Author Topic: if god doesn't exist  (Read 1163 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline tomt

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 26
  • Darwins +1/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
if god doesn't exist
« on: December 14, 2011, 12:21:31 AM »

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3014
  • Darwins +265/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2011, 12:29:25 AM »
who would protect us from evil people?
Good people.

Admittedly, humans are limited in what they can do to prevent or halt evil or to offer solace afterwards; however, it appears that humans are doing the heavy lifting and gods not very much at all.  (Self included in the "do-nothing gods" category, though I do give at the office and help out when I can.)
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline Philosopher_at_large

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 681
  • Darwins +18/-2
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2011, 12:32:51 AM »
I don't understand the question. What about Carlos Castaneda's writings do I need to be protected from?
"A moral philosophy that is fact based should be based upon the facts about human nature and nothing else." - Mortimer J. Adler

Offline wright

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1871
  • Darwins +79/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "Sleep like a log, snore like a chainsaw."
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2011, 12:51:29 AM »
who would protect us from evil people?

like these -

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/ulloa.html

http://wanderling.tripod.com/osorio.html

Since I don't see any more evidence for the devil than I do of god, no one needs protection from Castaneda or the people he writes about unless they're actually offering that person harm. Then I'd advise calling the cops, or if that's impractical, self-defense. If you don't like his ideas, then don't buy his books.

Problem solved, no god necessary.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3014
  • Darwins +265/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #4 on: December 14, 2011, 12:59:10 AM »
Ah,  Castaneda...  I read Tales of Power in college -- In a Modern Literature class.  To expand on My earlier statement, I don't see any gods smacking down malevolent brujas and sorcerers, so humans will have to figure this out.  Either play the same game (try to out-magic them by learning the craft) or debunk them.  I'm tending towards the latter approach.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6480
  • Darwins +771/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2011, 01:04:52 AM »
Where is the god protection here?  Did he keep the books from being printed or prevent us 70's hippies from buying them in droves?  I don't think so.

If he's so good at protecting us from books, why was he so inefficient at protecting the children of
Andrea Yates, the Texas mom who drowned her five kids because she figured they would have a better chance of going to heaven if they died young, before they could become evil like her?

Yes she was crazy. More so than the author of those books. If your god is real, what are his priorities? Bad people or bad books?

I tried to make this shorter and depend on insinuation and innuendo and triumphant silent pauses like you, but I'm no good at it. Sorry.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1291
  • Darwins +406/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2011, 01:47:21 AM »
So you want a god to protect you from...sorcerers?  Really?
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline free

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 138
  • Darwins +9/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • We didn't land on Mt Sinai, Mt Sinai landed on us!
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2011, 07:23:40 AM »
Don't you monotheists (I'll assume you are) believe that God doesn't intervene?  That seems to be the most common response from theists.  And then we get a question of who will protect us if he isn't here!  I thought he doesn't intervene?  Only with evil people?  And yet we have had Stalin, Bin Laden, Hilter, Mubarak, Mao, Hussein, Il.... I could go on.  Where was god for those?  Right he doesn't intervene, I nearly forgot. 

So how can you ask who will protect us, given that he doesn't intervene?  God clearly doesn't.  In the cases listed above it seemed to be 'good' people protecting us. (Lets not get into a discussion on good vs. evil people and what side of the fence you're on).

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2011, 08:37:37 AM »
So you want a god to protect you from...sorcerers?  Really?

I don't need god to do that, I have my Ring of Protection vs. Spells.  Sorted!
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Samuelxcs

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
  • Darwins +6/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • The oldest and strongest emotion of humans is fear
    • Fallen Angels
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2011, 08:38:25 AM »
We could protect ourselves.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
-Thomas Szasz

Offline kcrady

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1291
  • Darwins +406/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • Your Friendly Neighborhood Cephalopod Overlord
    • My blog
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2011, 11:18:42 AM »
So you want a god to protect you from...sorcerers?  Really?

I don't need god to do that, I have my Ring of Protection vs. Spells.  Sorted!

I rely on my Skeptic's Immunitytm.  It works pretty darn well as a magic-nullifier, just ask James Randi.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2011, 11:21:14 AM »
who would protect us from evil people?


oooh,who would protect us from vampires?

I'd prefer to rely on Buffy or Blade.  &)
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12345
  • Darwins +678/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 12:04:40 PM »
who would protect us from evil people?


