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Offline albeto

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Question for Christians about Judas
« on: December 09, 2011, 01:19:22 PM »
Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell? 

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2011, 01:30:53 PM »
Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?
I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out. Satan wouldn't have wanted God's plan to work out, so he wouldn't have been interested in furthering that plan. Assuming he was smart enough to forsee the consequences of tempting Judas (And come on, how could he not have known? What, he thought God himself could be executed by crucifying the human form he had temporarily taken on? He couldn't imagine that a man could be made a martyr by such a betrayal and subsequent execution?), he should have gone out of his way to not cause the betrayal. Therefore, it's quite logical that in order to further the plan, Jesus would have actively coerced Judas to betray him.
I can't remember where I heard or read this. But it was copyed in one of my files.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 01:40:13 PM »
Again, that logic thing gets in the way.  Just believe and move along. ;)
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2011, 01:58:16 PM »
Again, that logic thing gets in the way.  Just believe and move along. ;)
funny how that works. Logic is just alittle to logical sometimes. :?
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2011, 03:11:14 PM »
Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?
I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out. Satan wouldn't have wanted God's plan to work out, so he wouldn't have been interested in furthering that plan.
So God needs murder to save people.  And Satan was instrumental in getting this to work at least in one gospel (funny how they don’t agree)
Quote
Luke 22: 3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.


Quote
Assuming he was smart enough to forsee the consequences of tempting Judas (And come on, how could he not have known? What, he thought God himself could be executed by crucifying the human form he had temporarily taken on? He couldn't imagine that a man could be made a martyr by such a betrayal and subsequent execution?), he should have gone out of his way to not cause the betrayal. Therefore, it's quite logical that in order to further the plan, Jesus would have actively coerced Judas to betray him.
I can't remember where I heard or read this. But it was copyed in one of my files.


Satan works with god constantly through the bible if one is to believe it.  We have Satan necessary for the fall, and evidently god wanted that to happen since he did nothing to stop it, like, oh, keeping the snake out which would have done nothing to any supposed “free will”.  Satan is making bets with Job.  Satan is required to have JC betrayed, if not willingly sacrificed (which seems not since damning someone for doing what you want seems rather unfair, and gee, God isn’t unfair is he?;) )   And in Revelation, God and satan are together again in one more buddy movie getting more people corrupted and killed.
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Offline Historicity

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2011, 03:14:31 PM »
In a couple theatrical version Judas figures Jesus does it hoping that it will provoke Jesus to ditch render-unto-Caesar-the-other-cheek bit and just use his full power to waste the Romans.

I forget the details but in Jesus Christ Superstar Judas figures Jesus knows about it and somehow he's just playing along.  In guilt and grief the actor puts a noose around his neck and wails the opening line to Mary Magdalene's love song, "I don't even know how to love Him" and steps off a ladder or rock.

Later on the soul of Judas reappears (sometimes surrounded by dancing angels) and mocks Jesus that he should have waiting until there was electronic media if he wanted to convert the world to a new message.


I saw footage of a Mexican production where the actor, of course, has a harness with a hook behind his neck.  The noose was not a slip knot.  The actor had done the stunt in many performances.  But he made a mistake and the rope somehow didn't get hooked.  Then he stepped off.  Of course the audience thought they were seeing the performance of a man looking like he was strangling but fortunately the cast or crew realized what had happened and got the unconscious man down in time.


Offline Historicity

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2011, 03:24:14 PM »
I once heard someone's report on the Bhagavad Gita.  (I haven't read the book.)

Arjuna has doubts about a war he is going to fight and is advised by his charioteer, Krishna.  Krishna is just a low class enlisted man but somehow -- I don't know what it is about him -- he seems so wise.

Finally Krishna reveals that he is God incarnate (again) and shows Arjuna the supernatural.  He shows him a vision of Heaven and Arjuna is amazed to see a dead warrior -- some distant relative -- in Heaven partying with the gods.  WTF????  I mean that guy was a selfish jerk.  Ah, explains Krishna, he was a born nobleman.  More WTF?  Krishna explains that noblemen are selfish jerks.  They were born that way[1].  That's part of their job assigned to them.  The dead warrior was so good at being a selfish jerk that he was deserving of reward.
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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2011, 03:27:27 PM »
Interestingly, I think the Christians are trying to turn Judas into a bit of a martyr with the uncovered Gospel of Judas.  It apparently says something along the lines of Judas was acting on Jesus' orders to fulfill Jesus' faith.  Seems a lot like why Snape killed Dumbledore now that I typed it!  I definitely prefer the latter fiction to the former!

