Author Topic: Question for Christians about Judas  (Read 17901 times)

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Offline velkyn

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #145 on: December 29, 2011, 03:49:30 PM »
and to get out of the time travel tangent, I think Madbunny's card is appropriate here

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Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #146 on: December 29, 2011, 08:50:42 PM »
Hi 12 Monkeys (and everyone else),

You’ve all been quite prolific today. I think I’ve caught up and understand the main points.

Killing by command of God is hardly free-will.
you missed the point....Obey the commands not of your free-will,God rewards you....where do you think the guy is who dis-obeyed God right now, heaven?
Sorry. I went according to what you said above. It seems that you’re now saying that because there are negative consequences for one of the choices that means there is no free will. That’s not what free will is. When we make choices there are always consequences. The fact that we can make those choices based on reason and will and we are not limited to the biology and history is what free will is about.

You may not like the fact that there are negative consequences for some actions. My kids don’t either.

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #147 on: December 29, 2011, 08:58:35 PM »
Hi dloubet,

Long time no talk to. I hope you’ve been well.

What would have been the problem with presenting the Judas character with an INFORMED decision? Let him know exactly what would befall him and Jesus if he turned Jesus in, and what would happen if he didn't.
We don’t know how much information Judas had. He may have had much more than we understand. He may have had none. Your question assumes he did not have as much information as you think he should have. It also assumes that he would not have made the same decision. We don’t know those things.

However, from an earlier post I explained some things about what Judas would have known based on our understanding of the times and what the Bible says, which includes that the betrayal of his teacher was a serious wrong. He did have enough information to make his decision. He also knew what happens to people who sin, because his teacher talked about that a lot, too. To say that he didn’t have enough information to make an informed decision, even though he didn’t have EVERYTHING, is to ignore what we’re told about the situation.

If the information one has is crap, then the decisions one makes based on that information are crap. Why are we held guilty for acting on crap information?
Yes, CICO. And you are right, we are not held guilty of mortal sin for acting on crap information. I don’t agree that his information was crap. See above and previous post.

That's not free will, that's a guessing game. That's being victimized by incomplete and incorrect information beyond one's control.
From an earlier discussion I would have thought you had a better understanding of free will. However, maybe it is just rhetoric to say that’s not free will. As I’m sure you know, free will is a characteristic of our being, our existence. It’s not an event in our lives. But maybe you mean something more like “He’s not using his free will, that’s a guessing game,” which isn’t really true either, is it? In a silly example, the contestants on Let’s Make A Deal are using their free will and it’s often a guessing game.

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #148 on: December 29, 2011, 09:05:08 PM »
Hi kaziglu bey,

Thanks for the response. Hope all is going well with you. Taking any vacation?

I disagree. God doesn't ask their opinions about his plan. Believers don't get to offer God feedback on his plan. They are not permitted to question whether this plan is right or wrong.
You are correct. But that’s not what I’m claiming elevates us beyond just pawns. God has the plan because he is omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, etc. He could have a plan that doesn’t require our participation. For example, he could have had Jesus incarnated without anyone knowing. However, he asked Mary if she would be the mother of God and allowed her to participate in our salvation by saying “Yes” if she wanted to. All throughout history, people have been active participants in God’s plan of salvation.

Sometimes he does make use of people’s choices without their realizing it. My general statement is just that, general. The Sanhedrin (singular or plural?) were intent on their own evil plans without realizing that they were part of bringing about the salvation of the world. However, what they did they did of their own free will. God used their choices. He did not direct their choices.

What about Noah's Flood or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah? God didn't have any problem doing that himself.
Again you are correct. God does intervene directly on his own. He does both.

And just out of curiosity, how is it that YOU are aware of what GOD chooses to do?
Because I read and learn what the Catholic Church teaches – Magisterium, Apostolic authority, all that stuff. :)

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #149 on: December 29, 2011, 09:32:18 PM »
Hi monkeymind,

My niece was just here. She was asking me to write something over and over again. I had no free will in the matter. :)

Well Yaway doesn't have free will:

Free Will and Omniscience

The two are mutually exclusive.
So, you say. But how do you know? You gave an interesting argument, but that argument is from your intelligent, but not omniscient, mind. Do you know what omniscience is? You don’t. None of us do. We have a definition, but we don’t really know what it is. We can begin to imagine what it is, but we can’t really get very far. We can argue about it based on what we do know and I find that interesting. However, since we don’t know what omniscience truly is, we have to admit that it is possible that free will and omniscience are not truly contradictory. On the other hand, maybe they are. We don’t know.

