Question for Christians about Judas

[kevinagain]

i'm following this conversation from the side, but it's worth pointing out that free will is explicitly supported in christian scripture in at least one place.

sirach has six verses that spell it out:

Sir 15:11  Say not thou, It is through the Lord that I fell away: for thou oughtest not to do the things that he hateth.
Sir 15:12  Say not thou, He hath caused me to err: for he hath no need of the sinful man.
Sir 15:13  The Lord hateth all abomination; and they that fear God love it not.
Sir 15:14  He himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his counsel;
Sir 15:15  If thou wilt, to keep the commandments, and to perform acceptable faithfulness.
Sir 15:16  He hath set fire and water before thee: stretch forth thy hand unto whether thou wilt.

god presents genuine choices, according to this passage, and human beings are free to choose between them.

[kaziglu bey]

 Well, your God created them that way, didn't he? BTW, Weak, selfish and small minded are EXACTLY the kind of followers God wants.

Sorry I hope you don't mind me asking , but do you have any evidence of that statement?

Weak: God does not want people who question his cruelty. He does not cherish independence. God wants slaves.
Selfish: The only reason to do good is for the believer to obtain reward. Take away eternal bliss in heaven. How many followers would there be then? They only believe because they think there is something in it for them.
Small Minded: See Genesis.  God wanted his creation to follow without question, have no knowledge of good or evil, and be obedient little slaves. He did not want those who would questions his lies, motives, or habitual violence. This is also what God's followers must do in order to obtain salvation.

I realize this is more of an explanation than evidence. However, since there is no evidence that God exists, there is no actual evidence of what he really wants. It is my interpretation based on the words of the Bible and actions of the God described therein.

Of course I don't mind that you ask me to support my claim. After all, I am an Atheist 

[kaziglu bey]

i'm following this conversation from the side, but it's worth pointing out that free will is explicitly supported in christian scripture in at least one place.

sirach has six verses that spell it out:

Sir 15:11  Say not thou, It is through the Lord that I fell away: for thou oughtest not to do the things that he hateth.
Sir 15:12  Say not thou, He hath caused me to err: for he hath no need of the sinful man.
Sir 15:13  The Lord hateth all abomination; and they that fear God love it not.
Sir 15:14  He himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his counsel;
Sir 15:15  If thou wilt, to keep the commandments, and to perform acceptable faithfulness.
Sir 15:16  He hath set fire and water before thee: stretch forth thy hand unto whether thou wilt.

god presents genuine choices, according to this passage, and human beings are free to choose between them.

It's also worth pointing out that Free Will is also not supported by the Bible.     

From http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/free_will.html

"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

    "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

    "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9

    "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5

    "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

We are predestined according to the good pleasure of his will. We are God's toys.

[riley2112]

 Well, your God created them that way, didn't he? BTW, Weak, selfish and small minded are EXACTLY the kind of followers God wants.

Sorry I hope you don't mind me asking , but do you have any evidence of that statement?

Weak: God does not want people who question his cruelty. He does not cherish independence. God wants slaves.
Selfish: The only reason to do good is for the believer to obtain reward. Take away eternal bliss in heaven. How many followers would there be then? They only believe because they think there is something in it for them.
Small Minded: See Genesis.  God wanted his creation to follow without question, have no knowledge of good or evil, and be obedient little slaves. He did not want those who would questions his lies, motives, or habitual violence. This is also what God's followers must do in order to obtain salvation.

I realize this is more of an explanation than evidence. However, since there is no evidence that God exists, there is no actual evidence of what he really wants. It is my interpretation based on the words of the Bible and actions of the God described therein.

Of course I don't mind that you ask me to support my claim. After all, I am an Atheist 

Just so I understand , You have no evidence at all to the claim you are making, and being that you are an atheist you have no believe in God or any believe in what he would want. It that correct? If so then is it possible that you are just mocking the other person's claim?

