Author Topic: Freewill. Not an excuse.  (Read 14272 times)

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Offline rockv12

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #145 on: March 30, 2012, 12:32:38 PM »

Children can understand things, that's not what I said.  But to make a conscious decision about salvation and becoming a Christian, takes an abstract thought and reasoning.  We CAN'T be the judge of who is saved and who isn't, that's God's job.  Maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly.  But it seems, based on what we perceive, that a little kid doesn't fully grasp the concept to make an individual choice.  That's why it's silly to baptize a 2 year old, because they haven't developed enough to understand what they are doing.  God judges the heart and knows when a person fully understands what they are doing.  Do we know the age of reason?  No.  God does.  But a child dying in a fire at 3 or 4 years old and going to hell does NOT fit the God character that we know, now does it?

So those millions of christians that baptize their babies--they're just wrong?  Likewise, those who claim that "Jesus is the ONLY way into heaven", they're wrong too?  You don't have to follow Jesus to get into heaven, you can also die young (so why protest abortion, then?).

If christians can't get their theology straight among themselves, how do you expect the rest of us to?


You really expect everyone to believe the exact same thing?

Yes, baptizing babies is a fun little ceremony, but NOT necessary or Scriptural.  The Catholic church made up this along with many other non-Biblical practices. 

Why protest abortion?  Hey, the kid gets a free pass to heaven, as do mentally retarded people.  That's great!  But, no, we are not going to kill kids to send them to heaven....good grief.

Offline rockv12

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #146 on: March 30, 2012, 12:34:24 PM »

No, in fact I expect everyone to be 100% incorrect in their doctrine when they use a mythological book cobbled together by bronze age goat herders that contradicts itself multiple places as their guide to reality


Contradictions?  Where?  If you've studied the Bible more than me, please enlighten me to these contradictions.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #147 on: March 30, 2012, 12:48:50 PM »
You really expect everyone to believe the exact same thing?

As I said, if If christians can't get their theology straight, how do you expect the rest of us to?

If the religion is so disjointed, then you need to straighten it among yourself before trying to convert the rest of us.


Quote
Why protest abortion?  Hey, the kid gets a free pass to heaven, as do mentally retarded people.  That's great!  But, no, we are not going to kill kids to send them to heaven....good grief.

I certainly don't advocate killing kids for the heck of it, but if aborted fetus gets a free ride to heaven, then protesting abortions is pretty stupid.  Just saying...

Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #148 on: March 30, 2012, 12:51:36 PM »
poor OneTrueChristan. Doesn't even know his bible. 

Let's see. God claims that humans will never ever ever be able to find the city of Tyre or even any remains of it.  Tyre is a city of about a quarter million people and we know quite a bit about its history since we have the ruins under and around it. Hailstones aren't kept in magical warehouses. No global flood happened. The bible contradicts *reality*. 

In contradicting itself, the bible can't figure out what it wants JC to have done before the cruxifiction.  John has him all "bring it on"; Luke has JC being so afraid and reluctant he sweats blood. 

The "thieves" on the crosses make fun of JC or one of them wants to go with him. 

Nothing about freewill in the bible so contradicting your claims, rockv.  It never can quite make up who gets into heaven at all.

The apostles are either hiding or going to the temple to celebrate after the cruxifiction.

Either JC ran around doing all sorts of things for months after the cruxifiction or went to right to heaven.

and on and on.....  The bible can't get things straight.  The sects of Christianity can't agree on things.  And you want us to think that there is some god presiding over some truth that you all claim to have, all sure that you and only you know what your god "really meant".  ROFL.  All of this confusion does two things to your religion: if god exists, it love confusion and the deaths and harm it causes, definitely not a nice being, making your religion worhsiping a nutcase; and makes it more likely that it's just humanity's foibels that have made up such BS and no god at all is needed.
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #149 on: March 30, 2012, 12:57:46 PM »

No, in fact I expect everyone to be 100% incorrect in their doctrine when they use a mythological book cobbled together by bronze age goat herders that contradicts itself multiple places as their guide to reality


Contradictions?  Where?  If you've studied the Bible more than me, please enlighten me to these contradictions.

