Author Topic: Question for Christians about Judas  (Read 13661 times)

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Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #232 on: January 09, 2012, 09:40:15 PM »
WTF so all the mothers who heard "God" telling them to kill their children are OK in your books or are they mentally ill
LOL. I expected you to go this direction. That’s why I asked the question I did earlier in this post. Brakeman accused me of dodging the question. Brakeman, do you see now why I asked?

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #233 on: January 09, 2012, 09:41:19 PM »
So .. Judas didn't find jesus very convincing did he?
LOL!

Hi Omen, interesting question. That one’s been hanging out there for quite some time and I think that you’re the first to explicitly ask it. Nice job.

Jesus was very convincing. Many, even thousands of people, followed him. Billions of people still follow him today. I think when we ask this question, we forget free will and personal responsibility, which is what we’ve been talking about this whole time. Jesus put himself out there with love and humility. God lowered himself to our level for the sole purpose of bringing us up to his. Whether we accept or reject that is up to us.

You are correct! Judas did not find Jesus very convincing. Regardless of what others say, it is unfortunate that he did not. However, that was because, and only because, of the kind of person Judas chose to be.

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #234 on: January 10, 2012, 01:37:56 AM »
WTF so all the mothers who heard "God" telling them to kill their children are OK in your books or are they mentally ill
LOL. I expected you to go this direction. That’s why I asked the question I did earlier in this post. Brakeman accused me of dodging the question. Brakeman, do you see now why I asked?
Well was God talking to them or what?....one person has an imaginary friend ,,,,crazy  a group has an imaginary friend they are worshippers?
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Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #235 on: January 10, 2012, 02:35:03 AM »
So .. Judas didn't find jesus very convincing did he?
LOL!

Hi Omen, interesting question. That one’s been hanging out there for quite some time and I think that you’re the first to explicitly ask it. Nice job.

Jesus was very convincing. Many, even thousands of people, followed him. Billions of people still follow him today. I think when we ask this question, we forget free will and personal responsibility, which is what we’ve been talking about this whole time. Jesus put himself out there with love and humility. God lowered himself to our level for the sole purpose of bringing us up to his. Whether we accept or reject that is up to us.

You are correct! Judas did not find Jesus very convincing. Regardless of what others say, it is unfortunate that he did not. However, that was because, and only because, of the kind of person Judas chose to be.
SC ,I love how you don't speculate,you just TELL us what Judas was thinking and feeling like you hung out with him and Jesus.
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Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #236 on: January 10, 2012, 02:42:23 AM »
In the midst of all the miracles Jesus was performing,Judas must have been less than impressed or he knew it was trickery.
If someone was that "real" as the messiah and convincing beyond question there is NO way Judas could think a few sheckles would be worth it

I think this is precisely why the Gospel of Judas existed, to rationalize a weak portion of the narrative.  It can't possibly be true that someone who was so close to the lord, someone to witness the presence of the living god on earth, would so easily and pitilessly betray his lord and savior Jesus Christ.

If you're not aware, in the Gospel of Judas, Jesus asks Judas to betray him on purpose and this act of Judas is glorified.
Well the way to look if it is a story,then there has to be a bad guy to move the story along,no bad guy,no betrayal,happy ending.
 Now if this were a true to life story,it is Financially benifical for Judas to betray Jesus,because he knows the grift and magic show can no longer sustain itself. Then to top it ,he pays some gaurds off takes the body dumps it and proclaims the Messiah has risen....BAM the myth is off and running....and these idiots are 2000 years and STILL waiting. How long can your dog year excuse hold up? Jesus' year in heaven is like 1000 on earth.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2012, 02:45:21 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #237 on: January 10, 2012, 09:32:19 AM »
Hello Everyone,
This post is #777 for me. Without trying to upset anyone, I thought this one should be today’s Gospel reading. Today we celebrate the Feast of the Baptism of the Lord. The Gospel is from Mark 1:7-11.
This is what John the Baptist proclaimed:"One mightier than I is coming after me.I am not worthy to stoop and loosen the thongs of his sandals.I have baptized you with water;he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
Ah more stories!  Tell us another SC!  Lovely example of where some of the lovely schism comes from in the race to be the OneTrueChristian.  Just how is one "really" baptized.
Quote
It happened in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee and was baptized in the Jordan by John.
On coming up out of the water he saw the heavens being torn open and the Spirit, like a dove, descending upon him.
And a voice came from the heavens, "You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased."
Quote
Thank you for your patience.

