Author Topic: No One Is Born Gay!!!!  (Read 3546 times)

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Offline Truth OT

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No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« on: December 07, 2011, 11:33:19 AM »
or straight, or sinful, etc............... (I was gonna title this thread human sexuality, but I decided upon this title instead beacuse I thought it would be more of an attention grabber).
Sorry kcrady for using your words to start a thread w/o your permission, but they sparked back to life a dormant thought at rest in my mind.

The people on the other side of the gay rights issue think homosexuality is "an opinion and/or a thought," i.e., a choice, and if gays would only accept Jesus as their personal Lord an' Savior, why, they could be good heterosexuals like the rest of us.

 As I read the above quote in another thread and it made me want to ask why anyone believes that sexuality is anything but a personal choice. Maybe I am missing something, but saying that someone is born gay or even born straight is a lot like saying that people are born into sin. How does "Original Sexuality" sound anymore reasonable to someone than does "Original Sin?"

Here are some questions I have.

1. If you are a virgin, how can you be considered either gay or straight?
2. Why do otherwise reasonable people equate sexuality with race as if it is an apples to apples comparison?
3. How is heterosexuality any more or less of a choice than homosexuality?
4. Why does it seem like people want to caste sexuality as a lifestyle as opposed to a personal and usually private behavior practiced by consenting adults?

Online Azdgari

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 11:40:09 AM »
As I understand it, "born gay" refers to whether someone will end up mainly being sexually attracted to the same gender, or to the opposite gender.  The point being that it is not a deliberate choice to like one gender over the other.

If you disagree, then when did you make the conscious choice to start being attracted to the gender that you like?
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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2011, 11:42:24 AM »
I'm with Azdgari.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline One Above All

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2011, 11:45:50 AM »
I have a better question: Why does everyone seem to forget that there are four "sides" to sexuality[1] and only refer to two[2]?
 1. Heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual and asexual.
 2. Heterosexual and homosexual.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2011, 11:47:27 AM »
1. If you are a virgin, how can you be considered either gay or straight?

Just because you haven't done the deed doesn't rule out that you know who you're sexually attracted to. I was in love with my ex husband way before we "did it."

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2. Why do otherwise reasonable people equate sexuality with race as if it is an apples to apples comparison?

I have no clue.

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3. How is heterosexuality any more or less of a choice than homosexuality?

Sexuality is sexuality. The object of one's affection doesn't change whatever caused the attraction and orientation.

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4. Why does it seem like people want to caste sexuality as a lifestyle as opposed to a personal and usually private behavior practiced by consenting adults?

I have no idea whatsoever. Why anyone thinks it's their business is completely baffling to me.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2011, 11:49:03 AM »
I have a better question: Why does everyone seem to forget that there are four "sides" to sexuality[1] and only refer to two[2]?
 1. Heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual and asexual.
 2. Heterosexual and homosexual.

Hence "mainly".  Nothing is ever precisely equal in nature.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2011, 11:50:31 AM »
I have a better question: Why does everyone seem to forget that there are four "sides" to sexuality[1] and only refer to two[2]?
 1. Heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual and asexual.
 2. Heterosexual and homosexual.

Hence "mainly".  Nothing is ever precisely equal in nature.

I wasn't referring to your post because, as you said, you said "mainly". I'm talking about everyone who assumes that if you're not heterosexual, you're homosexual.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2011, 11:59:39 AM »
As I understand it, "born gay" refers to whether someone will end up mainly being sexually attracted to the same gender, or to the opposite gender.  The point being that it is not a deliberate choice to like one gender over the other.

If you disagree, then when did you make the conscious choice to start being attracted to the gender that you like?

Got it, so instead of saying "I was born gay or I was born straight," individuals would do better saying that they as individuals are most naturally attracted to either men or to women.

I would agree that choosing the sex to whom one is attracted is very likely in most instances not a conscious or deliberate choice. In fact I believe such "dispositioning" of an individual occurs at a very young age (before age 2) and is influenced by both internal and external or environmental factors.
For me, I made the conscious choice to start liking girls back in the 2nd grade, prior to that I was I guess, asexual. 8)


Lucifer
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I have a better question: Why does everyone seem to forget that there are four "sides" to sexuality[1] and only refer to two[2]?

