Author Topic: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!  (Read 1770 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« on: December 09, 2011, 10:35:48 AM »
I know it's been said before by more than a few people, but somehow, when I was thinking about it this morning on the way to work, it hit me especially hard.  When it comes to Christianity, I just don't freakin' get it.

I inherited some kind of "sin", whatever the hell that is, because two people ate a piece of fruit after a talking snake informed them of its properties.  This fruit somehow apparently altered their DNA or something so that it would be transmitted to all their ancestors, I guess.  And because of this genetic mutation, I deserve to spend all eternity burning in hell, but someone came down from somewhere outside the universe and "died for my sins", so now I don't have to burn if I just take this guy at his word?  How do people even believe this?  It just doesn't make any sense.

Whenever I try to read any apologetics, so often, I feel like I'm looking at word salad, sentences with no grammatical errors but that also don't transmit any information or ideas in any way, like the classic example from Chomsky: "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."

Sorry.  I guess I just had to vent.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Traveler

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2011, 10:39:08 AM »
Vent away, I'm just as baffled as you are.  :o
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 10:49:50 AM »
I know it's been said before by more than a few people, but somehow, when I was thinking about it this morning on the way to work, it hit me especially hard.  When it comes to Christianity, I just don't freakin' get it.

I inherited some kind of "sin", whatever the hell that is, because two people ate a piece of fruit after a talking snake informed them of its properties.  This fruit somehow apparently altered their DNA or something so that it would be transmitted to all their ancestors, I guess.  And because of this genetic mutation, I deserve to spend all eternity burning in hell, but someone came down from somewhere outside the universe and "died for my sins", so now I don't have to burn if I just take this guy at his word?  How do people even believe this?  It just doesn't make any sense.

Whenever I try to read any apologetics, so often, I feel like I'm looking at word salad, sentences with no grammatical errors but that also don't transmit any information or ideas in any way, like the classic example from Chomsky: "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."

Sorry.  I guess I just had to vent.


Quite possibly the nastiest word salad ever tossed together ;D

Unbelievable, unscrupulous, unscientific, and un-tasty !

Hey ! Don't forget about inheriting the curse of natural disasters that was thrown in there for good measure !  ;)
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

Offline velkyn

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2011, 11:02:03 AM »
I think the only way to understand it is to realize some people have been so infantilized by this nonsesne that they operate on a very different level.  They can only understand fear and greed and that makes them accept utter nonsense like any child would. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2011, 11:03:34 AM »
IMO, homosexual theists are even more confusing. How can you worship something that hates you?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Aaron123

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2011, 11:04:14 AM »
I inherited some kind of "sin", whatever the hell that is, because two people ate a piece of fruit after a talking snake informed them of its properties.  This fruit somehow apparently altered their DNA or something so that it would be transmitted to all their ancestors, I guess.  And because of this genetic mutation, I deserve to spend all eternity burning in hell, but someone came down from somewhere outside the universe and "died for my sins", so now I don't have to burn if I just take this guy at his word?  How do people even believe this?  It just doesn't make any sense.

Whenever I try to read any apologetics, so often, I feel like I'm looking at word salad, sentences with no grammatical errors but that also don't transmit any information or ideas in any way, like the classic example from Chomsky: "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."

This is what happens when you brainwash kids with nonsense.  They're taught to accept and never question that nonsense.   :angel:

Given what we're dealing with here, there's only so much sense you can expect...
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2011, 11:08:59 AM »
IMO, homosexual theists are even more confusing. How can you worship something that hates you?

Ditto with women, especially women in fundamentalist groups. Why would anyone accept such stereotypical hogwash, and submit to the "authority" of their man, no matter what?
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2011, 11:13:52 AM »
IMO, homosexual theists are even more confusing. How can you worship something that hates you?

Some kind of Stockholm Syndrome is the only answer I can come up with.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 11:15:35 AM »
IMO, homosexual theists are even more confusing. How can you worship something that hates you?

Some kind of Stockholm Syndrome is the only answer I can come up with.

