejection of the germ theory of disease and the consequent rotten sanitation of the Middle Ages?  As someone has noted he'd be more impressed by the many visitations of the Virgin Mary to villagers if she had told them to dump sewage and offal and have cattle pens downstream from the village.
 1.  ... probably just to spite her.  Will Cuppy's joke in The Decline and Fall of Practically Everybody

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2011, 03:01:06 PM »
You bring up some interesting points. However I have grown to expect such things and would be disappointed if you did not. ;) As I have posted before, when I stand face to face with God , I will have a few questions for him.

and that doesnt' bother you?  You'll obey and obey without questioning and then you'll ask questions when you're dead? Hell of a gamble with pascal's wager, Riley.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4549
  • Darwins +103/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2011, 06:38:40 PM »
I have been researching this topic to get a narrowed estimate. I have been on some sites that offer great detail, but a total and likewise. I would like to find out what you all discovered in your studies. There are a few disputed aspects that I would like to discuss:

1. Would you stay with a more factual estimate to include events that probably took place? Or, would you go with a more theoretic estimate that takes into account supposed god controlled events like miscarriage and natural disasters?

2. Would you include events like Columbus coming over to North America and the Spanish heading to South America as Christian based genocide? Why or why not?

3. This is highly debatable. Would you include supposed Christians who killed not in the name of Christianity, but killed none the less? The reason I ask is related to the side note.

4. Back to the theory, what about bible deaths? If I wanted to combat a bible god lover's argument that god is all loving and peaceful, should I include those which could bring the total to over 20 million?

Side note: What about the flipside. I have heard arguments that half the murders in history have happened in the last 100 years and at the hands of Atheism. Now I don't want to argue that Atheism is a belief system like religion. However, a theist will claim that if these maniacs had religion in their lives, they may not have directed so much death. Also, do you believe that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot were or were not religious? Why or why not? Also, have you read any definitive proof either way? What about this sneaky term "Atheist Communism?"
Being an "Indian" from N.A. # 3  is what got me .....they used passages in the Bible to justify the killing of the heathen Indians......not only was it there god given right to take over it was doing God's work for him....funny when I ask any white guy who was worse the settlers of north america or Hitler....they always chose Hitler,maybe because it was more of a group effort than a single leader.

 As for the Spanish Vs. Columbus,I think the Spanish were more brutal in the begining......but when we wouldn't go away those who followed Columbus here finished the Job pretty good
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
  • Darwins +38/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2011, 08:21:45 PM »
You bring up some interesting points. However I have grown to expect such things and would be disappointed if you did not. ;) As I have posted before, when I stand face to face with God , I will have a few questions for him.

and that doesnt' bother you?  You'll obey and obey without questioning and then you'll ask questions when you're dead? Hell of a gamble with pascal's wager, Riley.
I don't think the word obey is one that fits me. And you have talked to me enough to know that I am full of questions. Just a little slow at letting the answers sink in. However just because I question most everything about God or I do not yet believe that the Bible is the true words of God, it may be  the words of men that just wanted some power. Even if I do not understand all of what it means to worship . That does not mean I am just going to throw God away.
I don't understand Him , so He doesn't exist? That is just a little weak for me to accept. :? As for pascal, if that is all it was then I would have thrown in the towel already. You really can not make yourself believe in something you do not believe in. That is the problem, I don't want to believe any more. But as you can not make yourself believe in what you don't , I am finding out that you can not just stop believing because you want to. Who would have guessed that it would work that way.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10294
  • Darwins +177/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2011, 09:11:04 PM »
How many stars are in the sky.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Brakeman

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1243
  • Darwins +47/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2011, 11:14:32 PM »
Something just occurred to me. "If religion is like your penis, .. don't try to stuff it down my child's throat"  That sparked the thought that it is wrong for a man to sexually molest a child, any child, even if it was his own child, even if was a clone child made from his own cells and he did all of the work in his own basement, it would still be wrong..

In the same way, just because god made us, even if he made us in his image, it is always wrong for him to abuse us. His being our god daddy doesn't matter.. he's a dick.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10773
  • Darwins +274/-34
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2011, 02:51:31 AM »
The answer is: Too many[1].
 1. Although I think that a single life being destroyed for some things is one life too many. Interpret this the way you wish.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
  • Darwins +38/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2011, 03:59:47 AM »
Something just occurred to me. "If religion is like your penis, .. don't try to stuff it down my child's throat"  That sparked the thought that it is wrong for a man to sexually molest a child, any child, even if it was his own child, even if was a clone child made from his own cells and he did all of the work in his own basement, it would still be wrong..

