Author Topic: No One Is Born Gay!!!!  (Read 3200 times)

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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #87 on: December 08, 2011, 07:00:00 PM »
ToT:
Quote
It seems that many define homosexual as being someone that desires the sexual companionship of a member of the same sex, whereas what I am declaring is that a homosexual is someone that not only desires same sex companionship, but also acts on that desire.
Declaring? Who made you King? Did I miss a memo?   

Why don't we simply use the words as they're currently defined?

According to Wiki, homosexualityWiki is:
Quote
romantic or sexual attraction or behavior between members of the same sex or gender.
Attraction or behaviour, right?

The article goes on to define homosexual orientation purely in terms of attraction:
Quote
As a sexual orientation, homosexuality refers to "an enduring pattern of or disposition to experience sexual, affectional, or romantic attractions" primarily or exclusively to people of the same sex;
Attraction only, right?

It then goes on to define homosexual identity, thus:
Quote
it [homosexuality] also refers to an individual's sense of personal and social identity based on those attractions, behaviors expressing them, and membership in a community of others who share them.
So the identity is based on attraction or behaviour.

I appreciate that it's a little confusing to have the same word mean three quite distinct concepts; orientation, behaviour, and identity. But the intended meaning should be clear from the context.

In the case of a lesbian prostitute who has sex with men for money, it would seem reasonable to describe her professional behaviour as heterosexual but her orientation and identity (and her personal behaviour with her female partner) as lesbian.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 07:06:08 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #88 on: December 08, 2011, 07:36:27 PM »
I haven't read the whole thread but has anyone mentioned Xq28?

When you start digging into genetics looking for cause and effect you open up Pandora's box. For example, If the gene/genes responsible for sexual preference were positively identified then a persons sexuality effectively becomes a choice since we can "switch" genes on or off.

Same conundrum for people born with religious inclinations. If there is a real biological reason why people are predisposed to believe in superstition could we not isolate that area of the brain and "fix" it?

If so then who gets to decide what is "right" and what is "wrong"? Don't judge me...I was born this way  ;)
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Offline One Above All

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2011, 02:41:23 AM »
I haven't read the whole thread but has anyone mentioned Xq28?

Nope.

When you start digging into genetics looking for cause and effect you open up Pandora's box. For example, If the gene/genes responsible for sexual preference were positively identified then a persons sexuality effectively becomes a choice since we can "switch" genes on or off.

Not really. I'm not very familiar with gene therapy, but I'm pretty sure it's very expensive.
However, personally, even if I had the choice and it wouldn't affect me in any way other than changing my sexuality, I'd choose to stay this way. I actually enjoy being who I am.
Although this would certainly increase discrimination, both from the LGBT and the homophobes.

Same conundrum for people born with religious inclinations. If there is a real biological reason why people are predisposed to believe in superstition could we not isolate that area of the brain and "fix" it?

Theoretically, yes.

If so then who gets to decide what is "right" and what is "wrong"?

Same as always - the majority. It's not perfect, but it's all we have right now.

Don't judge me...I was born this way  ;)

*Is judging you* :P
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2011, 10:35:18 AM »
Declaring? Who made you King? Did I miss a memo?   
I was Prince of Imtheshitsville many years ago Gnu. I then met the Princess of Youdabombbitchland, and subsequently joined our kingdom's via consummation. As it stands now with the passing of our ancestors, I find myself in the position of King.


I appreciate that it's a little confusing to have the same word mean three quite distinct concepts; orientation, behaviour, and identity. But the intended meaning should be clear from the context.

Then you basically get my point of contention with the muddy waters that the current usage and definition often leads to.

In the case of a lesbian prostitute who has sex with men for money, it would seem reasonable to describe her professional behaviour as heterosexual but her orientation and identity (and her personal behaviour with her female partner) as lesbian.

This is where I seem to be in disagreement with damn near everyone on here. This sounds absolutely ridiculous because we are talking about an individual, not multiple people! Though the woman may prefer being a lesbian, her decisions reflect the reality that she is in fact bisexual no matter how she wishes to view or classify herself. It seems rather obvious.


Offline velkyn

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #91 on: December 09, 2011, 10:56:24 AM »
This is where I seem to be in disagreement with damn near everyone on here. This sounds absolutely ridiculous because we are talking about an individual, not multiple people! Though the woman may prefer being a lesbian, her decisions reflect the reality that she is in fact bisexual no matter how she wishes to view or classify herself. It seems rather obvious.

no, only by how *you* want to define her, not how she would define her self. It does come down to who makes your opinion the only right one as you seem to wnat to insist it should be.
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #92 on: December 09, 2011, 11:05:32 AM »
TruthOT:
Quote
Though the woman may prefer being a lesbian, her decisions reflect the reality that she is in fact bisexual no matter how she wishes to view or classify herself.
No, because in our hypothetical example our lesbian is sexually attracted only to her own gender, which in terms of her orientation defines her as lesbian, not bi-sexual.