Because it's easy to be lazy Luc! Seriously, I would guess the answer is because asexuality is basically considerated as irrelevant and bisexuality is often lumped in with being gay as being gay is viewed a bit like pregnancy in that one cannot be a little pregnant. Either you are or you aren't.

Offline One Above All

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2011, 12:03:46 PM »
<snip>
and bisexuality is often lumped in with being gay as being gay is viewed a bit like pregnancy in that one cannot be a little pregnant. Either you are or you aren't.

Bisexuality is not the same as being "a little gay", but I understand why some people would think that way.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline plethora

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2011, 12:06:53 PM »
As I read the above quote in another thread and it made me want to ask why anyone believes that sexuality is anything but a personal choice. Maybe I am missing something, but saying that someone is born gay or even born straight is a lot like saying that people are born into sin. How does "Original Sexuality" sound anymore reasonable to someone than does "Original Sin?"

First off ... it's not the same. "Sin" doesn't exist. It's a religious construct. Sexual orientation does exist. Sin is not a preference. Sexual orientation is a preference.

So "born in sin" and "born gay" are completely different things.

About choice ... think of something you really like. A type of food or a music genre, for example. A color. A taste. A smell. Did you make a deliberate choice to like these things? No, you did not.

Fact is, a person's sexual orientation is determined by their natural "configuration" which they have no hand in. It's not a personal choice. It's a preference imposed to us by nature.

Quote
1. If you are a virgin, how can you be considered either gay or straight?

Having had sex is not a requirement to determine a person's sexual orientation.

I knew I was straight when I was a virgin because I was attracted only to women. I have only ever been attracted to women.

If I get ass raped tomorrow by a dude, that won't suddenly make me gay. I'll still be straight.

If a straight guy let's another guy ass fuck him for money, that doesn't make the straight guy gay either.

... and I should mention that there's a false dichotomy here as there are more than 2 types of sexual orientation. In broad terms you have Gay, Straight, Bisexual and Asexual... to varying degrees of course. There are probably other sexual orientations to consider (i.e. pedophiles) but there's no need to list everything. Just sayin' there's more than 2.

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2. Why do otherwise reasonable people equate sexuality with race as if it is an apples to apples comparison?

You don't get to chose your race... you don't get to chose your sexual orientation. They both occupy a large portion of a person's self-identity and perceived identity by others. That's about as much as I would 'equate' them.

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3. How is heterosexuality any more or less of a choice than homosexuality?

Neither of them is a choice.

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4. Why does it seem like people want to caste sexuality as a lifestyle as opposed to a personal and usually private behavior practiced by consenting adults?

Because they're asstards who project their stupid ideas onto others.
The truth doesn't give a shit about our feelings.

Offline albeto

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2011, 12:18:40 PM »
As I read the above quote in another thread and it made me want to ask why anyone believes that sexuality is anything but a personal choice. Maybe I am missing something, but saying that someone is born gay or even born straight is a lot like saying that people are born into sin. How does "Original Sexuality" sound anymore reasonable to someone than does "Original Sin?"

ToT, I have three children, one of which has Asperger's Syndrome, a mild expression of autism.  As a condition it was identified in the 1940's by an Austrian named Hans Asperger.  At the same time, the diagnosis of autism was being formalized.  The problem was, because of the war, these two doctors didn't know about each other's research and lots of time was lost.  Asperger's Syndrome was noted again in the 1990's and since that time, the community who is made up of and works with people on the autistic spectrum have been very busy promoting information about this particular condition.  We've made great advances with public policy, legal rights, humanitarian expectations.  Gone are the days when a parent is told to kiss their retarded child goodbye and send them to an asylum and get on with their lives.  Instead, research is constantly undergone to determine the minutest of details in hopes that the more we can chip away at the biology of the condition, the more we can help those who suffer.  Part of doing this is through public awareness, letting the public who are ignorant of the autistic condition know that a child with autism doesn't *choose* to be naughty.  There is a real, identifiable, physiological explanation to this condition, even if we don't yet know the details of the mechanics.  This is a far cry from the days where mothers like me were accused of creating this condition by withholding love from the child.  "Refrigerator Mothers" we were called, because we must have been so cold to ignore the needs of a child, thereby causing them to be autistic.  Nothing could be further from the truth and until the truth gets out there, our kids and loved ones will suffer unjustly for the crimes against social expectations they simply don't commit. 

