Author Topic: The Fabric of the Cosmos  (Read 1421 times)

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Offline Chronos

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The Fabric of the Cosmos
« on: December 07, 2011, 06:52:45 AM »
I mentioned one episode of Brian Greene's work in another thread, but now that the entire series has been posted on PBS, anyone can watch the episodes for free. It's an excellent series and it is presented in a way for even the average person to understand. If you want to know what quantum physics is about, this is a great way to learn it.

The Fabric of the Cosmos

Quote
Join Brian Greene on a wild ride into the weird realm of quantum physics, which governs the universe on the tiniest of scales. Greene brings quantum mechanics to life in a nightclub like no other, where objects pop in and out of existence, and things over here can affect others over there, instantaneously and without anything crossing the space between them.

...

Part 1: What is Space?
Part 2: The Illusion of Time
Part 3: Quantum Leap
Part 4: Universe or Multiverse

^ Once you go to the main web page, just click on an episode tab and you will see a Watch Now button on the far right.

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Offline relativetruth

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2011, 09:39:02 AM »
I have just started looking at your linked website and reading about spacetime.

To discover that by just sitting on my butt doing nothing I am actually travelling through time at light speed is .... !! :o

I better get on trying to achieve something in my life!
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Offline Irish

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2011, 01:28:37 AM »
To discover that by just sitting on my butt doing nothing I am actually travelling through time at light speed is .... !! :o

I truly do not understand physics.  My mind =  :o [blown]
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Offline jtp56

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2011, 10:01:20 PM »
Ya know, I didn't link to your guy Greene.  I take it you guys believe what you read or what you see in video's, or of people that you think are smarter than you, or have the same world view as you.  I may be wrong.  Anyway, this is my theory, prove me wrong! I digress.

I want you all to name who is smarter than you?  Hawking? Greene? Eisenstein? Al Gore?

Who is smarter than you?  Who do you believe?

Evolution proves some are smarter than others, correct?

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline wright

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2011, 10:47:36 PM »
Ya know, I didn't link to your guy Greene.  I take it you guys believe what you read or what you see in video's, or of people that you think are smarter than you, or have the same world view as you.  I may be wrong.  Anyway, this is my theory, prove me wrong! I digress.

I want you all to name who is smarter than you?  Hawking? Greene? Eisenstein? Al Gore?

Who is smarter than you?  Who do you believe?

Evolution proves some are smarter than others, correct?



For one, define "smarter". Do you mean better at advanced math, better at debating, more accomplished in general, higher IQ?

And believe them (those three you named) about what, exactly?

There are regulars here who have a better grasp of evolutionary theory (smarter, or at least better-informed) than I, so I welcome their correction of the following: evolution predicts that some organisms will be better at surviving and reproducing than others.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline jtp56

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2011, 11:37:02 PM »
Ya know, I didn't link to your guy Greene.  I take it you guys believe what you read or what you see in video's, or of people that you think are smarter than you, or have the same world view as you.  I may be wrong.  Anyway, this is my theory, prove me wrong! I digress.

I want you all to name who is smarter than you?  Hawking? Greene? Eisenstein? Al Gore?

Who is smarter than you?  Who do you believe?

Evolution proves some are smarter than others, correct?



For one, define "smarter". Do you mean better at advanced math, better at debating, more accomplished in general, higher IQ?

And believe them (those three you named) about what, exactly?

There are regulars here who have a better grasp of evolutionary theory (smarter, or at least better-informed) than I, so I welcome their correction of the following: evolution predicts that some organisms will be better at surviving and reproducing than others.

So you agree, "There are regulars here who have a better grasp of evolutionary theory (smarter, or at least better-informed) than I"

Where does that leave you on the evolutionary scale? 
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2011, 11:44:31 PM »
Should those who have a better understanding of evolution and science and are geniuses be in charge of everything and determine who should breed?  To further understanding (since it did evolve).  I mean, they are geniuses and understand everything right?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline wright

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2011, 11:58:20 PM »


Evolution proves some are smarter than others, correct?



