Question for Christians about Judas

[dloubet]

Has anyone heard a Christian address Jesus with the admonition "You shouldn't have done that! My salvation was not worth your torture and death!"

Didn't think so.

[riley2112]

Has anyone heard a Christian address Jesus with the admonition "You shouldn't have done that! My salvation was not worth your torture and death!"

Didn't think so.

You may be surprised.

[SimpleCaveman]

Hi albeto,

How are things going? I hope you’ve been well.

I finally have some time. Our movie, a spoof on Minority Report, is done. It was a hit. No revenues, though. :-) The editing took all my free time before, so now I actually have some.

You ask a question that is always interesting.

Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

My first question would be, how do you know that Jesus didn’t try to stop Judas from betraying him?

[Azdgari]

Has anyone heard a Christian address Jesus with the admonition "You shouldn't have done that! My salvation was not worth your torture and death!"

Didn't think so.

You may be surprised.

Have you heard it (or said it)?  I never have.  Every Christian I ever heard talk about it was all full of praise for how wonderful the sacrifice was.

[Anfauglir]

Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?

My first question would be, how do you know that Jesus didn’t try to stop Judas from betraying him?

My reply would be: was Jesus, the embodiment on earth of the one true god, THAT powerless?  Was he a being that could fail at such a simple task?  That he could walk on water and feed thousands and raise the dead but NOT prevent his betrayal?

[screwtape]

My first question would be, how do you know that Jesus didn’t try to stop Judas from betraying him?

Suppose he had.  Supposed he succeeded and that allowed jesus H to slip away and avoid arrest by the Romans.  Suppose he and Mary Mags (his nickname for her) went off of Greece, became Platonists, got married and had a few kids.  Then 40 years later he died of old age.  Where's your scapegoat[1] now?  Where is your salvation?  Where is god's grand plan to change the rules?  Right in the shitter, that's where.  No, no.  Even if jesus H had tried to stop Judas, yhwh needed the betrayal.  It was part of The Plan.

1.	whipping boy, human sacrifice, etc

[SimpleCaveman]

Hi Anfauglir,

How are things? Happy Tuesday. I am taking the week off, so have time to respond. I have to go out shopping later, though. This year will be tough. My wife hasn’t dropped many hints. :-)

Tell me something. I don’t know if I get these kinds of responses because people (posters in general and you in this instance) don’t know/remember the response, or because the joi de combat is so strong. My guess is the latter, especially in some of the contexts that the questions occur. It could also be disgenuousness, though in your case I would be inclined to think not.

To me, the answer to your question is obvious. No. Jesus was not that powerless. However, Jesus respects human freedom, so he does not force his will on us.

I’m sure he wanted Judas to not betray him. Judas was an Apostle called by Jesus and Jesus treated him as a friend. I would think that Jesus saw good in Judas, as well as the potential for evil. Just as there is in all of us. Peter, in fact, also wanted to oppose Jesus and what awaited him at Jerusalem. Peter also betrayed Jesus in a different way.

The temptations for evil are there for all of us. The love of Jesus is as well. Both Peter and Judas went through (almost) the same experiences with Jesus. They both learned what Jesus taught, both preached the good news. They both knew what Jesus was about and the love and mercy he had for everyone. It is the difference in each of us that makes the difference. The choices we make are what make our fate.

[SimpleCaveman]

Hi screwtape,

Suppose he had.  Supposed he succeeded and that allowed jesus H to slip away and avoid arrest by the Romans.

Hmm, you go quite far afield pretty quickly. Why do you assume that if Judas had not betrayed Jesus that Jesus would try to slip away and avoid arrest by the Jews (not the Romans)?

[screwtape]

Though I did not make an assumption, why not?  It doesn't say he wouldn't.  It doesn't say he wasn't desperate to get away from the Pharasies and Romans.  It makes sense to me that he would.  They were both jamming his vibe. 

It doesn't say he didn't have an elaborate escape plan.  It makes sense that he would go on the lam with all the heat he was getting.  Unless he was a deluded loon with death wish (which the bible also does not say he wasn't).

It doesn't say he did not have a prototype lightbulb design which Nicola Tesla discovered (and Edison subsequently stole).  Or that he wasn't a base jumping enthusiast.  Or that he was really a Roman spy, an agent provacateur, sent to stir up the jooz so they (the Romans) would have a reason to crush them.  Unfotunately, the Pharasies saw through the obvious ruse, but it was the gentiles who were really duped. 