In what way are we protected from evil people now?  They seem to be able to do what they want without any gods getting in their way.  Occasionally the FBI intervenes.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12525
  • Darwins +324/-84
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 12:07:20 PM »
There are many nations who use laws against bad people without the need of a deity/god or a religion.

You fail.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3894
  • Darwins +258/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 12:21:12 PM »
who would protect us from evil people?

like these -



http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/ulloa.html



http://wanderling.tripod.com/osorio.html


Smith and Wesson. In fact let one man protect himself with prayers and the othe man protect himself with Smith and Wesson, and so who is stilll standing at the end of the day.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Samuelxcs

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 669
  • Darwins +6/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • The oldest and strongest emotion of humans is fear
    • Fallen Angels
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 09:13:19 AM »
who would protect us from evil people?


oooh,who would protect us from vampires?

I'd prefer to rely on Buffy or Blade.  &)

Or you could just kill them yourself, I would if necessary.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naïve forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
-Thomas Szasz

Offline gonegolfing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1224
  • Darwins +23/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • God ?...Don't even get me started !
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2011, 09:30:19 AM »
who would protect us from evil people?

like these -

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/ulloa.html

http://wanderling.tripod.com/osorio.html


Quote
if god doesn't exist

^^^^wouldn't the world be exactly the way it is ? ....Yes  ;)
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2011, 10:20:46 AM »
who would protect us from evil people?


oooh,who would protect us from vampires?

I'd prefer to rely on Buffy or Blade.  &)

Or you could just kill them yourself, I would if necessary.

so would I, if they existed. I'm quite an expert on how to accomplish that.

As it is, imaginary people to kill imaginary things  ;D
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2011, 12:03:28 PM »
who would protect us from evil people?
like these -
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/ulloa.html
http://wanderling.tripod.com/osorio.html

If you mean protecting us from psychedelic drugs from Mexico there are these people:

LINK

If you mean protecting us from alleged practitioners of magick there are these people:

LINK




Offline Samothec

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 585
  • Darwins +49/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2011, 03:11:16 AM »
who would protect us from evil people?

like these -

(links to sites about supposed magic users snipped)

This is one of those things that surprises me about religious types - needing to avoid magic or even fiction about magic (Harry Potter, D&D, etc). The only 'magicians' are the stage magician/illusionist. Any others are fake or "working their magic" by psychologically manipulating people. So these religious people saying you need god to defend yourself against fiction. Doesn't that pretty directly say that your god is fictional then?
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2011, 06:09:44 AM »
Where's TomT to comment with one of his unmemorable blank verse poems?

Crossreference:  The Onion


Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12525
  • Darwins +324/-84
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #21 on: December 17, 2011, 02:35:28 PM »
Doesn't the Bible state that Biblegod allows Satan just to roam around Earth all he wants, doing whatever he wants?  I mean, so, is Biblegod really protecting its flock when it allows what most Christians (or all) consider to be the most evil of them all baddies to do whatever it wants to earthlings?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Bluefishng

  • Novice
  • Posts: 1
  • Darwins +0/-1
  • WWGHA Member
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2011, 04:05:46 PM »
The God-Idea

The reality or validity of belief in God is based on man's understanding capacity and the maturity of the mind.
 

The Development of the God-idea

To trace the origin and development of the God-idea, one must go back to the time when civilization was still in its infancy and modern science was still unknown. Primitive people, out of fear of and admiration towards natural phenomena, had believed in different spirits and gods. They used their belief in spirit and gods to form religions of their own. According to their respective circumstances and understanding capacity different people worshipped different gods and founded different faiths.

At the beginning of the God-idea, people worshipped many gods--gods of trees, streams, lightning, storm, winds, the sun and all other terrestrial phenomena. These gods were related to each and every act of nature. Then gradually man began to attribute to these gods, sex and form as well as the physical and mental characteristics of human beings. Human attributes were given to the gods: love, hate, jealousy, fear, pride, envy and other emotions found among human beings. From all these gods, there slowly grew a realization that the phenomena of the universe were not many but were One. This understanding gave rise to the monotheistic god of recent ages.

In the process of development, the God-idea went through a variety of changing social and intellectual climates. It was regarded by different men in different ways. Some idealized god as the King of Heaven and Earth; they had a conception of god as a person. Others thought of god as an abstract principle. Some raised the ideal of Supreme deity to the highest heaven, while others brought it down to the lowest depths of the earth. Some pictured god in a paradise, while others made an idol and worshipped it. Some want so far as to say that there is no salvation without god?no matter how much good you do, you will not receive the fruits of your actions unless you act out of a faith in god. The Atheists said, 'No' and went on to affirm that god did not really exist at all. The Skeptics or Agnostics said, 'We do not or we cannot know.' The Positivists say that the God-idea was a meaningless problem since the idea of the term god 'was not clear'. Thus there grew a variety of ideas and beliefs and names for the God-idea: pantheism, idolatry, belief in a formless god, and belief in many gods and goddesses.