[riley2112]

i'm following this conversation from the side, but it's worth pointing out that free will is explicitly supported in christian scripture in at least one place.

sirach has six verses that spell it out:

Sir 15:11  Say not thou, It is through the Lord that I fell away: for thou oughtest not to do the things that he hateth.
Sir 15:12  Say not thou, He hath caused me to err: for he hath no need of the sinful man.
Sir 15:13  The Lord hateth all abomination; and they that fear God love it not.
Sir 15:14  He himself made man from the beginning, and left him in the hand of his counsel;
Sir 15:15  If thou wilt, to keep the commandments, and to perform acceptable faithfulness.
Sir 15:16  He hath set fire and water before thee: stretch forth thy hand unto whether thou wilt.

god presents genuine choices, according to this passage, and human beings are free to choose between them.

It's also worth pointing out that Free Will is also not supported by the Bible.     

From http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/free_will.html

"And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

    "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate.... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." -- Romans 8:29-30

    "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began." -- 2 Timothy 1:9

    "He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." -- Ephesians 1:4-5

    "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation." -- 2 Thessalonians 2:13

We are predestined according to the good pleasure of his will. We are God's toys.

So you are saying that we ( you and I ) are the toys of someone that you say does not exist.

[Azdgari]

Just so I understand , You have no evidence at all to the claim you are making, and being that you are an atheist you have no believe in God or any believe in what he would want. It that correct? If so then is it possible that you are just mocking the other person's claim?

Evidence for his claims about the character described in the Bible abounds, and he has declared that he is willing to provide it if you ask.

Evidence that his claims apply to an actual deity does not exist, because the Bible does not evidently describe an actual deity.

[kaziglu bey]

So you are saying that we ( you and I ) are the toys of someone that you say does not exist.

Not at all. For a person who does believe in God, that person is essentially God's toy, per the description of God and his followers in God's alleged biography. I wonder if you take every statement in the Bible with comparable literalness and at face value? Perhaps what I said was merely "metaphorical" and "not meant to be taken out of context".   

[riley2112]

Just so I understand , You have no evidence at all to the claim you are making, and being that you are an atheist you have no believe in God or any believe in what he would want. It that correct? If so then is it possible that you are just mocking the other person's claim?

Evidence for his claims about the character described in the Bible abounds, and he has declared that he is willing to provide it if you ask.

Evidence that his claims apply to an actual deity does not exist, because the Bible does not evidently describe an actual deity.

I would truly enjoy his interpretations of a book that he does not believe in so that I in turn could compare it to all of the people that study the book and still can not agree on what it means. Hell it couldn't hurt.

[riley2112]

So you are saying that we ( you and I ) are the toys of someone that you say does not exist.

Not at all. For a person who does believe in God, that person is essentially God's toy, per the description of God and his followers in God's alleged biography. I wonder if you take every statement in the Bible with comparable literalness and at face value? Perhaps what I said was merely "metaphorical" and "not meant to be taken out of context".   

I don't take the book at word for word, They had me then I got sober and came to the part where some guy was in a whales belly for 3 days. That is when I said, Wait a damn min. 

[kaziglu bey]

Just so I understand , You have no evidence at all to the claim you are making,

If by evidence you mean something that is demonstrable and meaningful in the real world, then of course not, because God is not a part of the real world. If you mean what the Bible says about God, his actions, behavior, attitudes, and his followers, then yes, as Azdgari pointed out, evidence abounds.

and being that you are an atheist you have no believe in God or any believe in what he would want. It that correct?

Of course I have no belief in God or what he would want. However there are plenty of folks that do, and they often make the world a worse place because of such beliefs.

If so then is it possible that you are just mocking the other person's claim?

If by mocking you mean pointing out the absurdity, ridiculousness, and baseless nature of Christianity, then sure, I'm mocking. If you mean ridiculing someone for no reason other than spite, degrade, and humiliate them, then no, you are wrong.

[kaziglu bey]

I don't take the book at word for word,

Why do you hold poor little me to a higher standard than God?

They had me then I got sober and came to the part where some guy was in a whales belly for 3 days. That is when I said, Wait a damn min. 

I need to be clear here. Are you a believer or an atheist? Because the tone of your last few comments in regard to mine sound much more like a theist. Typically Atheists assume that when other Atheists talk about God in seemingly affirmative ways,[1] they are just demonstrating the silliness of the Bible and it's God.

1.	such as "we are God's toys"

[riley2112]

,

If by evidence you mean something that is demonstrable and meaningful in the real world, then of course not, because God is not a part of the real world. If you mean what the Bible says about God, his actions, behavior, attitudes, and his followers, then yes, as Azdgari pointed out, evidence abounds.