My particular favorites are Judas dying two different ways, The order of Creation varing, and is it 2 animal or 7 animals on Noah's Ark

But to give a few concrete quotes:

God good to all, or just a few?
PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

[Editor's note: Some readers have raised an objection to this alleged contradiction. They point out that PSA 145:20 states that The Lord keeps all who love Him, but that He will destroy the wicked. In other words, some see no contradiction between "The Lord is good to all" and JER 13:14. Others contend, however, that even if the Lord destroys the wicked he could do so with compassion, pity, and mercy. Further, there are biblical examples that indicate that the Lord is not necessarily "good" or merciful--even to those who are not wicked. One such example is Job. As one reader points out, "If Psalm 145:9 was not a contradiction of Psalm 145:20 or Jeremiah 13:14, it would read something like this: "The LORD is good to all, except the wicked: and his tender mercies are over all his works, except when He is punishing the wicked." In any case, the idea that the Lord is good and merciful is contradicted by countless examples in the Bible where God orders the destruction of infants, personally kills David's infant child, etc.]


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War or Peace?
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.

ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.


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Who is the father of Joseph?
MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli.


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Who was at the Empty Tomb? Is it:
MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.

MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.


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Is Jesus equal to or lesser than?
JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.

JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.


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Which first--beasts or man?
GEN 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
GEN 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

GEN 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.


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How many stalls and horsemen?
1KI 4:26 And Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen.

2CH 9:25 And Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots, and twelve thousand horsemen; whom he bestowed in the chariot cities, and with the king at Jerusalem.


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Is it folly to be wise or not?
PRO 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

ECC 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1CO 1:19: "For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent."


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Human vs. ghostly impregnation
ACT 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

MAT 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.


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The sins of the father
ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
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Fowl from waters or ground?
GEN 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
GEN 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

GEN 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

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Earth supported?
JOB 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing.

JOB 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

_________________________________________________________________
Here is the order in the first (Genesis 1), the Priestly tradition:

Day 1: Sky, Earth, light
Day 2: Water, both in ocean basins and above the sky(!)
Day 3: Plants
Day 4: Sun, Moon, stars (as calendrical and navigational aids)
Day 5: Sea monsters (whales), fish, birds, land animals, creepy-crawlies (reptiles, insects, etc.)
Day 6: Humans (apparently both sexes at the same time)
Day 7: Nothing (the Gods took the first day off anyone ever did)

Note that there are "days," "evenings," and "mornings" before the Sun was created. Here, the Deity is referred to as "Elohim," which is a plural, thus the literal translation, "the Gods." In this tale, the Gods seem satisfied with what they have done, saying after each step that "it was good."

The second one (Genesis 2), the Yahwist tradition, goes:

Earth and heavens (misty)
Adam, the first man (on a desolate Earth)
Plants
Animals
Eve, the first woman (from Adam's rib)

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Moses' personality
NUM 12:3: "Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the fact of the earth."

NUM 31:14, 17, 18: "And Moses was wroth...And Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman, ... But all the women children ... keep alive for yourselves."

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Righteous live?
PSA 92:12: "The righteous shall flourish like the palm tree."

ISA 57:1: "The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth it to heart."


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ACT 1:18: "Now this man (Judas) purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

MAT 27:5-7: "And he (Judas) cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests...bought with them the potter's field."


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Jesus' first sermon plain or mount?
MAT 5:1,2: "And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him: And he opened his mouth, and taught them, saying...."

LUK 6:17,20: "And he came down with them, and stood in the plain, and the company of his disciples, and a great multitude of people...came to hear him.. And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples and said..."


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Jesus' last words
MAT 27:46,50: "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost."

LUK 23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father, unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

JOH 19:30: "When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost."


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Years of famine
II SAMUEL 24:13: So God came to David, and told him, and said unto him, shall SEVEN YEARS OF FAMINE come unto thee in thy land? or will thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue. thee?

I CHRONICLES 21:11: SO God came to David, and said unto him, Thus saith the LORD, Choose thee. Either THREE YEARS OF FAMINE or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee;


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Moved David to anger?
II SAMUEL 24: And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah.

I CHRONICLES 21: And SATAN stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.