But she's still able to engage in heterosexual behaviour for other reasons i.e. money, if she so wishes. That has no effect on her orientation, which remains the same. 

Quote
Then you basically get my point of contention with the muddy waters that the current usage and definition often leads to.
The only reason the water is muddy in this thread is because you want to change the current definitions.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 11:12:51 AM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline One Above All

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #93 on: December 09, 2011, 11:07:32 AM »
This is where I seem to be in disagreement with damn near everyone on here. This sounds absolutely ridiculous because we are talking about an individual, not multiple people! Though the woman may prefer being a lesbian, her decisions reflect the reality that she is in fact bisexual no matter how she wishes to view or classify herself. It seems rather obvious.

no, only by how *you* want to define her, not how she would define her self. It does come down to who makes your opinion the only right one as you seem to want to insist it should be.

Not to mention that for Truth OT's opinion to be right, he has to redefine sexuality.

Truth OT, per your flawed PoV, what is a virgin? Asexual?

<snip>

Gnu Ordure, Truth OT has already stated that he is redefining sexuality. He has also shown that he does not understand why his argument fails.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #94 on: December 09, 2011, 11:13:23 AM »
What TOT is doing is little different, in principle, from redefining "male" according to stereotypical masculine behaviours, and "female" according to stereotypical feminine behaviours, so that a tomboy is termed "male", while a 'pansy' sort of guy becomes "female".  This makes far more sense, according to TOT's reasoning, because behaviour is more important than one's own state.

The one difference is that TOT's proposition involves neglecting peoples' mental states, while my comparison involves neglecting their physical states.  Both are neglected in favor of behaviour.  Both are definite states, albeit with different degrees of evidence available to identify them.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #95 on: December 09, 2011, 11:22:24 AM »
Why does consent matter?  Consent only reflects one's thoughts.  Thoughts are off-topic to your labelling system.  You cannot judge based on consent and be consistent with your own system's standards.

I'm also curious as to your response to this, TOT.  Consent is internal.  It is subjective.  It cannot be verified.  All that can be verified are the actions of consent - like signing a contract, or wearing a sexy outfit.[1]
 1. Read some sarcasm here, please.
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #96 on: December 09, 2011, 12:02:06 PM »
TruthOT:
Quote
I problem I see that perhaps some are blind to is that in many cases, sexuality and even sexual orientation has proven to be something that can be changed.
Sexual orientation can't be changed by an effort of will or by psychotherapy.

On the other hand, sexual orientation is not immutable. There are examples of people's orientation changing in later life, but science doesn't know why this happens.

Quote
What I ask is, why the apparent desire to want people to have a static sexual orientation aquired at birth that cannot be changed? I don't get it. People can be dynamic with most aspects of their lives, why prohibit sexuality and sexual orientation from being among those aspects?
Who says they want people to have a static sexual orientation? Who is trying to prohibit anything? These appear to be straw men of your own devising.

What you may be referring to is the resistance in psychological circles to the concept of Reparative Therapy, which insists that therapy can alter orientation, for which there is no solid evidence.

And the Christian Right are desperate that Reparative Therapy should work, because they're desperate that homosexuality should be a choice, because otherwise God created homosexuals which makes him look like a dickhead, given that homosexual behaviour is a mortal Sin.

« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 12:06:53 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #97 on: December 09, 2011, 12:16:16 PM »
This is where I seem to be in disagreement with damn near everyone on here. This sounds absolutely ridiculous because we are talking about an individual, not multiple people! Though the woman may prefer being a lesbian, her decisions reflect the reality that she is in fact bisexual no matter how she wishes to view or classify herself. It seems rather obvious.

no, only by how *you* want to define her, not how she would define her self. It does come down to who makes your opinion the only right one as you seem to wnat to insist it should be.

How I wish to define her is just as irrelevant as how she wishes to define herself, or even how society wishes to define her. ALL ARE SUBJECTIVE. What is not subjective are her actions. They provide a real, accurate, tangible means by which her sexuality can be objectively verified.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #98 on: December 09, 2011, 12:20:11 PM »
The one difference is that TOT's proposition involves neglecting peoples' mental states, while my comparison involves neglecting their physical states.  Both are neglected in favor of behaviour.  Both are definite states, albeit with different degrees of evidence available to identify them.