I’m finding cases where people can, at best, be agnostic about the answer to a question, because there are things about it that we don’t know. But instead people make the leap of faith to say that one side of the argument is true and the other is not. I’m sure I do that, too, I hope without realizing it. When I realize it, then I would hope that I would admit that I don’t know and my leap of faith is baseless. I’m sure most others would, too.

I think it would be interesting to talk about your arguments. However, we have to start with the fact that we’re very limited in what we know, and it’s speculative to get specific about something like omniscience.

So lets talk about your argument. It’s very challenging. I recommend reading St. Thomas Aquinas. He was a brilliant theologian and philosopher and spent some time on this topic. I haven’t read Aquinas, so this is my own thinking; much, much less brilliant.

If God has free will, He can make choices.
I find the way you started it off to be interesting. Often this discussion is about whether we can have free will if God is omniscient. Kudos on putting an interesting spin on it.

If He can make choices
I wonder about this. Can God make choices? One of the thoughts about God is that he is immutable, that is doesn’t change. If he doesn’t change, then he can’t make choices. Does that mean he does not have free will? I think it does. What do you think?

I’ll do some reading of Aquinas.

Offline dloubet

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #150 on: December 30, 2011, 02:38:43 AM »
Quote
We don’t know how much information Judas had.

Well, how about you? If you were Judas, with the information you have, would you have "betrayed" Jesus?

And why would anyone even think to call it betrayal? Surely Judas was performing the god's plan, how can that be called betrayal? If you're doing exactly what someone wants you to do, you're demonsterably not betraying them.

Quote
From an earlier discussion I would have thought you had a better understanding of free will.

I do, I don't believe it exists at all, or even can exist. But I still grant the premise for the sake of argument. Just like I grant the premise of a god for the sake of argument. I grant these premises to show where they are inconsistent.

Quote
However, maybe it is just rhetoric to say that’s not free will.

No. It's not rhetoric. Free will is supposedly the thing that makes one responsible for their moral choices. One must be responsible for their moral choices so that they can be judged by those choices. But it falls apart. Your Lets Make a Deal analogy is perfect: Are you really making a moral choice if your options are Curtain Number 1, Curtain Number 2, and Curtain Number 3? Are you really responsible for the random result of your blind choice, even if it employed your "free will"? That's what bad information turns our moral choices into: a crap-shoot. Yet the god supposedly judges us on the results, on the random roll of the dice.

Denis Loubet

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #151 on: December 30, 2011, 07:20:37 AM »
Quote
Free Will and Omniscience
The two are mutually exclusive.
So, you say. But how do you know? You gave an interesting argument, but that argument is from your intelligent, but not omniscient, mind. Do you know what omniscience is? You don’t. None of us do. We have a definition, but we don’t really know what it is. We can begin to imagine what it is, but we can’t really get very far. We can argue about it based on what we do know and I find that interesting. However, since we don’t know what omniscience truly is, we have to admit that it is possible that free will and omniscience are not truly contradictory. On the other hand, maybe they are. We don’t know.

I think it would be interesting to talk about your arguments. However, we have to start with the fact that we’re very limited in what we know, and it’s speculative to get specific about something like omniscience.

So lets talk about your argument. It’s very challenging. I recommend reading St. Thomas Aquinas. He was a brilliant theologian and philosopher and spent some time on this topic. I haven’t read Aquinas, so this is my own thinking; much, much less brilliant.

If God has free will, He can make choices.
I find the way you started it off to be interesting. Often this discussion is about whether we can have free will if God is omniscient. Kudos on putting an interesting spin on it.

If He can make choices
I wonder about this. Can God make choices? One of the thoughts about God is that he is immutable, that is doesn’t change. If he doesn’t change, then he can’t make choices. Does that mean he does not have free will? I think it does. What do you think?

I’ll do some reading of Aquinas.
So...how's it hangin'? Hope well. How's the wife and kids? Good Xmas? Well,  give the fam my love.