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The GENEALOGY OF JESUS?
In two places in the New Testament the genealogy of Jesus son of Mary is mentioned. MAT 1:6-16 and LUK 3:23-31. Each gives the ancestors of Joseph the CLAIMED husband of Mary and Step father of Jesus. The first one starts from Abraham(verse 2) all the way down to Jesus. The second one from Jesus all the way back to Adam. The only common name to these two lists between David and Jesus is JOSEPH, How can this be true? and also How can Jesus have a genealogy when all Muslims and most Christians believe that Jesus had/has no father.


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God be seen?
EXO 24:9,10; AMO 9:1; GEN 26:2; and JOH 14:9
God CAN be seen:
"And I will take away my hand, and thou shalt see my backparts." (EXO 33:23)
"And the Lord spake to Moses face to face, as a man speaketh to his friend." (EXO 33:11)
"For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved." (GEN 32:30)

God CANNOT be seen:
"No man hath seen God at any time." (JOH 1:18)
"And he said, Thou canst not see my face; for there shall no man see me and live." (EXO 33:20)
"Whom no man hath seen nor can see." (1TIM 6:16)


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CRUEL, UNMERCIFUL, DESTRUCTIVE, and FEROCIOUS or KIND, MERCIFUL, and GOOD:
"I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy." (JER 13:14) "Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling."

"The Lord is very pitiful and of tender mercy." (JAS 5:11)
"For his mercy endureth forever." (1CH 16:34)
"The Lord is good to all, and his tender mercies are over all his works." (PSA 145:9)
"God is love." (1JO 4:16)


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Tempts?
"And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham." (GEN 22:1)

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man." (JAS 1:13)


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Judas died how?
"And he cast down the pieces of silver into the temple and departed, and went out and hanged himself." (MAT 27:5)

"And falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all of his bowels gushed out." (ACT 1:18)


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Ascend to heaven
"And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven." (2KI 2:11)

"No man hath ascended up to heaven but he that came down from heaven, ... the Son of Man." (JOH 3:13)


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What was Jesus' prediction regarding Peter's denial?
Before the cock crow - MAT 26:34

Before the cock crow twice - MAR 14:30


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How many times did the cock crow?
MAR 14:72 And the second time the cock crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

MAT 26:74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
MAT 26:75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

LUK 22:60 And Peter said, Man, I know not what thou sayest. And immediately, while he yet spake, the cock crew.
LUK 22:61 And the Lord turned, and looked upon Peter. And Peter remembered the word of the Lord, how he had said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice.

JOH 13:38 Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, still thou hast denied me thrice.

JOH 18:27 Peter then denied again: and immediately the cock crew.


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How many beatitudes in the Sermon on the Mount
MAT 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
MAT 5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
MAT 5:6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
MAT 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
MAT 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
MAT 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
MAT 5:10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
MAT 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.

LUK 6:20 And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
LUK 6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
LUK 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
LUK 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.


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Does every man sin?
1KI 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near;

2CH 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near;

PRO 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

ECC 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

JO1 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
JO1 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
JO1 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

JO1 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.


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Who bought potter's field
ACT 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
ACT 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

MAT 27:6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.
MAT 27:7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.
MAT 27:8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.


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Who bears guilt?
GAL 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

GAL 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden.


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Do you answer a fool?
PRO 26:4 Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

PRO 26:5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.


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How many children did Michal, the daughter of Saul, have?
2SA 6:23 Therefore Michal the daughter of Saul had no child unto the day of her death.

2SA 21:8 But the king took the two sons of Rizpah the daughter of Aiah, whom she bare unto Saul, Armoni and Mephibosheth; and the five sons of Michal the daughter of Saul, whom she brought up for Adriel the son of Barzillai the Meholathite:


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How old was Jehoiachin when he began to reign?
2KI 24:8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem.

2CH 36:9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD.


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Marriage?
Proverbs 18:22
1 Corinthians 7 (whole book. See 1,2,27,39,40)

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Did those with Saul/Paul at his conversion hear a voice?
ACT 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.

ACT 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.


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Where was Jesus three days after his baptism?
MAR 1:12 And immediately the spirit driveth him into the wilderness.

JOH 1:35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his disciples;

(various traipsings)


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How many apostles were in office between the resurrection and ascension?
1 Corinthians 15:5 (12)
MAT 27:3-5 (minus one from 12)
ACT 1:9-26 (Mathias not elected until after resurrection)

MAT 28:16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.


