Author Topic: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]  (Read 996 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Hi, I was doing some creation research pro and con and came across your 10 questions that theists need to answer.  I know I’m not going to change a persons mind with one letter but I want to take up the challenge and ask you to answer these questions also.  Your questions deserve answers.  Your questions are credible. So are mine.

You love to use the word obvious. It’s obvious to you that there is no creator. So, if the obvious is so powerful let me use it. It’s obvious life didn’t design itself, or create itself, because matter didn’t either nor energy.  Why do protons and electrons and quarks even do what they do? Where did everything come from? Can something come from nothing, can information come from no information?  Why does the 4 letter code of dna do anything?. Where did the language that DNA codes come from and why should it work at all?

 It’s obvious to us that first life did not ever create itself.  No sentient being has presented a credible experience with a complex process, such as a machine making itself. Obviously nothing that we know was made was made without a mind.  We can conceive of such an event being self sustaining even for a very long time such as seeds to plants to seeds to more plants. It’s the first plant we have trouble seeing anything obvious about, except a mind being the first prime motivator of it. So, obviously there is a mind behind life.

Now your first question.

You say there’s no creator to answer prayer, because amputees never get their limbs back.  Therefore pray obviously does not work.
It’s obvious that the world is lumpy, and the universe as well. We have no experience with any process working in an expected manner perfectly. There are many consistent things but even they cannot be counted on in every case. Quantum theory implies that sometimes the apple will fall up.  So, I am not surprised that amputees never get their limbs back. Although I am not everywhere and it’s possible it happens, tho rarely I suppose, but possibly somewhere on earth. Still It’s a miracle  amputees are alive at all and don’t bleed to death. God was merciful to amputees by providing healing, vitamin k and clotting factors. The amputee's malady isn't life threatening in most cases. I don't expect to get my pulled teeth back. But, I do pray about it. So far the answer is no. I'm cool with that. I deserve to be dead.

I think a lot of healing is coincidental to prayer.  But, then I think the fact that you cut yourself and it often stops bleeding and heals is a miracle whether prayed for or not. I think penicillin was a miracle.  The fact that you can explain it doesn’t separate me from the obvious feeling that it’s miraculous and merciful that our bodies can respond favorably to these discoveries and inventions.  I give God the glory for any improvement in our lives whether a response to prayer or not.  Scientific advancements are blessings from God who gave some people the brains to figure it things out. But, all science is not necessarily a blessing. It will kill all of us someday. Probably when some environmental scientist decides he can fix climate and actually tries it.

I am satisfied that God is generally very quiet. And chooses not to heal in obvious spectacular ways. I think he is purposefully subtle. We can easily think was that a miracle or just the body doing what it often does. Fight off disease. Either way I think it's a miracle.

Inarguable miracles like amputees getting their limbs back ain't gonna happen often if ever. But we aren't everywhere and don't have enough info to say it never happens. You and I just haven't seen or heard of it.    I think God doesn’t want to over whelm us. Jesus often said don’t tell anyone. He often, not always, avoided fanfare. Elijah the prophet said  God is called a still small voice. Jesus said He is meek and lowly of heart. The reason… faith. Faith is one of the big building blocks of existence. Without faith we could hardly do anything, we’d have zero reason to move because we couldn’t depend on anything happening the same way twice. I have faith, that if I walk outside, it’s very unlikely I would die from lack of oxygen, or a sun that suddenly fried me to a crisp.  God cannot prove himself to us ever. If he came down and threw lightening bolts, that would only prove he’s a powerful being. If he pulled a rabbit out of a hat, that wouldn’t prove he created the rabbit, just that he can do fancy inexplicable things. There is nothing God can do to prove he is the supreme being. You just have to believe what He says about himself or not.   After all he could have faked the cross. Hell, the universe could a big fake. I just don't believe it is. What do you believe? The only thing that validates Jesus or God is my faith in the things he said based on more and more experience with him. I am not alone He is always with me.  You may say my faith is missed placed.  But, I think hmm, Jesus or you?....  I go with Jesus. I have more faith in him. Because I know him better, He's got a track record, the things He says are wonderful and amazing "neither do I condemn you go and sin no more" "suffer the little children to come unto me for of such if the Kingdom of Heaven" "love your enemies" "do good to them that persecute you" "pray for them that despitefully use you" "greater love has no man that to lay down his life for his friend" etc etc etc; and, he offers much more than you do. All you offer me is to eat, work, watch a little tv and die. By the way the, you imply, the universe is a big tease and joke offering you and your loved one's a wonderful but  tiny taste of life and then off to the dustbin with you forever.  That is, the universe has no meaning because eventually there will be no mind to contemplate or appreciate such a thing as meaning anywhere forever ever and ever. If you're right?