Thing is Simple Caveman, I'm a simple monkeymind & I don't care about what I can't know. I think I'll just go with what I can know, if you don't mind.

I'm sure Tommy is kewl, but I'm really not that interested in philosphic Catholic priests from yesteryear. I prefer people from this century. That way if we get in a bind about what soandso said, we can contact them. Come to thin of it, I'm not interested in current philosphic Catholic priests either. But if you want to report back to me with the low-down on this guy, I'll read it at least.


« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 07:35:21 AM by monkeymind »
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Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #152 on: December 30, 2011, 10:10:38 AM »
Good Morning dloubet,

Thanks for responding, and at such a late (early?) hour, no less.

Well, how about you? If you were Judas, with the information you have, would you have "betrayed" Jesus?
Good question and an important question. Let me start with, if I were one of the Apostles, would I betray Jesus? Well, in fact, from what we know, they all did to varying degrees. From what I recall, all of them abandoned Jesus at the end out of fear for their own lives. To be more specific to your question, would I have turned Jesus over to the authorities? I would hope not. Particularly based on what I had said before about the teacher/disciple relationship and about the teachings and example of Jesus. I think I’m a better person than that. If I had, though, I hope I would have trusted then, because I do now, in the mercy of God, and not despaired.

You seem to be ignoring how much Judas would know about the situation, about the standards of that relationship, about the teachings and example of Jesus, about Jewish faith, about right and wrong. It seems that you want to set Judas up to be an unwitting patsy, but to do so you have to ignore all the information that Judas almost certainly did have.
 
But back to your question one more time. The problem is that we don’t have all the information about Judas. We don’t know why he betrayed Jesus. We don’t know his inner motives or inner demons in that act. More importantly, along these lines we must ask the question, do we know why he despaired and killed himself? We think we do; because he saw what was happening to Jesus and regretted it. He even gave the money back. But why didn’t he trust in the love and mercy of God? We don’t know.

And why would anyone even think to call it betrayal? Surely Judas was performing the god's plan, how can that be called betrayal? If you're doing exactly what someone wants you to do, you're demonsterably not betraying them.
Silly question. Because it was a betrayal. Even if it was a required part of God’s plan it was still a betrayal. I think the late hour was affecting you. :) As before, and this is my own speculation, I don’t think it was a required part of God’s plan. I’ll have to see if the Church says anything about that. It seems to me that if Judas had chosen not to betray Jesus, that the Sanhedrin would have still found a way to bring him to trial. Judas’ part was, in one sense, such a small one. He identified Jesus in the garden. The Sanhedrin could have gotten many people to identify Jesus. I wonder if there was a Jewish law that placed requirements on the witness to Jesus’ identity.

No. It's not rhetoric. Free will is supposedly the thing that makes one responsible for their moral choices. One must be responsible for their moral choices so that they can be judged by those choices.
Free will is (a necessary) part of what makes us responsible for our moral choices. However, you are confusing will with knowledge. The 3 conditions for mortal sin are
  • The action being taken must be of grave matter.
  • The person committing the action must have full knowledge about it, e.g. that it is grave, that it is wrong, that it is happening, etc. (good vs. bad information)
  • The person must give deliberate consent. (free will)
If a person picks door number 2 and that somehow causes someone to be killed, then they are not guilty of mortal sin. If they pick door number 2 knowing that it would cause someone to be killed, then they are guilty of a mortal sin.

That's what bad information turns our moral choices into: a crap-shoot. Yet the god supposedly judges us on the results, on the random roll of the dice.
You can now see that it is you who have bad information about how God judges us. You can continue with that bad information, if you want. However, since you know that it’s bad, you have more responsibility for your choices.

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #153 on: December 30, 2011, 12:41:13 PM »
So...how's it hangin'? Hope well. How's the wife and kids? Good Xmas? Well,  give the fam my love.
Low and to the left, thank you. :) Ah, high school was such a good time.

The family is doing great. Yes, we had a wonderful Christmas day (even with the stove going out) and are having a brilliant Christmas season. The weather isn’t great, but we don’t have it as bad as some others.

The fam said the same to you. Thanks. :)

Thing is Simple Caveman, I'm a simple monkeymind & I don't care about what I can't know. I think I'll just go with what I can know, if you don't mind.
Okay. I understand that point. But your post already went with something we can’t know, omniscience. Didn’t it?