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Judging
1 Cor 2:15 "The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:" (NIV)

1 Cor 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God."


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Good deeds
Matt 5:16 "In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven." (NIV)

Matt 6:3-4 "But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." (NIV)


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For or against?
MAT 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
(default is against)

MAR 9:40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
(default is for)

LUK 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
(default is for)


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Whom did they see at the tomb?
MAT 28:2 And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
MAT 28:3 His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
MAT 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
MAT 28:5 And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.

MAR 16:5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

LUK 24:4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

JOH 20:12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.


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God change?
MAL 3:6
JAS 1:17
1SA 15:29
JON 3:10
GEN 6:6


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Destruction of cities (what said was jeremiah was zechariah)
MAT 27:9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

ZEC 11:11-13 (Note: There is nothing in Jeremiah remotely like this.)


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Who's sepulchers
ACT 7:16
GEN 23:17,18


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Strong drink?
PRO 31:6,7
JOH 2:11-11


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When second coming?
MAT 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

MAR 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

LUK 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

(See also 1TH 4:15-18)


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Solomon's overseers
1KI 9:23 550
2CH 8:10 250


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The mother of Abijah:
2CH 11:20 Maachah the daughter of Absalom

2CH 13:2 Michaiah the daughter of Uriel


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When did Baasha die?
1KI 16:6-8 26th year of the reign of Asa

2CH 16:1 36th year of the reign of Asa


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How old was Ahaziah when he began to reign?
2KI 8:26 22

2CH 22:2 42


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The differences in the census figures of Ezra and Nehemiah.

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What was the color of the robe placed on Jesus during his trial?
MAT 27:28 scarlet

JOH 19:2 purple


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What did they give him to drink?
MAT 27:34 vinegar

MAR 15:23 wine with myrrh


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How long was Jesus in the tomb?
Depends where you look; MAT 12:40 gives Jesus prophesying that he will spend "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth," and MAR 10:34 has "after three days (meta treis emeras) he will rise again." As far as I can see from a quick look, the prophecies have "after three days," but the post-Resurrection narratives have "on the third day."

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #150 on: March 30, 2012, 01:01:56 PM »
poor OneTrueChristan. Doesn't even know his bible. 

Furthermore, I've noted an aversion to the really my hard question of: Got proof yours is real and theirs is not?
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 01:11:38 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline velkyn

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #151 on: March 30, 2012, 01:09:01 PM »
Furthermore, I've noted an aversion to the really my hard question of: Got proof your is real and theirs is not?
indeed.  that's been asked of him more than once.
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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #152 on: March 30, 2012, 01:10:40 PM »
Furthermore, I've noted an aversion to the really my hard question of: Got proof your is real and theirs is not?
indeed.  that's been asked of him more than once.

By his logic[1], that means that his ideas are wrong.
 1. For lack of a better term.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #153 on: March 30, 2012, 01:14:51 PM »
Furthermore, I've noted an aversion to the really my hard question of: Got proof your is real and theirs is not?
indeed.  that's been asked of him more than once.
Not to mention we've had now THREE different Christians in this thread bring up the moved goalpost of "age of accountability" and NOT ONE of them have addressed my "One second before versus one second after this magic age determines their eternal fate" adjustment to the new goalposts. It is like they didn't even bother reading the thread.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2012, 02:43:20 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #154 on: March 30, 2012, 03:44:58 PM »
Does god have a plan? If he does, and is omniscient, knowing every decision every person will make -- such as having an abortion -- then the abortion must be according to god's plan. Else there is always the risk (for god) of the plan coming apart at the seams when some person vital to his plan is mistakenly aborted.

Every murderer must be acting according to god's plan as well, else a whole lot more people potentially invaluable to god's plan are wiped out. Heck, genocide must definitely be part of it, since there's no way such wholesale slaughter wouldn't affect at least a few people with the potential of making significant improvements to the human condition.

There's simply no way to reconcile a universal "plan" with the notion that we have any sort of free will. If god is sitting there constantly readjusting things when a future genius bites the dust, then he is not omniscient. If he knows in advance how everything will turn out, then he has predetermined who will be instrumental and meddled with a lot of free will (in both that individual's life and that of those who interact with him) in making sure the plan comes to fruition.