In the same way, just because god made us, even if he made us in his image, it is always wrong for him to abuse us. His being our god daddy doesn't matter.. he's a dick.
Don't sugar coat it.  :-[ you do know that you may have some anger issues , right?
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2011, 10:03:37 AM »
Something just occurred to me. "If religion is like your penis, .. don't try to stuff it down my child's throat"  That sparked the thought that it is wrong for a man to sexually molest a child, any child, even if it was his own child, even if was a clone child made from his own cells and he did all of the work in his own basement, it would still be wrong..

In the same way, just because god made us, even if he made us in his image, it is always wrong for him to abuse us. His being our god daddy doesn't matter.. he's a dick.
Don't sugar coat it.  :-[ you do know that you may have some anger issues , right?

I don't think it's anger issues, it's recognizing that the bible god isn't a nice character.    The actions by this god in the bible would get a person called a dick, IMO.  Why indeed sugar coat it? 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline rev45

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1206
  • Darwins +37/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Did your parents raise you to be an idiot?
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 10:59:02 AM »
I don't think it's anger issues, it's recognizing that the bible god isn't a nice character.    The actions by this god in the bible would get a person called a dick, IMO.  Why indeed sugar coat it?
Or put on trial for crimes against humanity.  But maybe calling him a dick will get him to see the error of his ways. 
Here read a book.  It's free.
http://www.literatureproject.com/

Could a being create the fifty billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?   Ron Patterson

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4720
  • Darwins +531/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2011, 10:59:39 AM »
You might as well as, "how many people have people killed"?

As Nam pointed out, the exact numbers aren't particularly useful, because practically every cultural anything that's ever been invented by humanity is responsible for a lot of blood being spilled.

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
  • Darwins +38/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2011, 02:13:03 PM »
Something just occurred to me. "If religion is like your penis, .. don't try to stuff it down my child's throat"  That sparked the thought that it is wrong for a man to sexually molest a child, any child, even if it was his own child, even if was a clone child made from his own cells and he did all of the work in his own basement, it would still be wrong..

In the same way, just because god made us, even if he made us in his image, it is always wrong for him to abuse us. His being our god daddy doesn't matter.. he's a dick.
Don't sugar coat it.  :-[ you do know that you may have some anger issues , right?

I don't think it's anger issues, it's recognizing that the bible god isn't a nice character.    The actions by this god in the bible would get a person called a dick, IMO.  Why indeed sugar coat it?
No, I believe it is anger issues. I have read many of his post and that would seem to be evidence of my belief on this issue. 8)
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline Brakeman

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1243
  • Darwins +47/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2011, 07:04:45 PM »
No, I believe it is anger issues. I have read many of his post and that would seem to be evidence of my belief on this issue. 8)

The only anger issues that I have are when I think back in my past and remember the evil that I witnessed christians do in the name of god. I could give lots of examples. Yet my current psyche is not hindered at all by anger or hatred. I am a buisness professional, a father of 4 and a Husband and I spend way more time thinking of them than I do bad mouthing christians and their delusions.

I see religion as an immoral con game, and I think of christians that perpetuate it as nothing more than the average mugger or pickpocket. I think most christians know deep in their heart that they are bullshitting, but get too much out of it to face up to reality. This belief puts me at odds to many of the atheists here, as they are kinder and more sympathetic and  don't like to offend theists' sensitive projections. I love giving back in kind though. Theists like to not only degrade those who believe differently but also the helpless and feeble minded who cannot see through their lies. They love to push hymns on little children to sing words that break down their self worth with song lines that say "such a wretch as I".

My Father is a life long Baptist Minister, My deceased Father in law was a deep fundy church of god man.
I was a believer for about 16 years or better. From this exposure I do have many reasons to have "anger issues" with christians, but not god as I know that he is imaginary. You can't be really angry with someone who isn't real. No more than I could be angry with Sponge Bob Squarepants.

When are you going to tell us what god himself has told you? How did you know god accepted you when you prayed to be saved?  .. I guess that you just took other men's word for that too huh?
How gullible are you?
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline ungod

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
  • Darwins +15/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2011, 12:14:47 AM »
You bring up some interesting points. However I have grown to expect such things and would be disappointed if you did not. ;) As I have posted before, when I stand face to face with God , I will have a few questions for him.