Sexual orientation is on the same path today.  With the work of some very courageous martyrs to the faith, people are working both in the biological field extracting as much information as they can as people in the public arena force the rest of us to accept the fact that what we think is steeped in ignorance and fuels aggressive reactions by inspiring contempt and fear.  But the basic premise is the same and we get to watch it (and participate if we can) unfold.  Homosexuality is but one of the many developments for sexual identity and orientation to which one naturally evolves.  By naturally I mean exactly that - it is in their nature, in their physiological construct to adopt attraction to certain stimuli in the sexual arena.  The environment can and certainly does contribute to this and perhaps its influence is stronger than we understand, but we do know that there is a measure of natural attraction that does not wait for the approval of the rest of the mind.  This is simply the facts as we uncover the mystery, facts exposed by careful, scientific, logical research. 

Here are some questions I have.

1. If you are a virgin, how can you be considered either gay or straight?

By virtue of what stimuli produces sexual arousal. 

2. Why do otherwise reasonable people equate sexuality with race as if it is an apples to apples comparison?

Because, like race and like autism, it's not the choice of the individual to be attracted to certain stimuli sexually.  We can condition a person to be attracted to certain morphological conditions. For example, in our culture women who are considered attractive generally have full hair, symmetrical faces, healthy bodies, etc.  Consider the juxtaposition of this against women in Elizabethan era when women plucked the hair on their forehead to give them a very large forehead, being pasty white was so fashionable women would use toxic make up to apply to their faces to look nearly sickly on purpose, and being fit, like being tan, meant one had the unfortunate birth of a laborer so a little meat on the bones was far more preferable to the shape we tend to appreciate today.  These are of course conditioned attractions.  A man today is not likely to find Jessica Alba dressed in Elizabethan fashion to be nearly as attractive as she is when in today's style.  Black women are more likely to get modelling and actress jobs when their physical features look more European.  This is conditioned by our environment without a doubt, but the basic attraction to gender doesn't work like this.  You'd have to do a lot of conditioning from a very early age to do this and that simply doesn't apply to people who grow up in safe, nurturing environments and identify as gay (or bi or transgender).   

3. How is heterosexuality any more or less of a choice than homosexuality?

If you're heterosexual, you'll know that being attracted to the opposite sex isn't a choice - it's a response.   

Oh, I think you're asking for the general stereotype.  I think because most people are naturally heterosexual, and people generally assume their beliefs are universal, they assume people are heterosexual naturally.  It's the same within the autistic community.  Most people have kids who are generally compliant.  They see kids like mine, too old to have a meltdown in public, and assume the blame belongs to me rather than assume there's a logical reason a child of that age is reaction in the way he is. 

4. Why does it seem like people want to caste sexuality as a lifestyle as opposed to a personal and usually private behavior practiced by consenting adults?

That's the million dollar question and goes to the other conversation, should we eliminate religion?  Religious beliefs are the *only* reason sexual identity is relegated to a second-class citizen status.  Arguably, the early Hebrew community made such laws against homosexuality because being a small cult among other religions, they couldn't afford to allow any sexual energy be released without the benefit of a child to give strength to the next generation.  Perhaps natural disdain for things weaker explains misogyny in general and homosexuality is likened to acting "like a woman" which is contemptuous to those who believe masculine traits are superior on a hierarchy of value.  I think it's like autism - it looks different, it's not what the majority of the society are accustomed to and it's been taught for so long that it's "wrong" and that God's wrath is so bad, no one wants to take the chance of possibly pissing off the god of natural disasters and personal fortune.  A generally private relationship affects the entire community if you're of the opinion that any Abrahamic religious idea has credence.  Society can't afford to let a private sin punish everyone. 
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 12:20:30 PM by albeto »

Offline Nick

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2011, 12:29:12 PM »
Gee, in an earlier thread some preacher said you were gay if you masterbated.  So you could be a virgin and gay or straight.

Being gay or straight is not a choice.  No one wakes up one day and says, "I think I'll be straight".  Look at the history of gay.  Some countries still give you the death penality for it.  Why would anyone choose that if they had a choice?

Religious people have to say that to justify their actions towards gay people.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 12:46:27 PM »
albeto
Quote
If you're heterosexual (homo, bi, a, etc.), you'll know that being attracted to the opposite sex isn't a choice - it's a response.

