Hi kaziglu bey,
How’s it going? You and your son doing well?
Unfortunately we are both a little under the weather right now, but should recover quickly. Thanks.
No worries at all. I understand how it gets sometimes. Thank you for coming back. It’s admirable. Others have stopped posting in the thread. I’m not assuming it means they give up, but it is suspicious.
The forum being messed up for several days didn't help, and then it took a few days for me to be inspired.
From the sin perspective it doesn’t matter what we can prove. That’s up to those people and God on their judgment day. From a justice perspective, we do what the system does now, checking for mental illness, right from wrong, etc. My personal opinion is that God would not command someone to kill their own baby.
But like you say, that's just your opinion. You have no way of KNOWING whether or not God would command such a thing. As I have said, the Bible is good evidence that God has no problem killing babies (or having others do it for him). Also, didn't God command Abraham to kill his son? (Granted, his son was not a "baby" and God didn't actually have him go through with it. He still commanded it. Also, how does someone separate mental illness from legitimate commands from God? Why would we have a legal system that punishes things that God could have potentially commanded people to do? I have no answers to these, other than that for me, faith itself is delusion.
You’re right. Those aren’t the literal words of the commandment, but the commandment goes beyond that.
Please support this assertion. I entirely disagree. I know of nothing in the Bible that says that this commandment means more than "don't kill". There may be places where the prophet of the day (whoever is God's #1 dude at the time) say that it is also God's wish not to do whatever, such as rape or murder or what not, but yet that is meaningless to me because God is constantly having his followers rape and murder people. It's seriously almost all they do. Enslave, rape, murder, repeat. The majority of the content of the bible in 4 words.
Jesus came here to fulfill the law.
but "thou shalt not rape" is NOT one of God's laws. Show me where it says that, and if you can, then please explain why thousands upon thousands of females are raped on God's command. How can rape EVER be good?
In the Gospel of Matthew Jesus says
“You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
Mentions NOTHING about not raping people. "Kill" and "angry" and "fool" do not equal rape.
So, yes, particularly since Christ, the commandment is "That shalt not commit any form of violence unto another person or even think of committing violence unto another person."
and what verse does Jesus actually say that?? Certainly not in the one you posted above. Again, this seems to preclude God approved violence (and there's a LOT of it).
That’s not an argument against the analogy. We can very easily regain our divine inheritance through Baptism, the other Sacraments and obedience to God. You may consider that blind faith. I do not.
Well that may be what people believe, but it's not what happens in the real world. Furthermore, not being a millionaire is NOT equal to eternal punishment. The situations are not the same at all. The kids who do not inherit millions or not reduced to a worst possible state. They are just at a normal state. Also, the non millionaire kids are not in that state because someone more powerful than them arbitrarily decided to dick them over, which is the case with God. A person could be a millionaire and lose that money for a lot of reasons, but I doubt that one of the reasons is to screw over their EVERYONE ELSE who ever lives for all eternity.
Same thing. In the Garden of Eden, we were given a divine life on top of our natural life. When we couldn’t handle, we lost it, and returned to the natural life we had before. It’s not a punishment as much as it is a (super)natural consequence.
You've got to be kidding me. It is pretty clear that such things are punishment, and not some (super)natural consequence. Eve (and all other women forever) is punished by having to endure pain in childbirth.
You’re mixing two different things. You’re completely right to say that the natural consequence of eating the fruit is not eternal damnation. Jesus saw to that.
There were a hell of a lot of people between Adam and Eve and Jesus. So they had to suffer all those thousands of years, but everyone after Jesus gets a free pass as long as they submit?
He saved us so that we would NOT be punished forever. If we don’t want that salvation, then we are choosing the punishment. You have before you life and death, which do you choose? I choose life. It’s that simple.
how about this. There are no gods, there is no life after death, it's all a bunch of mind games manipulated by the powerful to strengthen and gain wealth for themselves while oppressing others. It's that simple. The God of the Bible is a cosmic dictator, more cruel and bloodthirsty than Vlad the Impaler, Ghengis Khan, Hitler, Stalin, Hussein, Milosovic, Mugabe, etc etc combined.
Because God is just. The covenant was broken and had to be restored.
The Covenant was ällegedly" broken, by TWO PEOPLE. If God was Just, he would have dealt consequences only to the violating party. He could have killed them and made new people, and given them a chance. He could have spared them, but made them infertile, and created another couple that was pure. But no, God has to go to the most extreme measure possible, to ensure maximum suffering, torment, death, rape and foreskins. Should we then kill all Germans because some of them were Nazis? That would be God's type of Justice.
He couldn’t ignore the covenant or the breaking of the covenant. But at the same time, in a way, as far as we’re concerned he did just wave his hand. It was God himself who suffered death to restore the covenant, not us.
I'd be willing to bet there were a lot more people (like, in the billions) who have endured deaths far worse than Crucifixion. Sure it would suck, but not as bad as starving to death, or death by dehydration, or Scaphism, or probably a million other things that could be worse than a few hours of ridicule and pain. God is leaving it up to people who were not the responsible party to begin with. Again this is not justice. If a parent drives while drunk and hits a pedestrian and kills them, should we punish the parents children too? That would be God style justice.
He took it on himself. Why was it suffering and death? In large part in order to show us true love. He took on all the sin and suffering of the world out of love for us.
Yet there is still suffering in abundance. If you think of the billions of people who have suffered and died horribly throughout human history, the suffering of one guy for a few hours is not really much of an exchange, especially since the guy knew his stay was temporary, and that he would be resurrected and live forever and wield unlimited power. Gee what a sacrifice. Who WOULDN'T take that deal?
He sacrificed his life for us. That’s the greatest love there is. I would die to defend my country, because I love it. I would die to defend my family, because I love them even more.
Too bad for him, that was his choice. Again, we have to be held accountable for God's choices and the choices of others. What a load.
Maybe God waving His hand could have freed us from Original Sin, but, as above, it’s not that which gets us to eternal damnation. It’s what we do on our own.
I disagree. The default is damnation. Only by choosing to submit to a God that approves of murder, rape, genocide and slavery can we get supposed "salvation". No thanks. I can be a good person and not have to submit to God. If he has a problem with it, then I submit that he is a dick. Especially since I have never had anyone raped or murdered, you know, like he has.
By becoming one of us, living like us, suffering and dying on the cross, Jesus gives us the example that we are to follow.
But yet again, it was God that CHOSE suffering and death as the means for redemption. It could have NOT included those things. and again, the suffering and death of one guy is not much when compared to billions.
Frankly, if more people in this world weren’t self-centered, but instead looked out for other people, even dying to save others, like those on Flight 93, this world would be a lot better off.
But that doesn't require any religion. Most people in jail are religious. Most people in jail are probably not there because they were serving the greater good. Why so few atheists in prison? I agree people should help each other more, but religion PREVENTS that from happening. For examples see the Middle East. With the resources and manpower present there, Muslims and Jews (and Christians) alike could all be working together in harmony for each others benefit, and it wouldn't be a bunch of 3rd world countries ravished by poverty and corruption. But, thanks to religion and God's faithful followers, the place has been a hot seat of violence and turmoil since like, recorded history. The Bible (and other sacred texts as well) even encourage war and genocide against those of other faiths. it is for THAT reason that people are not able to work together.
Sorry for the long post. I try to keep these short, since I don’t have much time even with short posts. Thanks for your patience.
Not a problem, however many words you need to make your point is fine by me. Mine's not short either.