For one, define "smarter". Do you mean better at advanced math, better at debating, more accomplished in general, higher IQ?

And believe them (those three you named) about what, exactly?

There are regulars here who have a better grasp of evolutionary theory (smarter, or at least better-informed) than I, so I welcome their correction of the following: evolution predicts that some organisms will be better at surviving and reproducing than others.

So you agree, "There are regulars here who have a better grasp of evolutionary theory (smarter, or at least better-informed) than I"

Where does that leave you on the evolutionary scale? 

Smarter in the sense of knowing more about evolution and biological science than I, sure. But unless those folks are secretly the X-Men, that leaves me on the same place on the evolutionary scale as them.

Back on topic: that's a fascinating series, Chronos. I'll be taking a look at it.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Irish

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2011, 12:04:20 AM »
Back on topic: that's a fascinating series, Chronos. I'll be taking a look at it.

Agree. I see this turning into a pissing contest.

Also, if anyone wants to own the series it's out on DVD.  Not sure about Blu-Ray.
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline relativetruth

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2011, 02:23:25 AM »
Should those who have a better understanding of evolution and science and are geniuses be in charge of everything and determine who should breed?  To further understanding (since it did evolve).  I mean, they are geniuses and understand everything right?

Evolution does not necessarily produce smarter people.

One could argue that the really bright scientists are not breeding as much because they too busy working whereas on the hand stupider pro-life theists produce a lot more offspring so the worlds average IQ might actually be going down  :)

If you forced geniuses to only mate with other geniuses you would be reducing the gene pool of that elite set which would dramatically increase the risk of defects a few generations further down the line.
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Offline jtp56

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2011, 02:30:46 AM »


Evolution proves some are smarter than others, correct?

For one, define "smarter". Do you mean better at advanced math, better at debating, more accomplished in general, higher IQ?

And believe them (those three you named) about what, exactly?

There are regulars here who have a better grasp of evolutionary theory (smarter, or at least better-informed) than I, so I welcome their correction of the following: evolution predicts that some organisms will be better at surviving and reproducing than others.

So you agree, "There are regulars here who have a better grasp of evolutionary theory (smarter, or at least better-informed) than I"

Where does that leave you on the evolutionary scale? 

Smarter in the sense of knowing more about evolution and biological science than I, sure. But unless those folks are secretly the X-Men, that leaves me on the same place on the evolutionary scale as them.

Back on topic: that's a fascinating series, Chronos. I'll be taking a look at it.

X-men...Cracks me up.  Patrick Stewart narrates at the beginning of those movies that "every millennium or so...", that is: a catastrophic jump in evolution, which, is one theory that blasts your uniform steady state of evolution out of the water (held by many of your guys, man I wish you could all agree on one theory as to where we came from).   

And I take it your are agreeing that there are "scientists" and others smarter than you.  Where does that leave you?  I take it you haven't followed the "evolution" of evolution science through the last 100 years or so.  Ahhh, but history isn't science...right?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2011, 02:33:11 AM »
Should those who have a better understanding of evolution and science and are geniuses be in charge of everything and determine who should breed?  To further understanding (since it did evolve).  I mean, they are geniuses and understand everything right?

Evolution does not necessarily produce smarter people.

One could argue that the really bright scientists are not breeding as much because they too busy working whereas on the hand stupider pro-life theists produce a lot more offspring so the worlds average IQ might actually be going down  :)

If you forced geniuses to only mate with other geniuses you would be reducing the gene pool of that elite set which would dramatically increase the risk of defects a few generations further down the line.

Are you f#%#&$^ serious????
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline relativetruth

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2011, 02:42:53 AM »
Should those who have a better understanding of evolution and science and are geniuses be in charge of everything and determine who should breed?  To further understanding (since it did evolve).  I mean, they are geniuses and understand everything right?