Why do innocent people starve?  No innocent people starve. The scriptures say no one is innocent from the baby to the corpse. We all deserve to die. In fact it's a mercy that the best of us and the worst of us live at all. The scriptures also say life is gonna be messy and the least culpable will get taken out by accident, unintended consequences, and the deliberate sins of the more culpable.  The obvious answer is people starve because they can’t grow food, find food, or  get somebody who can, to give them food.  God has provided plenty of food in the world by creating nitrogen and food and people who make farming work dependably and efficiently. So you can’t blame the creator. It’s the fault of evil people that anyone starves. It's our fault and the fault of demons that people starve. I know you don't believe in demons. I just threw that in to get your blood up. But still, Beware!

God has made it clear that he isn’t going to stop every bad thing. If he did you would complain because he’d have to stop your bad things too.  And, you wouldn’t like it. You like being bad once in a while. You would hate God even more even if it meant people didn’t starve any more.  He is not a puppet master. He appeals to us to be righteous. Because,  that’s the only thing that would work.  The universe will never be right if policemen are required to make it so. 

Next question:
Why does God demand the death of innocent people.  For Working on Sabbath. I don't know and see my previous answer. I do know that Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.I don't understand it and probably wouldn't order it myself and probably would screw things up being emotional about it, think Bruce Almighty. I deeply believe that God does all things well. I'll find out in Heaven what the deal was about  and I'll be alright with it; but like God I'll be  sad about it a long time. I hope you will believe someday that God does all things well.

If  you were God or even a dictator,  or anyone was, I bet there would be quite a number of people that would get erased for one reason or another. You pick your reasons, let God pick his. Being modern western/Hellenic type like you I think and  feel like maybe God  was  over reacting.  Even Moses pleaded with God not to destroy the Israelites after  the Mount Sinai Orgy. Moses was afraid it would make God look bad to the surrounding nations. The ancients weren’t ignorant of public relations. Neither is God. I think he purposely presents himself in difficult light because he filtering for the enthusiastic.  He loves the persistent and passionate.

But, I wasn’t there and I don’t know all the issues. I suppose if there was a dreadful lingering disease,  extremely contagious, and incurable, like sin is, we would find our selves agreeing to some pretty awful things about people that caught it. I personally don’t think desecrating the sabbath is as bad as that , but I’m not God. I didn’t invent the Sabbath or the world. I’m sure he has lots of issues to deal with in a world as warped by sin and evil as ours. In fact I’m surprised he lets any of us live, as cruel as the best of us are to each other, even  if only cruel occasionally or when we were kids.  Liberals find it easy to fantasize that  the world might be better off without the human race. That we are generally a blight  and a danger to the  earth and it’s creatures. I bet liberals, socialists, communists, atheists and environmentalist would have a long list of people they would like to exterminate.  Conservatives feel that sometimes too.  It’s easy to judge God. We do it to each other all the damn long day.  And he never strikes us down.

Why does the Bible have so much anti-science non-sense?  Now you guys got to make up your mind.  You insist that the Bible is not a science book so why would you expect it to agree with your take on science.  While I’m at it.  You think creationists know nothing about science and are anti science.  The truth is the educated and uneducated Christians have no problem  accepting 99% of scientific knowledge. We have problems with evolution producing new species (not even science agrees on what the hell a species is), we know natural selection happens, we call it micro evolution. We can see that, you can measure it but no one has seen serious specieation happen. A few birds on islands were given species status  but they are still birds very much like their original source birds.

