Author Topic: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?  (Read 836 times)

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Online Aaron123

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Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« on: December 09, 2011, 01:04:31 AM »
How many times have we heard this expression?  Whenever an idea to test prayer or something pops up, so does the expression "thou shall not test the lord!".  Suggust praying to have an amputee's limb restored?  You are testing god, and that's a no-no.  In other words, they expect that god will do nothing at all, and try to shame the other person for suggusting that god do something.

Obviously, they're aware on some level that god does nothing; but I'm wondering if they're consciously aware of what "do not test god" means.  That is; are they consciously aware that they've just said that god does no meaningful actions to speak of, and that he is indistinguishable from a god that does not exist?

I ask because if that's the case, then why pray at all or believe "god will provide"?  If you're consciously aware that god does nothing, then what's the point?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline jtp56

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2011, 01:18:41 AM »
How many times have we heard this expression?  Whenever an idea to test prayer or something pops up, so does the expression "thou shall not test the lord!".  Suggust praying to have an amputee's limb restored?  You are testing god, and that's a no-no.  In other words, they expect that god will do nothing at all, and try to shame the other person for suggusting that god do something.

Obviously, they're aware on some level that god does nothing; but I'm wondering if they're consciously aware of what "do not test god" means.  That is; are they consciously aware that they've just said that god does no meaningful actions to speak of, and that he is indistinguishable from a god that does not exist?

I ask because if that's the case, then why pray at all or believe "god will provide"?  If you're consciously aware that god does nothing, then what's the point?

I've been blasted for misspelling so I can't help it... Suggust....Do you mean Suggest?  Sorry...I want to make a point with other mockers on this site.  I misspell and make gaffes all the time.

Anyway, to address your point (not of your misspelling, which only seems to happen to people of faith, not mockers), Jesus Himself could not heal people in His home town.  So goes it with us.  We're doing what Jesus did.  Jesus was mocked on the cross:  Luke 23:39 "“Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
Can you imagine????  This would soooooo blow out healing an amputee.  But, He died instead.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online Aaron123

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2011, 01:36:59 AM »
Jesus Himself could not heal people in His home town.  So goes it with us.  We're doing what Jesus did.  Jesus was mocked on the cross:  Luke 23:39 "“Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
Can you imagine????  This would soooooo blow out healing an amputee.  But, He died instead.

So Jesus did nothing that would've distinguished himself from an ordinary person.  Tell me, how am I suppose to be impressed here?  I know he's suppose to be god, but you're not providing any reasons for me to think he was the real deal.  So far, he sounds like an ordinary guy that got into some trouble.

Once again I ask; are you consciously aware that you've just said god does no meaningful actions to speak of?  Are you consciously aware that you've just said that your god is indistinguishable from a god that does not exist?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline jtp56

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2011, 02:10:56 AM »
Jesus Himself could not heal people in His home town.  So goes it with us.  We're doing what Jesus did.  Jesus was mocked on the cross:  Luke 23:39 "“Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
Can you imagine????  This would soooooo blow out healing an amputee.  But, He died instead.

So Jesus did nothing that would've distinguished himself from an ordinary person.  Tell me, how am I suppose to be impressed here?  I know he's suppose to be god, but you're not providing any reasons for me to think he was the real deal.  So far, he sounds like an ordinary guy that got into some trouble.

Once again I ask; are you consciously aware that you've just said god does no meaningful actions to speak of?  Are you consciously aware that you've just said that your god is indistinguishable from a god that does not exist?

So to you Jesus dying on the cross for you was not a meaningful action to speak of?  I confess Him as Lord for that and worship Him for that.  What'll it take for you?  Healing of an amputee? 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2011, 02:13:59 AM »
If we are commanded not to test god, then where do we draw the line.  If the local high school prays before the game for protection of the players, then are we testing god? Or what if I pray for a new pair of socks for xmas. Is that a test too?

Offline jtp56

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2011, 02:17:25 AM »
If we are commanded not to test god, then where do we draw the line.  If the local high school prays before the game for protection of the players, then are we testing god? Or what if I pray for a new pair of socks for xmas. Is that a test too?