Even the monotheistic god of recent times has gone through a variety of changes as it passed through different nations and people. The Hindu god is quite different from gods of other faiths. Thus numerous religions came into existence: each one differed greatly from the other in the end, and each one says that 'God is One'.

The God-idea and Creation

As each religion came into existence and developed around the God-idea, religion developed its own particular explanation of creation. Thus the God-idea became associated with various myths. People used the God-idea as a vehicle for their explanation of the existence of man and the nature of the universe.

Today, intelligent men, who have carefully reviewed all the available facts, have come to the conclusion that, like the God-idea, the creation of myths must be regarded as an evolution of the human imagination which began with the misunderstanding of the phenomena of nature. These misunderstandings were rooted in the fear and ignorance of primitive man. Even today, man still retains his primitive interpretations of creation. In the light of recent, scientific thinking, the theological definition of god is vague and hence has no place in the contemporary creation theories or myths.

If man is created by an external source, then he must belong to that source and not to himself. According to Buddhism, man is responsible for everything he does. Thus Buddhists have no reason to believe that man came into existence in the human form through any external sources. They believe that man is here today because of his own action. He is neither punished nor rewarded by anyone but himself according to his own good and bad action. In the process of evolution, the human being came into existence. However, there are no Buddha-words to support the belief that the world was created by anybody. The scientific discovery of gradual development of the world-system conforms with the Buddha's Teachings.

Human Weakness and the Concept of God

Both the concept of God and its associated creation myths have been protected and defended by believers who need these ideas to justify their existence and usefulness to human society. All the believers claim to have received their respective scriptures as Revelation; in other words, they all profess to come directly from the one God. Each God-religion claims that it stands for Universal Peace and Universal Brotherhood and other such high ideals.

However great the ideals of the religious might be, the history of the world shows that the religions up to the present day have also helped in spreading superstitions. Some have stood against science and the advancement of knowledge, leading to ill-feelings, murders and wars. In this respect, the God-religions have failed in their attempt to enlighten mankind. For example, in certain countries when people pray for mercy, their hands are stained with the blood of the morbid sacrifices of innocent animals and sometimes, even fellow human beings. These poor and helpless creatures were slaughtered at the desecrated altars of imaginary and imperceptible gods. It has taken a long time for people to understand the futility of such cruel practices in the name of religion. The time has come for them to realize that the path of real purification is through love and understanding.

Dr. G. Dharmasiri in his book 'Buddhist critique of the Christian Concept of God' has mentioned, 'I see that though the notion of God contains sublime moral strands, it also has certain implications that are extremely dangerous to the humans as well as to the other beings on this planet.

'One major threat to humanity is the blindfold called 'authority' imposed on the humans by the concept of God. All theistic religions consider authority as ultimate and sacred. It was this danger that the Buddha was pointing at in the Kalama Sutta. At the moment, human individuality and freedom are seriously threatened by various forms of authorities. Various 'authorities' have been trying to make 'you' a follower. On top of all our 'traditional' authorities, a new form of authority has emerged in the name of 'science'. And lately, the mushrooming new religions and the menace of the Gurus(as typified by Jim Jones), have become live threats to the individual's human freedom and dignity. The Buddha's eternal plea is for you to become a Buddha, and He showed, in a clearly rational way, that each and every one of us has the perfect potentiality and capacity to attain that ideal.'

God-religions offer no salvation without God. Thus a man might conceivably have climbed to the highest pinnacle of virtue, and he might have led a righteous way of life, and he might even have climbed to the highest level of holiness, yet he is to be condemned to eternal hell just because he did not believe in the existence of God. On the other hand, a man might have sinned deeply and yet, having made a late repentance, he can be forgiven and therefore 'saved'. From the Buddhist point of view, there is no justification in this kind of doctrine.

Despite the apparent contradictions of the God-religions, it is not deemed advisable to preach a Godless doctrine since the belief in god has also done a tremendous service to mankind, especially in places where the god concept is desirable. This belief in god has helped mankind to control his animal nature. And much help has been granted to others in the name of god. At the same time, man feels insecure without the belief in god. He finds protection and inspiration when that belief is in his mind. The reality or validity of such a belief is based on man's understanding capacity and spiritual maturity.