It is interesting to discuss it sticking with only what we can, or think, we know, but we have to always realize there’s more than we understand and our conjectures only go so far.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #154 on: December 30, 2011, 12:46:25 PM »
Quote
It is interesting to discuss it sticking with only what we can, or think, we know, but we have to always realize there’s more than we understand and our conjectures only go so far.

That there is a god and that it is omniscient is not quite even conjecture.

Noun:   
An opinion or conclusion formed on the basis of incomplete information.

I see no evidence for  god or omniscience.
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Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #155 on: December 30, 2011, 12:58:18 PM »
I see no evidence for  god or omniscience.
I understand. I’m not arguing for the existence of either. You were the one who posted about omniscience and free will being contradictory. I was trying to join you in the conversation because I thought it was interesting. Not sure where it went wrong.

Offline monkeymind

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #156 on: December 30, 2011, 01:30:59 PM »
I see no evidence for  god or omniscience.
I understand. I’m not arguing for the existence of either. You were the one who posted about omniscience and free will being contradictory. I was trying to join you in the conversation because I thought it was interesting. Not sure where it went wrong.

Where it went wrong was when you misunderstood "How they hangin'?" That is a customary monkey greeting in reference to bananas. I don't know WHAT you were thinking of.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #157 on: December 30, 2011, 01:37:58 PM »
Where it went wrong was when you misunderstood "How they hangin'?" That is a customary monkey greeting in reference to bananas. I don't know WHAT you were thinking of.
LOL!

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #158 on: December 30, 2011, 02:27:53 PM »
Hi 12 Monkeys (and everyone else),

You’ve all been quite prolific today. I think I’ve caught up and understand the main points.

Killing by command of God is hardly free-will.
you missed the point....Obey the commands not of your free-will,God rewards you....where do you think the guy is who dis-obeyed God right now, heaven?
Sorry. I went according to what you said above. It seems that you’re now saying that because there are negative consequences for one of the choices that means there is no free will. That’s not what free will is. When we make choices there are always consequences. The fact that we can make those choices based on reason and will and we are not limited to the biology and history is what free will is about.

You may not like the fact that there are negative consequences for some actions. My kids don’t either.
Is God commanding you to kill and punishing you for failing to carry out those commands a suspension of your free-will or not?
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Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #159 on: December 30, 2011, 02:44:58 PM »
Hi 12 Monkeys,

Is God commanding you to kill and punishing you for failing to carry out those commands a suspension of your free-will or not?
Free will, if it exists, is a characteristic of our being human. It is the fact that we can make decisions based on intellect and will. It’s not a statement of a particular act, such as whether a decision was freely made or not. I don’t think you can suspend free will. If you hold a gun to my head and say, give me your money or your life, you are not taking away my free will. Maybe you are giving me a very difficult decision to make, but I can make that decision based on my intellect and will.

At the same time, I don’t think that we use our free will all the time. That is, I think that a “suspension” of free will would happen when we make decisions not based on intellect and will. Would habits count then? By the time they get to be habits there’s not much decision making going on. Before that? Maybe.

Then you have instinctive reactions, such as I’m hungry and I eat. I may be making a decision to eat based on intellect and will, but maybe not. I think in that case, making a decision to not eat would be more likely to be based on intellect and will.

What do you think?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #160 on: December 31, 2011, 04:15:15 PM »
I think that you are REACHING

 First a commandment of "Thou shalt not kill" followed by a command by God to kill because I don't like this group of people who stand in the way of my believers can't be the same as me demanding your money.

 First off I am dis-obeying a directive from God NOT to kill anybody(remember that commandment) And then I am pissing off God by not killing everything he commanded me to kill.

 So which is the right choice not to kill anything God tells me to kill or to kill everything God commands me to kill? Your penalty for not handing your cash over,a direct elevator ride to heaven,the guy who fails to kill everything at God's command,an elevator ride to hell?