We basically think dogs have some sort of dog and cats some sort of cat. And it’s never changed and isn’t ever gonna’ change.  That's obvious to us and should be to you. You have never seen a new species being born from another species. You do see change that's all. How far it goes you have no idea. You extrapolate from fossils and bones far more than you have any right doing scientifically speaking. You're basically flipping a coin a million times. Even Evolutionists used to trace the Human race to one pair, which would be obvious to anyone. But now they deny that because it's too much like Adam and Eve. We say after the first human  two modern humans all their progeny were a variety of modern human.  You might believe  neanderthals and modern humans are separate evolutionary lines of sentient beings. But if you say they can interbreed you are just admitting they are the same species. Maybe different races but definitely both human. Different species can't produce viable progeny by definition. Many types of Roaches and some other creatures have been around for ever and hardly changed at all. That’s not even possible according to mutational theory. They would have to change. But, they haven't.

We also have problems with your insisting we’re crazy for believing in a world wide flood we never saw; even tho it looks like something really heavy happened to this world which your people use to think was ruled by uniformitarianism. You’re coming our way when you now agree the world has suffered much cataclysm.  The stuff you believe, and it is  often a belief based on some over reaching projections built on a thousand assumptions--- like the physics here has to be the same everywhere else in the universe. You don’t know that , won’t ever know that ‘cause you’ll be lucky to make it to the next star before science plays it’s final card and delivers us the technology and the philosophy that causes’ us to destroy our selves. Good bye human race if you’re right about no God and no savior.  Science has been a great blessing but sooner or later it will be the maximum curse. It’s only a matter of time before some science enabled war or science created accident destroys every living  human.  bye, bye.


Delusions:
You seriously think you have no delusions. The definition of being Human is to be deluded.  That’s why Jesus said the truth would set you free. It’s delusion to think rationality, Aristotelian thought process, and science will save us. Because we rarely think rationally. We’re deluded because we think we often can be and do act rationally. When we usually act emotionally. Only rarely do we act purely rationally.  That’s  proof we need a savior. We not gonna’ save our selves.

We think you’re equally deluded when you try to tell us what happened billions of years ago, which you haven’t applied the scientific method to--- which is to measure, observe (the real creature in the actual environment,  not just it's bones, or some computer simulation), to experiment, reproduce outcomes, hypothesize and conclude. You go right to the conclude based on highly interpretive views of the evidence.  Science  dares to extrapolate billions of years into the past, using highly misunderstood evidence,  when science rarely can  predict the weather 6 days ahead of time or the path of a hurricane. We look at the wonders of nature and the heavens and want to worship. You look and say where’s the evidence for God. Are you insane?  Or just totally deluded?


Why did God tell Israel to stone disobedient children?

My translation says incorrigible children.  Really bad children. Yes, there are really evil children. And I would be for it if the state could be trusted not to screw up it's investigation into who is incorrigible which it can't help but screw up. Gov'ts have more than proven that they don't deserve that power.

I remember hearing a social scientist say when asked …why are human’s so social and why do they get along as good as they do. He said capital punishment. Until recently anyone who was a bully got killed or banished which is the same as killed in those day. We selected for the most peaceful, cooperative, docile and  agreeable types.  I wouldn’t mind seeing really twisted uncooperative children done away with but it ain’t gonna happen and I’m not pushing for it. We’d have a lot less people growing up to brutalize their kids if we did.  Can you imagine that our present race is more civil than previous generations. Man, they must have been awful back then. Lord save us from ourselves. Amen and sincerely  [name redacted]

response to

the other five questions to us  you gloss over so will I too.

I [name redacted] fellow traveler sincerely wish you every good thing.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline jetson

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2011, 09:20:01 AM »
Apologetics 101!

Congratulations letter writer!  You win an all expense paid trip to Heaven, to be with the God of your own personal choosing, you know, the one true God!  You'll spend an eternity hobnobbing with the likes of Abraham, Moses, and all those soldiers who obediently drew their swords down upon the babies in multiple towns, slicing them in two and instantly ending their obviously sinful lives!