Uh, how do you "stand face to face" with a spirit? Duh!
Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

"What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." - Hitler

Offline Samothec

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Darwins +49/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2011, 01:39:41 AM »
I have been researching this topic to get a narrowed estimate. I have been on some sites that offer great detail, but a total and likewise. I would like to find out what you all discovered in your studies. There are a few disputed aspects that I would like to discuss:

1. Would you stay with a more factual estimate to include events that probably took place? Or, would you go with a more theoretic estimate that takes into account supposed god controlled events like miscarriage and natural disasters?

2. Would you include events like Columbus coming over to North America and the Spanish heading to South America as Christian based genocide? Why or why not?

3. This is highly debatable. Would you include supposed Christians who killed not in the name of Christianity, but killed none the less? The reason I ask is related to the side note.

4. Back to the theory, what about bible deaths? If I wanted to combat a bible god lover's argument that god is all loving and peaceful, should I include those which could bring the total to over 20 million?

Side note: What about the flipside. I have heard arguments that half the murders in history have happened in the last 100 years and at the hands of Atheism. Now I don't want to argue that Atheism is a belief system like religion. However, a theist will claim that if these maniacs had religion in their lives, they may not have directed so much death. Also, do you believe that Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or Pol Pot were or were not religious? Why or why not? Also, have you read any definitive proof either way? What about this sneaky term "Atheist Communism?"

You've got a reasonable start. The best way to present the data would be to indicate how you collected it (noting that some sources can not be verified, like Biblical ones) and listing the separate categories, eventually giving the total.

Potential categories and subcategories:
God's direct action: miscarriages, hurricanes, tsunami, earthquakes, floods, etc.
Human action: conquest of North & South America, the Inquisition, the witch hunts, faith healing, etc
Biblical accounts: (drawing a blank at the moment)

As for the supposed flip side: Hitler was a believer - a weird personal mix of Xianity and pagan - IIRC
While communist countries try/tried to suppress religion, it is very debatable whether it can really be called "atheist".
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline joebbowers

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1074
  • Darwins +91/-47
  • Gender: Male
    • My Photography
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2011, 07:53:20 AM »
Hitler was not an atheist. Christians have been repeating this lie for decades, trying to rewrite history to distance themselves from the man the Catholic church once considered to be the hope for the future of mankind. Hitler wrote: "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." In his book, Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country. He brought about the holocaust as a direct result of religion.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline kaziglu bey

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
  • Darwins +121/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • There is no Big Brother in the sky.
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2011, 08:31:46 AM »

I do not yet believe that the Bible is the true words of God, it may be  the words of men that just wanted some power
  Hit the nail on the head. Try considering the Bible with that in mind, and see if it doesn't make more sense that way.

Quote
I don't understand Him , so He doesn't exist? That is just a little weak for me to accept. :? As for pascal, if that is all it was then I would have thrown in the towel already. You really can not make yourself believe in something you do not believe in. That is the problem, I don't want to believe any more. But as you can not make yourself believe in what you don't , I am finding out that you can not just stop believing because you want to. Who would have guessed that it would work that way.

It's not a matter of "not understanding" God. When one looks critically at the Bible, God can only be seen as a callous, jealous, vengeful, hateful, violent, grudge bearing lunatic who does not know how to handle his power responsibility.

Or take this as an example. According to the Bible, we have free will. But, also according to the Bible, God has predestined everything since before creation. These are entirely mutually exclusive of one another.

If you go the free will route, then other problems arise also. God is seen to "harden the hearts" of people throughout the Bible with whom he has grievance. God is, in these cases, removing their free will. It might raise other questions too, such as "How can God punish humans for acts of free will that are identical to or less destructive than acts of free will by God?".

IF you go the pre-destined route, then God arbitrarily chooses who will be "saved" and who will burn. People do not choose to do evil, they do evil because God has predestined them to do it. They are being punished for God's cruelty. Also, Jesus alleged "sacrifice" becomes completely pointless. There is no path to salvation if God has already chosen his flock.

If a God's description of himself in his biography creates a logical impossibility, what does that say about him?
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
  • Darwins +38/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2011, 09:21:46 AM »

I do not yet believe that the Bible is the true words of God, it may be  the words of men that just wanted some power
Quote
Hit the nail on the head. Try considering the Bible with that in mind, and see if it doesn't make more sense that way.
keep this in mind as you read the rest
Quote
I don't understand Him , so He doesn't exist? That is just a little weak for me to accept. :? As for pascal, if that is all it was then I would have thrown in the towel already. You really can not make yourself believe in something you do not believe in. That is the problem, I don't want to believe any more. But as you can not make yourself believe in what you don't , I am finding out that you can not just stop believing because you want to. Who would have guessed that it would work that way.