 God himself is contradicting his commandments by ordering the killing of ANYBODY,because they either dont believe in him or they stand in the way of his people steamrolling over all who oppose THEM. God has no interest in land does he,or is God just the invention of greedy people intent in using his name to justify what they do?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #161 on: December 31, 2011, 05:01:06 PM »
Hi 12 Monkeys,

(Almost) Happy New Year! Going out tonight? We’re going over to a friend’s house. We get together with a few families and eat lots of food, drink lots of alcohol and play lots of games. It’s a great time. I hope you have a great time, too. Unfortunately, I gave blood today. The giving wasn’t the unfortunate part. Doing it today is! I can’t drink as much. Maybe I’ll be the designated driver for once. We’ll see. :)

I think that you are REACHING
I think we’re talking about two different things.

So which is the right choice not to kill anything God tells me to kill or to kill everything God commands me to kill?
That question (which choice is right) is a totally different question than whether we have free will. Is that the one you’ve wanted to ask all along?

In case it is, let’s look at your question. First, let me ask you, how sure am I that it is God doing the commanding?

Offline riley2112

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #162 on: December 31, 2011, 05:45:14 PM »
God has no interest in land does he,or is God just the invention of greedy people intent in using his name to justify what they do?
I don't think God is  the invention of greedy people but I do see them using his name to justify what they do over and over again.
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #163 on: December 31, 2011, 05:58:52 PM »
So which is the right choice not to kill anything God tells me to kill or to kill everything God commands me to kill?
That question (which choice is right) is a totally different question than whether we have free will. Is that the one you’ve wanted to ask all along?



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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #164 on: December 31, 2011, 06:56:05 PM »
Hi 12 Monkeys,

(Almost) Happy New Year! Going out tonight? We’re going over to a friend’s house. We get together with a few families and eat lots of food, drink lots of alcohol and play lots of games. It’s a great time. I hope you have a great time, too. Unfortunately, I gave blood today. The giving wasn’t the unfortunate part. Doing it today is! I can’t drink as much. Maybe I’ll be the designated driver for once. We’ll see. :)

I think that you are REACHING
I think we’re talking about two different things.

So which is the right choice not to kill anything God tells me to kill or to kill everything God commands me to kill?
That question (which choice is right) is a totally different question than whether we have free will. Is that the one you’ve wanted to ask all along?

In case it is, let’s look at your question. First, let me ask you, how sure am I that it is God doing the commanding?
Either the bible is true,in that case God has given a command to kill or it is made up(like I said) by men who want to excuse their acts of war and domination. The choice to follow God's command but not his commandment (thou shalt not kill) gets you the prize of heaven. The other choice not to kill anything(thou shalt not kill) angers God and gets you a prime table in hell.Both choices,yes but not of free-will,just reward or punishment.

 So I see you are saying the Bible may be written by men to excuse their actions? Did God go against his own commandment ordering his followers to kill? You see by following your free-will(choice) and going against his command but not his commandment,you fall out of favour with God and are hell bound. By ignoring his commandment(thou shalt not kill)and following his command,killing entire villages,men,women,children and livestock you are in the good grace of God and are heaven bound.  How exactly is this a choice of free-will? I either do what God commands and get rewarded or I ignore him and am sent to hell.

 The point is that if I wish to follow God there is no free-will just choice of doing what he says and being rewarded or ignoring him and suffering the consequence.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 06:59:08 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline dloubet

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #165 on: December 31, 2011, 09:53:08 PM »
Quote
To be more specific to your question, would I have turned Jesus over to the authorities? I would hope not.

And so no crucifixion, no burial, and no resurrection. Excellent. You would condemn 2000 years of Christians to hell. Congratulations.

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It seems that you want to set Judas up to be an unwitting patsy, but to do so you have to ignore all the information that Judas almost certainly did have.

Actually, I would hope that character had all the information because it would make him an awesome character. A guy who trades his place in heaven to save countless souls. Since I don't consider the "betrayal" a betrayal, he simply helped his friend Jesus do what he had to do and played the part of the betrayer. Unfortunately, the fact that he saved the souls of countless people did not remove the guilt he felt for the death of his friend, so in grief he committed suicide.

What an awesome narrative. But the thing is, is that Judas, not Jesus, is the hero selflessly making a sacrifice. If he'd just waited three days before killing himself, he would have seen that the Jesus character was not only fine and dandy, but Master of the Universe. He probably wouldn't have killed himself, but rather been pretty pissed at Jesus for the mental torment he was put through. Oh well.

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Even if it was a required part of God’s plan it was still a betrayal.