And, for saying you don't even deserve to live, you'll also get a fabulous dinner with Jesus, the Christ!  Don't eat too much prior to this main event, because you're in for a truly magical feast of bread and fish, and it's all you can eat!

Must be 18 or older to participate.  Void where prohibited.  Residents of Texas, Mississippi, Louisiana, North Carolina, and Alabama may not participate due to their guarantee of Heavenly bliss as a state resident.  Amen.


Offline One Above All

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2011, 09:34:42 AM »
That's a very long message. I had high expectations for it, but it is as they say - size isn't everything.

Hi, I was doing some creation research pro and con and came across your 10 questions that theists need to answer.

Note that it's 10 questions that christians need to answer. Other forms of theism do not have the Bible as their basis for pretty much everything.
Also, it's best not to defend a position (creationism) that has been proven false ad infinitum.

I know I’m not going to change a persons mind with one letter but I want to take up the challenge and ask you to answer these questions also.  Your questions deserve answers.  Your questions are credible. So are mine.

We'll see.

You love to use the word obvious. It’s obvious to you that there is no creator. So, if the obvious is so powerful let me use it. It’s obvious life didn’t design itself, or create itself, because matter didn’t either nor energy.  Why do protons and electrons and quarks even do what they do? Where did everything come from? Can something come from nothing, can information come from no information?  Why does the 4 letter code of dna do anything?. Where did the language that DNA codes come from and why should it work at all?

Those questions are irrelevant. Argument from silence sucks unless the only available option has evidence. For example: Where did your God come from? You can't answer, therefore I did it.
Did that convince you? Obviously not.

It’s obvious to us that first life did not ever create itself.  No sentient being has presented a credible experience with a complex process, such as a machine making itself.

Nobody claimed such a thing. I'm calling strawman on this.

Obviously nothing that we know was made was made without a mind.

This is not true but, even if it were true, either the mind that created life was incredibly retarded (read up on how unreliable DNA duplication is) or intended for us to be poorly designed.

We can conceive of such an event being self sustaining even for a very long time such as seeds to plants to seeds to more plants. It’s the first plant we have trouble seeing anything obvious about, except a mind being the first prime motivator of it. So, obviously there is a mind behind life.

Nope, sorry. You have trouble seeing anything obvious about the first photosynthetic life form (which was also most likely the first life form on this planet). You should read up on abiogenesis.

Now your first question.

At this point, I expect from you what I expect from every theist who sends a message in all caps (nothing).

It’s obvious that the world is lumpy, and the universe as well.

"Lumpy"? Last I checked, the Earth was fairly round, and the shape of the universe is still a matter of ongoing discussion.

We have no experience with any process working in an expected manner perfectly.

Yeah we do. Evolution (for example) is expected to produce genetic mutations that, along with natural selection, among others, benefits a specific life form. Guess what? It always does.

There are many consistent things but even they cannot be counted on in every case.

See above.

Quantum theory implies that sometimes the apple will fall up.

Either I'm incredibly retarded, or you're lying. I think the latter.

So, I am not surprised that amputees never get their limbs back. Although I am not everywhere and it’s possible it happens, tho rarely I suppose, but possibly somewhere on earth.

Zero evidence, along with the fact that the Bible says that everything that is asked for in prayer will be done means that you haven't read the Bible or researched what you're talking about.

Still It’s a miracle  amputees are alive at all and don’t bleed to death. God was merciful to amputees by providing healing, vitamin k and clotting factors.

Sorry, no. Amputees used to bleed to death or die of shock even with those things. Thanks to the advancements of modern medicine (hint: God didn't do shit), we were able to save more and more of them. We're still not able to save 100% of amputees, though.

The amputee's malady isn't life threatening in most cases. I don't expect to get my pulled teeth back. But, I do pray about it. So far the answer is no. I'm cool with that. I deserve to be dead.

I think you deserve some therapy and science books.