You are aware that any verse you use to show evidence of your claim, I in turn can find a verse from the same book that shows evidence against your claim, which is why I find this so amusing..you and I both know that that book can be very confusing.

Of course I have no belief in God or what he would want. However there are plenty of folks that do, and they often make the world a worse place because of such beliefs.

Being that I do not know what you would or would not find worse than what is , I find that to be just an opinion which we all have one to some extent

If by mocking you mean pointing out the absurdity, ridiculousness, and baseless nature of Christianity, then sure, I'm mocking. If you mean ridiculing someone for no reason other than spite, degrade, and humiliate them, then no, you are wrong.

It relieves me to know that I am wrong about my assumption, It can be so hard to tell at times. Don't you agree?

[riley2112]

I don't take the book at word for word,

Why do you hold poor little me to a higher standard than God?

They had me then I got sober and came to the part where some guy was in a whales belly for 3 days. That is when I said, Wait a damn min. 

I need to be clear here. Are you a believer or an atheist? Because the tone of your last few comments in regard to mine sound much more like a theist. Typically Atheists assume that when other Atheists talk about God in seemingly affirmative ways,[1] they are just demonstrating the silliness of the Bible and it's God.

1.	such as "we are God's toys"

I believe in God , I am not sure about the Bible being his true word. I at times find it a little confusing being that at one time it say one thing and then in another it will say another thing.

[12 Monkeys]

I don't take the book at word for word,

Why do you hold poor little me to a higher standard than God?

They had me then I got sober and came to the part where some guy was in a whales belly for 3 days. That is when I said, Wait a damn min. 

I need to be clear here. Are you a believer or an atheist? Because the tone of your last few comments in regard to mine sound much more like a theist. Typically Atheists assume that when other Atheists talk about God in seemingly affirmative ways,[1] they are just demonstrating the silliness of the Bible and it's God.

1.	such as "we are God's toys"

I believe in God , I am not sure about the Bible being his true word. I at times find it a little confusing being that at one time it say one thing and then in another it will say another thing.

So if the OT and NT are made up and misleading,basically flat out lies,what exactly do you have R2112 to base this God character on? Are you on the fence or do you just believe because its easy way to accept the end reward?

[kaziglu bey]

You are aware that any verse you use to show evidence of your claim, I in turn can find a verse from the same book that shows evidence against your claim,

Yes, these internal inconsistencies in the Bible are one of the reasons I[1] think it is BS.

which is why I find this so amusing..you and I both know that that book can be very confusing.

Yes, it can be, but the overall message is that God is a violent bully. It's pretty consistent about that at least.

Being that I do not know what you would or would not find worse than what is , I find that to be just an opinion which we all have one to some extent

How about an example then? Acting on God's alleged orders, there are children who die because of Proverbs 13:24. If God did not allegedly order such things, and his followers were not happy to oblige him, there would be less child who are abused or die because of belief in God. Not having children die violent deaths at the hands of their parents because of God's commands would to me make the world a better place. Not a perfect place, a better place. I really don't think that corporal punishment (especially those resulting in severe injury or death) is something that is common for atheists. Even for an atheist who does such a thing, it is not a result of being an atheist, it's because that person is a crappy parent. The Christian doesn't have that excuse, because their Good Book clearly tells them to beat the hell out of their children.

It relieves me to know that I am wrong about my assumption, It can be so hard to tell at times. Don't you agree?

Yes, I agree that, especially on the internet, it can be very difficult to tell whether someone is mocking another, or just offering a feisty criticism.

 Here is something that is merely meant to be helpful: Please use the preview button to see if your quotes are coming out right. It can be very confusing reading posts that are not properly posted. I have made posts using quotes without previewing them, and it usually doesn't turn out good.

1.	and many others

[riley2112]

I don't take the book at word for word,

Why do you hold poor little me to a higher standard than God?

They had me then I got sober and came to the part where some guy was in a whales belly for 3 days. That is when I said, Wait a damn min. 

I need to be clear here. Are you a believer or an atheist? Because the tone of your last few comments in regard to mine sound much more like a theist. Typically Atheists assume that when other Atheists talk about God in seemingly affirmative ways,[1] they are just demonstrating the silliness of the Bible and it's God.

