Lowes vs Home Depot vs Islam vs Florida Family Values

[shnozzola]

From the article -
            "In an email sent to Lowe’s and other advertisers, FFA  ( Florida Family Values ) refers to All-American Muslim —  a show which follows the members of five families as they deal with the everyday difficulties of being Muslim in America — as “propaganda that riskily hides the Islamic agenda’s clear and present danger to American liberties and traditional values.”

            "Outrage over the move continues to grow, however. One Twitter user likely spoke for many when he asked, “will you next consider KKKs demands to pull ads from BET?”

            It’s worth noting that The Home Depot, the largest home improvement retailer in the US, is still supporting the show with its ads."

http://tumblr.thedailywh.at/post/13992641466/this-is-all-kinds-of-wrong-of-the-day-at-the

[Historicity]

Thanx for the heads up, Shnozzola.  I live in Florida and coincidentally I have to buy some stuff to complete a project.  I know what store I'll go to -- the one that stands up to the Florida Family Association. 

[Nick]

I usually get my stuff from Lowes...guess the extra mile to Home Depot will be worth it now.

[Traveler]

Lowe's and Home Depot are right across the street from each other in my town. In the past I've had a very tiny preference for Home Depot, but my preference has now shot up to total. Lowes has lost me.

[Chronos]

I prefer Lowe's to Home Depot, and that preference will continue. I'm not happy that Lowe's didn't stand up to the Fuck Face Assholes, err, sorry, the Florida Family Association, and continue to advertise on that show, but as long as Lowe's treats its own employees and customers fairly, that's enough for me. The winds of advertising change constantly, but treating your own with decency and respect is a long-term requirement.

Chik-Fil-A, on the other hand .... ugh ... a fast food restaurant with better than average food quality and the best service in the fast-food industry ... doesn't treat all of it's "associates" (employees and/or franchisees) with fairness and decency, unless those associates are also fundamentalist Christians. So, I will refrain from spending my atheist money[1] in a fundamentalist food establishment.

Don't be gay at Chik-Fil-A!

1.	My money is atheist money based on where I choose to spend it, but sadly, not because it is devoid of religious notations. *sigh*

[Traveler]

...Chik-Fil-A, on the other hand .... ugh ... a fast food restaurant with better than average food quality and the best service in the fast-food industry ... doesn't treat all of it's "associates" (employees and/or franchisees) with fairness and decency, unless those associates are also fundamentalist Christians. So, I will refrain from spending my atheist money[1] in a fundamentalist food establishment.

Don't be gay at Chik-Fil-A!

1.	My money is atheist money based on where I choose to spend it, but sadly, not because it is devoid of religious notations. *sigh*

That's good to know, I'll happily boycott them too. Ironically, Chik-Fil-A is right beside the Home Depot, and across the street from Lowes. Perhaps we should start a thread about unfair practices so we can make informed decisions of where to put our money.

[Chronos]

To my knowledge, which could be incorrect, even if you are not gay at Chik-Fil-A, you are required to participate in prayer circles. I haven't heard specifically whether they have an atheist opt-out at Chik-Fil-A, but I have a feeling that they try to figure out what you are before they employ you.

Even if they did have an atheist opt-out (or Muslim-, Jewish-, Wiccan-, etc, opt-out), it is still a practice that serves no business purpose and causes other associates to be ostracized. I can imagine that at some point a failure has been blamed on the lack of full team participation in prayer.


Oh, and as unpopular as this sounds, we should boycott the NFL. The #1 worst offender of employer-based or employer-allowed practices.

[Traveler]

...required to participate in prayer circles...

I don't think I realized how fortunate I was in my work. When I was an engineer such requirements would have gotten whomever ordered them sent to personnel for action. We had strong principles of valueing differences. The theory was that differences were a positive thing: that the more varied our work force, the more innovative we were likely to be. I took those attitudes for granted, because that's how I was raised, and that's how New England was in general, at least where I lived. It's very disappointing to me to see the pendulum swing backwards, and to see how other areas of the country are so bigoted.

Our group was a wonderful mix of various races, religions, sexual orientations, physical abilities, and much more. It was great.

[Brakeman]

Personally, any dollar that doesn't go to religious indoctrination is a plus for me, regardless if it is for all of the wrong reasons. Now we just have to convince Lowes to not support any christian org and Home Depot (Jewish owned I've heard) not to do the same. I have a hard problem with any show that supports ignorant superstitions of any flavor. Dang it this is 2011! We went to the moon 40+ years ago, It's time to put away our imaginary friends and grow up. I don't want our economy supporting anyone's delusion, I don't want anyone spending money on astrology because in this day and age it is a pure con game, we see that now, yet we hesitate to see religion in the same light, even though it is every bit as much a con game as Uri Geller.