It's not a matter of "not understanding" God. When one looks critically at the Bible, God can only be seen as a callous, jealous, vengeful, hateful, violent, grudge bearing lunatic who does not know how to handle his power responsibility.

Or take this as an example. According to the Bible, we have free will. But, also according to the Bible, God has predestined everything since before creation. These are entirely mutually exclusive of one another.

If you go the free will route, then other problems arise also. God is seen to "harden the hearts" of people throughout the Bible with whom he has grievance. God is, in these cases, removing their free will. It might raise other questions too, such as "How can God punish humans for acts of free will that are identical to or less destructive than acts of free will by God?".

IF you go the pre-destined route, then God arbitrarily chooses who will be "saved" and who will burn. People do not choose to do evil, they do evil because God has predestined them to do it. They are being punished for God's cruelty. Also, Jesus alleged "sacrifice" becomes completely pointless. There is no path to salvation if God has already chosen his flock.

If a God's description of himself in his biography creates a logical impossibility, what does that say about him?
If Jesus will cause or allow Mohandas Gandhi and Jewish Holocaust victims to suffer for all eternity, when the Christian Bible clearly says that Jesus is the only savior and human beings can't save themselves, wouldn't that make Jesus a monster? If an all-knowing God created human beings foreseeing in advance that many (or any) of them would suffer for all eternity, wouldn't that make God a monster? And if Christian mothers believe in "hell," how can they give life to babies who might end up in "hell" — wouldn't that make them monsters? This is the horror of hell-based Christianity: it turns God, Jesus and Christian mothers into monsters willing to play eternal roulette with the souls of innocent children. And what about all the mothers who would be forced to choose between Jesus and their own children? Could good mothers live happily in heaven with Jesus, knowing their children were suffering forever because Jesus refused to save them, when he was able to save the thief on the cross with a nod of his head? Surely only the bad mothers would remain in heaven. All the good mothers would curse Jesus and storm out of heaven to be with their children. They certainly wouldn't worship or praise the petty egomaniac who demanded belief without ever bothering to introduce himself to their children personally! (Michael R. Burch)

Think about it . If God is all loving then He would not do this, which in turn would mean that some of the men in charge of writing the Bible may have changed it to meet what the powers that be,(men in charge, kings ) needed or wanted at the time. Which may explain way the Bible seems to contradict itself from time to time. I know, a somewhat wild claim, but a thought.
Even when you all are saying that the Bible is not the TRUE word of God , you still seem like you make your decisions about Him from what is written in the Bible. I am not saying I am wrong or right here. But still just looking for the truth and isn't that what you are doing or are you educated beyond searching or learning any more? Is it really God that you are mad at or don't believe in , or is it the way that people has taken religion and trashed it to the point of being ridicules that you are truly pissed about? Now before you rip this into threads, give it a second or two and think about it. Just saying
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline kaziglu bey

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
  • Darwins +121/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • There is no Big Brother in the sky.
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2011, 09:55:40 AM »
If Jesus will cause or allow Mohandas Gandhi and Jewish Holocaust victims to suffer for all eternity, when the Christian Bible clearly says that Jesus is the only savior and human beings can't save themselves, wouldn't that make Jesus a monster?

Yes.
Quote
If an all-knowing God created human beings foreseeing in advance that many (or any) of them would suffer for all eternity, wouldn't that make God a monster?

Yes. You're starting to catch on.

Quote
And if Christian mothers believe in "hell," how can they give life to babies who might end up in "hell" — wouldn't that make them monsters?
one might wonder this also.

Quote
  This is the horror of hell-based Christianity: it turns God, Jesus and Christian mothers into monsters willing to play eternal roulette with the souls of innocent children. And what about all the mothers who would be forced to choose between Jesus and their own children? Could good mothers live happily in heaven with Jesus, knowing their children were suffering forever because Jesus refused to save them, when he was able to save the thief on the cross with a nod of his head? Surely only the bad mothers would remain in heaven. All the good mothers would curse Jesus and storm out of heaven to be with their children. They certainly wouldn't worship or praise the petty egomaniac who demanded belief without ever bothering to introduce himself to their children personally! (Michael R. Burch)

Oh, you were quoting somebody. Still, asks a lot of pertinent questions doesn't it?

Quote
Think about it . If God is all loving then He would not do this, which in turn would mean that some of the men in charge of writing the Bible may have changed it to meet what the powers that be,(men in charge, kings ) needed or wanted at the time. Which may explain way the Bible seems to contradict itself from time to time. I know, a somewhat wild claim, but a thought.