Hmmm, Matthew and Mark get it fairly close but Luke forgets to mention the "baptism" at all, but it still has JtB making the same initial claims.  And John has no baptism by JtB at all but has that JtB saw this "dove" come down.  Excellent examples on how this bible is nothing more than a bunch of nonsense. 

As for JC having thousands of followers, I have yet to see anyone show that JC actually existed, which is very important to any claim that there were indeed thousands of followers.  I have yet to see anyone showing how the Romans missed these big confabs of 5000 people in the area outside of Jerusalem and why they never bothered to mention these in a military occupied land.  Billions of people do indeed follow him today but they certainly don’t agree on much about how they follow him or what “he” really said.  It’s entertaining to see such claims when each Christian is sure that those who don’t agree with them are going straight to hell. Billions also follow Allah and Mohammed.  When those numbers outstrip those who claim to be Christians, will that be the One True Religion since SC wants to appeal to popularity? 
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #238 on: January 10, 2012, 08:04:23 PM »
WTF so all the mothers who heard "God" telling them to kill their children are OK in your books or are they mentally ill
LOL. I expected you to go this direction. That’s why I asked the question I did earlier in this post. Brakeman accused me of dodging the question. Brakeman, do you see now why I asked?

And yet again you continually dodge the question. "I expected.." is not an answer to "so all the mothers who heard "God" telling them to kill their children are OK in your books or are they mentally ill?"

Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #239 on: January 10, 2012, 08:36:01 PM »
Well was God talking to them or what?....one person has an imaginary friend ,,,,crazy  a group has an imaginary friend they are worshippers?
Was God talking to who? Women who heard God telling them to kill their children? Who were those women?

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There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #241 on: January 10, 2012, 09:22:41 PM »
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #242 on: January 10, 2012, 09:33:59 PM »
this has nothing to do with the command of God unless of course you think they were culling the heathens

 

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Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #243 on: January 10, 2012, 10:17:17 PM »
ANOTHER DODGE
The personal attacks are childish and getting old.

one example

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/women_killers2/9.html
And your question was whether God was talking to them or not? How am I to know that?

Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #244 on: January 11, 2012, 09:40:55 AM »
And your question was whether God was talking to them or not? How am I to know that?

yep, indeed how are you to know that?  No reason to think you know anything about some god either. 
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Online 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #245 on: January 11, 2012, 02:16:47 PM »
ANOTHER DODGE
The personal attacks are childish and getting old.

one example

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/women/women_killers2/9.html
And your question was whether God was talking to them or not? How am I to know that?
Does he talk to you? are you dismissing their claims? why the one sentence answers? can you be subjective if you think God talks to you he CAN'T talk to them and be a cruel bastard?  As far as the DODGE goes you asked who these women were when you could easily research it and answer the question......but then again all you answered   HOW ARE YOU TO KNOW? ok do YOU BELIEVE God was talking to them? if no why?
« Last Edit: January 11, 2012, 02:30:29 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #246 on: January 11, 2012, 02:26:32 PM »
SC how bout the last video,,,,,,they were not acting for God either? They were riding the world of heathens....that has to count for something in the eyes of God.