[free]

I'm sending Lowe's an email to express their loss of my business as a result of this.  I encourage you all to do the same, it never seems like much, but enough people can make a dent.

[Chronos]

I don't think I realized how fortunate I was in my work. When I was an engineer such requirements would have gotten whomever ordered them sent to personnel for action. We had strong principles of valueing differences. The theory was that differences were a positive thing: that the more varied our work force, the more innovative we were likely to be.

The greater the variety of backgrounds and experiences, the greater the solutions a group can provide.

[changeling]

Both sides of this issue piss me off.
The fact that Lowes caved to pressure from some religious butt heads,
and the fact that according to some senator they do not have the right
to decide with whom they place their advertisment.

I read somewhere that some congressman or senator is bringing up charges
against them and trying to make it some congressional offense to pull your
adds from a show that you  don't like if it is a religious show. (My loose interpretation.)

[jetson]

I have emailed Lowes.  Dumb-asses.

[Nick]

They have their nuts being squeezed from both sides now.

[joebbowers]

From NBC News today-- "Besides Lowe's, the FFA claimed that rival home-improvement brand The Home Depot will no longer run commercials during the show. But Home Depot spokesman Stephen Holmes said the company had never planned to run ads during "All-American Muslim." "

I don't support the FFA, but that doesn't necessarily make them wrong about this show being dangerous to America. Islam is probably the most dangerous religion, with a stated goal of taking over and instituting Sharia law in every corner of the world, as their Koran instructs them. Of course, many Muslims will deny this, but remember Mohammed instructs believers that it is ok to lie if it furthers the cause of Islam.

I know some people will come to deny that, so I'll just let the muslims speak for themselves. If you still don't believe it, you're part of the reason they're winning.

[free]

joebbowers,  I think you'll find that you're talking about extremists.  I could post a bunch of pictures of the Westboro Baptist Church protesting funerals for gay people and military casualties, but that wouldn't be a reason to think all Christians are like that.  There are extremists in every religion, and you can't group the average person in with that.  I know plenty of Muslim people (living in the shadow of NYC you get a lot of diversity) and they are just normal people who want to live their lives the same way we do.  They aren't planning attacks or trying to take over the world, much like the people in the show.

[joebbowers]

That's exactly what they want you to think. Your muslim friends are simply lying in wait.

And I don't know if you're making the point you think you are by mentioning the Westboro Baptist Church. They are extremists, whereas most muslims are fundamentalists.

The difference is that Fred Phelps and his group are considered outcasts by other Christians, ie. extreme. The majority of Christians live in developed countries with secular governments, they are free to worship (or not worship) any way they choose. It's a well known fact that most Christians have only a passing familiarity at best with the actual content of the bible. Most atheists are better educated and have a deeper knowledge of theology.

However in Islam, jihad against the infidel and the establishment of a worldwide Islamic state is not extreme, it is the foundation of the religion, ie. fundamental. A huge number of Muslims live under theocratic governments that enforce strict religious practices. To abandon, insult, or even to question Islam is punishable by death. These are people who know quote well what is written in the Koran, and the basic theme is convert or kill the infidel, wherever you may find him.

Not every member of the KKK burns crosses or hangs black people, and if you were to ask a member what their organization is about I'm sure they would tell you they are non-violent and peaceful. But if they had a blank slate to do as they wanted without reprecussion, the trees would be heavy with hanging bodies. And while not every single KKK member would be out prowling the streets with a noose, those that don't would support it or at least turn a blind eye.

What do your Muslim friends think about Shariah law? Do they believe it's wrong to force Islam on others against their will? Don't speak for them, ask them. But remember they will most likely simply tell you what you want to hear. Lying to further the cause of Islam is honorable.

[free]

Before I continue, I am a very well educated atheist.

The majority of Christians live in developed countries with secular governments, they are free to worship (or not worship) any way they choose.

The entirety of the Muslims in question in this thread live in the same developed country with the same developed government.  Who are also free to worship or not how they want.  Just as Christians, Jews and Atheists.

[jedweber]

That's exactly what they want you to think. Your muslim friends are simply lying in wait.
...
What do your Muslim friends think about Shariah law? Do they believe it's wrong to force Islam on others against their will? Don't speak for them, ask them. But remember they will most likely simply tell you what you want to hear. Lying to further the cause of Islam is honorable.

What's the point of asking them, if you've already decided they're lying? You've made your claim unfalsifiable, by declaring in advance that any contrary evidence is most likely false.