No argument here. My contention is not with what one finds appealing or what one is most naturally or initially attracted to, but rather the ACT of responding to that attraction. I believe that we may do well to caste people based on their actions and specified intent as opposed to their orientation if for no other reason than that of the fact that people have exhibited the ability to change and/or control their sexual behavior. The response is where the choice comes in and unfortunately in the world we live in we are often forced to have to exercise far too much discipline as it relates to how we respond to stimuli. Nudity, PDA, as well as same-sex pairing is often frowned upon and perhaps unfairly legislated against (except public nudity, call me hypocritical, but cover yo' nasty, flabby, nekid azz up in public, don't nobody wanna see that!).
« Last Edit: December 07, 2011, 01:20:15 PM by Truth OT »

Offline Hatter23

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 12:58:13 PM »
or straight, or sinful, etc............... (I was gonna title this thread human sexuality, but I decided upon this title instead beacuse I thought it would be more of an attention grabber).
Sorry kcrady for using your words to start a thread w/o your permission, but they sparked back to life a dormant thought at rest in my mind.

The people on the other side of the gay rights issue think homosexuality is "an opinion and/or a thought," i.e., a choice, and if gays would only accept Jesus as their personal Lord an' Savior, why, they could be good heterosexuals like the rest of us.

 As I read the above quote in another thread and it made me want to ask why anyone believes that sexuality is anything but a personal choice. Maybe I am missing something, but saying that someone is born gay or even born straight is a lot like saying that people are born into sin. How does "Original Sexuality" sound anymore reasonable to someone than does "Original Sin?"

Here are some questions I have.

1. If you are a virgin, how can you be considered either gay or straight?
2. Why do otherwise reasonable people equate sexuality with race as if it is an apples to apples comparison?
3. How is heterosexuality any more or less of a choice than homosexuality?
4. Why does it seem like people want to caste sexuality as a lifestyle as opposed to a personal and usually private behavior practiced by consenting adults?


Actually it isn't as clear cut as gay advocacy groups or fundamentalists like to make it out as.  Sexulaity is multfaceted. One can be non-sexual, 0%, to being obsessed with sex 100%. One can have an ovewhelming preference for the opposite sex, to having an overwhelming preference for the same sex, or even roughly equal attraction to either. Ones sexual perferences are influnce by genes(genotype) and the enviromental factors that interact with those genes(phenotype) When someone is in a "grey" area as to preference on could may a concious choice to try and suppress one's attraction for the same...or even the opposite sex.

Nobody, neither the fundementalist or the Gay advocacy group member wants to admit to all of this, because it is "fodder for the opposition" However, it is often redily apparent what a persons preferences are going to be to those that look for the signs, before the person themselves has developed an awareness of their own sexuality.

So as to your questions:
1: Attraction generally predates acting on that attraction. That one is simple.
2: Because sexuality is so deeply unconcious and gut and gene driven, it is closer to race than one's preference for light or dark clothes. Think about the number of people who would call themselves "black" in the mid-east coast of the US who are named Butler or Lee. If they have one of those names they are likely to be, in part, related to the Siamese twins. However, that area of the world formerly known as Siam is now know as Thailand. Some of the racial diversity of Thailand, including the Lee brothes include hill tribe and some Chinese. Some of the Lees and Butlers will have minor expressions of oriental features. Some have married and have had children with Vietnamese after the Vietnamese war.
So after hearing all of this, thing of one of those offspring...can you easily describe their race to be at least in part, a social construct..but not purely genetic. That child might embrace any of their diverse heritage, but there gene's will show in their face and will affect how people treat them.

That is why race is actually a pretty good analogy to sexuality.

3:It isn't
4: Because having alternate sexuality has been "ghettoized" in western culture...to the point it has developed its own sense of counter culture.



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Offline albeto

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 01:00:12 PM »
No argument here. My contention is not with what one finds appealing or what one is most naturally or initially attracted to, but rather the ACT of responding to that attraction. I believe that we may do well to caste people based on their actions and specified intent as opposed to their orientation if for no other reason than that of the fact that people have exibited the ability to change and/or control their sexual behavior.

People conform to social expectations when they infringe on the liberties of others.  We don't allow people to walk into homes and randomly take stuff because that infringes on the liberties of those people who live in that home and own that stuff.  But whose liberties are being compromised by LGBT behavior? 