However, religion should also concern our practical life. It is to be used as a guide to regulate our conduct in the world. Religion tells us what to do and what not to do. If we do not follow a religion sincerely, mere religious labels or belief in god do not serve us in our daily life.

On the other hand, if the followers of various religions are going to quarrel and to condemn other beliefs and practices -- especially to prove or disprove the existence of God -- and if they are going to harbor anger towards other religions because of their different religious views, then they are creating enormous disharmony amongst the various religious communities. Whatever religious difference we have, it is our duty to practise tolerance, patience and understanding. It is our duty to respect the other man's religious belief even if we cannot accommodate it; tolerance is necessary for the sake of harmonious and peaceful living.

However, it does not serve any purpose to introduce this concept of god to those who are not ready to appreciate it. To some people this belief is not important to lead a righteous life. There are many who lead a noble life without such belief while amongst believers there are many who violate the peace and happiness of innocent people.

Buddhists can also co-operate with those who hold this concept of god, if they use this concept for the peace, happiness and welfare of mankind but not with those who abuse this concept by threatening people in order to introduce this belief just for their own benefit and with ulterior motives.

For more than 2,500 years, all over the world, Buddhists have practised and introduced Buddhism very peacefully without the necessity of sustaining the concept of a creator of God. And they will continue to sustain this religion in the same manner without disturbing the followers of other religions.

Therefore, with due respect to other religionists, it must be mentioned that any attempt to introduce this concept into Buddhism is unnecessary. Let Buddhists maintain their belief since it is harmless to others and, let the basic Teachings of the Buddha remain.

From time immemorial, Buddhists have led a peaceful religious life without incorporating the particular concept of God. They should be capable of sustaining their particular religion without the necessity, at this juncture, of someone trying to force something down their throats against their will. Having full confidence in their Buddha Dhamma, Buddhists should be permitted to work and seek their own salvation without any undue interference from other sources. Others can uphold their beliefs and concepts, Buddhist will uphold theirs, without any rancor. We do not challenge others in regard to their religious persuasions, we expect reciprocal treatment in regard to our own beliefs and practices.

http://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/main.htmhttp://www.budsas.org/ebud/whatbudbeliev/main.htm

Offline velkyn

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 15420
  • Darwins +169/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • You're wearing the juice, aren't you?"
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2011, 04:24:17 PM »
Bluefishing, this reads like a lot like the usual attempt to claim that you and only you have the "right" answer.  Rather than a lot of vagaries, can you put this in your own words?

I do beleive that there are some folks fairly familiar with Buddhism here on the forum.

Quote
Despite the apparent contradictions of the God-religions, it is not deemed advisable to preach a Godless doctrine since the belief in god has also done a tremendous service to mankind, especially in places where the god concept is desirable. This belief in god has helped mankind to control his animal nature. And much help has been granted to others in the name of god. At the same time, man feels insecure without the belief in god. He finds protection and inspiration when that belief is in his mind. The reality or validity of such a belief is based on man's understanding capacity and spiritual maturity.
]

religion has also done a tremendous amount of harm to mankind, making him worse than animals.  There is no good reason to keep it.  Not even if it makes people "feel" good.   
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3894
  • Darwins +258/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2011, 05:56:40 PM »
The God-Idea

The reality or validity of belief in God is based on man's understanding capacity and the maturity of the mind.
 


I agree with that. All that follows is appeals to ignorance and special pleading, all wrapped around the 3rd person weasel way of talking. How about evidence instead?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline kin hell

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5379
  • Darwins +152/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • - .... . .-. . /.. ... / -. --- / --. --- -.. ...
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2011, 08:54:54 PM »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline RaymondKHessel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1914
  • Darwins +73/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Born with insight, and a raised fist.
Re: if god doesn't exist
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2011, 09:45:28 AM »
The God-Idea... Blahblahblah

Wow, I'm impressed. You can cut & paste.

Use your own words, ya lazy superfulous hedgehog. I'm not reading that mountain of shit just because you thought it would be profound to drop a wall of text in the middle of a thread.

Meanwhile... At the OP... How can a grown ass person (persumeably) be so damn infantile? They're like little kids, hiding under the bed, terrified of boogiemen and wizards and demons n' shit...  Oooooh! Ooga booga! Congratulations, your religion has completely retardified you.

Fucking Carlos Fucking Castanada. Give me a break. See, THIS is why I openly mock religion lol.
Born with insight, and a raised fist.