Actually, I just remembered something my ex told me. According to him, the Bible never directly condemns homosexuals, just homosexual sex.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline velkyn

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2011, 11:22:04 AM »
Actually, I just remembered something my ex told me. According to him, the Bible never directly condemns homosexuals, just homosexual sex.

an argument which fails since the bible says that the thought is just as bad or worse than the act, per JC. 
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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2011, 11:23:14 AM »
Actually, I just remembered something my ex told me. According to him, the Bible never directly condemns homosexuals, just homosexual sex.

an argument which fails since the bible says that the thought is just as bad or worse than the act, per JC. 

Yeah, I know. Thankfully, he doesn't.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2011, 12:02:24 PM »
I know it's been said before by more than a few people, but somehow, when I was thinking about it this morning on the way to work, it hit me especially hard.  When it comes to Christianity, I just don't freakin' get it.

I inherited some kind of "sin", whatever the hell that is, because two people ate a piece of fruit after a talking snake informed them of its properties.  This fruit somehow apparently altered their DNA or something so that it would be transmitted to all their ancestors, I guess.  And because of this genetic mutation, I deserve to spend all eternity burning in hell, but someone came down from somewhere outside the universe and "died for my sins", so now I don't have to burn if I just take this guy at his word?  How do people even believe this?  It just doesn't make any sense.

Whenever I try to read any apologetics, so often, I feel like I'm looking at word salad, sentences with no grammatical errors but that also don't transmit any information or ideas in any way, like the classic example from Chomsky: "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously."

Sorry.  I guess I just had to vent.

It isn't the basic mythology I don't get. Primitive people had superstitions, some of which survive to this day. People who aren't that bright do not question them. Fine.
I get it. I don't know why, three generations after splitting the atom, the majority of Americans are still that ignorant. I don't get that.


It is Apologetics themselves that I REALLY don't get. People attempting to come up with sophisticated lines of reasoning to 'apologize' for the fact that it is a primitive myth structure with no real evidence or logic. People who are busy "thinking through" a problem that if you took one step back, you should realize does not exist in the first place.

I liken it to the invention of the light bulb. People notice that when you run an electrical current through a wire, you can get it to glow, creating light. The problem was that the wire would quickly, a matter of seconds or minutes, oxidize and fall apart.
People were spending time trying to develop a wire, until someone realized "What about doing it in a non-oxygenated environment such as a vacuum?" God is the oxygen in the problem of evil, bible, etc.


Apologists are like people who coninue to work on the oxidization problem AFTER the lightbulb has been invented
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 01:14:33 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Iamrational

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2011, 12:41:31 PM »
Ditto on the Stockholm Syndrome.

My favorite is women in the Muslim world that say they are worshiped and treated respectfully. Now that is Stockholm to the 10th degree. I have heard Muslim women say that the reason they must cover up is because their men care so much for them that they don't want to share their beauty with the outside world. They want to protect it.

My second favorite is back in 2004 when my TX brother said he was voting again for GW Bush because he said he is a god fearing man. He said the other guy just doesn't ehhh... you know. I said well then vote Libertarian. I gave him a pass on the 2000 election. That was just clever. However, I mentioned the impeachable lies about going to war for an alternate agenda. He still voted for him because it boils down to his morally sound mind as a god fearing man. Chew on that. 

Offline dloubet

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2011, 12:51:17 PM »
What I don't get is the Bizarro-world quality of the thing, where villainous behavior is lauded as virtue, and virtue is subverted at every turn. Genocide is wonderful, a sacrifice means becoming master of the universe. If you retold the story using different names no one would view the heroes as heroes. It would be the most repulsive story ever told.

The real mystery is how anything supposedly virtuous in the bible is seen as actually virtuous.
Denis Loubet

Offline albeto

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2011, 01:44:13 PM »
Some kind of Stockholm Syndrome is the only answer I can come up with.

I think there's more to this than people realize. 