If he is simply watching knowing how everything will turn out, then there can be no plan.

Offline kin hell

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #155 on: March 30, 2012, 09:19:55 PM »

No, in fact I expect everyone to be 100% incorrect in their doctrine when they use a mythological book cobbled together by bronze age goat herders that contradicts itself multiple places as their guide to reality


Contradictions?  Where?  If you've studied the Bible more than me, please enlighten me to these contradictions.


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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #156 on: March 31, 2012, 05:13:24 PM »
You really expect everyone to believe the exact same thing?

You really expect them not to?

Can you name any other field of study or inquiry where there's such overwhelming disagreement between so many large groups of people?  Do doctors debate over how many bones there are in the human body?  How often do physicists argue over Newtonian mechanics?  How many aerospace engineers argue that the curve of the wing should be on the bottom, rather than the top, because it will please a supernatural being?

Why is it that people who study the natural world agree on virtually everything they see?  Why is it that, in the relatively few areas where they disagree, they attempt to resolve the disagreement with further investigation and study, instead of sitting around quoting old books at each other?

Why is it only the realm of religion where you can see differences as gargantuan as those between the Roman Catholic Church, the Jehovah's Witnesses, and the Christian Scientists -- differences that never get resolved, by the way -- all coming from one book?  There should be no disagreement at all, especially if that book is divinely inspired by an omnimax being.
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Offline Energized

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #157 on: March 31, 2012, 07:37:30 PM »
Quote from: rockv12
  But a child dying in a fire at 3 or 4 years old and going to hell does NOT fit the God character that we know, now does it?

No, actually it doesn't. He'd rather have the ancestor of Christ sing praises about dashing infans on rocks.

Psalm 137 vs 9.

Face it, dude - it is impossible to know the mind of god when he's so obviously INCONSISTENT. So why do you bother to try?

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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #158 on: April 01, 2012, 03:38:53 AM »
when i went to an episcopal church in san clemente it was explained to me that children and anyone who isn't mentally sound or has never even heard of jesus would be forgiven and allowed into heaven. So basically lost tribes, the mhmr and children will all be granted passage into heaven.
So by this logic the worst thing a Christian could possibly do would be to spread the gospel to traditionally non-Christian parts of the world, thereby robbing those folks who are completely ignorant of Christ of their automatic ticket to heaven. Think about it, Christians. The moment you educate a previously uninformed person about Jesus, you instantly force him (per the above commonly held belief) to choose Christianity or burn in hell. Not a very Christian thing to do, is it?
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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #159 on: April 01, 2012, 07:11:30 AM »
when i went to an episcopal church in san clemente it was explained to me that children and anyone who isn't mentally sound or has never even heard of jesus would be forgiven and allowed into heaven. So basically lost tribes, the mhmr and children will all be granted passage into heaven.
So by this logic the worst thing a Christian could possibly do would be to spread the gospel to traditionally non-Christian parts of the world, thereby robbing those folks who are completely ignorant of Christ of their automatic ticket to heaven. Think about it, Christians. The moment you educate a previously uninformed person about Jesus, you instantly force him (per the above commonly held belief) to choose Christianity or burn in hell. Not a very Christian thing to do, is it?

Extending it even further, it also means that the best thing God could have done would be to have never allowed the Bible to be created at all, right?  That way, no one would ever hear the "good news", and thus everyone would be saved.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #160 on: April 01, 2012, 07:39:00 AM »
Extending it even further, it also means that the best thing God could have done would be to have never allowed the Bible to be created at all, right?  That way, no one would ever hear the "good news", and thus everyone would be saved.

Plus, I'd probably still have my foreskin. 

I miss you foreskin! 
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Offline kin hell

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #161 on: April 01, 2012, 08:11:54 AM »
Interesting that god must've exercised freewill when he created the concept (and accoutrements) of evil.......
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Offline Eaten by Bears

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #162 on: April 01, 2012, 08:12:53 AM »
Extending it even further, it also means that the best thing God could have done would be to have never allowed the Bible to be created at all, right?  That way, no one would ever hear the "good news", and thus everyone would be saved.

