Thanks for pointing that out. I wish I had your memory. He does ask for the cup to pass if it be the Father’s will. However, doing the Father’s will is the most important thing. He had no problem doing it if it was the Father’s will.
I do have an excellent memory, but you don’t need to in order to know some of the very basic things in your supposed handbook on how to please god. You just need to actually read it. You also need to remember what you initially claimed “None of the gospels show Jesus with a problem about being crucified. I didn’t say anything to the contrary. “needs to be done” is your interpretation of what the gospels say.” which was false. You have a person who doesn’t want to be crucified and that is the most important thing, that he questions this god, which makes little sense if he is god or he knows the purpose of this act. Yes, he will do it if it is god’s will, but that never indicates that he doesn’t want to do it.
Whether God needed it to be done this way is an interpretation. We certainly needed it for our salvation.
And hmmm, you said earlier ““needs to be done” is your interpretation of what the gospels say.” I love your trying to ignore your bible. Pretty amusing. Gee, everything that you dont’ like suddenly is just someone’s “interpretation”. Well, dearie, your interpretation is what? Show me how you support that my interpretation is somehow wrong. if your god didn’t need it to be this way, why did he make it happen this way? Pesky omnipotence, omniscience gets in the way when you want to play word games. And as I pointed out, to be the prophesying wonder that JC claimed to be, it needed to be done just like was claimed. Prophecy is a problem since it sets things in stone in theory.
As for the rest of it, velkyn, I’m sorry. I’m willing to talk about any one thing with you, but not the half dozen or more things you bring up in your post. I don’t even know where to begin. And when I do, we can’t go into any depth because there are a half dozen more things that come up in the next post. I appreciate your passion and would love to discuss these things with you. But I won’t do it that way.
Nice running away here, SC. What a pathetic whine. Start at the beginning, that’s where most people start. You have my post, address it as you can. I’m not in a hurry. and yep, your bible is full of problems which lead to other problems.
If you want to pick one point related to the original question, then I will discuss it with you. When we’re done with that we can move to the next.
They are all related, despite your baseless claims that they are not. You make me grin, SC with your attempts to get out dealing with the problems of your bible. You make ignorant false claims and you are shown how you are wrong. I take the time to show you even further on how you are wrong and how ignorant you are of your bible.
As the others have also shown, your claims about Judas don’t work if one reads the bible and its various claims on what happened. We have a god that needs things done in a certain way. We have a fall guy, Judas, whose actions are anything but those of someone with free will. I have taken the time to point out where in your magic book it supports those conclusions. You seem to want to do no more than make believe that they don’t exist, by trying to cast me as some villain who overwhelms you with tangential points. You have yet to show them as tangential, irrelevant or inconsequential, other than waving your hands and saying that they are. They are directly involved with the discussion about Judas and his eventual fate. You are the one who has brought up the claims about free will and I have merely shot them down. And I have pointed out where your bible has nothing to do with free will considering the actions of your god which allow no free will. You make claims, I’m quite happy to show how you are wrong. You don’t want to be called on those claims then do some research before you make them.
You gave a good enough description of why there had to be a sacrifice. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that there had to be a betrayer, though the passages velkyn quoted do indicate that. I say not necessarily because it sure seems like the Sanhedrin would have found a way even without a betrayer.
I love this. Gee, velkyn shows verses that do indicate that a betrayer is needed this but magically SC knows better than his bible. Then we have baseless claim after baseless claim, trying to invoke some magical mysterious information that might make you right, SC. Funny how it’s been, what, 2000+ years and that still hasn’t magically appeared. You sound like the creationist idiots who are real sure that real soon now they’ll get their evidence. Again, we have a Christian unable to come to grips that his bible is flawed and that humans need to constantly make up things to make this primitive nonsense valid.
According to the bible (and the catholic party line) yep, JC did know his betrayer. Pointed him out right to the apostles who were “huh?” And had to have that betrayer. Your god picked this betrayer out. And again, we have no free will as claimed. As JC himself says, there are people intended to be damned. Poor Judas and poor everyone else who doesn’t get the magic grace bestowed.
You consistently make appeals to emotion, that surely surely your god isnt’ so viciously stupid and surely surely JC did try. But the stories as presented don’t follow.
It’s also funny when you want it to be the fault of Judas. I’d certainly lose hope in the mercy of god since well, it’s not to be seen. Funny how this god fails at actually demonstrating anything claimed about it.
The stories of the bible are just that, and having been written by different people at different times they are like the worst game of “telephone” ever, for supposedly being “divinely” inspired. You try to excuse this mess by making claims like
Finally, you ask why would Jesus have let Satan enter Judas while being bff’s with Peter. . . ? Satan can’t violate anyone’s free will. Satan was able to enter Judas because Judas let him. Jesus won’t violate anyone’s free will, so he let Satan do that. It’s another interesting question (for another thread) as to whether Jesus would have stopped Satan from entering Peter’s heart or just whether Jesus didn’t need to. Fear and cowardice isn’t the same as submitting to Satan at that level, though I suppose it might lead to it.
wow, forget Job much? You really do need to read your bible, SC. Satan violated Job’s free will, his family’s free will, etc, and your god just watched on. There is as usual, *nothing* to support your claim and plenty to support the opposite.
My comments are more than speculation. They are based on the description that the Bible gives us about Jesus. One of the Bible’s point about Jesus is that he’s not like anyone else. Given the description of Jesus in the Bible your claims are very far afield.
And we have seen you focus on only one description of Jesus and ignore the ones that don’t fit into your nonsense.
EDIT: alas, I have been informed by SC that unless I obey his requirements for a discussion he won’t answer my questions and points. take that as you will.