The bold is where I object. One is definitive while the other is often perceived subjectively.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #99 on: December 09, 2011, 12:22:24 PM »
Why does consent matter?  Consent only reflects one's thoughts.  Thoughts are off-topic to your labelling system.  You cannot judge based on consent and be consistent with your own system's standards.

I'm also curious as to your response to this, TOT.  Consent is internal.  It is subjective.  It cannot be verified.  All that can be verified are the actions of consent - like signing a contract, or wearing a sexy outfit.[1]
 1. Read some sarcasm here, please.

So are you saying that consent cannot be verified and there is no means of disciphering between consent and external compulsion? If you are, I call buttshit.

Offline One Above All

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #100 on: December 09, 2011, 12:27:17 PM »
How I wish to define her is just as irrelevant as how she wishes to define herself, or even how society wishes to define her. ALL ARE SUBJECTIVE. What is not subjective are her actions. They provide a real, accurate, tangible means by which her sexuality can be objectively verified.

So feelings don't matter? If I was a homophobe[1], for example, but never actively discriminated against homosexuals, would you say that I wasn't a homophobe? Or would you say that I was restraining myself?
Likewise, if I feel sexually attracted to men and women[2] but never have sex with either, would you say that I was asexual? Or would you say that I was simply restraining myself?
 1. Felt disgust and/or hatred and/or fear for everything I perceive to be homosexual.
 2. Id est: I was bisexual; id est: I felt aroused when I looked at men and women I considered attractive.
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Offline albeto

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #101 on: December 09, 2011, 12:28:14 PM »
How I wish to define her is just as irrelevant as how she wishes to define herself, or even how society wishes to define her. ALL ARE SUBJECTIVE. What is not subjective are her actions. They provide a real, accurate, tangible means by which her sexuality can be objectively verified.

One's actions are not the sum and summary of their identity.   In a world where subjective identity is a bit fluid, the standards are maintained for good reason - they are generally universally understood to share the same meaning.  A person isn't identified just by what they do, but by their own intentions and how they identify themselves as well.  For this reason we don't accept people claiming someone isn't a "real Christian."  One is a christian if they identify themselves as a christian, regardless of how anyone else would identify them.   

Offline Traveler

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #102 on: December 09, 2011, 12:35:27 PM »
If I am a flower, I am oriented to the sun. During the darkness of nighttime, I cannot turn to face the sunlight, but I am still a flower with an orientation to the sun.

I have not been in a romantic/sexual relationship in several years. By your definition I am now asexual. Certainly my behavior is not sexual at this time. But my orientation is alive and well thank you. I still smile when I see Duane "The Rock" Johnson in a movie. I still admire a nice set of pecs. My orientation is toward men. It really doesn't matter that at this point in time I'm not acting on it. My orientation remains the same.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #103 on: December 09, 2011, 12:37:14 PM »
Let me rephrase my last post:
If you want something but don't actually work on getting it, does that mean that you don't want it? Or does it simply mean that you don't want to/can't get it?

Consider this:
I want a Ferrari. However, I can't get one through ethical means, so I don't get one. Does that mean that I don't want one? Is my desire not true and objective?
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #104 on: December 09, 2011, 12:40:49 PM »
Sexual orientation can't be changed by an effort of will or by psychotherapy.

On the other hand, sexual orientation is not immutable. There are examples of people's orientation changing in later life, but science doesn't know why this happens.

Quote
What I ask is, why the apparent desire to want people to have a static sexual orientation aquired at birth that cannot be changed? I don't get it. People can be dynamic with most aspects of their lives, why prohibit sexuality and sexual orientation from being among those aspects?
Who says they want people to have a static sexual orientation? Who is trying to prohibit anything? These appear to be straw men of your own devising.

What you may be referring to is the resistance in psychological circles to the concept of Reparative Therapy, which insists that therapy can alter orientation, for which there is no solid evidence.

And the Christian Right are desperate that Reparative Therapy should work, because they're desperate that homosexuality should be a choice, because otherwise God created homosexuals which makes him look like a dickhead, given that homosexual behaviour is a mortal Sin.

What proof, (notice I said proof as opposed to "informed" opinions), supports your bold proclamation that an individual's S.O. cannot be changed purposely by that individuals (will) or via external manipulation (psychotherapy, etc.)?