It doesn't say a lot of things. As long as we are playing the "it doesn't say he didn't" game, why not speculate freely?

You use that as an escape hatch, Caveman.  It is a kissing cousin to "can't prove it isn't" and equally bad policy.

[riley2112]

Has anyone heard a Christian address Jesus with the admonition "You shouldn't have done that! My salvation was not worth your torture and death!"

Didn't think so.

You may be surprised.

Have you heard it (or said it)?  I never have.  Every Christian I ever heard talk about it was all full of praise for how wonderful the sacrifice was.

As you have said, Christians are full of praise about the sacrifice, however most Christian come to the point of wondering if they are worth the pain that Jesus went through. My self included. One of the biggest question that Christians face is the question of Am I worth it. Or they believe that they are the ones that God can not forgive. Because they are not good enough.

[Azdgari]

That can't be good, psychologically...

[riley2112]

Maybe not , but then , I would think that alot of people wonder about their worth or many different points. It is kinda funny and sad that people doubt theirselves on so many levels.

[velkyn]

Tell me something. I don’t know if I get these kinds of responses because people (posters in general and you in this instance) don’t know/remember the response, or because the joi de combat is so strong. My guess is the latter, especially in some of the contexts that the questions occur. It could also be disgenuousness, though in your case I would be inclined to think not.

you get these kinds of responses becuas your claims are ridiculous and need support. 

To me, the answer to your question is obvious. No. Jesus was not that powerless. However, Jesus respects human freedom, so he does not force his will on us.

  Bwaahaaaaaa.  Funny how that is the excuse used when its never supported.  the gospel of John has a JC that has no problem with being sacrificed and needs it to be done. 

I’m sure he wanted Judas to not betray him. Judas was an Apostle called by Jesus and Jesus treated him as a friend. I would think that Jesus saw good in Judas, as well as the potential for evil. Just as there is in all of us. Peter, in fact, also wanted to oppose Jesus and what awaited him at Jerusalem. Peter also betrayed Jesus in a different way.

So this JC allowed Satan to take Judas over, his good buddy?  Again, the stories in teh bible cause problems with a Christian who evidently doesn't know them.

[Azdgari]

Maybe not , but then , I would think that alot of people wonder about their worth or many different points. It is kinda funny and sad that people doubt theirselves on so many levels.

Adopting a philosophy that states that you are inherently evil and worthless, needing the most extreme act of forgiveness possible from the highest authority one knows in order to avoid the eternal punishment one morally deserves, is sorta worse than the usual depressed thought.

I've been through depression as a teen during which I had suicidal thoughts, but never at any point did my depression reach that ^^ level of self-hatred.

[riley2112]

Maybe not , but then , I would think that alot of people wonder about their worth or many different points. It is kinda funny and sad that people doubt theirselves on so many levels.

Adopting a philosophy that states that you are inherently evil and worthless, needing the most extreme act of forgiveness possible from the highest authority one knows in order to avoid the eternal punishment one morally deserves, is sorta worse than the usual depressed thought.

I've been through depression as a teen during which I had suicidal thoughts, but never at any point did my depression reach that ^^ level of self-hatred.

got nothing to do with self hatred. I would think that any one would feel bad about anyone giving up their life for you. Be it someone pushing you out of the way of a car and getting hit to trying to help someone that is being robbed and getting shot. Them giving their life for your may make you think that your life should have been taken instead of theirs in your place.

[Azdgari]

got nothing to do with self hatred.

It does if you believe and feel that it's true.  Feeling that you are utterly evil and worthless is pretty much the definition of "self-hatred".  How would you define self-hatred?

I would think that any one would feel bad about anyone giving up their life for you. Be it someone pushing you out of the way of a car and getting hit to trying to help someone that is being robbed and getting shot. Them giving their life for your may make you think that your life should have been taken instead of theirs in your place.

I wasn't so much talking about that part.  I was talking about the negative self-image that is a part of Christian doctrine.

[riley2112]

got nothing to do with self hatred.

It does if you believe and feel that it's true.  Feeling that you are utterly evil and worthless is pretty much the definition of "self-hatred".  How would you define self-hatred?