For God's sake!  I'm talking about your eternal soul and your asking about injuries and socks.  Will a Christian jump out of an airplane without a parachute believing God will save him?  I know, being a Christian, it'll make a nice splat.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Online Aaron123

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2011, 02:46:03 AM »
So to you Jesus dying on the cross for you was not a meaningful action to speak of?

Nope.  Anyone can die on a cross.  Your story even has two other people dying on a cross with him. 


Quote
I confess Him as Lord for that and worship Him for that.  What'll it take for you?  Healing of an amputee?

What I'd look for is something that would be otherwise impossible to do.  Healing an amputee (by this, I mean regenerating the limb) would be one possible example.  Yet, you appear to think god will never do such a thing, is that right?


Quote
For God's sake!  I'm talking about your eternal soul and your asking about injuries and socks.  Will a Christian jump out of an airplane without a parachute believing God will save him?  I know, being a Christian, it'll make a nice splat.

Now this is what I'm talking about.  You've already declared that god will do nothing at all in this situation.  Are you even aware that you expect things to act as though there is no god?  Are you conscious about the fact that your god does nothing?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Poseidon

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2011, 02:47:23 AM »
JTP; It will not be a surprise for you to learn that there are those among us who have doubts about the actual existence of a person named Jesus.  More so a jesus person who was a supernatural being born of jewish virgin.

If we accept the he was an actual person and that the romans crucified him, then what? In fact he died because he had sufficiently irritated those in power. To say that he died for our sins is purely speculative.

It is also a reach to presume that god regards us, one and all, as sinners. Sin is a subjective concept for mere mortals in any case. We must accept that god is/was the sole adjudicator of that which constitutes sin (and that he is pretty hard nosed about the whole sin thing) before we can circle back to the savior status of Jesus.

 

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 02:49:46 AM »
Now this is what I'm talking about.  You've already declared that god will do nothing at all in this situation.  Are you even aware that you expect things to act as though there is no god?  Are you conscious about the fact that your god does nothing?

And, if so, are you also aware that if your god doesn't do anything that will prove his existence, then heaven and hell cannot exist? Heaven and/or hell would prove his existence beyond reasonable doubt.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline kcrady

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2011, 02:51:26 AM »
Obviously, they're aware on some level that god does nothing; but I'm wondering if they're consciously aware of what "do not test god" means.  That is; are they consciously aware that they've just said that god does no meaningful actions to speak of, and that he is indistinguishable from a god that does not exist?

I ask because if that's the case, then why pray at all or believe "god will provide"?  If you're consciously aware that god does nothing, then what's the point?

I would say that they go to a great deal of effort to keep their awareness that Yahweh does nothing compartmentalized away from their felt need to "go through the motions" (prayer, public exclamations of faith in Yahweh's power, etc.) as if Yahweh did things.  When it comes to anticipating how reality will behave, they don't believe in Yahweh, they believe in belief in Yahweh.

They are convinced that having a belief-in-Yahweh provides them with a solid moral code, with meaning and purpose to their lives, and the promise of a blissful eternity after death.  It is also the passport to membership in a community of believers and participation in a set of traditions.  However, for the most part, they can't actually believe in Yahweh.  If they did, they would suffer repeated head-on collisions with reality.  What they have to do is convince themselves (and perhaps more importantly, their fellow believers) that they have a belief-in-Yahweh.  So, they do a whole lot of signaling that says "I have a belief-in-Yahweh!"  All of the public prayers, church services, evangelism, "Jesus name-drops" in conversation, etc. serve to signal the presence of a belief-in-Yahweh. 

Since reality steadfastly refuses to be consistent with claims of Yahweh's existence, believers must desperately seek the only available substitute: validation from other people.  This is why Christians are so frantic to have America be "a Christian nation," why contemplating the absence of things like "In God We Trust" on money or "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance or people saying "Merry CHRISTmas" sends them into fits.