  You see since this JC guy comes down and dies for your cause,your God has turned into a pussy unless of course you include saving a survivor (who is a believer) in a plane or bus crash,telling a Republican to run for the whitehouse,or killing off Hitchens,or giving Hawkings a disease that keeps him prisoner in an ailing body,what has he done?
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Offline Omen

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #247 on: January 11, 2012, 04:19:14 PM »
So .. Judas didn't find jesus very convincing did he?


Jesus was very convincing.

You mean like Mohammad?

If this were purely a numbers game, Islam has converted more followers faster than Christianity ever has.  In fact, at the rate it is going Islam will surpass christianity in total numbers in the near future in a shorter amount of time in which christianity has existed.  However, what kind of moron would base the credibility of a religious cultural movement based on how many people believe it?

Quote
You are correct! Judas did not find Jesus very convincing. Regardless of what others say, it is unfortunate that he did not. However, that was because..

These events would be incredible, regardless if they occurred 2000 years ago or today.  If someone so close to the events as to observe them directly and to be immediately impressed with the reality of what was going on can so quickly and obviously act in a manner that is totally indifferent as if the events never really occurred at all, then what does that say about the impact of the events being asserted?

You don't actually respond as if to take the question seriously, you respond by making up an excuse.  You pass over the ease with which someone, having supposedly witness the son of god in a manner so real as to leave absolutely no doubt whatsoever, acts as if its just another everyday occurrence.  Are we supposed to believe that of the people who escaped in the exodus?  Who saw water magically split apart before them? Who saw columns of cloud and flame that guided them?  Who saw the plagues of egypt? 

Who, once Moses stepped away, immediately fell back on the worship of golden statues?  They didn't seem to find it very convincing either.  It is as if it is either the events never occurred or that its a fictional narrative that stresses credulity to relay some kind of idea.  Ignoring of course that absolutely none of this ever occurred and completely disagrees with every notion of actual historical and archaeological research.
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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #248 on: January 11, 2012, 08:10:19 PM »
Omen SC is in too deep
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #249 on: January 13, 2012, 07:47:20 PM »
Quote
And your question was whether God was talking to them or not? How am I to know that?

You seem to know god was talking to people when it's written in an old book. You just take that third-hand testimony at face value.

Where's this helpless skepticism when addressing the bible?
Denis Loubet

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #250 on: January 13, 2012, 08:25:40 PM »
Hi 12 Monkeys,

Thanks for the response. Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

why the one sentence answers?
Because that’s what I have to say at this point. I didn’t know what mothers you were talking about, so I asked. I could have googled it, but even then I’d be guessing which ones you were referring to. I try hard to correctly understand what the other person is saying. In many cases it’s best to ask rather than to guess. You don’t mind do you?

The second one sentence answer I gave was pretty straightforward, too, in my opinion. I don’t know the women. I don’t know their situation. I’m not their spiritual director. Anything I say would be a guess, wouldn’t it? Is that what you’re asking me to do? The question really doesn’t have anything to do with Judas or free will, does it?

ok do YOU BELIEVE God was talking to them? if no why?
Of the three, only the first one was supposedly commanded by God to do what she did. You can probably find others, though, so that’s no matter. Would I guess that Deanna Laney was really commanded by God to kill her children? To make that guess we can look at it from a couple of directions. First, Deanna herself. What was she like? The doctor’s said she was insane, right? What was their reason? Did she have a history of psychotic behavior or anything like that? The accounts of her past behavior and behavior during the trial would seem to indicate so. That type of information would help us.

Second we have to ask about the “commands” she received. The article said she saw certain things and she took them as signs. If there was some sort of outside influence pushing her in that direction, it didn’t have to be God. Another thread was all about how Satan works. This would certainly be the kind of evil and chaos that he is credited with, and Satan wouldn’t care whether she was insane or not.

Finally, we can look at the deeds themselves. The types of things she interpreted as signs are not, as far as I know, consistent with the kinds of signs that God has given in other accounts, such as the Bible and the writings of the saints. I haven’t found much about why she thinks that God wanted her to kill her kids. Have you? Finally, killing her children is certainly not consistent with we know of God from the Bible and writings of the saints. If I’m wrong, then I’m sure someone will correct me.