Damn what the christian right wants and damn what the psychological communities agrees upon if neither is based in fact. The fact that S.O. has proven to be mutable shows that it can be changed at least in SOME individuals, there just happens to be no hard and fast mechanism that is known that will affect change in everyone. We have no proof that anyone is born into any particular S.O., but what we can observe is that one's initial sexual orientation is often attained or acquired at so young of an age that it is apparent that no conscious choice was involved in the matter. Saying anything more is like adding God to the gaps.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #105 on: December 09, 2011, 12:46:37 PM »
So feelings don't matter? If I was a homophobe[1], for example, but never actively discriminated against homosexuals, would you say that I wasn't a homophobe? Or would you say that I was restraining myself?
Likewise, if I feel sexually attracted to men and women[2] but never have sex with either, would you say that I was asexual? Or would you say that I was simply restraining myself?
 1. Felt disgust and/or hatred and/or fear for everything I perceive to be homosexual.
 2. Id est: I was bisexual; id est: I felt aroused when I looked at men and women I considered attractive.

Never said feelings didn't matter. What I have been saying is that feelings are usually ancillary to actions. As far as the homophobe scenario, I addressed the same issue earlier in discussing whether or not a person was a racist. For me, I see having to use the established terms as being problematic. If you feel attracted to men and women simultaneously, but never act sexually in reference to either, I would consider you bisexual or asexual. What purpose would there be in me labeling you from a sexual perspective at all?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 12:49:26 PM by Truth OT »

Offline One Above All

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #106 on: December 09, 2011, 12:51:48 PM »
Never said feelings didn't matter.

Really?

...If someone were to tell me they were gay, I'd believe them and be willing to place that label on them if they desired so, howeva, if that person said they were a gay virgin, I'd find such a statent to be odd and a mit oxymoronic (for lack of a better description). To me, this person is no more gay than the person with a strong sensitivity for the plight of the needy and intends to feed and clothe them, but never gets around to it or even attempting it is a philantropist.

What I have been saying is that feelings are usually ancillary to actions.

Read above.

<snip>
For me, I see having to use the established terms as being problematic.

I like men. I like women. I'm bisexual.
What's problematic about that?

If you feel attracted to men and women simultaneously, but never act sexually in reference to either, I would consider you bisexual or asexual. Whay purpose would there be in me labeling you from a sexual perspective at all?

If there is no purpose, then why do you place the labels anyway? Why not let me place the labels on myself? Or someone else place those labels on me?

What you're doing here is being egocentric, pure and simple. You're arguing that your definition of sexuality is better than the actual definition, while using it to "prove" your point, despite the fact that it has more flaws than ID.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #107 on: December 09, 2011, 12:59:38 PM »
So, for practical purposes, how I see myself trumps everything else. I don't consider myself a murderer but I know for a fact I would be willing to kill someone for money. There for I am not a murderer. Makes perfect sense.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #108 on: December 09, 2011, 01:03:43 PM »
So, for practical purposes, how I see myself trumps everything else. I don't consider myself a murderer but I know for a fact I would be willing to kill someone for money. There for I am not a murderer. Makes perfect sense.

...What is this I don't even
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #109 on: December 09, 2011, 01:04:59 PM »
So are you saying that consent cannot be verified and there is no means of disciphering between consent and external compulsion? If you are, I call buttshit.

That would, indeed, be absolute bullshit.  Or buttshit, as you prefer.  But I am not the one saying it - you are, in your argument.  Consent is a state of mind.  So is sexual preference.  Why does one count, and not the other?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #110 on: December 09, 2011, 01:09:31 PM »
So, for practical purposes, how I see myself trumps everything else. I don't consider myself a murderer but I know for a fact I would be willing to kill someone for money. There for I am not a murderer. Makes perfect sense.

"Murderer" describes people who have murdered.  Is there a word for people with a persistent compulsion to murder?

Is it reasonable to use the word for people with a persistent compulsion to murder, to describe everyone who has ever committed a murder?

Why, or why not?
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #111 on: December 09, 2011, 01:41:56 PM »
Never said feelings didn't matter.

Really?

...If someone were to tell me they were gay, I'd believe them and be willing to place that label on them if they desired so, howeva, if that person said they were a gay virgin, I'd find such a statent to be odd and a mit oxymoronic (for lack of a better description). To me, this person is no more gay than the person with a strong sensitivity for the plight of the needy and intends to feed and clothe them, but never gets around to it or even attempting it is a philantropist.

What I have been saying is that feelings are usually ancillary to actions.

Read above.

<snip>
For me, I see having to use the established terms as being problematic.

I like men. I like women. I'm bisexual.
What's problematic about that?

If you feel attracted to men and women simultaneously, but never act sexually in reference to either, I would consider you bisexual or asexual. Whay purpose would there be in me labeling you from a sexual perspective at all?