To sustain their belief that they have a belief-in-Yahweh (and thus, that they are good people with meaningful lives who belong in the community of faith), they must rig the contents of their belief-in-Yahweh to have no testable consequences and turn the very idea of testing the belief's validity into a Big No-No.  This rigging involves a further act of mental compartmentalization.  On the one hand, they have to signal that Yahweh is utterly, completely super-awesome and powerful, that they believe in miracles, and so on.  On the other hand, they have to rig their theology so that Yahweh's power never has any actual effects except Long Ago and Far Away (i.e., in Biblical times), and in the Eschatological Future.[1] 

Anticipated consequences of belief-in-Yahweh being accurate generally have to made inaccessible--they happen after death, or during the Eschaton.  Unfortunately this buffer can "leak" if the aspects of reality in question are outside of the immediately-perceivable realm in which humans are primarily wired to operate.  Move out into the future, where something like climate change or peak oil will produce seriously adverse consequences if not acted upon, and many (especially American) believers can wave it way because their belief-in-Yahweh tells them they will be beamed magically up to Heaven before anything gets really bad, and Yahweh will make them a whole new Earth anyway, so there's no real need to take care of this one.  On the personal level, a believer can choose to give up their real life in whole or in part because they think they've got a much better life coming afterward.

I think "the point" is the perceived benefits of having a belief-in-Yahweh.  Having a belief-in-Yahweh means you're not just one more ordinary person going to work in a cube farm every day, you're a spiritual warrior in a cosmic struggle against the forces of Satanic darkness, and whatever good things you do, no matter how modest, echo throughout eternity.  It means you're a good person, a member of the "moral majority," not like those vulgar, immoral sorts who lack belief-in-Yahweh.  It means that, pretty much no matter where you go in America, you can find a group of people who will instantly welcome you among their number on any given Sunday, people who will agree with most or all of your values, your politics, etc.. 

This community membership has real, tangible benefits.  A network of mutual support and moral teamwork, networking opportunities for business, a selection of potential mates and good friends, a system of ritual and community practice that provides the feeling of being part of something bigger than yourself that is engaged in important work.  Look at what jtp56 says: "We're doing what Jesus did."  First of all, his belief-in-Yahweh makes him automatically part of a "we."  Second, it lets him see himself as walking in the sandal-prints of the ultimate mythic[2] hero. 

The last thing he, or any believer like him wants, is for someone to come along and show that none of it's actually real.
 1. Magic is going to start working again someday, when the Antichrist starts working amazing "signs and wonders," and the supernatural judgments of Yahweh start raining down from Heaven.
 2. In the Campbellian sense, rather than the "not-true" sense.
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Offline jtp56

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2011, 03:20:22 AM »
Where do I start?

There is tangible benefits hanging out with others of like precious faith.  Jesus sent His disciples out in two's.  Jesus was the only one who hung on the cross by Himself when no-one was there to believe.  The Bible says you will know them by their fruit.  Unfortunately, you only get the media version, not what happens day to day in the towns where believers live. 

You have no clue what reality is to a Christian.  Good reason why the Bible says do not cast your pearls before the swine.

You don't think Christians know what reality is? 

What is reality kcrady?  Please inform my knuckle dragging ignorant brain what REALITY is.  You don't think Christians experience the same things you do?

The Bible does provide a moral code.  Whats yours?

The preamble to the constitution refers to a creator.  There was a lot of Christian influence early on in this nation although I know you were taught it was for the worst.  I disagree....we can argue that on another thread.

The benefits of belief are real and now in this life.  I am not a spiritual warrior in a cube.  I'm a sinner.

kcrady, you don't have a clue what reality is....but you will,  you will.  Read under the line.
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline kcrady

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2011, 03:26:52 AM »
So to you Jesus dying on the cross for you was not a meaningful action to speak of?  I confess Him as Lord for that and worship Him for that.  What'll it take for you?  Healing of an amputee?