Offline dloubet

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2011, 07:04:19 PM »
When you look at it this way, the Judas character is the one who performed a sacrifice. Calling what Jesus did a sacrifice is an insult to Judas. Judas selflessly died and went to hell so Christians could have their salvation.

Judas is supposedly suffering eternally for giving Christians what they want most.

That's just fucked up.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2011, 08:01:30 PM »
Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?
I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out. Satan wouldn't have wanted God's plan to work out, so he wouldn't have been interested in furthering that plan.
So God needs murder to save people.  And Satan was instrumental in getting this to work at least in one gospel (funny how they don’t agree)
Quote
Luke 22: 3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve. 4 And Judas went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. 5 They were delighted and agreed to give him money. 6 He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present.


Quote
Assuming he was smart enough to forsee the consequences of tempting Judas (And come on, how could he not have known? What, he thought God himself could be executed by crucifying the human form he had temporarily taken on? He couldn't imagine that a man could be made a martyr by such a betrayal and subsequent execution?), he should have gone out of his way to not cause the betrayal. Therefore, it's quite logical that in order to further the plan, Jesus would have actively coerced Judas to betray him.
I can't remember where I heard or read this. But it was copyed in one of my files.


Satan works with god constantly through the bible if one is to believe it.  We have Satan necessary for the fall, and evidently god wanted that to happen since he did nothing to stop it, like, oh, keeping the snake out which would have done nothing to any supposed “free will”.  Satan is making bets with Job.  Satan is required to have JC betrayed, if not willingly sacrificed (which seems not since damning someone for doing what you want seems rather unfair, and gee, God isn’t unfair is he?;) )   And in Revelation, God and satan are together again in one more buddy movie getting more people corrupted and killed.
Satan works with God,his right hand man you might say, Hmmmmmm must be why God is reluctant to put him(Satan) in hell. God remembers the good times with his BFF Satan and can't be bothered to lock him up.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2011, 08:03:07 PM »
^^^^ sort of like that Guy on the boards telling us about fine upstanding child molesters,why lock em up,they are good people
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2011, 08:04:16 PM »
When you look at it this way, the Judas character is the one who performed a sacrifice. Calling what Jesus did a sacrifice is an insult to Judas. Judas selflessly died and went to hell so Christians could have their salvation.

Judas is supposedly suffering eternally for giving Christians what they want most.

That's just fucked up.
Was there even a hell before this? Hell is a totally Christian invention isn't it?
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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 02:09:04 AM »
Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?
I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out.

Why couldn't Jesus just turn himself in?
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 10:42:18 AM »
Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?
I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out.

Why couldn't Jesus just turn himself in?

Indeed, submitting voluntarily, rather than being discovered because of "betrayal", would seem to fit the whole "sacrifice" notion a little better. I really see no need for betrayal in order for this to work. Perhaps Judas should talk to Occam about a shave.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 06:41:32 PM »
Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?
I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out.

Why couldn't Jesus just turn himself in?
What made it so hard to catch him in the first place?
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #15 on: December 14, 2011, 07:02:36 PM »
Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?
I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out.

Why couldn't Jesus just turn himself in?
What made it so hard to catch him in the first place?

Well, Jesus is slippery and flops around a lot, like a fish out of water. Not easy to catch.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline albeto

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #16 on: December 14, 2011, 08:47:38 PM »
What made it so hard to catch him in the first place?

Dude, he was the first priest.  He was setting precedent. 

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #17 on: December 14, 2011, 11:05:29 PM »
If there was any historicity in the story at all, it was probably a story morph from Jesus and Judas having a gay lover's spat. Wasn't there some kissing involved? The betrayal was probably just a forcing out of the closet. Maybe Jesus wasn't crucified, maybe he was just hung...
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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2011, 06:15:43 AM »
maybe he was just hung...