Awesome! So the god's perfect plan requires betrayal. Betrayal is a necessary aspect of perfection. Wonderful morality you've got there.

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It seems to me that if Judas had chosen not to betray Jesus, that the Sanhedrin would have still found a way to bring him to trial.

Then the guy who succeeded in getting that trial would be the person we would be talking about. It makes no difference. The guy that precipitates the crucifixion and thus the resurrection is the hero. Without him, there would be no salvation.

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Free will is (a necessary) part of what makes us responsible for our moral choices. However, you are confusing will with knowledge. The 3 conditions for mortal sin are
The action being taken must be of grave matter.
The person committing the action must have full knowledge about it, e.g. that it is grave, that it is wrong, that it is happening, etc. (good vs. bad information)
The person must give deliberate consent. (free will)
If a person picks door number 2 and that somehow causes someone to be killed, then they are not guilty of mortal sin. If they pick door number 2 knowing that it would cause someone to be killed, then they are guilty of a mortal sin.

Since we're not omniscient, we can never have full knowledge. We can only have partial knowledge, which is as good as none to the omniscience of the god character. So since your second requirement cannot be met, no free will decision has ever been made, and thus no mortal sin has ever been committed.

That's actually a fine state of affairs from my perspective, but probably not from yours.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2011, 09:58:58 PM by dloubet »
Denis Loubet

Offline SimpleCaveman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #166 on: January 01, 2012, 03:51:31 PM »
Hi 12 Monkeys,

First, let me ask you, how sure am I that it is God doing the commanding?
Either the bible is true
Okay, so we’re talking about God’s commandments in the Bible. I’ve misunderstood you before, so I just want to make sure.

Let’s go to this part of what you say first. (I apologize if it appears that I’m dodging your question. We will certainly come back to the rest if that’s what you’re really asking about.) You say. . .

The point is that if I wish to follow God there is no free-will just choice of doing what he says and being rewarded or ignoring him and suffering the consequence.
This statement is a contradiction. Free will is exactly the fact that we have the choice. What do you imagine free will to be? Choosing without any consequences?

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #167 on: January 01, 2012, 03:53:55 PM »
The point is that if I wish to follow God there is no free-will just choice of doing what he says and being rewarded or ignoring him and suffering the consequence.
This statement is a contradiction. Free will is exactly the fact that we have the choice. What do you imagine free will to be? Choosing without any consequences?

I'm not 12 Monkeys, but I think I can explain.

Basically, according to christians, you're not actually choosing anything. At best you could say you're being blackmailed (under threat of eternal torture) to do what YHWH tells you to.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #168 on: January 01, 2012, 06:58:10 PM »
If no deviation from a path is possible, there is no "will" at all, free or otherwise, just the path. I would "will" or "desire" whatever was predestined, as my desire would be predestined as well.

If I can deviate from a predetermined path, I have a choice, I can therefore have a "will" to follow one path or the other, but not all choices of path are free.

I can choose to take goods from a store without paying, but the choice is not free, I would have to pay, jail or reparations.

With god, the blackmail choice is not free will, it is coercion. It is "pay or else" will. It is a choice with a direct punishment for one of the options that is not evident in the choice by itself.

If I steal a shirt from the store, I have chosen a path that has an implied punishment and this is not a "freewill" choice. If I chose to buy a red shirt over a blue shirt, that is a free will choice, even if later all red shirted people are punished.
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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #169 on: January 01, 2012, 08:30:24 PM »
Hi dloubet,

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To be more specific to your question, would I have turned Jesus over to the authorities? I would hope not.
And so no crucifixion, no burial, and no resurrection. Excellent. You would condemn 2000 years of Christians to hell. Congratulations.
I ask this question sincerely. Do you read the entire post and take all of what I say into account when you respond? I ask that because your statements above are already answered by statements in my post. Statements to which you’ve even responded below. In fact a number of your comments are of that same approach. I really don’t see the reason for your statements above other than to take potshots. They certainly don’t further the conversation. If that’s what you’re doing, then okay. I just have to remember that about you. It would be helpful to put a <potshot> tag or something similar, though. I’m just saying.