You have no evidence that Jesus died on a cross for me.  In the Gospels, Jesus is portrayed predicting, on several occasions, that the end of the world would take place within the lifespan of his contemporaries.  The High Priest Caiaphas was supposed to live to "see the Son of Man coming in his glory."  If these are accurate recordings of what Jesus said, then he had no awareness that I or anyone living over the last 1900 years or so would ever exist. 

Even if we grant that he believed he would save other people by dying from crucifixion, we have no reason to think that he was right about that.  A far more convincing case can be made that the men who perished on the beaches of Normandy and Iwo Jima "died for me."  I honor their memory for that, but I do not worship them as gods.  Another thing: we are told in the New Testament that by dying on the Cross, Jesus assured himself everlasting domination over the entire Universe.  Not a bad payoff for one bad weekend.  What comic book supervillain wouldn't take that deal?

What about the Bodhisattvas?  They are Buddhists who vowed to refuse entry into Paradise as long as any other beings suffer, anywhere.  Instead, they reincarnate here on Earth with all of its attendant suffering, so that they can help others find the way to freedom from suffering.  The Buddha himself did this after reaching Enlightenment under the Bodhi tree.  Jesus (and all you Christians) can't hold a candle to this kind of compassion, since you all plan on entering heavenly bliss while billions of your fellow human beings suffer everlasting torment.  So why should I worship Jesus instead of Buddha or my favorite Bodhisattva?
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline jtp56

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2011, 03:38:17 AM »
What do you mean by no evidence.  Eye witness accounts is evidence.

Oh man, Jesus is God!  He was their in the beginning.  Dominion is His, He died for us, He brought Himself down.  You have it totally backwards, the real question is why?  You argue the logistics/reasonableness of it.  It makes absolutely no sense from our perspective.  Why would God die for us?  He had it all.  He was the house.  Why give it all away for losers.

If all you go by is Hawking's view of the beginning you'll never get it.  Eternity is outside of time.

What about the Bodhisattvas?  Come on.  You can wear a hole in your forehead praying to your god and still go to hell.  Our works are filthy rags.

Gotta go, don't know when I'll be back.


Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2011, 03:40:21 AM »
What do you mean by no evidence.  Eye witness accounts is evidence.

Oh man, Jesus is God!  He was their in the beginning.  Dominion is His, He died for us, He brought Himself down.  You have it totally backwards, the real question is why?  You argue the logistics/reasonableness of it.  It makes absolutely no sense from our perspective.  Why would God die for us?  He had it all.  He was the house.  Why give it all away for losers.

Oh man, I am God! I was their[1] in the beginning.  Dominion is Mine, I died for you, I brought Myself down.  You have it totally backwards, the real question is why?  You argue the logistics/reasonableness of it.  It makes absolutely no sense from your perspective.  Why would I die for you?  I had it all.  I was the house.[2]  Why give it all away for losers.

Quod erat demonstrandum, I am the Lord, your God.
 1. Whose? :shrug:
 2. I wasn't really that fat, but OK...
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline kcrady

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2011, 04:13:20 AM »
Where do I start?

There is tangible benefits hanging out with others of like precious faith.

Yes, I said so in my post.  Humans are social animals, we gain a lot from membership in a community.

Jesus sent His disciples out in two's.

I'm not sure where you're going with this.  Would anything have been different if he'd sent them out in threes?

Jesus was the only one who hung on the cross by Himself when no-one was there to believe.

Wrong.  According to the story, one of the robbers crucified with him came to believe in him.  In John's Gospel, his mother Mary and "the Beloved Disciple" were there, since Jesus was able to tell the Disciple to take care of his mother.

The Bible says you will know them by their fruit.  Unfortunately, you only get the media version, not what happens day to day in the towns where believers live.

There are good and bad Christians, just like there are good and bad Hindus, Atheists, Muslims, Buddhists, etc., etc..  However, it is interesting to note that statistics for societal health (crime rates, public health, teen pregnancy, etc.) tend to be better in non-religious societies (e.g. Sweden, Japan) than in the much more religious United States.   