In general, I think the appeal of christian theology is it explains one question in really simple terms (a simple story that isn't too complex to imagine): Why do good people do bad things?  Why would I, for example, who like to think of myself as a good person, do stuff that I know is wrong, feel guilty about it, and am helpless to stop?  Well, it must be "sin."

How you understand the mechanics of that sin to work (literal or metaphoric interpretation of the creation story) doesn't matter so much because if it works for you, it works.  Catholics don't believe in this "sin nature" construct, the idea that nature was altered upon that bite of the forbidden fruit.  Instead Catholics have a concept call "concupiscence" which is generally the idea that we are at war with ourselves internally.  Well, "war" isn't the right word, "at odds" maybe.  See, we want what we want because we are selfish creatures.  But we also want what's good for others because we are social creatures.  Concupiscence is the idea that we do what satisfies our selfish desires (our "passions" as the great Saints called it) against what we know to be good for the other person.  Why?  Because there is a thing in this world called "sin."  In other words, things don't go the way they're supposed to, the way they would go if things were right.  However, and this is where the Stockholm Syndrome comes into play, there is a being who is so freakin' awesome that he would die an excruciatingly painful death (three days shorter than the time my mil spent in labor) just to provide for us a way to control that pesky "sin" and not do stuff we're ashamed of.  How awesome is that?

Whether you believe that way is through the crucifixion (a traditional, conservative view), or that way is through modelling what life can be like if you put your focus all the way on "other" and take it off your own "self" (the liberal view), the point is, Jesus is somehow the catalyst for this process. 

Oh, and it helps if you ignore or are unlearned in the ways of logical analysis and simply focus on the emotional experiences of those feelings of shame and love.  Shame reminds you you are a sinner, love reminds you there's hope after you take your last breath to feel like that forever and ever, amen. 

Offline Hatter23

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 01:46:43 PM »

Oh, and it helps if you ignore or are unlearned in the ways of logical analysis and simply focus on the emotional experiences of those feelings of shame and love.  Shame reminds you you are a sinner, love reminds you there's hope after you take your last breath to feel like that forever and ever, amen.

Reminds me of Thetan levels
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 02:54:30 PM »
Like Hatter23 said, it's fine when primitive peoples tell primitive stories about their origins. But once someone gets an education, even at just the high school level (or less) they should have enough information to realize the story is bunk.

However, as we learn more and more about the human mind and it's limits, I think that things start to make a little more sense. People, when given contrary information, have the ability to perceive that contrary information not as an argument against their stance, but rather a confirmation that they are right. Especially if that information is presented in an aggressive manner. This is true for the anti-vaccination crown, the anti-global warming crowd, the Obama birthers, and believers. 

Clearly being rational is of no value to a some people if it provides unsatisfactory information. And apparently being told what to think is much easier than doing it yourself. And being told what to think by slimy snake-oil salesmen is better than being told that you can think by Carl Sagan.

I'm almost 61, with bad knees and some sort of carpal tunnel problem and I have less endurance that I had even just a few years ago. But I'd rather be me than a healthy 21 year old christian who doesn't have an original thought in his head. And no ability to question anything.


Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Philosopher_at_large

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2011, 04:45:56 PM »
No offense, but your summery of the exile from paradise in the bible was sort of the equivalent of this:



LOL
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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2011, 05:42:06 PM »
The stories within the Bible are attempts by ancient people to come up with explanations for various things, such as why humans die, why humans were the only creatures seen to possess the ability to distinguish right from wrong, why herding is superior to farming, why it's okay to kill those guys in that other tribe but not the guys in your own tribe, etc, etc.  They came up with explanations that satisfied them and then proceeded to build upon them to come up with more complicated explanations.  In essence, they built a meme which was accepted as "the way things are"; someone who rejected that meme, or who had a different meme, was dangerous and different.

As to why it's still being taught today, it's because people almost never question their preconceived notions unless they have a reason to.  It isn't enough that other people present reasons, they have to have the reason come from within.