Evolution does not necessarily produce smarter people.

One could argue that the really bright scientists are not breeding as much because they too busy working whereas on the hand stupider pro-life theists produce a lot more offspring so the worlds average IQ might actually be going down  :)

If you forced geniuses to only mate with other geniuses you would be reducing the gene pool of that elite set which would dramatically increase the risk of defects a few generations further down the line.

Are you f#%#&$^ serious????

Which bit are you confused about?
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Offline Chronos

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2011, 08:00:56 AM »
jtp56,

If you want to engage in specific criticism of atheists and science, then create your own thread for it and be prepared to engage us with intelligent discussion. If you wish to watch the series by Brian Greene and then discuss the subject, then that is what this thread is for.

Chronos


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Offline velkyn

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2011, 11:16:27 AM »
Are you f#%#&$^ serious????

one more willfully ignorant Christian hypocrite. 

I did like that show, what parts I caught.  Sometimes i do think that shows like this don't go enough into the difference between observer and observed enough, especially when it gets to relativity and some of the supposed effects like time travel.  IF someone is going twice the speed of light and is crossing say a 100 parsecs, they will get there twice as fast as someone going the speed of light, they won't jump in time/the sequence of events, as far as I can tell, which doesn't seem to be what that "loaf" analogy was showing.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2011, 12:30:55 PM »
...man I wish you could all agree on one theory as to where we came from...

Once more, with feeling. Evolution is not the theory of where we came from. It's the theory (with tons of evidence to back it up) of how we change over time.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/evolution

As for where we came from originally, there are many hypotheses, one of the most recent is that of abiogenesis. Abiogenesis is a hypothesis (as opposed to a theory) which means that its been proposed, and is being investigated. But it does not have the evidence behind it that a theory has.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/abiogenesis
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Offline relativetruth

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2011, 01:07:53 PM »
Chronos,
 
I would just like to point out that here in the UK, to my supreme frustration, I have never been able to view the videos linked in the OP. I have tried All browsers on three different computers but still I get the message
Quote
'We are experiencing technical difficulties that are preventing us from playing the video at this time. Please check back again soon.'
I am able to view other material from this website which I find utterly fascinating.

Of course , I don't blame you personally but I think you should at least take a neutrinos worth of responsibility for the Universe's prejudice, contravening my World Citizen rights, in stopping me enlightening myself to Greene's insights.

There..
 I feel better now.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #17 on: December 09, 2011, 08:11:33 PM »
I did like that show, what parts I caught.  Sometimes i do think that shows like this don't go enough into the difference between observer and observed enough, especially when it gets to relativity and some of the supposed effects like time travel.  IF someone is going twice the speed of light and is crossing say a 100 parsecs, they will get there twice as fast as someone going the speed of light, they won't jump in time/the sequence of events, as far as I can tell, which doesn't seem to be what that "loaf" analogy was showing.

I watched that particular episode 3 times to catch what he is explaining, not to mention that I've read a couple of his previous books, and two of Hawkings ... all regarding "time".

I believe the loaf was to represent that both the man at the gas station and the alien on the bicycle are only on the same time line when they are standing still. Once either one is in motion, they are both on different time lines -- meaning they both will have different futures, not merely the same future at different times. In your example, each person would end up in a different future -- a different reality. While each person may play a role in both realities, each is a slightly different person. This is where general relativity and quantum mechanics clash -- we see (visually) a different time from a different place because of the distance between us, but quantum mechanics shows that different time lines aren't likely separated by such distances but are statistical probabilities melded together into one. Perhaps each and every action (not just human actions but all particle actions) creates multiple time lines because we can only determine where a particle is likely to be, but it seems to be in all locations at the same time.

The idea of time and reality blows my mind. We experience the world on one time line and we aren't well-prepared to accept or understand the likelihood of multiple time lines and realities (or multiverses).