I think a lot of healing is coincidental to prayer.  But, then I think the fact that you cut yourself and it often stops bleeding and heals is a miracle whether prayed for or not.

Miracle: Supernatural event without explanation. Those things are not miracles. They are natural processes that we acquired through evolution.

I think penicillin was a miracle.  The fact that you can explain it doesn’t separate me from the obvious feeling that it’s miraculous and merciful that our bodies can respond favorably to these discoveries and inventions.  I give God the glory for any improvement in our lives whether a response to prayer or not.  Scientific advancements are blessings from God who gave some people the brains to figure it things out. But, all science is not necessarily a blessing. It will kill all of us someday. Probably when some environmental scientist decides he can fix climate and actually tries it.

It's amazing that billions of people had to die in pain before these advancements that didn't require any God. Thank you, God!

I am satisfied that God is generally very quiet. And chooses not to heal in obvious spectacular ways. I think he is purposefully subtle. We can easily think was that a miracle or just the body doing what it often does. Fight off disease. Either way I think it's a miracle.

Read the Bible.


Well, I've wasted enough time with this one. I suggest you actually read the Bible, followed by some scientific research so that you can see how wrong it is, and get some therapy.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 09:46:40 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Offline C

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2011, 09:48:04 AM »
You say there’s no creator to answer prayer, because amputees never get their limbs back.  Therefore pray obviously does not work.
It’s obvious that the world is lumpy, and the universe as well. We have no experience with any process working in an expected manner perfectly. There are many consistent things but even they cannot be counted on in every case. Quantum theory implies that sometimes the apple will fall up.  So, I am not surprised that amputees never get their limbs back. Although I am not everywhere and it’s possible it happens, tho rarely I suppose, but possibly somewhere on earth. Still It’s a miracle  amputees are alive at all and don’t bleed to death. God was merciful to amputees by providing healing, vitamin k and clotting factors. The amputee's malady isn't life threatening in most cases. I don't expect to get my pulled teeth back. But, I do pray about it. So far the answer is no. I'm cool with that.

You still failed to address why amputees don't get their limbs back even after praying to an omnipotent God that loves them very much. In fact, why in the first place would they have their limbs shot off, cut off and sawed off if such a God that's merciful existed?

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I deserve to be dead.

Woah, what?

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I think a lot of healing is coincidental to prayer.  But, then I think the fact that you cut yourself and it often stops bleeding and heals is a miracle whether prayed for or not.

A miracle is defined as something that defies reality. That goes against pretty much everything. Like a human walking on water. Or a human parting an entire body of water with a garment.

Moreover as to why cuts stop bleeding, cuts can stop bleeding because thrombin and fibrinogen combine to make fibrin which basically forms a blood clot blocking the blood from leaving the exits of the cuts. No miracle involved. Just our bodily functions.

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I think penicillin was a miracle.  The fact that you can explain it doesn’t separate me from the obvious feeling that it’s miraculous and merciful that our bodies can respond favorably to these discoveries and inventions.  I give God the glory for any improvement in our lives whether a response to prayer or not.  Scientific advancements are blessings from God who gave some people the brains to figure it things out.

It's funny how you give glory to God when good things happen when it was done by humans alone while when bad things happen you do not blame your God.

If penicillin was a miracle, then what is abortion and stem cell research? Oh but wait, you answer that in the following:

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But, all science is not necessarily a blessing. It will kill all of us someday. Probably when some environmental scientist decides he can fix climate and actually tries it.

Um..okay? *Points finger to head and rotates it in a circle*

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I am satisfied that God is generally very quiet. And chooses not to heal in obvious spectacular ways.

So hundreds of millions of people who are starving, getting massacred, shot, tear-gased, amputated, gutted, raped and so on as a result of the inaction of your God satisfies you? That's pretty depressing.

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I think he is purposefully subtle. We can easily think was that a miracle or just the body doing what it often does. Fight off disease. Either way I think it's a miracle.