If there is no purpose, then why do you place the labels anyway? Why not let me place the labels on myself? Or someone else place those labels on me?

What you're doing here is being egocentric, pure and simple. You're arguing that your definition of sexuality is better than the actual definition, while using it to "prove" your point, despite the fact that it has more flaws than ID.

It's not right to cherry-pick Luc. In the course of what I have written here I have repeatedly declared that feelings do matter, but in most settings are of secondary relevance when compared with actions.

What you seem to miss about what I am asking, saying, and proposing is the fact that I do not wish to label unless evidence of a decision or an action has taken place. For the person that has bisexual inclinations, yet doesn't act upon them, what I am advocating is NOT GIVING THEM A SEXUAL LABEL AT ALL. The same is true for the virgin that has never been on base or at the batter's box with another person.   

Offline One Above All

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #112 on: December 09, 2011, 01:53:35 PM »
In the course of what I have written here I have repeatedly declared that feelings do matter, but in most settings are of secondary relevance when compared with actions.

And your reasoning for saying that sexuality is one of those settings is... Right, you have no rational reason for it.

What you seem to miss about what I am asking, saying, and proposing is the fact that I do not wish to label unless evidence of a decision or an action has taken place.

I did not miss it. However, you did miss the flaws that everyone keeps pointing out in that proposition.

For the person that has bisexual inclinations, yet doesn't act upon them, what I am advocating is NOT GIVING THEM A SEXUAL LABEL AT ALL.

For a person who is X, yet does not act upon it, what is right is to call them X.

The same is true for the virgin that has never been on base or at the batter's box with another person.   

*Raises hand*
Yet I am still bisexual because I feel sexually attracted to males and females.
This is what sexuality is, whether one acts on it or not.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline velkyn

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #113 on: December 09, 2011, 01:58:36 PM »
What you seem to miss about what I am asking, saying, and proposing is the fact that I do not wish to label unless evidence of a decision or an action has taken place. For the person that has bisexual inclinations, yet doesn't act upon them, what I am advocating is NOT GIVING THEM A SEXUAL LABEL AT ALL. The same is true for the virgin that has never been on base or at the batter's box with another person.

for someone who doesnt' supposedly want to label someone sexually, you sure spend a lot of time trying to come up with different labels to well, I'm not sure what you want to do, unless you are just personally uncomfortable with someone self-identifying as "x" or "y".  Unless you have going to have sex with them, what do you care? What is the point of this whole discussion?
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

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Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #114 on: December 09, 2011, 02:29:14 PM »
What you seem to miss about what I am asking, saying, and proposing is the fact that I do not wish to label unless evidence of a decision or an action has taken place. For the person that has bisexual inclinations, yet doesn't act upon them, what I am advocating is NOT GIVING THEM A SEXUAL LABEL AT ALL. The same is true for the virgin that has never been on base or at the batter's box with another person.

for someone who doesnt' supposedly want to label someone sexually, you sure spend a lot of time trying to come up with different labels to well, I'm not sure what you want to do, unless you are just personally uncomfortable with someone self-identifying as "x" or "y".  Unless you have going to have sex with them, what do you care? What is the point of this whole discussion?

I don't really want to propose different new labels, I am just saying that the overutilization of the current labels serves to muddy the waters and can often be meaningless and irrelevant.

Good question. And honestly, I cannot answer it. This discussion got off into labels and the labelling aspect snowballed and became the entire focus to the point where I cannot remember where it is I initially planned on taking this thread.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #115 on: December 09, 2011, 02:50:42 PM »
Going back and reading the OP has helped me get back "on task" and away from the semantics of labels. As I recall, I started this thread to challenge the notion that any and everyone is born with a particular sexual preference/orientation they can do nothing about.

The argument I am raising is based on the following:
- it is wrong to force others to feel the need to change their own personal S.O.
- individuals typically become dispositioned at a very young as it pertains to S.O.
- the issue should be viewed on a case by case basis because all people of the same S.O. are not necessarily the same.
- we have not been able to indentify the causes of S.O., leaving the door open to those causes being either biological, environmental, subconscious, or a combination.
- it is dishonest to proclaim that one's S.O. is immutable
- it is disingenuous to say that we know it is acquired at or before birth


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My hypothesis is that due in large part to the predjudice and unfairness that has been directed towards the gay community, in order to combat it and in the interest of "unifying the troops" for equality as well as other interests (that perhaps have nothing to do with S.O.), some have been disingenious in declaring one's sexuality as being a hard and fast thing one is born with like skin color, physical attributes, or certain disabilities.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 02:59:14 PM by Truth OT »