I would think that any one would feel bad about anyone giving up their life for you. Be it someone pushing you out of the way of a car and getting hit to trying to help someone that is being robbed and getting shot. Them giving their life for your may make you think that your life should have been taken instead of theirs in your place.

I wasn't so much talking about that part.  I was talking about the negative self-image that is a part of Christian doctrine.

I would define self hatred the same as you . However that is not what I feel as a Christian. And I feel no negative self image about my self nor do I know any Christians that has that feeling with in them. Please understand that I don't know every Christian. I can only speak about the ones I know. I am curious of what would make you thing that a negative self image is part of the Christian doctrine.

[Azdgari]

Oh, I suspect that your idea of what Christians feel about themselves is true.  Certainly they don't appear to hate themselves (at least not to that degree).

But that only means that they don't actually believe/feel what they claim to believe/feel.

[riley2112]

Oh, I suspect that your idea of what Christians feel about themselves is true.  Certainly they don't appear to hate themselves (at least not to that degree).

But that only means that they don't actually believe/feel what they claim to believe/feel.

Could you explain to me why you would think or believe that?

[SimpleCaveman]

Hi screwtape,

Though I did not make an assumption, why not?  It doesn't say he wouldn't.

You’ve always been honest with me that you are less familiar with the NT. I know you’re busy, but I’m surprised that you wouldn’t do some research before you make these assumptions. The Bible makes it clear that your assumptions are incorrect.

Jesus does not try to get away from the Pharisees once the time is right. In fact, he actually goes to Jerusalem knowing what they will do to him. Along the way, he prophesies the suffering and death that he would endure. The clear message of the NT is that Jesus knew he would suffer death and chose to do so.

There were many things he could have done to get away from the Pharisees and Romans, but chose not to, miracles and displays of power notwithstanding. It was telling the truth that got him crucified.

Some ways that Jesus could have avoided crucifixion

• Stayed out of Jerusalem.
• Not gone to the Garden of Gethsemane where Judas was expecting him to be.
• Not “blasphemed” in front of the Pharisees. They did not have the testimony to convict him until his own statement. (cf. Mt 26:64-65)
• Told Pilate that he wasn’t a king and that he wouldn’t cause any trouble. Although maybe by that time it was too late.

Judas was the catalyst, so to speak, that sparked the events, but not the cause. Who Jesus was was the cause, and the fear and hatred of the authorities against him. Jesus knew the situation. He knew what would happen and he freely walked into it.

Judas didn’t have to betray him. If he hadn’t, the Pharisees would have found another way to do it.

[Azdgari]

Because for one to truly believe and feel that one is evil and worthless, to feel that one is truly morally deserving of eternal torture - that necessitates self-hatred.

Consider:  You hear in the news that a man (let's call him Otis) pretended to be a loving partner, so that he could get a woman to trust him.  Then used that trust to give him an opportunity to molest and kill her children, and show them to her, gloating over her foolishness while smiling over what he'd done.  Later he shows pride rather than remorse for his actions.

I'd consider "hatred" to be a reasonable reaction to Otis.  From a retributive moral standpoint, he deserves unspeakable things to be done to him.  He deserves no respect as a human being anymore.  He is evil.[1]  And I don't already hold that he's evil just for being human, like a Christian would.

Now, what would it take to get him to deserve eternal punishment?  To be considered even more evil than I'd consider him to be?  Whatever it took - whatever he'd have to do in order to earn it - would that increase, or decrease, the amount of hatred directed at him?  Increase, if anything, right?

Well, let's transfer that to someone else, from a Christian perspective.  Let's call him Scott.  Scott's just a normal guy.  He deserves not just unspeakable punishment, like Otis does from my perspective (which doesn't include the baseline of human evil that Christianity includes), but eternal, ultimate punishment.  He is worse to a Christian than Otis is to me (and Otis would be unspeakably bad to me, earning hatred and all).  For a Christian to genuinely feel those things about Scott, must entail them hating Scott.  Hating him more than I would hate Otis.

Now, Scott is another person.  But he's just a guy.  He's not really different from us, from a Christian perspective.  We are just as corrupt.  We deserve eternal torture as much as he does.  We deserve punishment to a greater degree than I'd hold Otis to deserve punishment, from a Christian perspective.  Our self-respect as humans is lower, from a Christian perspective, than my respect for Otis as a human would be.  We have to hate ourselves - if we seriously feel that way.