WHY do you think he is subtle? This is supposedly the same God that appeared to hundreds of people throughout the contents of the Bible. From Adam and Eve to Abraham to Jacob to David to Paul and so many more! Perhaps you will say that it is because we "do not understand God", well then my friend, that pretty much undermines your religion and belief in God. If you do not "understand" God, then how do you form a plethora of tens of thousands of denominations and religions around it while basing them off of a book centered around God as well? How can you claim that God created the universe if you don't "understand him"?

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Inarguable miracles like amputees getting their limbs back ain't gonna happen often if ever.

Because the Christian God and promises of the power of prayer and results from it are imaginary and lies.

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But we aren't everywhere and don't have enough info to say it never happens. You and I just haven't seen or heard of it.

Uh, I'm pretty sure if an amputee got his/her limbs back, it'd be all over the freaking news. Wouldn't matter if it was in the most isolated village of rural China. It'd still make the news. Christians and others would jump on that shit immediately if they even heard a rumor of it.

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I think God doesn’t want to over whelm us. Jesus often said don’t tell anyone. He often, not always, avoided fanfare.

Um...okay, look, Jesus was the guy who walked on water, healed dozens of the sick, blind and leprosy-stricken individuals and rode on a donkey into the city and was greeted by hundreds of people. He was fawned over by many during his lifetime according to the Bible and even appeared to 500 people after he died.

Also, God "doesn't want to overwhelm us"? Mate, we're beyond the thinking of the primitive men who created and edited this so called "holy book" of yours, I'm pretty sure we can handle the regeneration of a limb or two considering the amount of progress we've made in the past couple of centuries.

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Elijah the prophet said  God is called a still small voice. Jesus said He is meek and lowly of heart. The reason… faith. Faith is one of the big building blocks of existence. Without faith we could hardly do anything, we’d have zero reason to move because we couldn’t depend on anything happening the same way twice. I have faith, that if I walk outside, it’s very unlikely I would die from lack of oxygen, or a sun that suddenly fried me to a crisp.

Since when has "faith" solved anything? Is being willfully ignorant or blind good nowadays? Who would you go to when you're sick? A non-Christian doctor or a priest/pastor/reverend?


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God cannot prove himself to us ever. If he came down and threw lightening bolts, that would only prove he’s a powerful being. If he pulled a rabbit out of a hat, that wouldn’t prove he created the rabbit, just that he can do fancy inexplicable things. There is nothing God can do to prove he is the supreme being.

He could end world hunger, poverty, magically get rid of the current pileup of greenhouse gas emissions, heal amputees, pretty much fucking millions of things that would prove he is God.

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You just have to believe what He says about himself or not.

Look, if someone walked up to you and said "I am the Messiah, the Savior of Humanity, throw away your possessions and join my trek across the country!". Would you:

A) Do what he says on this "faith" of yours?
or
B) Ask for proof that he is indeed the Messiah?

B of course. Same thing applies to God/Jesus.


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After all he could have faked the cross. Hell, the universe could a big fake. I just don't believe it is. What do you believe? The only thing that validates Jesus or God is my faith in the things he said based on more and more experience with him. I am not alone He is always with me.  You may say my faith is missed placed.  But, I think hmm, Jesus or you?....  I go with Jesus. I have more faith in him. Because I know him better, He's got a track record, the things He says are wonderful and amazing "neither do I condemn you go and sin no more" "suffer the little children to come unto me for of such if the Kingdom of Heaven" "love your enemies" "do good to them that persecute you" "pray for them that despitefully use you" "greater love has no man that to lay down his life for his friend" etc etc etc; and, he offers much more than you do. All you offer me is to eat, work, watch a little tv and die. By the way the, you imply, the universe is a big tease and joke offering you and your loved one's a wonderful but  tiny taste of life and then off to the dustbin with you forever.  That is, the universe has no meaning because eventually there will be no mind to contemplate or appreciate such a thing as meaning anywhere forever ever and ever. If you're right?

I'm not exactly sure what I read here. Are you implying that people who aren't Christians don't find meaning in life and can't be moral while saying that you know Jesus Christ more than you could know any living and actual existing human out there? Have you even read the entirety of the Bible?

Also: You didn't answer the question. At all.