Offline velkyn

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2011, 09:24:39 AM »
No offense, but your summery of the exile from paradise in the bible was sort of the equivalent of this

No offense?  Hmmm, we have a story (actually two separate ones that conflict in sequence) that says that a magic god made the earth and plants and animals and man from dirt.  We have light before any light source, etc.  We also have this god, not getting it that his creation, man, can't mate with its other creations.  "Hey Adam, how does this gnu look?  This ostritch?  A platypus?  Wait, what the hell was that? Must have been partaking on some of the "herbs" I created earlier."

Then we have a snake, that evidently could wander around on feet and could talk, chatting up Eve and tell her that this god is wrong, and accurately too.   Eve then gets the knowledge of good and evil just like this god per later on in the story, and still decides to give this fruit to Adam who accepts it with no problem.  They suddenly are embarrassed by being naked, which means being nake is somehow wrong.  Why?  Why would god care and why would humans care in a supposedly perfect environmenet for them?   Then we have god unable to find A&E, and deciding that he needs to make clothes for them.  If they were okay naked before, why not now?   Finally, we have this god throwing a tantrum and declaring that A&E must leave the garden, because he either was too stupid to keep out malicious talking snakes or wanted them there in the first place, and thus making a just-so story for why the world is not at the beck and call of mankind. 

tah-dah.  just about as silly as Mr. (excuse me, Ms.) Garrison and the usual creationist nonsense. 
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Offline Philosopher_at_large

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2011, 01:34:19 PM »
No offense, but your summery of the exile from paradise in the bible was sort of the equivalent of this

No offense?  Hmmm, we have a story (actually two separate ones that conflict in sequence) that says that a magic god made the earth and plants and animals and man from dirt.  We have light before any light source, etc.  We also have this god, not getting it that his creation, man, can't mate with its other creations.  "Hey Adam, how does this gnu look?  This ostritch?  A platypus?  Wait, what the hell was that? Must have been partaking on some of the "herbs" I created earlier."

Then we have a snake, that evidently could wander around on feet and could talk, chatting up Eve and tell her that this god is wrong, and accurately too.   Eve then gets the knowledge of good and evil just like this god per later on in the story, and still decides to give this fruit to Adam who accepts it with no problem.  They suddenly are embarrassed by being naked, which means being nake is somehow wrong.  Why?  Why would god care and why would humans care in a supposedly perfect environmenet for them?   Then we have god unable to find A&E, and deciding that he needs to make clothes for them.  If they were okay naked before, why not now?   Finally, we have this god throwing a tantrum and declaring that A&E must leave the garden, because he either was too stupid to keep out malicious talking snakes or wanted them there in the first place, and thus making a just-so story for why the world is not at the beck and call of mankind. 

tah-dah.  just about as silly as Mr. (excuse me, Ms.) Garrison and the usual creationist nonsense.

I think your analysis above, and the one in this post represent the same depth of understanding seasoned with the same barely restrained irritation as Mr (or MRS) Garrison's analysis of Evolution.

....... and I think that's funny. lol.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2011, 01:36:24 PM »
I think your analysis above, and the one in this post represent the same depth of understanding seasoned with the same barely restrained irritation as Mr (or MRS) Garrison's analysis of Evolution.

....... and I think that's funny. lol.

oh and how should one "truly understand" the myths in the bible?  Please do elucidate. 
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Offline Philosopher_at_large

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #22 on: December 14, 2011, 01:51:11 PM »
I think your analysis above, and the one in this post represent the same depth of understanding seasoned with the same barely restrained irritation as Mr (or MRS) Garrison's analysis of Evolution.

....... and I think that's funny. lol.

oh and how should one "truly understand" the myths in the bible?  Please do elucidate.