Offline velkyn

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 01:04:00 PM »
No argument here. My contention is not with what one finds appealing or what one is most naturally or initially attracted to, but rather the ACT of responding to that attraction. I believe that we may do well to caste people based on their actions and specified intent as opposed to their orientation if for no other reason than that of the fact that people have exibited the ability to change and/or control their sexual behavior.

can a self-identified gay man fuck a woman, you betcha but that certainly doesn't change what they feel or are.  It seems this is another version of someone who is afraid of homosexuality saying it's okay as long as no one actually acts as they are.
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Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 01:15:48 PM »
No argument here. My contention is not with what one finds appealing or what one is most naturally or initially attracted to, but rather the ACT of responding to that attraction. I believe that we may do well to caste people based on their actions and specified intent as opposed to their orientation if for no other reason than that of the fact that people have exibited the ability to change and/or control their sexual behavior.

People conform to social expectations when they infringe on the liberties of others.  We don't allow people to walk into homes and randomly take stuff because that infringes on the liberties of those people who live in that home and own that stuff.  But whose liberties are being compromised by LGBT behavior?

To answer your question, I have to say that I don't see how gays or lesbians compromise anyone's liberties. Additional, I see no reason their liberties should be compromised either.

I don't quite fully understand the point of your reply though.

Offline albeto

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 01:18:02 PM »
No argument here. My contention is not with what one finds appealing or what one is most naturally or initially attracted to, but rather the ACT of responding to that attraction. I believe that we may do well to caste people based on their actions and specified intent as opposed to their orientation if for no other reason than that of the fact that people have exibited the ability to change and/or control their sexual behavior.

People conform to social expectations when they infringe on the liberties of others.  We don't allow people to walk into homes and randomly take stuff because that infringes on the liberties of those people who live in that home and own that stuff.  But whose liberties are being compromised by LGBT behavior?

To answer your question, I have to say that I don't see how gays or lesbians compromise anyone's liberties. Additional, I see no reason their liberties should be compromised either.

I don't quite fully understand the point of your reply though.

Velkyn gets to the point much faster than I:  Why ask the LGBT community to change their behavior?  What's the point if not to appease religious fears? 

Why not ask blacks to sit in the back of the bus still because that darn Curse of Ham freaks the rest of us "normal" folk out? 

See what I mean? 

Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2011, 01:18:46 PM »
can a self-identified gay man fuck a woman, you betcha but that certainly doesn't change what they feel or are.  It seems this is another version of someone who is afraid of homosexuality saying it's okay as long as no one actually acts as they are.

Can a self-indentified straight man have sex with another man? You bet your ass they can! The fact is that no matter what the self-indentification is, the act takes presidence over it. What one feels is often not equivalent to what is or what one does......

Online Azdgari

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2011, 01:27:14 PM »
People self-identify more with what they think and feel than with what they do, no?

Labels are tools.  Labels based on peoples' thoughts and feelings are useful for reflecting those peoples' self-identities, and for predicting future behaviour.  Labels based strictly on actions are far less effective at the former, and in this case, less effective at the latter.

What goal do you have in mind for your method of labelling, TOT?
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Offline Alzael

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2011, 01:32:41 PM »

Can a self-indentified straight man have sex with another man? You bet your ass they can! The fact is that no matter what the self-indentification is, the act takes presidence over it. What one feels is often not equivalent to what is or what one does......

Our sexuality is defined by what we feel. Homo/Hetero/Bi/Asexual are defined by our feelings of attractions to the various sexes. It is what those words mean. If you want to define them by who they actually have sex with, you're free to make up your own terms if it pleases you.
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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2011, 01:39:17 PM »
Can a self-indentified straight man have sex with another man? You bet your ass they can! The fact is that no matter what the self-indentification is, the act takes presidence over it. What one feels is often not equivalent to what is or what one does......

So, if I go to church I'm a christian?

Of course not. What's important is what I feel, believe, and know about myself. Those things don't change just because I'm sitting in a pew. Likewise, a gay person might go their whole lives without having sex. It doesn't make their orientation any different. Sexual activity between men in jail is very, very high. But you get them out of that artificial environment and they go back to whatever their natural orientation is. Now, if you're trying to say that the act means the man was in the closet, and was gay all along, of course that happens too. But that's someone in denial, not necessarily the general case.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2011, 01:49:45 PM »
To answer your question, I have to say that I don't see how gays or lesbians compromise anyone's liberties. Additional, I see no reason their liberties should be compromised either.