Then why didn't he have more women trying to get in his robe?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2011, 06:20:34 AM »
Hmm.  Well, I'm confused - is Judas in heaven or hell?

If he is in hell, and his actions were a necessary part of "The Plan", then that seems a bit harsh, especially if Jesus and Yahweh maneouvered him into it.

Conversely, if he is in heaven, is he not being rewarded for his betrayal?

Where do Christians think Judas went, and why?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2011, 06:59:35 AM »
But isn't the bigger question "was Judas a '"true Christian,"'TM?"   If he really believed then he wouldn't have killed himself, he would have prayed about it and Jebus would have told him it's ok that it's part of the plan. If he was never a true christian, how did he ever become an apostle?
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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2011, 07:02:34 AM »
Jesus was not trying to create "Christianity" as we know it today.  Assuming Jesus was actually real, he was simply telling people that the kingdom of God was coming.  The rest is fabrication at the highest levels, in order to prop up a new religion that wasn't Jewish and didn't require the OT to be followed to the letter.

Pathetic?  Quite.

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2011, 09:08:06 AM »
maybe he was just hung...

Then why didn't he have more women trying to get in his robe?

LOL! I'm going to take this silly premise and run with it (that's how religion works anyways, so what the hell?). Let's see what happens.

There was a man named Judas. He lived in the time of the man called Jesus Christ, and traveled in his company. Judas was in fact a very well endowed individual in the penile region. He becomes attracted to the prostitute that follows Jesus around too.  Judas has some spare money, so he has intercourse with Mary Magdalene (she is a prostitute after all, and knows a good ride when she sees one) and Judas ends up falling in love with her.

But MM is more impressed with Jesus, who, because of his alleged divine powers, is "necessarily" awesome in the sack. This makes Judas jealous. MM continues to follow Jesus around, even washing his feet, so slavish is her devotion. Judas gets really tired of seeing his buddy with his concubine, and decides to get back at him by turning him into the Roman authorities.

Jesus, who is still basically a decent guy, feels bad, and realizes his error in snubbing his buddy. He also remembers saying that one of his disciples would betray him and realizes maybe Judas saw this as license to betray him out of spite, in order to fulfill Jesus' words. Jesus, being Jesus, forgives Judas, and admits that he was wrong for boinking his woman, and should have anticipated Judas jealousy and anger.

Judas then watches as Jesus is led away. Judas knows what is coming for JC. He knows that he will be executed using the painful method of crucifixion, all because Judas turned him in. Judas realizes that his vengeance was overkill, and curses himself for his lack of emotional control. He knows that the wheels of death are turning towards JC, and nothing can stop them now. All he has to show for it is a sack of money. Meanwhile, Mary Magdalene is disgusted with Judas and doesn't want to have anything to do with him. Judas has now guaranteed that his love will never be fulfilled.

Judas, overcome with grief and shame at having turned his buddy in to be killed, and filled with sorrow for losing his true love forever, realizes that he has totally screwed up everything he loves. He is filled with despair and self loathing.

Then once he cools down a bit he starts thinking: what was Jesus doing having sex with a prostitute? Why would Jesus admit that he was wrong, if he was truly divine? How was he not able to anticipate my reaction? Thinking about this brings up other memories. How can God be love, if Jesus said that the way to God was to hate everyone? Judas thinks back to a lot of the things Jesus said, and sees that there are lots of things that contradict each other. Judas also wonders why Jesus is Ok with slavery and misogyny.

Judas begins to realize that he has been scammed. This Jesus guy wasn't the son of God, or of any god. He sees that Jesus was a con artist. He was just duping people to get a bunch of groupies. What's worse, it worked. There are already a small but dedicated group of individuals committed to spreading this lie. Filled with anger, Judas begins drinking to try to block out all of this insanity. He drinks until he falls asleep. Judas has a dream of the future legions of Jesus followers, and the rabid violence that they bring to all of the world. He sees whole civilizations cut down, man woman and child, in order to spread the "love" of Jesus. He sees cultures destroyed in order to bring Jesus' "salvation". He sees gays and black people being dragged behind trucks in Alabama while their still living bodies are battered and torn apart, all because such "people" are an offense to Jesus. He sees JC being resurrected, nearly 2000 years later, as some guy named "Bernie Madoff", whoever that is. This Bernie Madoff convinces people of false claims in order to take serious advantage of them.