The same way we can "truly understand" any literature, particularly old to ancient works: by first identifying what narrative approach is being used, what imagery or terminology is being used by the author(s), and what they mean, and not having an automatic disdain for the material. It''s hard to get the point of Lear if you think that Shakespeare was just a big blowhard who used an unnecessarily complicated Elizabethan language in order to sound deep. 
"A moral philosophy that is fact based should be based upon the facts about human nature and nothing else." - Mortimer J. Adler

Offline velkyn

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #23 on: December 14, 2011, 02:06:03 PM »
The same way we can "truly understand" any literature, particularly old to ancient works: by first identifying what narrative approach is being used, what imagery or terminology is being used by the author(s), and what they mean, and not having an automatic disdain for the material. It''s hard to get the point of Lear if you think that Shakespeare was just a big blowhard who used an unnecessarily complicated Elizabethan language in order to sound deep.

So, since I did that, my understanding of the creation story is quite valid.  Thank you.  I still have a disdain for the material.   :)

But, all amusement aside, I'm guessing that you would not agree and that you would wish to assert that I didn't do it "right".  So, please do tell me what the narrative approach is, what imagery and terminlogy is being used and what they mean. 

And, tell me how you know your version is any more correct than mine.   
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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #24 on: December 14, 2011, 02:22:33 PM »
Quote from: Philosopher_At_Large
The same way we can "truly understand" any literature, particularly old to ancient works: by first identifying what narrative approach is being used, what imagery or terminology is being used by the author(s), and what they mean, and not having an automatic disdain for the material.

If I provided you with something I wrote, could you explain to me what I'm actually saying underneath all the metaphor, the root of what I wrote, or would you just be giving me your individual interpretation of it based on what you think I meant rather than what I did mean?

Here, I want you to tell me what I'm actually saying in this poem:

(I was just going to post the link to it at a website I have it at but it's in the "adult" section and you wouldn't be able to view it unless an adult member of that website, so here's the poem in it's entirety)

ember wood

where were you — 
the mirror laid
      broken
like every time
                    before


the impala sat quietly still
burned in its own making
and


a nigger got killed again
    strung up by its neck
and


where were you —
stone etched in battered glass
    there
was no time before


a friend who never was
  society sleeping
in its comfortable bed


images of lost years
youth living in pretend


the smell of shrugs
drenched in the sweat
  of nothing new
and
          "That's life, son!"


where were you —
dreams have been
        ruined
by the hypocritical noise


the loss of fate
  and songs
        played by
ghosts
            a scar
torn across eyes
      blinded by
fate


[I can smell the odor
  of trash burning
        and mouths
breathing]


where are you —
forgotten are the names
    the regret
of knowing
      that life is more
than who we are


it's not the man
      seen from afar
tree broken from
      the thousand glances
of a world
      they pretend
never existed


it's just affirmation
war struggling in thoughts
and


where are you —
another nigger got killed again
    you
just don't seem to care


it was flesh
it—he was a man
blinded by hope
        of
a life
                        he
found out it was
    just a dream
and
              we died in it


where were you 
when he pleaded
        to be the same?





David Garrett Arnold
October 13 2010

--

Now, most people who have read it, the entire poem, some have only read the beginning of it, and got so angry at the blatant racism of it all that they didn't continue to the end, and most of all those (or primarily "all") that have actually read the entirety think it's about one thing, and in some ways it is but in many ways it's not; it's about something else entirely.  But, since you state what you do, I'm pretty sure you can tell me, with a general understanding, what I'm actually saying with this poem.  Where my true focus of what I'm talking about.

Unless one knows the mind of the person who wrote something in particular, interpretation is all there is.  And, there's nothing wrong with that but to state someone else's interpretation is flawed or incorrect is just silliness, and pathetic.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Gill

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2011, 03:25:44 PM »
I don't think most people who are religious take the bible so literally.  Sure, there will be a few groups, but I don't think that's the vast majority. I sure don't. 

Offline Philosopher_at_large

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2011, 03:39:39 PM »
Quote from: Philosopher_At_Large
The same way we can "truly understand" any literature, particularly old to ancient works: by first identifying what narrative approach is being used, what imagery or terminology is being used by the author(s), and what they mean, and not having an automatic disdain for the material.