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Why do innocent people starve?  No innocent people starve. The scriptures say no one is innocent from the baby to the corpse. We all deserve to die. In fact it's a mercy that the best of us and the worst of us live at all. The scriptures also say life is gonna be messy and the least culpable will get taken out by accident, unintended consequences, and the deliberate sins of the more culpable.  The obvious answer is people starve because they can’t grow food, find food, or  get somebody who can, to give them food.  God has provided plenty of food in the world by creating nitrogen and food and people who make farming work dependably and efficiently. So you can’t blame the creator. It’s the fault of evil people that anyone starves. It's our fault and the fault of demons that people starve. I know you don't believe in demons. I just threw that in to get your blood up. But still, Beware!

God has made it clear that he isn’t going to stop every bad thing. If he did you would complain because he’d have to stop your bad things too.  And, you wouldn’t like it. You like being bad once in a while. You would hate God even more even if it meant people didn’t starve any more.  He is not a puppet master. He appeals to us to be righteous. Because,  that’s the only thing that would work.  The universe will never be right if policemen are required to make it so.

Didn't even answer the question. And I am appalled that you think a baby is NOT innocent and also think that every one of us supposedly deserves death while getting punished for eternity for finite sins. It is ultimately YOUR GOD'S FAULT IF IT EXISTS that we have all these problems today. He is supposedly omniscient, omnipotent and benevolent. No free will involved, he set everything up and he's kind.

So what does the current state of the world say about him? Absolute shit.

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Next question:
Why does God demand the death of innocent people.  For Working on Sabbath. I don't know and see my previous answer. I do know that Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man and not man for the Sabbath.I don't understand it and probably wouldn't order it myself and probably would screw things up being emotional about it, think Bruce Almighty. I deeply believe that God does all things well. I'll find out in Heaven what the deal was about  and I'll be alright with it; but like God I'll be  sad about it a long time. I hope you will believe someday that God does all things well.

Um..if you don't understand it, shouldn't you be asking questions about it? You're just running away from addressing things that could potentially wreak your "faith". I know I did when I was a Christian.

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If  you were God or even a dictator,  or anyone was, I bet there would be quite a number of people that would get erased for one reason or another. You pick your reasons, let God pick his.

So might makes right?

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Being modern western/Hellenic type like you I think and  feel like maybe God  was  over reacting.  Even Moses pleaded with God not to destroy the Israelites after  the Mount Sinai Orgy. Moses was afraid it would make God look bad to the surrounding nations. The ancients weren’t ignorant of public relations. Neither is God. I think he purposely presents himself in difficult light because he filtering for the enthusiastic.  He loves the persistent and passionate.

...Please read what you just wrote. Seriously.

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But, I wasn’t there and I don’t know all the issues. I suppose if there was a dreadful lingering disease,  extremely contagious, and incurable, like sin is,

Do you even know what sin is?

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we would find our selves agreeing to some pretty awful things about people that caught it. I personally don’t think desecrating the sabbath is as bad as that , but I’m not God. I didn’t invent the Sabbath or the world. I’m sure he has lots of issues to deal with in a world as warped by sin and evil as ours. In fact I’m surprised he lets any of us live, as cruel as the best of us are to each other, even  if only cruel occasionally or when we were kids.  Liberals find it easy to fantasize that  the world might be better off without the human race. That we are generally a blight  and a danger to the  earth and it’s creatures. I bet liberals, socialists, communists, atheists and environmentalist would have a long list of people they would like to exterminate.  Conservatives feel that sometimes too.  It’s easy to judge God. We do it to each other all the damn long day.  And he never strikes us down.

Well uh, judging from what I've read so far, you:

A) Have doubts to what God did in the Bible.
B) Didn't read the entire Bible.
C) Are avoiding the issues at hand that could make you not a Christian
D) Don't realize that punishing people for what they were supposed to do all according to the designs of God for eternity is wrong.
E) You've never actually seen suffering.