Judas then wakes up, and realizes that this Bernie Madoff character in his dream is a lot like Jesus. Judas is thoroughly disgusted with Jesus, himself, the Apostles, Mary Magdalene, and the future of the world, all because his jealous actions led Jesus' silly prophecies to be fulfilled, strengthening the faith of those who believe, and setting the ground work for a religion that is a lie and will bring great evil to the world. Filled with self loathing and despair, Judas kills himself after going to an unmovable mountain by handling venomous snakes after drinking a vial of poison (as a final "Kiss my ass" to Jesus).

All because Judas was hung like the donkey that Jesus rode into Jerusalem.

The Gospel, according to Kaz.

(Note to theists: This contains as much truth(and speculation) as any of the Gospels, and is just as verifiable and reliable of a source regarding Jesus' life as Matthew, Mark, John or Luke, or any of Paul's old mail. It is also no more offensive than the Bible, which would have us believe things that are just as imagination based and full of violence and rape (and foreskins) as this is. Actually, my Gospel doesn't even contain rape or foreskins, so it is arguably LESS offensive than the Bible.)
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2011, 09:53:30 AM »
Mary Magdalene (she is a prostitute after all,

probably not.  That is a misogynestic interpretation of chauvenistic old church bigwigs.  There was a prostitute named mary, but it was not necessarily magdalene.
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Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2011, 10:06:51 AM »
Mary Magdalene (she is a prostitute after all,

probably not.  That is a misogynestic interpretation of chauvenistic old church bigwigs.  There was a prostitute named mary, but it was not necessarily magdalene.

Perhaps this is correct. I am merely expanding on what I was taught in church. And after all, it's all just a myth isn't it? I agree that it is misogynistic, but that tells us a lot about the motives of those perpetuate these myths for their own power. Why should it be surprising though that chauvinistic old church bigwigs would merely follow in the misogynistic foot steps of previous religious bigwigs?
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #25 on: December 15, 2011, 10:27:36 AM »
Wasn't it all part of God's plan?
Didn't Judas merely do what God wanted?
If Judas had not done what he did, wouldn't he have betrayed God?

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #26 on: December 15, 2011, 10:50:45 AM »
^Maybe?  Get ready for some "God is outside of time" reading. 
http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-betray-Jesus.html
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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #27 on: December 15, 2011, 11:29:23 AM »
Why wouldn't Jesus, who supposedly loves each one of us ever so much, try to stop Judas from betraying him when he knew the consequence would be spending an eternity in hell?
I have heard it told like this, and I could see how it would seem correct to a Christian. Without the betrayal, the most important Christian event would not have taken place. So Judas had to betray Jesus for God's plan to work out. Satan wouldn't have wanted God's plan to work out, so he wouldn't have been interested in furthering that plan. Assuming he was smart enough to forsee the consequences of tempting Judas (And come on, how could he not have known? What, he thought God himself could be executed by crucifying the human form he had temporarily taken on? He couldn't imagine that a man could be made a martyr by such a betrayal and subsequent execution?), he should have gone out of his way to not cause the betrayal. Therefore, it's quite logical that in order to further the plan, Jesus would have actively coerced Judas to betray him.
I can't remember where I heard or read this. But it was copyed in one of my files.

That's why I've wondered why all the crying and moaning over Jesus's sacrifice of just having a crappy three day weekend for your sins, when Judas actually made the real sacrifice, an eternity of torture. Dying and coming back isn't a sacrifice.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline changeling

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2011, 01:49:21 PM »
^Maybe?  Get ready for some "God is outside of time" reading. 
http://www.gotquestions.org/Judas-betray-Jesus.html

I see, It was just God’s foreknowledge, not his will.
Judas could have changed his choice.
So God did not so love the world that he gave his only begotten son,
He merely knew in advance that Judas was going to get him killed.

That foreknowledge crap has as many holes in it as does free will.
The level of dumb they have to sell, is only made remotely possible by the level of flocking their sheep are willing to do in the name of rewards for no thought. quote: Kin Hell

"Faith is the enemy of evidence, for when we know the truth, no faith is required." Graybeard