If I provided you with something I wrote, could you explain to me what I'm actually saying underneath all the metaphor, the root of what I wrote, or would you just be giving me your individual interpretation of it based on what you think I meant rather than what I did mean?

Here, I want you to tell me what I'm actually saying in this poem:

(I was just going to post the link to it at a website I have it at but it's in the "adult" section and you wouldn't be able to view it unless an adult member of that website, so here's the poem in it's entirety)

ember wood

where were you — 
the mirror laid
      broken
like every time
                    before


the impala sat quietly still
burned in its own making
and


a nigger got killed again
    strung up by its neck
and


where were you —
stone etched in battered glass
    there
was no time before


a friend who never was
  society sleeping
in its comfortable bed


images of lost years
youth living in pretend


the smell of shrugs
drenched in the sweat
  of nothing new
and
          "That's life, son!"


where were you —
dreams have been
        ruined
by the hypocritical noise


the loss of fate
  and songs
        played by
ghosts
            a scar
torn across eyes
      blinded by
fate


[I can smell the odor
  of trash burning
        and mouths
breathing]


where are you —
forgotten are the names
    the regret
of knowing
      that life is more
than who we are


it's not the man
      seen from afar
tree broken from
      the thousand glances
of a world
      they pretend
never existed


it's just affirmation
war struggling in thoughts
and


where are you —
another nigger got killed again
    you
just don't seem to care


it was flesh
it—he was a man
blinded by hope
        of
a life
                        he
found out it was
    just a dream
and
              we died in it


where were you 
when he pleaded
        to be the same?





David Garrett Arnold
October 13 2010

--

Now, most people who have read it, the entire poem, some have only read the beginning of it, and got so angry at the blatant racism of it all that they didn't continue to the end, and most of all those (or primarily "all") that have actually read the entirety think it's about one thing, and in some ways it is but in many ways it's not; it's about something else entirely.  But, since you state what you do, I'm pretty sure you can tell me, with a general understanding, what I'm actually saying with this poem.  Where my true focus of what I'm talking about.

Unless one knows the mind of the person who wrote something in particular, interpretation is all there is.  And, there's nothing wrong with that but to state someone else's interpretation is flawed or incorrect is just silliness, and pathetic.

-Nam

I actually can't. I don't understand enough about the context of the poem to make any kind of judgement about it: only YOU could inform me about the context. Not the other readers of it, and certainly not the people who rejected it out of hand. I 'could' dismiss it out of hand because it contains the word nigger, and have a knee jerk reaction to the prose. (as I think has been done above with the Eden story) But if I were to actually try and understand what you were trying to say I'd need to know more about it than the fact that is contains the word nigger and that it's written in a format that's unfamiliar to me. That's my whole point.
"A moral philosophy that is fact based should be based upon the facts about human nature and nothing else." - Mortimer J. Adler

Offline Philosopher_at_large

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2011, 03:44:56 PM »
The same way we can "truly understand" any literature, particularly old to ancient works: by first identifying what narrative approach is being used, what imagery or terminology is being used by the author(s), and what they mean, and not having an automatic disdain for the material. It''s hard to get the point of Lear if you think that Shakespeare was just a big blowhard who used an unnecessarily complicated Elizabethan language in order to sound deep.

So, since I did that, my understanding of the creation story is quite valid.  Thank you.  I still have a disdain for the material.   :)

But, all amusement aside, I'm guessing that you would not agree and that you would wish to assert that I didn't do it "right".  So, please do tell me what the narrative approach is, what imagery and terminlogy is being used and what they mean. 

And, tell me how you know your version is any more correct than mine.
I don't understand the first part of your response, what did you do?
"A moral philosophy that is fact based should be based upon the facts about human nature and nothing else." - Mortimer J. Adler

Offline velkyn

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Re: I Just Don't Freakin' Get It!
« Reply #28 on: December 14, 2011, 03:46:56 PM »
I don't think most people who are religious take the bible so literally.  Sure, there will be a few groups, but I don't think that's the vast majority. I sure don't.

what do you take literally in the bible, Gill?
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