Actually, I would hope that character had all the information because it would make him an awesome character. A guy who trades his place in heaven to save countless souls. Since I don't consider the "betrayal" a betrayal, he simply helped his friend Jesus do what he had to do and played the part of the betrayer.
So you don’t disagree with my points about why it’s a betrayal. Instead you make betrayal a good thing. If that’s how you want to rationalize betrayal to keep it consistent with your beliefs, then okay. I’m glad I’m not your friend.

If he'd just waited three days before killing himself, he would have seen that the Jesus character was not only fine and dandy, but Master of the Universe.
Yes. I agree. It would have been better had Judas not despaired and had trusted in the mercy of God.

Then the guy who succeeded in getting that trial would be the person we would be talking about. It makes no difference. The guy that precipitates the crucifixion and thus the resurrection is the hero. Without him, there would be no salvation.
The one who precipitated the crucifixion and the resurrection is God. He is the ultimate hero.  Who are the other players?

Sanhedrin – Out to protect their power and station.
Judas – Greed? Power? As far as he knew it was betrayal, pure and simple.
Pontius Pilate – Fear of Caesar and the Jews.
Roman soldiers – Following orders except those who mocked and ridiculed him.
The mob – probably had no idea of the schemes behind everything. Hailing Jesus as King the week before they too now turned on him.

None of those people are heroes. Instead they are weak, selfish, and small-minded.

Since we're not omniscient, we can never have full knowledge. We can only have partial knowledge, which is as good as none to the omniscience of the god character.
I would be very surprised if you actually think that full knowledge means omniscience. Is that really what you think?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #170 on: January 01, 2012, 08:33:50 PM »
Hi 12 Monkeys,

First, let me ask you, how sure am I that it is God doing the commanding?
Either the bible is true
Okay, so we’re talking about God’s commandments in the Bible. I’ve misunderstood you before, so I just want to make sure.

Let’s go to this part of what you say first. (I apologize if it appears that I’m dodging your question. We will certainly come back to the rest if that’s what you’re really asking about.) You say. . .

The point is that if I wish to follow God there is no free-will just choice of doing what he says and being rewarded or ignoring him and suffering the consequence.
This statement is a contradiction. Free will is exactly the fact that we have the choice. What do you imagine free will to be? Choosing without any consequences?
So the Guy who Chooses NOT to listen to God by not killing everything in the villiage USES his brain to say no to God....gets hell is that what you are saying? If he CHOOSES to listen to God and kill EVERYTHING in the villiage his reward- heaven. So by following his brain he gets punished by God,by submitting to God's command and going against his better judgement HELL.

 God himself is commanding HIS follower to DISOBEY a COMMANDMENT,thou shalt not kill. What "choice"would you make? follow Gods command or his commandment?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #171 on: January 01, 2012, 08:35:49 PM »
 You have managed NOT to answer the direct question to ANYBODY posting here.
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #172 on: January 01, 2012, 08:47:00 PM »
The one who precipitated the crucifixion and the resurrection is God. He is the ultimate hero.  Who are the other players?

Sanhedrin – Out to protect their power and station.
Judas – Greed? Power? As far as he knew it was betrayal, pure and simple.
Pontius Pilate – Fear of Caesar and the Jews.
Roman soldiers – Following orders except those who mocked and ridiculed him.
The mob – probably had no idea of the schemes behind everything. Hailing Jesus as King the week before they too now turned on him.

None of those people are heroes. Instead they are weak, selfish, and small-minded.

Not heroes? Without them God could not have seen his plan through. He always relies on those lesser than him to do the dirty work for him. I really don't understand why Christians demonize those people who brought about the alleged crucifixion of Jesus. If it weren't for them, you wouldn't have JC as a human sacrifice to repent for Original Sin. In a way, since it was God's will that Jesus come to earth to die in order to save people from God being an asshole, such entities as you describe above are ACTUALLY DOING GODS WILL. Perhaps they should all be made saints. Weak, selfish and small minded? Well, your God created them that way, didn't he? BTW, Weak, selfish and small minded are EXACTLY the kind of followers God wants.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

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Re: Question for Christians about Judas
« Reply #173 on: January 01, 2012, 09:03:21 PM »

 Well, your God created them that way, didn't he? BTW, Weak, selfish and small minded are EXACTLY the kind of followers God wants.
Sorry I hope you don't mind me asking , but do you have any evidence of that statement?
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