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #251 on: January 13, 2012, 08:28:04 PM »
Hi Omen,

Happy Friday the 13th! :)
However, what kind of moron would base the credibility of a religious cultural movement based on how many people believe it?
Are you saying that’s what I’m doing? That’s the argument I made?

You make some assumptions in the next part that I’ve bolded. These assumptions are not supported by the text of the Bible. If you think they are, you’ll have to show me.

If someone so close to the events as to observe them directly and to be immediately impressed with the reality of what was going on can so quickly and obviously act in a manner that is totally indifferent as if the events never really occurred at all, then what does that say about the impact of the events being asserted?
. . .  You pass over the ease with which someone, having supposedly witness the son of god in a manner so real as to leave absolutely no doubt whatsoever, acts as if its just another everyday occurrence.
You assume that Judas was impressed. You assume that he acted quickly and easily. And you assume that he acted in a manner indifferent to past events. Maybe your assumptions are right, and maybe not. However, they are assumptions not supported by the text.

Are we supposed to believe that of the people who escaped in the exodus?  Who saw water magically split apart before them? Who saw columns of cloud and flame that guided them?  Who saw the plagues of egypt? 

Who, once Moses stepped away, immediately fell back on the worship of golden statues?  They didn't seem to find it very convincing either. It is as if it is either the events never occurred or that its a fictional narrative that stresses credulity to relay some kind of idea.
Are you saying that people who see, or even experience, monumentally important things that greatly impact their lives can’t turn around and “forget” what happened, even acting contrary to the impact that was made? Is that the argument you’re making? That people never do that? If that’s the argument you’re making, then I have to ask how much do you know people, because that happens all the time. It happens on small scales – one person does something good for another and the second turns around and hurts the first – and on large scales – after the attacks on 9/11 everyone in the U.S. was about working together and the common good, and now we’re at each other’s throats again. No, that argument is baseless.

Why is it baseless, though? It is not because of the events. It’s because of the people. What matters is what kind of people we are. The impact that an event will have on us depends on our character. When it rains on the ground, some places will grow fruits and flowers, and some places will grow thorns. That’s not because of the rain. Mud in the sun dries up and hardens, while wax in the same sun will melt. It’s the qualities of the mud and the wax that make the difference. It’s a fact that Alabama won the BCS championship. How people felt about that depended on them. Some were happy and some upset.

Ignoring of course that absolutely none of this ever occurred and completely disagrees with every notion of actual historical and archaeological research.
Yes, of course. Ignoring this. :)

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #252 on: January 13, 2012, 08:35:28 PM »
Hi dloubet,

How are things? I thought you’d given up on the thread. We had a conversation going before.

You seem to know god was talking to people when it's written in an old book. You just take that third-hand testimony at face value.

Where's this helpless skepticism when addressing the bible?
“helpless skepticism”? Interesting phrase. :)

Since you have an understanding of how Catholics view the Bible, I’ll take the question as rhetorical. Or maybe you don’t?

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #253 on: January 13, 2012, 08:38:50 PM »
SC killing YOUR children may not be a consistant thing in your Bible but killing others children is consistant with your God of the Bible.  Some have been deemed insane,and as far as I am concerned you would have to be to kill ANYBODY unless it was an extreme situation,let alone your own kids. But some have stated they have heard God tell them to kill,and you seem to be pointing the finger at Satan pretending to be God,if I understand correctly.