I think your claims verge on paranoid nonsense when speaking of the majority of American Muslims. There are an estimated 800,000 of them in New York City, and I have dealings with Muslims all the time. They tend to cause little trouble...in many neighborhoods they live side-by-side with orthodox Jews, and yet incidents of violence or communal tension are very rare, practically unheard of. I'm sure that some of them hold views I would find extreme and repugnant, but where is the evidence to support your claims that the majority hold extremist views and are just lying in wait to commit violence?

[velkyn]

That's exactly what they want you to think. Your muslim friends are simply lying in wait.

Wow, talk about  "lying"  

Good ol' Joe knows a magic secret on how people "really" are, ooooh I should be impressed by the classic paranoia.  People are out to get me because I'm important, really truly I am.   

[Nam]

I've been boycotting Home Depot since they put the Scotty's out of businees near where I live.  Damn them!  They are the Wal-Mart of hardware stores!  Or is that Loew's?  I think that's Loew's.  I mean, why does a hardware store have a gas station?

-Nam

[Brakeman]

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."
is roughly equal to:

"Never underestimate the power of religiously deluded idiots in large groups"

By the way, I've heard that the Belgian mass murderer, Nordine Amrani, was a Muslim angry at the sentencing to prison of a family for the honor killing of their daughter. 

I'm sure this can't be true, as Islam is the delusion of love.

[jaimehlers]

I didn't realize that Chick-Fil-A pulled that kind of nonsense.  I'll have to check on this.  For one thing, the public university I graduated from has a Chick-Fil-A on its premises, and if they do require their employees to be practicing Christians, then it arguably violates the First Amendment, since public universities are directly and closely associated with the federal government.

[Chronos]

I didn't realize that Chick-Fil-A pulled that kind of nonsense.  I'll have to check on this.  For one thing, the public university I graduated from has a Chick-Fil-A on its premises, and if they do require their employees to be practicing Christians, then it arguably violates the First Amendment, since public universities are directly and closely associated with the federal government.

Chick-Fil-A restaurants are owned by franchisees, and the people who work at the restaurants are employees of the franchisees. I'm betting those owners usually don't lead prayer circles. However, when the franchisees go to meetings at the corporate office of Chick-Fil-A, I'm betting there are some prayer circles happening. Those who work in the corporate office would be employees, prayer circles and all.

[shnozzola]

The latest..............

By MAE ANDERSON
AP Retail Writer

NEW YORK (AP) - Home improvement chain Lowe's plans to stick by its decision to yank its ads from a reality TV show about American Muslims amid growing debate over the move.

California Sen. Ted Lieu said Sunday that he is considering calling for a boycott of Lowe's Cos., sparking criticism of the chain from both inside and outside of the Muslim community.

On social media web site Twitter, actor Kal Penn began directing people to a petition on signon.org in support of the TLC cable network show, "All-American Muslim." By Monday afternoon, there were about 9,200 signatures.

U.S. Representative Keith Ellison of Minnesota, who is Muslim, released a statement Monday condemning Lowe's for choosing "to uphold the beliefs of a fringe hate group and not the creed of the First Amendment."

And Democratic state Rep. Rashida Tlaib of Detroit, the first Muslim elected to the Michigan Legislature, voiced her concern in a letter to Lowe's CEO Robert Niblock.

"I told them I was extremely disappointed that you give credibility to these hate groups," Tlaib said. "People of Muslim faith are being attacked. It's disappointing, disheartening."

Lowe's, based in Mooresville, N.C., said it stands by its statement on Sunday that it pulled the ads after the show became a "lightning rod for people to voice complaints from a variety of perspectives - political, social and otherwise."

"All-American Muslim," which premiered last month, chronicles the lives of five families who live in and near Dearborn, Mich., a Detroit suburb with a large Muslim and Arab-American population. It airs Sundays on TLC and ends its first season Jan. 8.

TLC spokeswoman Laurie Goldberg said the show has garnered a little over a million viewers per week.

"We stand behind the show `All-American Muslim,"' she said. "We're happy the show has strong advertising support."

Lowe's stopped its commercials after a conservative group known as the Florida Family Association emailed companies to ask them to do so. The group said the program is "propaganda that riskily hides the Islamic agenda's clear and present danger to American liberties and traditional values."

Florida Family Association, based in Tampa, Fla., said that more than 60 companies that it emailed, from Amazon to McDonalds, pulled their ads. So far, Lowe's is the only major company to confirm that it pulled ads from the show.

Amazon, McDonald's and other advertisers did not immediately return calls from The Associated Press seeking comment. Atlanta-based Home Depot, which was cited by Florida Family Association as a company that stopped advertising, said Monday that it never intended to run any ads during the show. But spokesman Stephen Holmes said one commercial ran "inadvertently and without our knowledge."

