Author Topic: Religion of peace  (Read 914 times)

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Offline Star Stuff

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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2011, 11:58:47 AM »
Hi Star Stuff.

This story is a bit of a mess; the Huffington Post is sceptical:

Quote
Ukrainian officials have slammed media claims that a teenage beauty queen was stoned to death by three Muslim suspects who alleged the 19-year-old violated Sharia law by participating in pageants...

... though initial reports claimed Koren, like her assailants, was Muslim, officials like Q?r?mo?lu now say she is actually Christian with Russian roots. "The girl was not Muslim. All these [reports] are a provocation and fabricated news."

... Other authorities now believe Koren may have been killed by a psychologically troubled classmate, who robbed and possibly raped her before battering her to death with a rock.

I can't find any reports of a trial, either.

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2011, 12:04:27 PM »
Regardless, It's rare to have murderous crazy without a dash of god delusion somewhere.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline Aceluffy

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2011, 02:14:12 PM »
Such a waste.

I bet they left out the fact that those 3 youths raped her before they dumped her in the woods.
Sick people !!

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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2011, 03:22:11 PM »
But Shirley, if we complain about theists making shit up, we should try not to do likewise?

Not only do we forsake the moral high aground by doing so, but we also fuel the fire of Islamophobia by exaggerating the threat. And Islamophobia is possibly more dangerous than Islam.


Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2011, 01:19:13 AM »
And Islamophobia is possibly more dangerous than Islam.

At this point I don't think the west is afraid enough. Muslims are planning to take over the world, they make no secret about that, they repeatedly state it, and it's a mandate of the Koran, and it is slowly happening.
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Offline kin hell

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2011, 08:17:05 AM »
Such a waste.

I bet they left out the fact that those 3 youths raped her before they dumped her in the woods.
Sick people !!

All hail Allah !!

Regardless, It's rare to have murderous crazy without a dash of god delusion somewhere.

FFS  evidence please or retract.


EDIT having posted, I immediately saw your post Gnu
But Shirley, if we complain about theists making shit up, we should try not to do likewise?

Not only do we forsake the moral high aground by doing so, but we also fuel the fire of Islamophobia by exaggerating the threat.


...and I couldn't agree more.

Quote
And Islamophobia is possibly more dangerous than Islam.

...both are irrational enough to be scary


« Last Edit: December 11, 2011, 08:22:33 AM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2011, 08:54:57 AM »
And Islamophobia is possibly more dangerous than Islam.

At this point I don't think the west is afraid enough. Muslims are planning to take over the world, they make no secret about that, they repeatedly state it, and it's a mandate of the Koran, and it is slowly happening.

Do you think that if the majority of the population of western or asian countries became muslim that the nature of islam would also change?

The slow spread of that mythology would accomodate the slow change society inevitably has on the character of religious dogma. So, by the time Chinese folk were majority "muslim", being muslim would include a variety of chinese socio-political characteristics, and values, and would be completely different to what we label the behaviour now.

What do you think?

I think the idea is defensible in light of the historical facts of the religious component of cultural evolution.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2011, 03:49:36 PM »
And Islamophobia is possibly more dangerous than Islam.

At this point I don't think the west is afraid enough. Muslims are planning to take over the world, they make no secret about that, they repeatedly state it, and it's a mandate of the Koran, and it is slowly happening.
This is the mandate of all religions who view the single God theory
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Offline kin hell

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2011, 07:37:40 PM »
Such a waste.

I bet they left out the fact that those 3 youths raped her before they dumped her in the woods.
Sick people !!

All hail Allah !!

Regardless, It's rare to have murderous crazy without a dash of god delusion somewhere.

FFS  evidence please or retract.





You might think I'm some bastard pretending to be the forum police, but all I'm asking of you is to provide evidence or retract your generalisation.

Why am I asking for evidence?
Because that's what we do here. 

And why am I asking for you to retract your statement if you cannot provide evidence?
Because making claims that cannot be backed up is what the theists do, and as Gnu said, .....if we start doing it, we lose our position.

Why you should answer this instead of dodging?
Because that would be the simplest and most honourable method for a clean finish.
Just admit you made a generalisation that is not easily proven, and retract the statement.

Aceluffy  if you are still around perhaps you's be big enough to do the same.


« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 07:56:02 PM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Brakeman

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2011, 07:43:40 PM »
Why am I asking for evidence?
Because that's what we do here. 

OK, for statistical evidence, I'll search out the last five murderous rampages, and if at least four of them aren't connected in some way to a religious delusion I'll retract.. Sound fair?
Be Back in a minute..
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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2011, 08:01:06 PM »
1. Belgian Massacre - Muslim
2. Andre Watkins - NOT!
3. John Gillane - Not #2
4.Gianluca Casseri - Not #3
5. Scott Dekraai -  No # 4

Well, I admit I am surprised.. I thought it would be much closer than that..

I retract the statement ... and maybe learned something.
I think I was just overreacting to the many times I have read of massacres with religious overtones.. oh well.
Help find the cure for FUNDAMENTIA !

Offline kin hell

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2011, 08:10:12 PM »
EDIT LATE ADDITION Ha!!!   retraction hockey     we're both been pucked by stats (and timing)   OK Brakeman   very stylish retraction   and I thank you for it    Now I'm really left wondering what the long term stats actually show


Why am I asking for evidence?
Because that's what we do here. 

OK, for statistical evidence, I'll search out the last five murderous rampages, and if at least four of them aren't connected in some way to a religious delusion I'll retract.. Sound fair?
Be Back in a minute..

I just Edited my OP via profile>show posts> this thread, and didn't realise you'd answered  already Brakeman

I am interested in what you pull up regarding this.
I have just done the briefest scan of the webs and did find immediate corroboration (of sorts "undocumented") from 1980-1981  makes interesting reading, and on the face of it seems to indicate that you can back up your generalisation.
http://home.comcast.net/~pobrien48/killers%20my_studys.htm

Quote
My study of Mass Murderers

Why Do They Murder?

What Kind Of Moral Training Did They Receive?

I made a survey starting in 1980 and ending in 1981. It was an attempt to find why mass murderers killed people. For 18 months I cut every article from the Flint Journal telling about a mass murderers. There were 12 of them. I put the articles in a large envelope. I then spent many hours reading the articles trying to find some common link between each murderer. As I read the articles I asked, Why did the murder? What kind of moral training did they receive? How possibly could they kill loving, good people?

I found 11 of them either had a very religious upbringing, or they carried a Christian Bible with them at all times, or they believed in demons and devils.

I apologise for my "FFS" attachment to my first request for evidence or retraction as it seems as though I, in frustration, unfairly lumped you with Aceluffy for making unsupportable generalisations that do this site no favours in regards to our required "evidence based claims".

Still if it serves no purpose but to cause you to display further evidence of the horrors of the warp of theism I hope you won't feel too set upon.

 
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 08:22:09 PM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Historicity

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2011, 08:48:15 PM »
http://jezebel.com/5807230/reports-on-murder-of-beauty-pageant-contestant-may-incorrectly-blame-islam

Quote
The Telegraph reports that the area has no history of crimes being committed in the name of Sharia law. Gaziev is in police custody, and has reportedly confessed to the killing. Locals say he was obsessed with Koren, and he's being evaluated to see if he's mentally able to stand trial. According to a translated report from a Crimean government website, when asked why he committed the crime, Gaziev said, "I just wanted to kill her."

Their source is CBS News.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20067537-503543.html

Another oddity is that Katya is the nickname for Katerina which is a Christian name.  Sharia requires parents not to name their Christian children with Moslem names or vice versa so that you'll always know against whom to discriminate.


Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2011, 11:59:14 PM »
@Kin hell et al

I was just reading through the link you provided. Terrible stuff, what those people did. About 3/4 down the page I read this

The FBI gave the standard profile of a serial killer, He is a person with few friends. He became much more religious just before he started murdering people.

This seems to indicate to me that many, if not most, of these people already have it set in their minds that they are going to commit murder/s. Do they simply turn to the most popular Holy book available to them to look for justification? In America that would be the Bible. It's a sad fact that the Bible provides socially accepted scripture which can be interpreted pretty much any way you want. Even sadder is the fact that it provides specific instructions about how, why and when to commit atrocities to your fellow man. All that aside, the current argument is that one must be mentally unstable to commit murder and many people describe theists as being mentally unstable to start with so it is very very easy to equate a murderer to the predominant religion in the region.

My view is that a mentally unstable person is going to find whatever justification they need to commit the crimes they wish to commit. It really wouldn't take much for them to receive "permission" from their conscience's. It makes no difference to me if a person murdered my family because God gave them permission in book or if Skrillex gave them permission in a song.



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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2011, 09:52:58 AM »
This seems to indicate to me that many, if not most, of these people already have it set in their minds that they are going to commit murder/s. Do they simply turn to the most popular Holy book available to them to look for justification? In America that would be the Bible. It's a sad fact that the Bible provides socially accepted scripture which can be interpreted pretty much any way you want. Even sadder is the fact that it provides specific instructions about how, why and when to commit atrocities to your fellow man. All that aside, the current argument is that one must be mentally unstable to commit murder and many people describe theists as being mentally unstable to start with so it is very very easy to equate a murderer to the predominant religion in the region.

My view is that a mentally unstable person is going to find whatever justification they need to commit the crimes they wish to commit. It really wouldn't take much for them to receive "permission" from their conscience's. It makes no difference to me if a person murdered my family because God gave them permission in book or if Skrillex gave them permission in a song.

First, those bolded sections seem to contradict each other. You state that the bible isn't very clear in it's meaning, then in the very next sentence state that it is actually quite clear.

Second, you've made this argument many times, that crazy people are just crazy and religion is just a convenient scapegoat, like Son of Sam claiming his neighbor's dog told him to do it. Well, that might explain a few lone nuts like Anders Breveik, Seung-He Cho aka. Ismail Ax, or Andrea Yates, but it doesn't explain entire armies going to war in the name of religion, or the hundreds of suicide bombers.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religion of peace
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2011, 10:49:40 AM »
This seems to indicate to me that many, if not most, of these people already have it set in their minds that they are going to commit murder/s. Do they simply turn to the most popular Holy book available to them to look for justification? In America that would be the Bible. It's a sad fact that the Bible provides socially accepted scripture which can be interpreted pretty much any way you want. Even sadder is the fact that it provides specific instructions about how, why and when to commit atrocities to your fellow man. All that aside, the current argument is that one must be mentally unstable to commit murder and many people describe theists as being mentally unstable to start with so it is very very easy to equate a murderer to the predominant religion in the region.

My view is that a mentally unstable person is going to find whatever justification they need to commit the crimes they wish to commit. It really wouldn't take much for them to receive "permission" from their conscience's. It makes no difference to me if a person murdered my family because God gave them permission in book or if Skrillex gave them permission in a song.

First, those bolded sections seem to contradict each other. You state that the bible isn't very clear in it's meaning, then in the very next sentence state that it is actually quite clear.

Second, you've made this argument many times, that crazy people are just crazy and religion is just a convenient scapegoat, like Son of Sam claiming his neighbor's dog told him to do it. Well, that might explain a few lone nuts like Anders Breveik, Seung-He Cho aka. Ismail Ax, or Andrea Yates, but it doesn't explain entire armies going to war in the name of religion, or the hundreds of suicide bombers.

Many modern Christians choose to ignore the very specific instructions outlined in Deuteronomy. Many others are completely unaware that those versus even exist. They are there and far too many believers use those scriptures to justify their bigotry and hatred[1]. So, people pick and choose which parts of the Bible apply to them or pick and choose which church they attend based on the message of that particular church. I know it is a contradiction because for some silly reason most believers don't accept the "whole" of the Bible, they just read the parts that reinforce their SPAG then try to claim that the Bible is inerrant.   

I think whole armies going to war is similar in process just on a larger scale. But that is a complicated mess and in my mind the jury is still out on that. From my personal experience in the Army, when I went to Iraq nobody I served with or under thought of it as a holy war. I can't speak for the "terrorists" but I am skeptical that the only reason they fight is because their God commands them to. I suspect the primary motivation of the religious leaders[2] is power, land and resources. I suspect the primary motivation for the many of the foot soldiers is extreme poverty combined with religious indoctrination.

There is no easy fix. Sometimes I agree with Velkyn's recommendation of turning that part of the world into a glass pit but that goes against my humanitarian nature. So I am at odds with myself. Bleh.
 1. Which I believe is instilled in them by their parents or someone close to them
 2. In Islam the religious leaders are also the political leaders
« Last Edit: December 15, 2011, 10:52:08 AM by jaybwell32 »
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