 So why would you automatically assume Satan could tell them to do these deeds,while dismissing God and going with the insanity reason?
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Offline Babdah

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #254 on: January 13, 2012, 08:46:18 PM »
Quote
Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

Could the case be made that Judas assisted in our salvation?  If Judas had not turned Jesus in, would he have been arrested?  Would he have been condemned to die?  How would god have brought about the salvation of the world without Judas?  :P
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Offline albeto

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #255 on: January 13, 2012, 09:24:28 PM »
Could the case be made that Judas assisted in our salvation?  If Judas had not turned Jesus in, would he have been arrested?  Would he have been condemned to die?  How would god have brought about the salvation of the world without Judas?  :P

Ask any ten year old kid for an alternative and not only would it be more moral, it would be possible for an omnifuckingpotent god to do. 

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #256 on: January 13, 2012, 10:29:31 PM »
Hi 12 Monkeys,

How’s the weather there? We were supposed to get a bunch of snow, but didn’t get too much.

SC killing YOUR children may not be a consistant thing in your Bible but killing others children is consistant with your God of the Bible. . . .

 So why would you automatically assume Satan could tell them to do these deeds,while dismissing God and going with the insanity reason?
Well, I’m not “pointing the finger” and I didn’t “automatically assume.” I just speculated about the possibilities that could be going on in the situation. I also explained why I thought what I did. You even support that with your statements above.

Some have been deemed insane,and as far as I am concerned you would have to be to kill ANYBODY unless it was an extreme situation,let alone your own kids.
I’m not sure if you have to be insane, but I agree with you. A person has to be pretty messed up in one way or another to kill anyone.

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #257 on: January 14, 2012, 02:22:45 PM »
SC how do you resolve killing by order of God? is it JUST a story? A justification for peoples actions of killing entire citys? Or was it an actual order by a COWARD who did not want his hands dirty?
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Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #258 on: January 14, 2012, 03:40:48 PM »
Hi 12 Monkeys,

SC how do you resolve killing by order of God? is it JUST a story? A justification for peoples actions of killing entire citys? Or was it an actual order by a COWARD who did not want his hands dirty?
That’s a very good question. It’s also a complicated question. Short as it is to ask, it’s longer to answer. I hope you’ll believe me when I say that my purpose here and the following posts is not to dodge, but to give a full answer.

Let me first clarify the question. It’s one thing to ask "how to resolve killing by order of God?”, and another to ask “how to resolve God commanding to kill someone?”

The first one is simple. If God orders something you do it. (Truly “God” and truly “ordering,” etc.) That one we’ve addressed before.

The second question is the complicated one. Is that the one you mean?

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #259 on: January 14, 2012, 11:29:23 PM »
Please SC give it a try,i would like to see your thoughts on this.

 Then maybe we can figure out why a single God is indeed that,and why does it take him more than one try to not exclude all races. In fact why he ordered the killings of other races in the first place,why would God exclude all races for one,only to change his mind and include all by one act from Judas?

 IMHO there was no Judas,or Jesus for that matter,but a construct made by humans so a single God could become universal and not exclude all but the Jews. The single God construct would probably have worked had it not been for those not interested in either a higher power or the rules that bound them to it. So others also adopted said God but changed the rules to suit their needs and desires. Now thare are 38,000 different views of the same God.
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Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #260 on: January 15, 2012, 07:49:40 PM »
Good Evening 12 Monkeys,

Thanks for the response. I’m going to assume that your response. . .
Please SC give it a try,i would like to see your thoughts on this.
is in answer to this question.
The second question (“how to resolve God commanding to kill someone?”) is the complicated one. Is that the one you mean?
If I’m wrong, let me know.

I’ll try. It’s interesting that our situation here proves my point earlier about Judas. I think that no matter what I say, you’re not going to be convinced. I’ve explained these things to other people, such as in RCIA, and they are convinced. Obviously, I’m not Jesus and you’re not Judas, but I think you see the point.

