Hi kaziglu bey,
You’re completely correct.
I WIN!!!!! lol just kidding. Although, that statement, if taken out of context.... nevermind. Really tired from a long day, so I'm a little silly.
I apologize for not putting that part at the beginning of the post. It would have saved you a lot of time and hassle.
Oh no problem at all! I'm unfortunately unemployed, so I have plenty of time on my hands. I prefer mental exercise to physical exercise anyways. I just couldn't believe that you would type all of that, and not expect me to respond. Like, yeah right.
I’m sure you’re right that some of these points won’t be reconciled. I recognize that from the beginning and that’s not my issue with re-hashing sub-topics. Whether we agree or not though, the conversation can move to a deeper level by addressing all the points of each side, rather than re-stating the same points over and over. We’re doing this on some sub-topics, but on others we’re not. My guess is that it’s for two reasons: one is that there was such a big gap and we have to do extra work to “catch up” and the other is that we have so many sub-topics going on in our conversation that, again, it’s extra work to keep things straight. If all this back and forth is only a slam at each other, like it is with other posters, then the extra work is silly and wasted. All the work I do for a single post (and for some posts I do quite a bit of research and thinking so that I am confident what I post is accurate) is silly and wasted.
However, if the conversation is one of sharing our thoughts, experiences and feelings in order to work towards a mutual understanding of where we agree and disagree, even if not complete mutual agreement, then the extra work is required.
I would say that you certainly do seem to put a lot of thought and effort into your posts. I don't think I could rightly accuse you otherwise. But, on the places where we seem to reach the most fundamental disagreements, I think that it is safe to say that, given two entirely different current worldviews, our perspectives will be different to an extent that we just will not agree.
What I call “shotgun posts” made by others do not improve our world or make us better people. These are two kinds of posts, drive-by posts where someone throws something in without knowing the context and then you don’t see them again unless someone fires back. The other “shotgun posts” are the ones with topics, attacks and snide remarks all over the place like the spray of a shotgun. The purpose of each is to disrupt and distract. Their ego is so great that they think they are the only ones with the answers and they don’t listen to anyone else unless that person agrees with them. I don’t want to post like that or respond to them.
I don't deny that this happens on this forum, but it seems to me at least that the theists are often the more guilty (or, perhaps sinful?) in this regard than atheists. Given what I have said about perspective though, I fully anticipate that you will disagree.
Anyway, I’m done with the soapbox. Thank you for your patience.
I have the patience of a Jedi.
Let me explain what I mean by the “off-topic” comments. One example is we were talking about how to read the Bible in light of Jesus Christ. (Which, by the way, was already off-topic. ) You asked “But the participants in the OT did not have Jesus, why shouldn't we read it without Jesus?” I responded with two reasons why. Instead of addressing the reasons and continuing with “how to read the Bible in light of Christ”, I see the response as taking another direction, that is “there would have been no need of a savior if God hadn’t done all the things he did.”
So yes, you are correct. “Jesus, Jewish people or God” are not off-topic in a conversation about Christianity. However, Christianity is a huge topic and our conversations, to be productive, have to be, and have been, much more focused. We can’t come to a mutual understanding of agreements and disagreements about, for example, “how to read the Bible in the light of Christ,” if we don’t stick to “how to read the Bible in the light of Christ.”
Indeed, I thought that you would be discussing this. I think this is where there is a fundamental difference of perspective, and I will demonstrate what it is. You believe that the OT clearly should be interpreted in light of Jesus
. In other words, you accept what the Bible says, and the interpretation of it that is most familiar to you
. I believe that since the OT writers clearly did not know Jesus, nor were they expecting his arrival, nor were they concerned with worshiping him for fear of hell, and since many of the OT laws and regs were totally not in concordance with what Jesus taught, even though one of the things that he taught was that the OT law was still the real deal, and we can't submit questions to the Celestial Inquiry Panel to clear matters up (which would be, you know, SUPER helpful, and would have prevented thousands of years of bloodthirsty religious violence), and we can't be sure if we are supposed to love our enemies or utterly destroy them, which are two completely opposite positions, yet both are mandated by God in the Bible, who inspired the OT which we are supposed to ignore, but only sometimes, the 10 commandments are cool and all that, but the rest of it is just old Jewish stuff, lets just interpret that in the light of Jesus. DO YOU SEE HOW I AM HAVING DIFFICULTY ACCEPTING YOUR POSITION HERE!!?! LOL sorry for shouting, it's just that I think it really is such an important and essential point to address. That is just a small sample of the issues that need to be rectified before I can concede to say "Yes, let us seriously look at how the rape, ethnic cleansing, and horrific mass murders of the OT are Good and Just and Righteous in the Light of Jesus, Our Lord the Savior." I can't shut off my thought process. To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, I could only currently do what you are asking me, " at the low price of the surrender of my critical faculties".
With that said, if I can pick the topic of our conversation going forward, then I’d like to stay with that. In fact, I’m going to stop this thread and start a new one.
That's cool with me. Fresh start never hurts. I can kinda see this going nowhere at this point, which is kind of what I think you think too.
It’s now Holy Saturday and Judas has already done his thing.
Sure, and every single Christian would be totally fucked if he didn't.