Fortunately, Christians don't seem to seriously feel that way.  Unfortunately, they say they do.

1.

For quibblers who may reference this against my meta-ethical positions:  I speak from my own values and the probably values of our friend Riley.  All value-assertions are with respect to that context.  Maybe I should put *that* in my signature, instead of old Omega's drivel, which is getting old anyway...

[SimpleCaveman]

Hi velkyn,

the gospel of John has a JC that has no problem with being sacrificed and needs it to be done. 

None of the gospels show Jesus with a problem about being crucified. I didn’t say anything to the contrary. “needs to be done” is your interpretation of what the gospels say.

So this JC allowed Satan to take Judas over, his good buddy?  Again, the stories in teh bible cause problems with a Christian who evidently doesn't know them.

Yes, he did allow Satan to tempt Judas and he did allow Judas to choose to follow Satan’s temptation. That’s what it means to respect human freedom.

[riley2112]

Because for one to truly believe and feel that one is evil and worthless, to feel that one is truly morally deserving of eternal torture - that necessitates self-hatred.

That was all interesting but I still don't see anything that would make me feel that one is evil and worthless just because of them being human. I would think, and please understand that I do not speak for all Christians. Ask four of us and I am sure you would get four different answers. But the simple fact that God would go through all of this for little old me would not make me feel evil but that I am worth his love. As for why I am , wish I could tell you, but who knows.

[Azdgari]

That was all interesting but I still don't see anything that would make me feel that one is evil and worthless just because of them being human.

Nor was that something that my post was meant to demonstrate.  I was saying that if one believes that one is evil and worthless just for being human, then one must have self-hatred.

I would think, and please understand that I do not speak for all Christians. Ask four of us and I am sure you would get four different answers. But the simple fact that God would go through all of this for little old me would not make me feel evil but that I am worth his love. As for why I am , wish I could tell you, but who knows.

The reason the "evil and worthless" thing comes up at all is because it is a common Christian doctrine:  Being evil and worthless (as a result of Original Sin, for being "fallen", etc.) is the whole reason why Jesus is supposed to be necessary in the first place:  To atone for humanity's evil.  For justice.  We are still just as evil, and we still deserve our punishment, but it's been "paid for" via scapegoat.  Everything about us that would earn hatred without Jesus is still true with Jesus.  Hence, self-hatred...if the belief was genuine.

[riley2112]

That was all interesting but I still don't see anything that would make me feel that one is evil and worthless just because of them being human.

Nor was that something that my post was meant to demonstrate.  I was saying that if one believes that one is evil and worthless just for being human, then one must have self-hatred.

I would think, and please understand that I do not speak for all Christians. Ask four of us and I am sure you would get four different answers. But the simple fact that God would go through all of this for little old me would not make me feel evil but that I am worth his love. As for why I am , wish I could tell you, but who knows.

The reason the "evil and worthless" thing comes up at all is because it is a common Christian doctrine:  Being evil and worthless (as a result of Original Sin, for being "fallen", etc.) is the whole reason why Jesus is supposed to be necessary in the first place:  To atone for humanity's evil.  For justice.  We are still just as evil, and we still deserve our punishment, but it's been "paid for" via scapegoat.  Everything about us that would earn hatred without Jesus is still true with Jesus.  Hence, self-hatred...if the belief was genuine.

OK, I see your point. But I think you take it to far, We are not really evil , we are just not obedient and if I am reading this thing ( Bible ) right that is really the only so called sin that started it all. It may be possible that some of the wording of the Bible was , well added for control. Not saying that I know that for a fact, but it has crossed my mind. However my believe in God is genuine.

[Azdgari]

If you do not believe that humans are evil for being fallen, then your belief does not necessitate self-hatred, and my reasoning does not apply to your case.  But there are a lot of Christians who believe we are.

[riley2112]

If you do not believe that humans are evil for being fallen, then your belief does not necessitate self-hatred, and my reasoning does not apply to your case.  But there are a lot of Christians who believe we are.

As sad as that is, you are right. It seems like that would take away from the desire to be Christian. I wonder how many Christians feel that they are in some way evil. Might make a interesting thread.