You ask a few more questions below. They’re not unrelated and we can try to incorporate them into the conversation. However, screwtape and I are working things out for the debate and we hope to start it soon. We’ll continue our conversation until we do. Is that okay? I also have two “assignments” to do. One is to prepare for an RCIA class on Church History from about 1304 AD to modern times. (Fitting all that into an hour and a half is a challenge!) The other is to prepare for a debate on “The Problems of the Bible.” Interestingly enough, I get to be the attacker. Both of those are going to take my free time over the next couple of weeks.

The one question of your response I don’t get is this one. . .
Then maybe we can figure out why a single God is indeed that,. . .
is indeed “what”? I’m not sure what the “that” is referring to. I know references like this seem obvious when you’re writing them, but they’re not always clear when reading. If you don’t mind my saying so, I recommend using fewer pronouns and more direct references. I think it helps the understanding and moves the conversation along quicker. But then, maybe it’s just me. If you help me understand what you’re referring to, then I’ll respond to that question, also.

,and (1) why does it take him more than one try to not exclude all races. In fact (2) why he ordered the killings of other races in the first place, (3) why would God exclude all races for one, (4) only to change his mind and include all by one act from Judas?
Btw, I’m not sure why you’re asking these questions in light of the current thread. You yelled at me quite a bit when I got off topic in your thread about Satan. However, let me respond to your questions, as I understand them, with a few examples. As before, if I’ve misunderstood you, please correct me. I’ve numbered them, except for the first, which I don’t understand, so that I can easily refer to them below.

You ask (3). God has always had the plan for the inclusion of all people into his salvation. (There’s a sub-topic here about people who don’t know Jesus, but let’s not go there. We have enough sub-topics as it is.) Starting from the beginning, we have Adam and Eve who were the parents of the entire human race and the entire human race would have benefited from their obedience. The Bible gives examples of God revealing himself to people outside of the Israelites. Abraham was obviously not an Israelite. Melchizedek, the king of Salem, was a believer. The king of Sodom knew of Abraham’s God. Multiple Pharoahs and the Egyptian people would have known and had opportunity to believe, especially after they saw the power of God. Jonah was sent to Nineveh and the entire city repented. Naaman from Syria came to Elisha to be healed. The Magi from the East followed the star to Jesus. In the Bible there are many places were God revealed himself in one way or another to those outside of Israel.

The Bible prophecies also talk of the nations worshiping God, the covenants with Abraham and Jacob and, for example, as do the psalms. God did not exclude all races for one. In fact, the reason for the one race, Israel, was so that they would be a light to the rest of the nations. By their example the other nations were to have repented and believed. Israel was the firstborn of many nations.

That also answers (4). God did not change his mind. It was always part of the plan.

You ask (2). Since you’re not specific, I’ll take that question as referring to the Canaanites. If I’m wrong let me know. What do you know about the religion, practices, etc. of the Canaanites? Both from the Bible or other sources, we know that the Canaanites were very depraved, and involved in bestiality, incest, molestation, homosexuality, prostitution, and sacrificing their children to idols. God gave them time to repent – the four hundred some years the Israelites were in Egypt – but they did not. Sodom was another city engaged in this depravity. God agreed to spare it if 10 innocent people could be found. They couldn’t and so it was destroyed. This time God was using the Israelites.

By the way, even the Israelites were not immune from this judgment. They worshipped the Canaanite gods and engaged in some of the behavior. Because of that they lost their home, too, and were exiled. They were not destroyed (although the 10 northern tribes are lost) because God is faithful to the covenant.

The Canaanites also knew who God was, that God had given the Israelites the land, and that God had done wondrous things for them. Yet they still did not repent. Some did, the Gibeonites, for example, who knew that God commanded Moses that the Israelites be given the land. They feared the Lord and the Israelites.

The herem warfare wasn’t genocide as some claim. It was done as capital punishment for the sins committed. It also wasn’t intended to be complete, but only for those in the land of Canaan. There were others outside the boundary that were not to be killed in the same manner.

Looking back at “(1) why does it take him more than one try to not exclude all races” I guess I don’t know what you mean by this question, either. What do you mean?