The controversy highlights the fine line companies walk when they select shows to advertise on.

Branding expert Laura Ries said Lowe's made two mistakes. The first was advertising during a show that could be construed as controversial. The second was pulling advertising too quickly.

"For a big national brand like Lowe's, they've always got to be incredibly careful when advertising during any show that could be deemed controversial," she said. "Will it seriously damage the brand in the long term? Probably not. But it is a serious punch in the stomach."

Overall, analysts said the furor is unlikely to damage Lowe's brand in the long term.

"For a company that generates $50 billion in annual revenue, I don't view this as something that will have a meaningful impact," said Morningstar analyst Peter Wahlstrom. "I'm hopeful this blows over and I'm certain management is as well."

Still, some worry Lowe's ad flap could hurt Muslims, particularly those among the 150,000 to 200,000 who live in the Detroit area. Earlier this year, Florida pastor Terry Jones held an anti-Islam rally outside Dearborn City Hall after being barred from protesting outside a Muslim mosque in the city.

The burning of a Quran in March at Jones' church in Florida led to a series of violent protests in Afghanistan that killed more than a dozen people.

"Metro Detroit and Dearborn have been the focal point of a number of anti-Muslim movements," said Dawud Walid, executive director of Council on American-Islamic Relations' Michigan chapter. "There are organized forces in our society that want to marginalize American Muslims to the point where they don't want to see any portrayals of Muslims that regular Americans can connect to."

Now if we could get a reality show with 5 atheist families living in Texas, or, 5 illegal Mexican families living outside Sheriff Joe Arpaio's police station in New Mexico.  We need a network and companies with the balls to do those shows.

 Man, the FUCKING INTOLERANCE!!!!!!!!!

[jetson]

It's kind of  a shitty situation for some atheists, I think.  I have to support the rights of TV show producers and stations to broadcast whatever they choose (without breaking any laws), but I would rather they not pander to delusional non-sense, especially when it brings out the bigotry and hatred of opposing groups.  I know there is nothing that can be done about it, any more than stopping the stupid reality shows and celebrity gossip that fill our lives from these same channels.

It seems clear to me that the problem lies with the obviously ridiculous claims from the Christian group that Islam is taking over the country.  But I can bet there are tons of people who would ban the show if it were their choice.  Sad.

Why can't humans in modern societies explore humanity in ways that do not draw barriers between groups?  Fucking apes.

[pingnak]

Lowes & Home Depot are almost always very next to each other.  In fact, wherever one is built, the other will soon appear.

In my case, Loze is about 1/2 mile nearer than Home Despot. 

Loze definitely had the more honest and straight forward project management (i.e. getting estimates to have work contracted) when I needed it.  But this probably varies from store to store.  Your mileage will vary, according to the kinds of local managers you have.  I'm all for doing it myself... but when the project is big or expensive enough for the materials to be more expensive than the labor, it's so much better to have someone do it who already knows how.

Back on topic, I don't fucking hate Islam, any more than I fucking hate Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.  There are violent fucktard examples and offshoots in EVERY religion.

For Christian fundies to go off is a minor positive for Loze.  But this is just the usual tempest in a teacup.

I go to Loze first, because it's a little closer, and less inconvenient than Home Despot.  If Home Despot were closer, they'd be first.  But if it's not a trivial purchase, I check both, and others online, and as applicable, get estimates and compare warranties.

Best thing for lowest comparable price always wins.

[Historicity]

In my case, Loze is about 1/2 mile nearer than Home Despot.

A half mile farther for me.  And close enough to the Ace Hardware that when I couldn't get what I want at Home Depot, I drive a little farther to Lowe's and if they don't have what I want, I stay parked at Lowe's and walk to Ace.

"Ace is the place with the helpful hardware man!"  One of their assistants is a woman, but she makes a point of being butch.

Dang!  If Sears were on the same street I'd check them out the Craftsman stuff more often.

[pingnak]

Sears is what I could walk to from home.  But I'd have to go five miles 90 degrees off from my starting point to get to a really small Ace, and have no Home Despot/Loze combination for another ten miles of generic strip mall repeats in that direction, versus head about five miles for the Loze/Home Despot that are nearer.

But I seldom need anything from Sears.  Everything is extra premium priced, but the same Chinese made shit with a different brand sticker as everyone else sells.  And I take (barely) good enough care of the tools not to need to replace them much (or is it that I don't use them often?).  The one fitted plastic box of Craftsman mechanics tools hasn't needed replacing, anyways.  So if I need a socks, electronics, tools and an appliance, Sears is certainly a possible stop, but probably not the last stop, because the sticker shock usually gives me pause.