You have no clue what reality is to a Christian.  Good reason why the Bible says do not cast your pearls before the swine.

Yes I do.  I was one.  I anticipate now that you will engage the No True Scotsman Fallacy, and claim that I was not a real Christian.

You don't think Christians know what reality is?

When it comes to anticipating how reality will behave, you anticipate that it does not include a deity who can or will suspend the generalized operating principles of physics in your favor.  You anticipate that Yahweh will do nothing.  So, on that level at least, yes, Christians know what reality is.  You live in the same godless Universe we do. 

What is reality kcrady?  Please inform my knuckle dragging ignorant brain what REALITY is.  You don't think Christians experience the same things you do?

Yes, I do think Christians experience the same things I do.  That is exactly my point.  You live in the same godless Universe we do.

The Bible does provide a moral code.  Whats yours?

"Be excellent to each other!" *Air guitar*

The preamble to the constitution refers to a creator.

You're not talking about the preamble to the U.S. Constitution, are you?  Here it is:

Quote
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

Could you please point me to any mention of a creator there? 

Now look at what it does say.  Notice the complete absence of any indication that the system of government about to be spelled out comes from the Bible, creeds or traditions of any church, or any other sort of divine revelation or authority.  Instead, it is formed by We The People, acting independently of any gods.  You live under the same godless Constitution we do. :D

There was a lot of Christian influence early on in this nation although I know you were taught it was for the worst.  I disagree....we can argue that on another thread.

There was also a lot of pagan influence.  Just look at the architecture of Washington D.C..  None of the major government buildings and monuments are modeled after ancient Jewish architecture or medieval European cathedrals.  It's all Greco-Roman, and that's before you start looking at all the esoteric Masonic symbolism.  The structure of our Republic's government is based on pagan societies like the Iroquois Confederacy, the Roman Republic, and Athenian democracy.  You will find nothing like it in Exodus, Leviticus, or Deuteronomy, where Yahweh's preferred system of government is outlined.  The Ten Commandments and the Ten Amendments (Bill of Rights) are diametrically opposite to one another.

The benefits of belief are real and now in this life.

Exactly as I explained in my post.  And those benefits have nothing to do with the belief being accurate.  They're benefits you get from professing the belief.

kcrady, you don't have a clue what reality is....but you will,  you will.  Read under the line.

*Sigh*  There just aren't enough facepalms.  You guys always have to go to the well for Pascal's Wager, don't you?  Again, this is exactly as I explained in my post: you have to place any anticipated consequences for your beliefs in inaccessible places, like after death.  Your implied threat that I'll be punished after death for not sharing your professed beliefs are no more frightening to me than the threats of Islamic, or ancient Egyptian, or Norse "hell" are to you, and for the same reason: the threats aren't credible.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

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Offline kcrady

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 04:26:50 AM »
What do you mean by no evidence.  Eye witness accounts is evidence.

First of all, you don't have any eyewitness accounts.  What you have are stories about "eyewitnesses" that were written by anonymous authors decades after the events they purport to relate, then copied, re-copied, and re-re-copied, translated, re-translated, and re-re translated for over a thousand years before the printing press came into use, all by error-prone human beings. 

But let's say you did have actual eyewitness accounts.  So what?  Do you believe in flying saucers, alien abductions, chupacabras, Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, ghosts, telekinesis, apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary, the miracle-working powers of Sathya Sai Baba, and that Elvis and Michael Jackson are both still alive?  All of these claims have people who say they're eyewitnesses backing them up.  And unlike the authors of the Gospels or any of Jesus' alleged disciples, we can interview these eyewitnesses today instead of relying on translations of translations of copies of copies of dodgy ancient manuscripts.
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline kcrady

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 04:28:54 AM »
Quod erat demonstrandum, I am the Lord, your God.

You do have the distinct advantage of actually existing...
"The question of whether atheists are, you know, right, typically gets sidestepped in favor of what is apparently the much more compelling question of whether atheists are jerks."

