Author Topic: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?  (Read 1021 times)

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Offline Aaron123

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To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« on: November 27, 2011, 07:49:00 PM »
Taken from this thread in the mailbag.

Quote
No innocent people starve. The scriptures say no one is innocent from the baby to the corpse. We all deserve to die. In fact it's a mercy that the best of us and the worst of us live at all.

Apparently, even babies are evil and sinful.  But what sin can a baby commit?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't they mostly eat, sleep, poop, pee, burp and make goo-goo noises?  Are we dealing with the sin of making a stinky mess in a diaper?  The sin of breast feeding?  Is "goo goo ga ga" devil-talk?

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 1. beside a load of bull, that is
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 08:14:38 PM »
religous insanity....the only thing missing
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Offline Nick

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 08:16:53 PM »
Original sin.  That damn apple and snake.  You can murder, lie, cheat, do all disgusting things you can think of but that apple really got God's panties in a bunch.
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Offline getter_beam

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 09:23:52 PM »
Hi guys. I'm new here.

I've been reading through many topics here and there's some really interesting ideas. Though don't expect any intelligent discussion from me, I'm too stupid ;D

Well, if we are all cursed by original sin, then babies would come under that.

I tried looking up some stuff in a Bible (I have like 4 around the house), and found some verses that hint at it. I can't believe anyone would follow God if he sent babies to Hell. That just doesn't make sense to me so I figured there must be something in the Bible against that.

And yeah I know, what the Bible says isn't exactly valid here, but at least it serves to show what Christians are following.

These are probably old news to you guys but I didn't see them posted. I see there are some pretty intelligent people here and you've probably already gone over this stuff.

I couldn't find much about babies, but there is a bit on children, which can be considered the same thing in the sense that both have no idea what's going on.

2 Samuel 12:22–23 And he said, "While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but the shall not return to me." (I'm guessing David knew where his son was.)

Psalm 127:3  "Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord, The fruit of the womb is a reward."
(God likes babies.)

Concerning children,

Mark 10:15 "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."

Matthew 19:13-14 "Then little children were brought to Him that He might put His hands on them and pray, but the disciples rebuked them. But Jesus said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven."

Both say the same thing basically, that children don't know what's going on and can't accept or deny Jesus aren't accountable. Just an idea, and it's all I could find at the moment.

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Offline Emily

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 09:40:17 PM »

Mark 10:15 "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."

I forgot about that passage.

In a strange way it contradicts Luke 23:43

Assuredly, I say tonight you will be with me in paradise.

(Jesus talking to the guy on his left who was crucified when he was, who begged to be remember when Jesus entered heaven.)

« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 09:42:02 PM by Emily »
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Offline getter_beam

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2011, 09:46:42 PM »
Sorry, Mr. Stupid here. :-[

How does it contradict? I don't think it's saying only children can enter. Maybe it's referring to the born again thing, which could be seen as being like a child?
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 09:48:36 PM by getter_beam »

Offline Emily

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 09:53:33 PM »
Sorry, Mr. Stupid here. :-[

How does it contradict?

That's why I said in a strange way..

Well, Jesus did let that one dude into heaven while he was a man (unless the Romans crucified a child with Jesus. The guys age isn't mentioned in any of the gospels) and (prior to his death) Jesus said what you quoted (Mark 10:15).

Then there's the possibility that this guy somehow knew about Jesus when he himself was a child, and was blessed by Jesus as a child and received the kingdom of god then, but instead turned out to sin and decided to have a death-bed conversion.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 09:55:27 PM by Emily »
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Offline getter_beam

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2011, 10:17:28 PM »
Is the contradiction that you say Jesus made a rule that only children can enter? Or am I missing something?

I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't mean you had to be blessed by him as a child to enter the kingdom. He never said that from what I've read. Like I said, the whole born again thing seems to make a lot of sense here.

Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, "If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us." But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, "Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation?  And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong." Then he said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom." And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." Luke 23:39-43

This verse right?

The guy simply choosing to believe isn't so amazing I guess. Whatever his reason, he believed. That's what I gather from what I've read anyway.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 11:40:07 PM »
Is the contradiction that you say Jesus made a rule that only children can enter? Or am I missing something?

I'm pretty sure Jesus didn't mean you had to be blessed by him as a child to enter the kingdom. He never said that from what I've read. Like I said, the whole born again thing seems to make a lot of sense here.

The quote from Mark says you need to "receive" the kingdom of god as a child, and if you don't, then you're screwed.  As there is "no other means" of entering it.

However, the crucified man was, presumably, an adult, and got his heaven ticket, even though he didn't "receive the kingdom of God as a little child".  Instead, he got in by butting up to Jesus.

At least I think this is what Emily is getting at.


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Offline getter_beam

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 01:02:12 AM »
I see now. The word 'as' is what we should look at here.

In this sentence it means 'as if you were a child' or 'become like a child', you don't actually have to be a child to be saved. Were it so, the disciples and anyone listening would pack up and go home. Jesus preached to everyone how to be saved.

You can see how this makes sense, or else how could the disciples go and preach to adults? That's exactly what they did everywhere, telling them the message of salvation.

And Jesus only said that thing about the children while dealing with children as an example. Also, the Bible continuously uses the word 'man' when talking about salvation.

I had a look around and found some scriptures that point to this.

1Tim.2:5: One mediator between God and men...Christ Jesus.
Jn.14:6: I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father but by Me.

Jn.3:3b: Except a man be born again, he cannot see the Kingdom. (This one is important I think for the children issue. If a child already doesn't know what the hell is going on, how can they then be expected to understand and then be born again? When Jesus said 'as a child', it's like saying start over, a new life.)

1Cor.3:11: For other foundation can no man lay than... Jesus Christ.
Rev.3:20: If any man...open the door, I will come in to him.
2Cor.5:17: If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.

There's a whole lot more but unnecessary to keep listing. So yeah, I'm not seeing any contradiction here. Hope this helps Emily:) I don't have the greatest understanding of the Bible, so forgive my rambling. This is just my take on the subject.

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2011, 01:09:30 AM »
Hi getter_beam

2 Samuel 12:22–23 And he said, "While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether God will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but the shall not return to me." (I'm guessing David knew where his son was.)

Sounds like the classic "God didn't save my child from death, why should I continue to praise Him? It's not like giving praise to God is going to bring my child back...now, we can only be together in death. I think I might kill myself."

I am not familiar with the Bible and do not know what the context is for this verse. But that's what that sounds like to me. Is it supposed to explain that the child is in heaven with God?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2011, 01:12:06 AM »
The quote from Mark says you need to "receive" the kingdom of god as a child, and if you don't, then you're screwed.  As there is "no other means" of entering it.

Good news everybody! According to this, I'm going to Heaven when I die. Isn't that great? WOOT!
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Offline getter_beam

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2011, 01:40:42 AM »
Hi. :D

Yes, it shows that David knew where his son was. It would be better to read the full story and know the context of course. David did some really terrible things, and God punished him.

David is saying he can go to his son who is with God, but his son isn't coming back. He didn't have any plan to kill himself.

So to answer the TC, babies don't commit any sin, apparently we're simply all born under this curse. So if a baby/child dies, it's a free pass. That's what I've gathered anyway.









Offline velkyn

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2011, 11:21:18 AM »
Hi. :D
Yes, it shows that David knew where his son was. It would be better to read the full story and know the context of course. David did some really terrible things, and God punished him.
Hmm, I've read the entire bible, so I know the contextof this story. We have a god that can't actually harm the sinner so he goes and murders a child instead. Talk about collateral damage! :P  No matter how terrible someone acted, I wouldn’t harm anyone else for his crimes.  Guess I’m smarter and more decent than this god.

Well, no, we aren't born under any curse.  However, this god of the Christians is pretty much an idiot in these myths. We have an omnipotent, omniscient god that either intentionally or mistakenly(which is rather hard on any claims of omni-stuff)  let his first creations be damned by the rules he set up himself.  Nothing saying he couldn’t rescind them.  Rather than just be fair and just (what those words really mean and not the lies of Christians), and allow everyone to be responsible for their own “crimes”, this dunce decides that he’ll damn everyone and make it necessary for all humanity to be “saved” in some manner.  But he can’t even get that right either. We have a failed flood, a failed covenant, a failed set of laws, and supposedly thousands of years later, he decides that he has to have part of himself murdered bloodily so that he can forgive people who would have to be born at the right time and place to accept this “savior” consciously.  And of course, that doesn’t’ even begin to address the idiocy of how he also puts other qualifications on how someone gets saved, to the point of even declaring that people are only saved by his “grace” aka his whim, which contradicts bunches of other bible god declarations.
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Offline getter_beam

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2011, 04:41:16 PM »
I don't understand it either, but I've been looking into it and trying to find some reason as to why.



Offline albeto

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2011, 05:08:55 PM »

Apparently, even babies are evil and sinful.  But what sin can a baby commit?

Well none, obviously.  Godbotherers tend to have a very limited history of their faith and don't realize that these concepts, like omniscience, omnipotence, omnipresence, omnibenevolence, original sin, justification, trinity, virgin birth and all that jazz were dogmas formalized by the early church in hopes to cut down on preaching that contradicted their authority (conveniently called "heresy").  When Martin Luther learned how to beat the catholics at their own game (authority), the bible became the only source of religious authority and these concepts had to be found i them somewhere.  It then became a game like "proving" Nostradamus knew about WWII by taking some obscure comment and making it fit after the fact.  Original sin explains why even babies need to be formally indoctrinated into the faith from before they're even weaned, much less capable of comprehending the simplest of theological ideas.  If every member of a community must belong to big brother's club, there has to be a reason.  "Oh I know," they figured out over many decades and many pints, "they'll be sent to hell everlasting for not having faith in jesus.  Well no bother if they're too young to believe, they can be baptized and their godparents will believe for them."

Offline Nick

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2011, 05:25:37 PM »
Those babies might look cute and all but don't turn your back on one any time soon.  They are cunning and will cut, rob, drain your bank account in no time.  Evil I tell you, evil.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline kevinagain

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2011, 06:15:40 PM »
gets worse as they get older. i've got one who's 14 now. works like this:

you gonna eat all of that? here i'll take some.

GORMPH

hey dad griffin ate all the pizza!

make him spit some back out.

no that's gross! go buy more and don't let him have any this time!

Offline velkyn

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2011, 09:47:05 AM »
I don't understand it either, but I've been looking into it and trying to find some reason as to why.

The reason you dont' understand it is that it makes no sense.  Christian have spent millenia trying to create excuses and reasons for their god.  What they fail to comprehend is that it is simply one of a bunch of Bronze/Iron Age gods that are simply puffed up humans, with the same frailties as the real humans that created them.  Once you get that ignorant primitive superstious men made this stuff up, that's all the explanation you need for such nonsense.
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Online flapdoodle64

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2011, 04:52:34 PM »
IIRC, there are images taken from actual fetuses in development that show boy fetuses getting erections and touching themselves in utero. 

Well, we know how god feels about that sort of thing...so by the time a baby boy is born, he has already committed the sin of playing with himself. 

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #20 on: November 29, 2011, 05:34:15 PM »
IIRC, there are images taken from actual fetuses in development that show boy fetuses getting erections and touching themselves in utero. 

Well, we know how god feels about that sort of thing...so by the time a baby boy is born, he has already committed the sin of playing with himself.

Since that minister says men who mastubate are actually homosexuals, this proves that they really are born that way. 8)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline getter_beam

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #21 on: November 29, 2011, 05:42:28 PM »
A big problem is how many people say they are Christian, or like the Catholics just make up whatever crap they want. Joseph Smith. Brian Tamaki. The list goes on and on.

I found this from another topic talking about the terrible things Christians have done throughout history.

"The Crusades, the case of the Magadalene Sisters, the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Europe, the genocide of Native Americans, enslaving Africans, destroying entire cultures and societies and so much more. To many outside of Christianity, it would seem that having a god actually JUSTIFIES such cruel acts."

And this:
- Dozens of denominations exist and have their own interpretations of heaven and how Christians should act. Which is right?
- How do you know? Where is your evidence?

These 2 things I seem really important because first they are throwing every denomination into one basket and judging as a whole, and second, the idea that having a God justifies doing these things.

I've been looking into stuff like this. I've checked the Bible Contradictions thread and when I get time I want to go through and see what they are and if there's any answer to them. I found a few that don't seem to be contradictions, but it's understandable that people would think so.

Just so you guys know I'm not trying to debate anyone on this, I'm just looking for information like I assume everyone here did at one point.







Offline violatedsmurf80

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #22 on: November 29, 2011, 06:42:01 PM »
The babble clearly teaches that we are born in sin and that GoD will not tolerate sinners. GoD has made one absolute and definitive provision for our salvation through the substitutionary atonement accomplished by Jesus. Salvation comes to those who believe him and confess him as a savior, and we cannot claim that infants are born in a state of innocence due to the original sin crap. Any biblical answer to the question of infant salvation must start from the understanding that infants are born with a sin nature. It leaves a few questions that probley will never be answered, which are how can a child confess a sin if he cannot speak, and if GoD was real would the child not knw who GoD was if he was real, beside depending on the influence of his or her parents. 

What they fail to comprehend is that it is simply one of a bunch of Bronze/Iron Age gods that are simply puffed up humans, with the same frailties as the real humans that created them.

I dont think that they failed, I think it was an excuse to be able to motivate people and repress the actual thinking that people do to question the authority of their leaders 
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Offline getter_beam

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #23 on: November 29, 2011, 06:53:41 PM »
In my previous posts I addressed that.

From what I've read, the Bible answers these questions about children. My posts has the verses. I feel those verses pretty much explain the situation for babies and children.


Offline Poseidon

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #24 on: November 29, 2011, 09:50:04 PM »
Referring to the bible (which bible we talking about here) for answers is like looking for answers in a cheese sandwich. The KJV, NIV, NRV, and all the rest are not certifiably reliable research texts.

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #25 on: November 29, 2011, 10:31:08 PM »
What "sins" do babies commit? They emerge from the womb as atheists, each and every one. 
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Offline getter_beam

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #26 on: November 29, 2011, 11:01:29 PM »
Poseidon,

Someone in my family has some good books on Bible translations, how they came about and when, and by who as well as how they stack up with the original documents. I haven't looked into it yet, but from what I hear the KJV is very reliable. But I'll do the research before I say anything for sure.

Where are all the contradictions and all the ideas put forth on this site coming from if not from the Bible? Most of the stuff on here is taken from the Bible to make the case against it. It's certifiably reliable text for us to attack only?

Where did the idea that babies and children could wind up in Hell come from? The Bible doesn't say that. I know the Catholics themselves have have an idea like this and I've done a little research on it. They practice infant baptism, but this isn't supported anywhere in the Bible.

Yet things like this are thrown around here as fact, but based on what reliable source? We're throwing every Christian denomination in the same basket.
 
In that case isn't it the same as the cheese sandwich thing?


Offline velkyn

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2011, 09:46:21 AM »
A big problem is how many people say they are Christian, or like the Catholics just make up whatever crap they want. Joseph Smith. Brian Tamaki. The list goes on and on.
Nice OneTrueChristiantm nonsense here.  Theists all make stuff up. 
Quote
I found this from another topic talking about the terrible things Christians have done throughout history.
"The Crusades, the case of the Magadalene Sisters, the Spanish Inquisition, the expulsion of Jews and Muslims from Europe, the genocide of Native Americans, enslaving Africans, destroying entire cultures and societies and so much more. To many outside of Christianity, it would seem that having a god actually JUSTIFIES such cruel acts."
And this:
- Dozens of denominations exist and have their own interpretations of heaven and how Christians should act. Which is right?
- How do you know? Where is your evidence?
These 2 things I seem really important because first they are throwing every denomination into one basket and judging as a whole, and second, the idea that having a God justifies doing these things.
No reason not to throw all denominations in one basket seeing as they all have the exact same evidence for their god: NONE.  They all claim to know what their god “really meant” and no way to prove it.  God has been given as justification for many horrible acts.  The crusades were supposed because God really wanted those heathens out of Jerusalem.  God really wanted witches burned.  God really hates Jews because they killed his “son” which he required as a sacrifice for the original sin nonsense that he put in place.
Quote
I've been looking into stuff like this. I've checked the Bible Contradictions thread and when I get time I want to go through and see what they are and if there's any answer to them. I found a few that don't seem to be contradictions, but it's understandable that people would think so.
If you don’t think that they are contradictions, then start a new thread under that list and show how they aren’t. However, don’t expect people to simply accept your assertions.  You need to back them up. 

Quote
Just so you guys know I'm not trying to debate anyone on this, I'm just looking for information like I assume everyone here did at one point.
  Well, by reading this forum you can get quite a lot of information.  Asking questions helps get information too. However, making claims and then saying you aren’t looking to debate anyone is rather ridiculous.  A claim is the beginning of a debate, to be supported or shot down. 
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Offline getter_beam

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Re: To all theists: what sins do babies commit?
« Reply #28 on: November 30, 2011, 07:05:28 PM »
The OneTrueChristian thing, yes, that's exactly right. They all say they're right. What I was thinking is that there must be a starting point, whether made up or not, which all the crap is built on. We can rule a lot of stuff out by checking when, why who came up with it.

No reason not to throw all denominations in one basket seeing as they all have the exact same evidence for their god: NONE.  They all claim to know what their god “really meant” and no way to prove it.  God has been given as justification for many horrible acts.  The crusades were supposed because God really wanted those heathens out of Jerusalem.  God really wanted witches burned.  God really hates Jews because they killed his “son” which he required as a sacrifice for the original sin nonsense that he put in place.

But what if God never wanted them to do this? I haven't found anything that says God supported the Crusades or wanted witches burnt, other than the theists of the time said so. I guess that's the big problem, because as you said they keep making stuff up.

However, don’t expect people to simply accept your assertions.  You need to back them up.

Of course, I know this. I just said some don't seem to be, but they are so many on that graph. If I can find the time I want to go through them.

Well, by reading this forum you can get quite a lot of information.  Asking questions helps get information too. However, making claims and then saying you aren’t looking to debate anyone is rather ridiculous.  A claim is the beginning of a debate, to be supported or shot down.

Sorry, I wasn't trying to make any claim, my posts are just ideas I've had.