[velkyn]

None of the gospels show Jesus with a problem about being crucified. I didn’t say anything to the contrary. “needs to be done” is your interpretation of what the gospels say.

None of them?  hmmm.

luke 22: 39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him. 40 On reaching the place, he said to them, “Pray that you will not fall into temptation.” 41 He withdrew about a stone’s throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 “Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done.” 43 An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him. 44 And being in anguish, he prayed more earnestly, and his sweat was like drops of blood falling to the ground.[c]

  If he had no problem with being crucified, then why the request for god to not allow it to be done?  He acquesieces to it but doesn’t go without questioning this god.  The gospel of John of course doesn’t mention this little episode at all, JC is all for being finally “glorified”. And “needs to be done” is my “interpretation: “the gospel of John has a JC that has no problem with being sacrificed and needs it to be done.”?  So, you are arguing that the crucifiction didn’t need to happen, that we could have all been saved without a blood sacrifice in the form of the bloody murder of one man?  Seems that the bible disagrees. 

Your supposed savior predicts his betrayal and his eventual death.  He needs it to happen or uh-oh! he’s wrong and that would be embarrassing since he said that his prophecy is how one could believe that he’s who he claims (John 13).  This chapter of John is pretty entertaining.  We have JC going into detail about who is going to betray him and then the apostles are evidently oblivious to this since they have supposedly no idea on why JC said “what you are about to do, do it quickly”.  I’m also wondering, does JC know that “satan entered into him (judas)” and was that who he was talking to, rather than to the meatpuppet Judas?  Considering that this god works often with Satan, this wouldn’t be beyond his MO.  Another thing, right after sending Judas off, JC seems to be indicating that he and this god are “glorified” by that. 
Then, we have JC saying

john 14: He has no hold over me, 31 but he comes so that the world may learn that I love the Father and do exactly what my Father has commanded me.

Which does seem to indicate that he was working with Satan, and he indeed must die, doing what his father requires e.g. his death.  He has to “leave the world”.  Now, he could commit suicide but that doesn’t seem to be what this god wants.  There has to be a fall guy. 
And finally, we have

John 17: None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

So much for free will.  Repeately, the gospel says that things were made to take place to fulfil prophecy.  Judas has no free will, Pilate has no free will, neither do the jewish leaders. All a puppet play for your mad god (if he actually existed and any of these events actually happened)

Yes, he did allow Satan to tempt Judas and he did allow Judas to choose to follow Satan’s temptation. That’s what it means to respect human freedom.

Wow, SC, I guess you think it’s respectful of human freedom to allow someone to be possessed and just stand by and allow it to make your propheies happen.  My oh my.  We see above that Judas had no choice, the sacrifice had to have been made to keep JC looking good. I’m wondering, do you think your god also so respected human freedom when he allowed Job’s family to be killed by this satan character too?  Or when this god killed the kids of people who didn’t obey him just because they were their children?  Gee, they have such “free will” when up against the whim of a god  

[screwtape]

You’ve always been honest with me that you are less familiar with the NT. I know you’re busy, but I’m surprised that you wouldn’t do some research before you make these assumptions. The Bible makes it clear that your assumptions are incorrect.

They are not assumptions.  They are speculations based on "it doesn't say otherwise". 

Jesus does not try to get away from the Pharisees once the time is right.

But he didn't really try, did he?  He didn't even try to talk Judas out oops!  I forgot.  It doesn't say he didn't!  So it follows that maybe he did try to get away because it doesn't say he didn't.

In fact, he actually goes to Jerusalem knowing what they will do to him. Along the way, he prophesies the suffering and death that he would endure. The clear message of the NT is that Jesus knew he would suffer death and chose to do so.

Surely he thought it was possible or even probable that was what could happen to him and he was just acknowledging it.   You know, like when Luke went to save Han from Jabba and he told Han "I used to live here, you know." And Han "prophesied", "You're gonna die here, you know. Convenient." 

And of course the clear message is what it is.  It is retrospective.  And as you pointed out, it doesn't say everything.  Maybe he was being dragged to Jerusalem by the apostles?  Does it say he wasn't?

Some ways that Jesus could have avoided crucifixion

An alternative explanation is, jesus wasn't too bright.

Anyway, my point was not that all those shenanegans I suggested happened.  I don't think any of it happened.  My point was your escape hatch is bad policy and you should stop using it.