--Greta Christina

Offline jetson

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 08:39:34 AM »
jtp56,

You are preaching a lot in this thread, which is against the forum rules.  Please stop the preaching towards forum members immediately, unless you prefer to have each of your replies approved by a moderator, which can easily be arranged.

Jetson

Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 09:08:07 AM »
So to you Jesus dying on the cross for you was not a meaningful action to speak of? 

I tend to think that Dionysis would be the appropriate GoD to worship sense he was the first person crucified.
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline Nick

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2011, 09:14:36 AM »
Jesus Himself could not heal people in His home town.  So goes it with us.  We're doing what Jesus did.  Jesus was mocked on the cross:  Luke 23:39 "“Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!”
Can you imagine????  This would soooooo blow out healing an amputee.  But, He died instead.

So Jesus did nothing that would've distinguished himself from an ordinary person.  Tell me, how am I suppose to be impressed here?  I know he's suppose to be god, but you're not providing any reasons for me to think he was the real deal.  So far, he sounds like an ordinary guy that got into some trouble.

Once again I ask; are you consciously aware that you've just said god does no meaningful actions to speak of?  Are you consciously aware that you've just said that your god is indistinguishable from a god that does not exist?

So to you Jesus dying on the cross for you was not a meaningful action to speak of?  I confess Him as Lord for that and worship Him for that.  What'll it take for you?  Healing of an amputee?
I dont understand why dying is such a big deal.  He was up and around in no time and back in heaven doing whatever he did before He popped out to say "Im here".
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline velkyn

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2011, 09:46:33 AM »
What do you mean by no evidence.  Eye witness accounts is evidence.
Oh man, Jesus is God!  He was their in the beginning.  Dominion is His, He died for us, He brought Himself down.  You have it totally backwards, the real question is why?  You argue the logistics/reasonableness of it.  It makes absolutely no sense from our perspective.  Why would God die for us?  He had it all.  He was the house.  Why give it all away for losers.
evidence please.  You could be just one more Muslim makign the same claims about Allah or a Hindu making the same claims about Vishnu.   

Your question is interesting though, why indeed go through the puppet play that your story book has your god doing?  Makes no sense at all for an omniscient omnipotent being.  However, it does make sense as a story ginned up by arrogant ignorant people who wanted to make themselves feel special. 
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If all you go by is Hawking's view of the beginning you'll never get it.  Eternity is outside of time.
then why is god restricted by time again and again?
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What about the Bodhisattvas?  Come on.  You can wear a hole in your forehead praying to your god and still go to hell.  Our works are filthy rags.
yep, and you have as much proof that your nonsesne is true as they do.  You don't seem to get that. 
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Gotta go, don't know when I'll be back.

brave brave, sir robin. 
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Offline Swanny

Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 09:53:41 AM »
I tend to think that Dionysis would be the appropriate GoD to worship sense he was the first person crucified.

I did some research on this (just an hour or so of free time, once) and couldn't really find anything. I may have just missed it. What is your source for this?

Many thanks.
The most basic fact of life is that there has to be a creator and to deny this no matter how many phd's u have mean you are still at the most elementary stage of true knowledge.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2011, 09:58:56 AM »
Quod erat demonstrandum, I am the Lord, your God.

You do have the distinct advantage of actually existing...

IKR. ;D
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #23 on: December 09, 2011, 10:11:05 AM »
...What about the Bodhisattvas?  They are Buddhists who vowed to refuse entry into Paradise as long as any other beings suffer, anywhere.  Instead, they reincarnate here on Earth with all of its attendant suffering, so that they can help others find the way to freedom from suffering.  The Buddha himself did this after reaching Enlightenment under the Bodhi tree.  Jesus (and all you Christians) can't hold a candle to this kind of compassion, since you all plan on entering heavenly bliss while billions of your fellow human beings suffer everlasting torment.  So why should I worship Jesus instead of Buddha or my favorite Bodhisattva?