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Offline Chronos

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2011, 08:23:00 PM »
I would just like to point out that here in the UK, to my supreme frustration, I have never been able to view the videos linked in the OP. I have tried All browsers on three different computers but still I get the message
Quote
'We are experiencing technical difficulties that are preventing us from playing the video at this time. Please check back again soon.'
I am able to view other material from this website which I find utterly fascinating.

Of course , I don't blame you personally but I think you should at least take a neutrinos worth of responsibility for the Universe's prejudice, contravening my World Citizen rights, in stopping me enlightening myself to Greene's insights.

The series was shown on our Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) which I thought would be viewable in all countries. At least not getting a copyright violation is hopeful.


Are you able to view these videos?

What is Space?


The Illusion of Time


Quantum Leap


Universe or Multiverse?

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline relativetruth

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2011, 06:27:25 AM »
Thanks Chronos the youtube links work perfectly

Cheers
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Offline velkyn

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #20 on: December 12, 2011, 08:28:50 AM »
I watched that particular episode 3 times to catch what he is explaining, not to mention that I've read a couple of his previous books, and two of Hawkings ... all regarding "time".

I believe the loaf was to represent that both the man at the gas station and the alien on the bicycle are only on the same time line when they are standing still. Once either one is in motion, they are both on different time lines -- meaning they both will have different futures, not merely the same future at different times. In your example, each person would end up in a different future -- a different reality. While each person may play a role in both realities, each is a slightly different person. This is where general relativity and quantum mechanics clash -- we see (visually) a different time from a different place because of the distance between us, but quantum mechanics shows that different time lines aren't likely separated by such distances but are statistical probabilities melded together into one. Perhaps each and every action (not just human actions but all particle actions) creates multiple time lines because we can only determine where a particle is likely to be, but it seems to be in all locations at the same time.
I don't see that happening in my example.  The idea of different realities is interesting but doesn't work when we have cause and effect.  *If* gravity is working on everything at all times, albeit infinitesimally, then I would think that there can't be different realities, my actions will influence your future and yours mine.  There can be different subjective observation but not different factual realities.   
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #21 on: December 12, 2011, 08:36:43 AM »
I can't say I understand this but...

There is apparently a difference between relative velocity time dilation and gravitational time dilation.

Using the car example, the clock appears to be correct to the person in the car and appears to be correct to the person on the street, but  there is a difference in time between the two.

If there are two clocks in space with one closer to a gravitational "pull" they are different times and each can be aware of the difference.

But maybe we are not talking about the same thing.
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Offline velkyn

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #22 on: December 12, 2011, 09:22:08 AM »
I dont' think quite.  I'm talking about cause and effect rather than "time", and if my actions cause an effect that affects you, we can' t be in two different realities.  That's just my take on things.
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Offline monkeymind

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2011, 09:32:45 AM »
Yeah, I see what you are saying. I don't see how there can be  two different realities.

Although anything that I do that affects you, probably must have an effect on space and therefore time.

ADDED: I think the problem is the loaf of bread is in three dimensions and I don't know how one describes 4 dimensions (which includes time) in this way.


« Last Edit: December 12, 2011, 09:43:12 AM by monkeymind »
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline Chronos

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #24 on: December 12, 2011, 06:39:57 PM »
I don't see that happening in my example.  The idea of different realities is interesting but doesn't work when we have cause and effect. 

I'm not sure to which cause and effect you are referring.


If* gravity is working on everything at all times, albeit infinitesimally, then I would think that there can't be different realities, my actions will influence your future and yours mine.  There can be different subjective observation but not different factual realities.

It is because just one copy of you can only experience one reality. Other copies of you experience other realities. Each is unaware of the other, and each is slightly different. Each copy of you can experience different time lines.