True, he wouldn't do this if he was all loving. So either he doesn't do these things, or he unloving. If some parts of the Bible may hae been altered by the hand of man, then how can we know what to trust? I know of no means of objectively determining whether the Bible accurately represents God. But if people are going to worship a God based on that Bible, even though it could be inaccurate or even wrong, then I feel justifying in calling them out. Either God does evil things as described in the Bible, or he doesn't. If he does, then he is not all loving. If he doesn't, then the Bible doesn't seem to accurately represent God. If the basis for your belief in God is an ancient and erroneous book, you really need to ask yourself: why? If there is an all powerful, loving, caring, benevolent God who performs miracles and interferes in human affairs in a positive way, it can't be the God described in the Bible.

Quote
Even when you all are saying that the Bible is not the TRUE word of God , you still seem like you make your decisions about Him from what is written in the Bible.

That's because we are addressing claims made by those who do believe, with the basis of their belief being the Bible. It only seems that if one wants to discuss the claims made in the Bible, the Bible is a good source for those claims.

Quote
I am not saying I am wrong or right here. But still just looking for the truth and isn't that what you are doing or are you educated beyond searching or learning any more? Is it really God that you are mad at or don't believe in ,

Mad at? No, he doesn't exist I can't be mad at him. No I don't belief in Yahweh, the same way the Pope doesn't belief in Damballah.

Quote
or is it the way that people has taken religion and trashed it to the point of being ridicules that you are truly pissed about?

Nobody has taken religion and trashed it. Religion reveals itself to be trash with just an ounce of critical examination. Look at the achievements of Religion, and then compare it to the achievements of science: which one actually works and can change things? People use religion to justify all kinds of evil, and point to their religious texts as evidence.

Quote
Now before you rip this into threads, give it a second or two and think about it. Just saying

Ok. I did. Hopefully you don't feel that I ripped this into threads with any sort of negative connotation. It's not a personal attack.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline riley2112

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 359
  • Darwins +38/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • learn to laugh at yourself. I am.
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2011, 10:19:10 AM »
No. I thought you were very thoughtful and gave an interesting and informal responce. thank you
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline kaziglu bey

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
  • Darwins +121/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • There is no Big Brother in the sky.
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2011, 10:33:49 AM »
No. I thought you were very thoughtful and gave an interesting and informal responce. thank you

You're welcome. Hopefully you can get Occam's Razor to shave off God's big bushy white beard.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2011, 11:37:29 AM »
I'm going to introduce a strange psychological tangent.

IAmRational had a Godwin -- yet another reference to Hitler, Nazis, WW2.  Godwin's Law is that as an internet discussion becomes longer the probability that it will introduce a Hitler analogy approaches 1.

I never noticed the Godwin.  I do believe I am achieving a Godwin Blindness Syndrome. (Please alert the APA for the next DSM[1].)  It is described as an overload of Hitler references turning it into such a banality that it numbs rather than shocks  and becomes completely ignored.   In other words to the sufferer hitler becomes fnord -- a word the sufferer doesn't notice but causes a faint discomfort.
 1. American Psychological Assoc. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders

Offline Samothec

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Darwins +49/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: How many people has Christianity killed?
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2011, 01:10:41 AM »
Think about it . If God is all loving then He would not do this, which in turn would mean that some of the men in charge of writing the Bible may have changed it to meet what the powers that be,(men in charge, kings ) needed or wanted at the time. Which may explain way the Bible seems to contradict itself from time to time. I know, a somewhat wild claim, but a thought.
Even when you all are saying that the Bible is not the TRUE word of God , you still seem like you make your decisions about Him from what is written in the Bible. I am not saying I am wrong or right here. But still just looking for the truth and isn't that what you are doing or are you educated beyond searching or learning any more? Is it really God that you are mad at or don't believe in , or is it the way that people has taken religion and trashed it to the point of being ridicules that you are truly pissed about? Now before you rip this into threads, give it a second or two and think about it. Just saying

Riley, while I am far from being an expert in the history of the Bible, what I do know about it makes me suspect that you don't have any knowledge of its history. The contents of the Bible were decided upon by a committee. Not all gospels are in the New Testament. The Old Testament is the holy books of the Jews but not all of them are present. And as for "the Bible seems to contradict itself", um, no, it does contradict itself, period. And is inaccurate saying things like a bat is a type of bird.

As for being mad at god or religion, my answer is both. I won't say anything further regarding god because my answer that touched upon those thoughts in the thread Re: Do you want there to be a creator? [#2629] seems to have killed it. As for religion, see my signature.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther