Author Topic: question [#2623]  (Read 3606 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4363
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappĂ©
question [#2623]
« on: November 27, 2011, 09:40:42 AM »
HI
Mr Marshall
Thanks for sharing those interesting information
the question is quite special that most people have not thought about
 
I accidentally found a website rebutting your points
How do you respond them?
 
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_wont_god_heal_amputees.html
 
thanks
[name redacted]
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10921
  • Darwins +284/-37
  • Gender: Male
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 09:43:15 AM »
Sorry, doesn't work. They assume the Bible is true because it says that it's true, then use it to prove their point, whilst saying that certain verses are more "right" than others when they contradict each other. Circular reasoning along with cherry picking are not arguments.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline monkeymind

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2592
  • Darwins +44/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I don't understand what I know about it!
    • How To Know If You Are A Real Christian
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 09:51:56 AM »
I can see a whole new website coming:
WWGHMB
Why Won't God Heall Marshall Brain?

Quote
If you are a Christian, pray for Mr. Brain. Changing him into a lover of God would certainly be a miracle greater than replacing someone's legs.
Truthfinder:the birds adapt and change through million of years in order to survive ,is that science, then cats should evolve also wings to better catch the birds
Mailbag:On a side note, back in college before my conversion, I actually saw a demon sitting next to me in critical thinking class.

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7276
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 09:59:58 AM »
That linked page starts off with the statement that the WWGHA website is anti-Christian.  I disagree.  It is not anti-Christian, it is anti-delusion, or pro-thinking.   ;D

The entirety of Christianity has been founded on apologetics.  For it's entire existence, people have been "explaining" why Christianity is true.  If it were actually true, very little explanation would be necessary, and very few people would challenge it.  Christianity is apparently no mystery at all, as long as one believes it is true.  But then again, for it's entire existence, Christianity has been a mystery revealed plainly to those who seek it, and wish it to be true.

It's truly a sad thing to see so many people wrapped up in what amounts to nothing more than mythology and superstition, belief in supernatural, odds, and heavy handed morals that make earthquakes, tsunamis and volcanoes look like pillow fights between six year olds. 

The bottom line is this: all things that do not directly embrace Christianity, according to the site linked above, are anti-Christian.  Pure non-sense.

Online Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2733
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 11:20:33 AM »
I accidentally found a website rebutting your points
How do you respond them?
 
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_wont_god_heal_amputees.html
 

I'd respond by saying that it makes terrible arguments.

1) Start with referring the bible, instead of a real-life event.

2) Exclaim that the bible MUST be true.  Don't discuss the possiblity that the whole thing was made up, including events and characters.

3) Account for god's non-action.  Offer a story where natural healing is a possible explaination.  Don't even bring up the possibility of natural healing.

4) Quote bible verses.  Offer woo that's beside the point.

5) Accuse opponant of being chicken.

6) Offer "god luvs you" woo.

7) Have your entire selection of work references be cherry-picked bible verses.


What's sad is how they see nothing wrong with any of those arguments.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline relativetruth

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 605
  • Darwins +9/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2011, 12:26:38 PM »
HI
Mr Marshall
Thanks for sharing those interesting information
the question is quite special that most people have not thought about
 
I accidentally found a website rebutting your points
How do you respond them?
 
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/why_wont_god_heal_amputees.html
 
thanks
[name redacted]

I just love this quote from the above website

Quote
However, what technology is really good at is giving us "better" ways to kill each other and more free time to commit sin. No thanks, Mr. Brain. I prefer a place in which righteousness dwells.

Oh , please God, transport me to place where righteousness feeds me and protects me from diseases and stops me from engaging in computers and media technology which corrupts me  ;D
 
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline Irish

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3153
  • Darwins +18/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Moraxella catarrhalis on BA
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 06:24:42 PM »
^ The hypocrisy and irony is thick when using a computer and the internet to write a line implying a disdain for technology.  ;)
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline Historicity

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2350
  • Darwins +80/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • (Rama, avatar of Vishnu)
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2011, 12:07:40 AM »
Here's what Rich Deem says:
Quote
The problem with the idea that the disciples made up the miracles of Jesus is that the hostile witnesses of the time (the Jewish religious leadership) never denied that those miracles took place, but attributed them to the work of Satan. In his rebuttal to Jewish Celsus, Origen reported Celsus as saying Jesus had obtained His miraculous gifts while in Egypt (obviously by the power of sorcery). If the miracles of Jesus had been made-up, the Jews would have denied they ever happened, rather than attribute them to the work of the devil.

Celsus wasn't a Jew and he lived circa 177 AD.  This is Celsus' only reference to Egypt:
Quote
Let's assume for a minute that he foretold his resurrection. Are you ignorant of the multitudes who have invented similar tales to lead simple minded hearers astray? It is said that Zamolxis, Pythagoras' servant, convinced the Scythians that he had risen from the dead... and what about Pythagoras himself in Italy! Or Rhampssinitus in Egypt.
And as to miracles:
Quote
It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie, and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction.

His documentation is the Argumentum ad Nivem as I call the snow job.  It is pseudodocumentation to slip in undocumented false statements.

So Rich Deem is, uh, how shall we put it, straying from the truth.

Here's the source on Celsus: Web Archive -- Celsus on Christianity
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 12:10:05 AM by Historicity »

Offline Mr. Blackwell

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2668
  • Darwins +76/-23
  • Gender: Male
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2011, 12:24:04 AM »
If you are a Christian, pray for Mr. Brain. Changing him into a lover of God would certainly be a miracle greater than replacing someone's legs.


So they are playing match maker for their God now? ...how many lovers do they think God needs?

Mr. Brain, I will pray that God does not find you worthy of his love... :blank:

edit:

Oh, and I'm sure this guy accidentally stumbled across that website.  &)

wait...why am I doing this...why is it so easy to make fun of people like this. fdlaieoiuroiuweoijf;alskjdflksadcvasnc, :-X

Now i'm all conflicted again. damn it.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 12:30:45 AM by jaybwell32 »
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline grant

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 407
  • Darwins +4/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2011, 03:16:09 AM »
I clicked the link and stopped at

Quote
also the author of an anti-Christian website

Untrue and out of context. Not worth reading any further. 

I don't believe you "accidently" found that web site. The odds of that are enormous. In the billions. I think you went looking for WWGHA and decided you'd try and stir things up a bit here.

At least be honest about it. Why do you think lying is the best path? Why just tell a lie when you don't need to? Do you have any morals? Or do you just think everyone else is stupid and your lame email is clever?

Do you have any input to the topic or just want us to discuss it for you?
What if the hokey pokey is what its all about?

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3880
  • Darwins +257/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2011, 02:41:22 PM »
Let us examine one section:
Quote
The common objection to his argument is that the Bible just made up this miracles, like all others it reports. Of course, this objection is offered without any proof of being correct. It is just assumed that the disciples would do anything, including lying, in order to propagate their lies. The funny thing about the assertion is that it directly contradicts the teachings of Jesus, which was fiercely against the hypocrites. So, the disciples are being accused of doing exactly what they preached against. Again, no evidence is offered that they ever did any such kind of lying. What they skeptics won't tell you is that there is actually evidence that directly contradicts this assertion. The problem with the idea that the disciples made up the miracles of Jesus is that the hostile witnesses of the time (the Jewish religious leadership) never denied that those miracles took place, but attributed them to the work of Satan.1 In his rebuttal to Jewish Celsus, Origen reported Celsus as saying Jesus had obtained His miraculous gifts while in Egypt (obviously by the power of sorcery).2 If the miracles of Jesus had been made-up, the Jews would have denied they ever happened, rather than attribute them to the work of the devil. It was, in fact, the miracles of Jesus that convinced a large number of people that Jesus of Nazareth was the Messiah. So, the extra-biblical evidence actually supports the Bible's claim that Jesus performed numerous miracles, including the healing of an amputee.


The begging the question aspect here is so thick I wonder if this person is kidding or just stupid.  OK there is a document that claims fantastical things, things that are not operating in the way we observe today....do we automatically accept it as true? Even these tales of "hostile witnesses" any cooberation. Why do you apply one standard of proof to the Bible(very, very, very low), but not the same standard of proof to every other tale of magical happenings that was written?

Please answer me that Mr. Apologist; Why do you engage in special pleading leading to begging the question?

We here do not...we treat all tales of magical happenings with the same brush, healthy skepticism.





« Last Edit: November 28, 2011, 04:02:23 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2709
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: question [#2623]
« Reply #11 on: November 29, 2011, 02:48:41 AM »
Let us examine one section:
Quote
In his rebuttal to Jewish Celsus, Origen reported Celsus as saying Jesus had obtained His miraculous gifts while in Egypt

The begging the question aspect here is so thick I wonder if this person is kidding or just stupid.

What he's saying, is that the strongest evidence he has that Jesus had supernatural powers is a conversation, 218 years after-the-fact, by two clueless individuals. I'm sure that it he had anything better, he would have offered that first.

What gets me is that Christians think that the 4 books of the gospel constitute eyewitnesses, even though they are obviously copied from each other.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2011, 02:55:42 AM by Add Homonym »
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.