So we atheists are actually working for the benefit of God by trying to stamp out religion.

Christians should be supporting us. Keep up the good work!

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #163 on: April 03, 2012, 08:38:45 AM »

Quote
You teach them what you believe.  You can't start teaching a child language at the age of 12. Am I seriously having to explain this?

No, you do not have to explain.......you're embarrassing yourself.

What if the idea your teaching them is wrong, or a lie, or as you're fully aware--has no basis in reality ? Why fill a child's mind with the ancient reasoning of ignoramuses and savages just because you feel it's true ? Why expose your mind to him and at the same time try to make him become as credulous, fearful, wishful, and close minded as you ? Is this the type of thing that a wise father does to a small child ? Does a rational father teach a child to be solipsistic and bigoted to believe that they are the most special thing in the universe, when reality tells the father, and eventually the child, different ?

Have you explained to your child that a baby born with a cleft pallate today is a result of two ignoramuses unknowing disobedience in a garden 7000 years ago ? 


Quote
Children can understand things, that's not what I said. But to make a conscious decision about salvation and becoming a Christian, takes an abstract thought and reasoning.

Wrong bucko. It takes faith. Faith alone is the fuel you're running on and so if your lame brain can't figure out the god idea, then a child's mind most certainly cannot and never will. If your child eventually makes the mistake of god belief he'll have done it the exact same way that you did. Blind faith. Your lust after an abstract, incoherent and primitive human idea filled with phantoms and fantasy has no business being transferred to your child. Leave the kid alone.

Quote
We CAN'T be the judge of who is saved and who isn't, that's God's job.  Maybe I should have pointed that out more clearly.

What god ? What is a god ? Listen Einstein, you haven't even proved that a god--whatever that is-- exists and you're giving it a job description ? You've made one thing perfectly clear: your piffle is no different than all others before you.

Quote
But it seems, based on what we perceive, that a little kid doesn't fully grasp the concept to make an individual choice.  That's why it's silly to baptize a 2 year old, because they haven't developed enough to understand what they are doing.

Seems ? A child cannot get the god idea, get used to that ! You can only wish that they could, but it's not going to happen and a parent forcing that pernicious drivel belief of theirs into a child's brain and then confessing that he cannot get it shows just how poisonous religious belief is.

Can you not see the foolishness and contradiction in what you're saying ? You're saying that a child cannot seemingly get the abstract and incoherent god idea that has no basis in reality, but we need to, without its consent, pollute the child's mind with it simply because it's a belief of the parent.

Typical devious ownership mentality. You'll do what you want with the child's mind, after all, it is yours for the manipulating.   

Quote
God judges the heart and knows when a person fully understands what they are doing. Do we know the age of reason?  No.  God does.

There you go again ! What god ? You need to stop opining on something that you have no idea of and whether it's true or not. There is currently no evidence whatsoever of a deity/s existing in our reality and faith does not prove that it is outside of that reality either. Please stop. 

Quote
But a child dying in a fire at 3 or 4 years old and going to hell does NOT fit the God character that we know, now does it?  But a grown man who has willfully rejected God and knowingly decided to go against God, then when he dies, he does NOT get to go to heaven.

You disgust me. Not only do you not have proof of a god, you do not have proof of a hell or heaven either. Your constant idiocy in assuming and declaring the nature and intentions of a god while having not a clue about the truth of such abstract and vile ideas as god and hell, should shame you. Any being going to such a hideous place as the supposed hell, does not fit the idea of a god who is loving, merciful, and full of grace--a god who is deeply concerned about the well being of his creatures and would that none should perish

God commands us to forgive always. What's his problem then ?

Do you think that the children that mocked Elisha and who god himself slew are in heaven right now ? If so, and if they really are, then god rewarded them for their sin and in fact they got an early gift from god and are enjoying an eternity of bliss right now. What's a little pain for a lot of gain !

According to your theory, it would be better to sin as a child, and save yourself from a hard life and get your reward early.

Ridiculous and disgusting shit indeed.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Freewill. Not an excuse.
« Reply #164 on: April 12, 2012, 11:03:20 AM »
Rockv12, I still see you are active on other threads. Once again, do you have proof that your OneTrue brand of Christianity is real, and that other ones are not?

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.