Your actions may influence my future -- you might collide with me when you are going at such a reckless speed. However, you are only affecting one copy of me within the reality you experience. Another copy of me continues on in another reality unaware that anything happened because you arrived 3 seconds later, or maybe you never arrived at all, for example.

The loaf represents all of these possibilities as different realities.

While the concept of multiverses and multi-realities is as philosophical as it is controversial, Greene states that the mathematics behind  quantum physics supports the seemingly impossible set of multiple realities. In essence, we don't really know what time is. It certainly is a concept that moves forward only for us in this reality. In others, time might run backwards, or not at all.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline jtp56

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #25 on: December 12, 2011, 07:59:04 PM »
The discussions herein gives relevance to the argument that the universe is young, say, about 6000 years old.  Again, I did not watch the PBS special, but, by reading these threads it refreshes some of my studies/readings. 

Chronos says: "While the concept of multiverses and multi-realities is as philosophical as it is controversial, Greene states that the mathematics behind  quantum physics supports the seemingly impossible set of multiple realities. In essence, we don't really know what time is. It certainly is a concept that moves forward only for us in this reality. In others, time might run backwards, or not at all."

In "mathematics", you can integrate any formula to the nth polynomial or differential.  Does that make it workable?  Does that make it right? 

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline Chronos

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #26 on: December 12, 2011, 08:22:43 PM »
The discussions herein gives relevance to the argument that the universe is young, say, about 6000 years old.  Again, I did not watch the PBS special, but, by reading these threads it refreshes some of my studies/readings. 

Perhaps you should watch it since nothing in the series indicates that the universe is only 6,000 years old, or anywhere nearly that young.


In "mathematics", you can integrate any formula to the nth polynomial or differential.  Does that make it workable?  Does that make it right?

You don't even know the formulas about which you pretend to speak. I do not think that Brian Green, Alan Guth, Niels Bohr or Albert Einstein just pull mathematical equations out of the air and say that since it works it must be right and workable.

Your remark is meaningless.

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Offline jtp56

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2011, 08:54:40 PM »
The discussions herein gives relevance to the argument that the universe is young, say, about 6000 years old.  Again, I did not watch the PBS special, but, by reading these threads it refreshes some of my studies/readings. 

Perhaps you should watch it since nothing in the series indicates that the universe is only 6,000 years old, or anywhere nearly that young.


In "mathematics", you can integrate any formula to the nth polynomial or differential.  Does that make it workable?  Does that make it right?

You don't even know the formulas about which you pretend to speak. I do not think that Brian Green, Alan Guth, Niels Bohr or Albert Einstein just pull mathematical equations out of the air and say that since it works it must be right and workable.

Your remark is meaningless.

Think for yourself man!  Einstein knew his could be observed and tested.  And it doesn't matter who's math I'm talking about, Einstein's, Bohr's, Guth's, [enter genius here].

Can you integrate any of the above's math beyond where it is now? 

You yourself state: "While the concept of multiverses and multi-realities is as philosophical as it is controversial, Greene states that the mathematics behind  quantum physics supports the seemingly impossible set of multiple realities. In essence, we don't really know what time is. It certainly is a concept that moves forward only for us in this reality. In others, time might run backwards, or not at all."

And you reject me because of my beliefs are "controversial"?

Again I emphatically ask (Search Wiki, PBS, anything), Can you integrate any of today's math beyond where it is now?
Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Offline jtp56

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Re: The Fabric of the Cosmos
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2011, 09:16:14 PM »
And by the way, E=mc2 is a second degree polynomial if "c" is variable.  Integrate that with m being the variable (assuming c is constant) and you get?  Or is "c" variable?  What about "E"?

Does anyone here get my point?  It has to make sense.  E=mc2 makes sense!!

We can talk all day about..."the concept of multiverses and multi-realities is as philosophical as it is controversial"...blah, blah, blah.

But! There absolutely has to be no such thing as a creator!

Even your guys claim the scientific community can be "dogmatic".

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.