1.	such as "we are God's toys"

I believe in God , I am not sure about the Bible being his true word. I at times find it a little confusing being that at one time it say one thing and then in another it will say another thing.

So if the OT and NT are made up and misleading,basically flat out lies,what exactly do you have R2112 to base this God character on? Are you on the fence or do you just believe because its easy way to accept the end reward?

I didn't say either was made up , I think it is possible that they once had meaning and maybe still have some today, But it has been a long time , and over the years man may have stuck their wants in there. I don't think I am on the fence, but at times it sure feels that way. Maybe I do believe because it is easier for me to be a good husband , a good dad, better than I was before. I think velkyn put it best. Some of us just needs that carrot on a string to be that good guy that the family needs. Hell I don't know, Maybe I am that guy.

[Brakeman]

Riley,

Once you figure out that mankind wrote all the speeches of god, then you are left with the realization that god isn't contacting you. He doesn't talk to us, he doesn't show his face. He is absent.

When you realize that he is always absent, it's not too far of a shot to the realization that he is so absent that he doesn't exist.

[riley2112]

 Here is something that is merely meant to be helpful: Please use the preview button to see if your quotes are coming out right. It can be very confusing reading posts that are not properly posted. I have made posts using quotes without previewing them, and it usually doesn't turn out good.

Thank you , I will.

[Azdgari]

^^ Irony!

[SimpleCaveman]

Hi 12 Monkeys,

You have managed NOT to answer the direct question to ANYBODY posting here.

“Anybody” is a ridiculous exaggeration. As for your questions, dude, I’m trying. Which question are you asking me? You’ve asked questions about whether something is free will or not, and you’ve asked questions about which choice is the right choice. When I try to understand the latter you go back to the former. When I go back to the former you bring in the latter.

This statement is a contradiction. Free will is exactly the fact that we have the choice. What do you imagine free will to be? Choosing without any consequences?

So the Guy who Chooses NOT to listen to God by not killing everything in the villiage USES his brain to say no to God....gets hell is that what you are saying? If he CHOOSES to listen to God and kill EVERYTHING in the villiage his reward- heaven. So by following his brain he gets punished by God,by submitting to God's command and going against his better judgement HELL.

 God himself is commanding HIS follower to DISOBEY a COMMANDMENT,thou shalt not kill. What "choice"would you make? follow Gods command or his commandment?

You’re looking at commands that God made in two different parts of the Bible for two different reasons and trying to say that there’s a contradiction. There is no contradiction. Without argument at this time, let’s take all the commands that you are referring to at face value. God gives a command in the Decalogue of thou shalt not kill. That’s a general command that God gives to his people to direct their lives. Then, in order for them to conquer Canaan, he gives them another command of herem warfare. Two different purposes.

Do you have kids? If you do, then I think you experience this with your kids. There are certain rules in our house that our kids are to follow, like what time to be in bed. However, there are times when we change that bedtime. Either way, they know that if they break the rule and disobey my command then they have negative consequences. They don’t have difficulty understanding that there is no contradiction in the two.

[kaziglu bey]

I believe in God , I am not sure about the Bible being his true word. I at times find it a little confusing being that at one time it say one thing and then in another it will say another thing.

Confusing? It's absolute rubbish. If the book on which belief in the Christian God is based is more than a little suspect in its consistency, it really doesn't lend support to the conclusion that the Christian God is real.

Let's enter fantasy land for minute. Let's suppose that large part of the information on evolution contradicted each itself.[1] Would you be comfortable saying "I believe in Evolution, I am just not sure that the research which is meant to support Evolution is true". ? I really don't think you would.

It would be like saying you believed that Heimdallr was the guardian of the Bifrost bridge, even though you think the Poetic Edda, Prose Edda, and Heimskringla are nonsense.

Let me guess. You base your belief more on your "Personal Relationship with God" than the Scriptures which are supposed to be inspired by him? If so, then why does your "Personal Relationship" with God happen to be the Christian one, and not Heimdallr, or Vishnu, or Anubis, or Damballah?

1.	I really hope you realize that this is not the case.

[kaziglu bey]

 Here is something that is merely meant to be helpful: Please use the preview button to see if your quotes are coming out right. It can be very confusing reading posts that are not properly posted. I have made posts using quotes without previewing them, and it usually doesn't turn out good.