Tonight begins Easter when Jesus rose from the dead and changed the world forever.
Grab your firearms, its the Zombie Invasion!
Let’s move from the one to the other.
Besides the poetic reason , here’s the practical reason. When people read the OT parts you keep referring to, they have questions. Everyone does not just atheists. Atheists, or those inclined to atheism, read it and ask, “How can a good and gracious God do this?” They rebel (just like Judas) and say, “I am so much better than this God. If this is what he is, then I want nothing to do with him.” And God let’s them have their will.
Well, that's YOUR interpretation of what happens. Here is mine:
"Gee, this book called the Bible is just nuts. The apparent main protagonist (and, oddly enough, also the main antagonist), God, spends half of the book demanding that people worship and follow him, and completely destroy anyone who doesn't, man or woman, young or old, strong or infirm, sane or insane, born or unborn, good or evil, just or cruel, as well as demanding that animals be needlessly butchered and burned in his name, so that he can delight in the aroma and be entertained by his servants as they splatter animal blood all over everything while praising him for allowing them to do all of this. God gives out 10 commandments, which are supposed to be the absolute basis of morality, of which 4 are nothing but God saying "ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!!!!!!!!!!! and have nothing to do with morality at all, just God's Ego Trip. Be nice to mom and dad, ok that's good, but nothing about not abusing children, do not kill, ok thats cool too, but there's no do not rape
. Do not steal, good good, don't bear false witness, very good, don't commit adultery, ok that's perhaps good advice, but doesn't really need to be legislated. Then we have what can only be considered thought crime, as in do not covet. It's the very thought of wanting something someone else has. Not even wanting to steal it, just wanting to have it. In other words, a desire for something better than you already have. So there a whole lot of ambition and motivation, driven by a desire to also have nice things that other people have. Note that this commandment also treats women as the property of men, just as an ass or a slave. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, slavery isn't forbidden by this God either. Wow. What a guy. People actually believe that the character, God, as described in this book, is real, and did all of that stuff, and raises people from the dead, and demands foreskins, and will punish you forever if you don't bow down to him, is REAL?!!?!? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! They probably also believe in the talking snake thing, lol, bet they believe Harry Potter is for real too, and they go around hunting Horcruxes HAHAHAHAHAHAHA"
That's a rough idea of what is going in the mind of this Atheist. It's no different than a critical examination of any book. It is just as absurd
as believing that Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban is real, and that you don't watch out, you will receive the Demetor's Kiss. That is how it appears to me. If you came to me, and told me, in all seriousness, and with utter conviction, and with a warning tone, pointing to a clearly fictitious document as evidence, that Sirius Black had escaped from Azkaban, I would be doing you a favor to have you institutionalized. I'm not saying that you should be institutionalized, I think actually that you are fairly sane and reasonable, but I just think that you have somehow reached a horribly wrong and silly conclusion (Sirius Black prison break,or God is Real) based on horrible evidence (Prisoner of Azkaban, or the Bible), and somehow are just entirely unable to see that. You have to entirely de-activate your BS detector to buy into any of the claims in the Bible. For the love of Pasta, it says that insects have FOUR legs. It says Pi=3. It says giants are totally real, and so are dragons. Snakes talk. A 600 year old guy got over 400.000 species of beetle, from 6 continents, onto a boat 450 feet long
. God created the whole universe and everything in it out of nothing. But he didn't realize Adam would need a wife, and had to make her out of one of Adam's ribs. You think that any book that could say such things is the path to eternal salvation? Good luck with that. I sincerely mean it. Good luck.
Theists read these parts and ask, “How can a good and gracious God do this?” They submit and say, “You are so much greater than me, God. I don’t understand what this is. Show me more of who you are, so that I can understand.” And God responds with Jesus Christ. He’s the answer to our question and without him God has no answer.
Whereas to me, this is a complete non sequitur, and I don't understand how yet ANOTHER innocent person suffering and dying is supposed to make things all better again. That is just a seriously twisted idea. And if you seriously believed it to be true, wouldn't it require you, in order to do as much actual good as possible, in order to truly imitate Christ, wouldn't YOU have to ensure that you endured at least as significant suffering as your savior? Are you willing to do that? And if you are not willing to do that, what use could your servitude ever possibly mean to him?
It is critical to the understanding of God, the Bible, the world and ourselves to know Jesus Christ. We can explore this in the next thread.
Then how come the people who are most against science, who are the loudest protestors of Darwin and true discovery of the world, have always been those most vocally in support of Jesus?
I won’t start the thread today.
I should hope not, you'd damn well better have some kind of response to that!
I’m already late for other things I have to do, like mow the lawn – darn weather . But I will in the next couple of days. I also will only be spending at most an hour a night on it. That may mean delays, but if I limit myself to that then I can probably post even when things get busy. It doesn’t have to be an all or nothing.
Whatever you can do, life gets in the way sometimes.
Thank you, kaziglu bey, for these conversations. I wish we could be doing this over beers, but we make the best.
Yikes! for a minute there, I thought you said bears. God happens to send his ursine familiars after us blasphemers from time to time, can't be too careful. Hope you have a good night, or whatever time of day it is there.