I don't quite fully understand the point of your reply though.

Velkyn gets to the point much faster than I:  Why ask the LGBT community to change their behavior?  What's the point if not to appease religious fears? 

Why not ask blacks to sit in the back of the bus still because that darn Curse of Ham freaks the rest of us "normal" folk out? 

See what I mean?

I said this earlier:
My contention is not with what one finds appealing or what one is most naturally or initially attracted to, but rather the ACT of responding to that attraction. I believe that we may do well to caste people based on their actions and specified intent as opposed to their orientation if for no other reason than that of the fact that people have exhibited the ability to change and/or control their sexual behavior.

It appears you have not fully gotten the message I was trying to convey. I was simply putting forth the idea of not classifying ANYONE as straight, gay, etc, without them first acting in such capacities. Though sexual desire acts as a strong impetus, it is not the sole factor in determining sexual behavior and one's sexual behavior should take presidence over one's sexual desire/orientation. Whatever that behavior is, provided it harms no one else and is undertaken by consenting adults, it should be left alone and treated as the sole business of the consenting individuals and their other partners if such parties exist.

I was by no means singling out any community over others asking them to change their behavior. I simply stated that classifying based on orientation is faulty due to the fact that people do not allows behave in accordance with their orientation/base desires and additionally, people oftentimes do not even reveal what that orientation is.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2011, 01:52:16 PM »
What goal do you have in mind for your method of labelling, TOT?

More fairness, objectivity, and better accuracy as it relates to our (society's) apparent need to classify and place people in boxes.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2011, 01:54:15 PM »

Can a self-indentified straight man have sex with another man? You bet your ass they can! The fact is that no matter what the self-indentification is, the act takes presidence over it. What one feels is often not equivalent to what is or what one does......

Our sexuality is defined by what we feel. Homo/Hetero/Bi/Asexual are defined by our feelings of attractions to the various sexes. It is what those words mean. If you want to define them by who they actually have sex with, you're free to make up your own terms if it pleases you.

It seems to be a matter of symantics then.
Is it better to define our sexuality by our feelings than by our actions?

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2011, 02:03:11 PM »
More fairness,

Excluding peoples' thoughts and feelings from consideration when labelling them is more fair?

objectivity,

Objectivity in determining what?

and better accuracy as it relates to our (society's) apparent need to classify and place people in boxes.

Better accuracy of what?  This last part doesn't make sense as stated.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2011, 02:03:20 PM »
So, if I go to church I'm a christian?

Of course not. What's important is what I feel, believe, and know about myself. Those things don't change just because I'm sitting in a pew. Likewise, a gay person might go their whole lives without having sex. It doesn't make their orientation any different. Sexual activity between men in jail is very, very high. But you get them out of that artificial environment and they go back to whatever their natural orientation is. Now, if you're trying to say that the act means the man was in the closet, and was gay all along, of course that happens too. But that's someone in denial, not necessarily the general case.

I don't get why this line of reasoning is so popular. How is what I feel more relevant or important than what I do?

I would argue that if person A consistantly does good deeds, then person A is then a good person. As who we are (in my estimation), is primarily the product of what we do and how we feel is a much smaller indicator of who we are (though it is still an indicator, but moreso of who we'd like to be or our delused and biased perceptions of ourselves than who we actually are).

In the example above about the gay person that never engaged in sexual activity (we're getting into semantics, I hate semantics), I wouldn't call them gay. Instead the proper classification would be asexual as in such a scenario that person's sexuality would be virtually nonexistant and have very little if any relevance.

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2011, 02:04:19 PM »
Is it better to define our sexuality by our feelings than by our actions?

The former is better if the goal is to identify people based on how they identify themselves.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

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Re: No One Is Born Gay!!!!
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2011, 02:07:29 PM »
What goal do you have in mind for your method of labelling, TOT?

Specifically, my method of labeling has to do with judging/classifying people primarily by what they do as opposed to judging them based on what could be our flawed perception of who they may be or even judging them by their own often biased and self-serving personal thoughts and feelings.