Thank you , I will.

Are you sure?

Note: It's so bad that when I tried to make fun of it here, it made MY post look messed up! I had to scratch out some quote formatting to make my reply work. Hence, the edit. Seriously though Riley, I'm not trying to be rude. It's just very difficult to follow badly formatted posts. If you need a refresher, I suggest the tutorial http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,16778.0.html

[riley2112]

Riley,

Once you figure out that mankind wrote all the speeches of god, then you are left with the realization that god isn't contacting you. He doesn't talk to us, he doesn't show his face. He is absent.

When you realize that he is always absent, it's not too far of a shot to the realization that he is so absent that he doesn't exist.

Something to think about. It would be easier if he would just come on down and say hi or go to hell or something.

[riley2112]

 Here is something that is merely meant to be helpful: Please use the preview button to see if your quotes are coming out right. It can be very confusing reading posts that are not properly posted. I have made posts using quotes without previewing them, and it usually doesn't turn out good.

Thank you , I will.

Are you sure?

Well, I will try to.

[riley2112]

I believe in God , I am not sure about the Bible being his true word. I at times find it a little confusing being that at one time it say one thing and then in another it will say another thing.

Confusing? It's absolute rubbish. If the book on which belief in the Christian God is based is more than a little suspect in its consistency, it really doesn't lend support to the conclusion that the Christian God is real.

Let's enter fantasy land for minute. Let's suppose that large part of the information on evolution contradicted each itself.[1] Would you be comfortable saying "I believe in Evolution, I am just not sure that the research which is meant to support Evolution is true". ? I really don't think you would.

It would be like saying you believed that Heimdallr was the guardian of the Bifrost bridge, even though you think the Poetic Edda, Prose Edda, and Heimskringla are nonsense.

Let me guess. You base your belief more on your "Personal Relationship with God" than the Scriptures which are supposed to be inspired by him? If so, then why does your "Personal Relationship" with God happen to be the Christian one, and not Heimdallr, or Vishnu, or Anubis, or Damballah?

1.	I really hope you realize that this is not the case.

You know I have given that some thought, And I would say it happen to be Christian because of the area I live. If I lived in a different area I more that likely would be worshiping God in a different way.

[kevinagain]

i'm following this conversation from the side, but it's worth pointing out that free will is explicitly supported in christian scripture in at least one place.

It's also worth pointing out that Free Will is also not supported by the Bible.

. . .     

We are predestined according to the good pleasure of his will. We are God's toys.

that's an interesting approach to the question.

what makes your scripture more accurate than mine?

[SimpleCaveman]

Hi kaziglu bey,

Happy New Year! I hope you had a great night last night. We did.

I really don't understand why Christians demonize those people who brought about the alleged crucifixion of Jesus.

First, my post didn’t demonize them for crucifying Jesus. It didn’t even demonize them. Second, are you saying that those characteristics are to be lauded? Protecting power and station? Greed? Betrayal? Killing out of fear of losing one's position? Mob behavior?

I don’t really think you’re saying those are ideals that we should applaud, are you? It’s for those types of traits that they would be punished.

[kaziglu bey]

that's an interesting approach to the question.

what makes your scripture more accurate than mine?

First of all, it's not my scripture. It isn't even your scripture. If you mean what makes the scripture I quoted more accurate than yours, than the answer is nothing. They are both statements from the same book, allegedly inspired or said by the same being, yet they do not  say the same thing.  In fact they say entirely contrary and mutually exclusive statements. Not exactly what you would expect from something that is supposed to be inerrant truth, is it?

[kevinagain]

First of all, it's not my scripture. It isn't even your scripture. If you mean what makes the scripture I quoted more accurate than yours, than the answer is nothing. They are both statements from the same book, allegedly inspired or said by the same being, yet they do not  say the same thing.  In fact they say entirely contrary and mutually exclusive statements. Not exactly what you would expect from something that is supposed to be inerrant truth, is it?

hmmn

you're the one who made the assertion that it was trustworthy in its depiction of predestination. then you seemed to be saying that it's not trustworthy, but only in those places where it contradicts you.

which is it?

if it can be trusted, why do you believe it when it asserts predestination, but disbelieve it when it says something else?

if it can't be trusted, then why do you think it's a reliable depiction to christianity in the first place?