This is really beautiful, kcrady. Thanks for sharing it. Furthermore, although Buddha himself is not the one who said it, it is said that if you meet Buddha on the road, kill him. The point being that we all must find our own path, rather than blindly follow others. It's the blindness that truly gets me about many of the so-called western religions.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline gonegolfing

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #24 on: December 09, 2011, 10:34:56 AM »
How many times have we heard this expression?  Whenever an idea to test prayer or something pops up, so does the expression "thou shall not test the lord!".  Suggust praying to have an amputee's limb restored?  You are testing god, and that's a no-no.  In other words, they expect that god will do nothing at all, and try to shame the other person for suggusting that god do something.

Obviously, they're aware on some level that god does nothing; but I'm wondering if they're consciously aware of what "do not test god" means.  That is; are they consciously aware that they've just said that god does no meaningful actions to speak of, and that he is indistinguishable from a god that does not exist?

I ask because if that's the case, then why pray at all or believe "god will provide"?  If you're consciously aware that god does nothing, then what's the point?

Most theists get to the point in their "walk with god" that they couldn't really give a rats ass what god does or does not do, or allow.

They get so exhausted with trying to figure it all out and trying to wrap their heads around the whole messy thing, that the only energy that they end up having left is to simply try and hang on and concentrate on the promised Lollipop at the end of it all.

How pathetic is that ?

They're so tired that they have to leave the proselytizing and explanations up to the idiot punks for jesus like jtp56 and feel embarrassed to have to do so...but they're all out of gas and therefore simply go through the motions with god in hopes that he doesn't notice that they've given up and that their faith is weak.

They pray to save face. 
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 10:37:28 AM by gonegolfing »
"I believe that there is no God. I'm beyond atheism"....Penn Jillette.

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2011, 01:45:17 PM »
The OT and NT both say never put the Lord God to the test. Yet, Gideon tested Yahweh with the wet/dry fleece trick, Elijah tested Yahweh with the fire trick, and Hezekiah & Isaiah tested Yahweh with the turn-the–sun-back trick.  That's the great thing about scripture: it allows you to argue both sides of a point simultaneously.

 
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Offline velkyn

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2011, 01:55:53 PM »
I'd also add that JC is all about testing God/himself.  "Knock and the door shall be opened."  So knock already.  Test this god. If God fails this, then you know. 

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7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
   9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

of course, it seems that God fails this test, which is why modern Christians have come up with the usual excuses why prayers fail.
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Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2011, 08:31:01 PM »
I did some research on this (just an hour or so of free time, once) and couldn't really find anything. I may have just missed it. What is your source for this?

Many thanks.

Well, I just read the stories and put them side by side with Jesus, but you can find some here, here, .

According to their respective histories/folklore, Dionysus and Jesus were both born of a mortal virgin mother and an immortal father. They are also both associated with the persistence or immortality of the human soul, and both are associated with rituals involving eating and drinking items symbolic of their flesh and blood (cult rites for Dionysus, and Communion for Jesus Christ). Also, according to Greek-Roman mythology, Dionysus dies and descends into Hell for three days, then rises again, still living. In the Bible, Jesus is said to die for three days before returning to Earth as a living man.

But here are some from the christian side that I will let you decipher, they are here, and here
When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.”--- Sinclair Lewis

I believe there is something out there watching over us. Unfortunately, it's the government.

Offline Historicity

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Re: Do they know what "thou shall not test god" means?
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2011, 08:50:24 PM »
So to you Jesus dying on the cross for you was not a meaningful action to speak of? 

I tend to think that Dionysis would be the appropriate GoD to worship sense he was the first person crucified.
Astreja isn't here to object but Odin did it too and in a cosmic location.  He nailed himself on Yggdrasil the tree that reaches from Earth to Heaven.  In his own words in the Scriptures[1]:

    Three days I hung upon the World Tree
     Myself sacrificed unto Myself.

Thus he won the wisdom to create Valhalla and defend it against the Frost Giants for a long, long time. 

Since this happened in a cosmic primordial time it seems to me that Odin predates Dionysus.
 1. The Eddas