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Why does the Bible have so much anti-science non-sense?  Now you guys got to make up your mind.  You insist that the Bible is not a science book so why would you expect it to agree with your take on science.  While I’m at it.  You think creationists know nothing about science and are anti science.  The truth is the educated and uneducated Christians have no problem  accepting 99% of scientific knowledge. We have problems with evolution producing new species (not even science agrees on what the hell a species is), we know natural selection happens, we call it micro evolution. We can see that, you can measure it but no one has seen serious specieation happen. A few birds on islands were given species status  but they are still birds very much like their original source birds.

...Look, evolution does not produce a "new species" out of random. Please actually read what the Theory of Evolution is and what a species is according to what everyone agrees on after thousands of observations, experiments and other methods of verifying the theory and the definition of a species.

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We basically think dogs have some sort of dog and cats some sort of cat. And it’s never changed and isn’t ever gonna’ change.  That's obvious to us and should be to you. You have never seen a new species being born from another species. You do see change that's all. How far it goes you have no idea. You extrapolate from fossils and bones far more than you have any right doing scientifically speaking. You're basically flipping a coin a million times. Even Evolutionists used to trace the Human race to one pair, which would be obvious to anyone. But now they deny that because it's too much like Adam and Eve. We say after the first human  two modern humans all their progeny were a variety of modern human.  You might believe  neanderthals and modern humans are separate evolutionary lines of sentient beings. But if you say they can interbreed you are just admitting they are the same species. Maybe different races but definitely both human. Different species can't produce viable progeny by definition. Many types of Roaches and some other creatures have been around for ever and hardly changed at all. That’s not even possible according to mutational theory. They would have to change. But, they haven't.

You're not even talking about the Theory of Evolution, you're talking about a Theory of Evolution that was made up by Creationists so they can attack their own Theory of Evolution to make it seem that they are attacking the Theory of Evolution and being right. By the way, you still haven't answered the question:

Why is there so much nonsense in the Bible that goes against all sciences?

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We also have problems with your insisting we’re crazy for believing in a world wide flood we never saw; even tho it looks like something really heavy happened to this world which your people use to think was ruled by uniformitarianism. You’re coming our way when you now agree the world has suffered much cataclysm.  The stuff you believe, and it is  often a belief based on some over reaching projections built on a thousand assumptions--- like the physics here has to be the same everywhere else in the universe. You don’t know that , won’t ever know that ‘cause you’ll be lucky to make it to the next star before science plays it’s final card and delivers us the technology and the philosophy that causes’ us to destroy our selves. Good bye human race if you’re right about no God and no savior.  Science has been a great blessing but sooner or later it will be the maximum curse. It’s only a matter of time before some science enabled war or science created accident destroys every living  human.  bye, bye.

...SIGH. You have no idea what you're talking about, also, regarding that world wide flood you think happened:

If Adam lived to be approximately 900 years old after 'year zero' when the Garden of Eden was created (in the first week of the creation of Earth which was formless and full of darkness according to the Bible), then we can trace the age of the existence of Earth and life on it from him to Cain to Enoch and from Enoch to Abraham and from Abraham to David and from David to Jesus and from Jesus to present day.

What we then have here is roughly 6,000 to 12,000 years or so (if you wish to include the thinking that a day for God when he was creating stuff in Genesis is ~1,000 years) that accounts for the entire timeline of life on Earth and the Earth itself stretching back to when God supposedly made the stars, the sun, the moon and the oceans/lands for the planet.

However, accurate radiometric dating and other dating methods that have proven to be extremely reliable on part of geologists and other experts show the Earth to be approximately 4.5 billion years old.

Going back to the Genesis account of the global flood, Noah was 500 years old which would make the Earth obviously more than 1,000 years old but a few thousand years old regardless.

Evidence for a global deluge merely a few thousand years ago do not exist at all despite what Creationists or other flood advocates try to dig up.

Erosion, particularly glacial erosion, which features in geographical marks takes a long time, a time of millions of years. Furthermore the existence of multiple civilizations at the alleged time of the global floods, the diverse deposits of various minerals, the presence of clonal colonies that are tens of thousands of years old, (if not millions) the vast geological placement of millions of species, the presence of fossils along with the geological layers show no such catastrophic disturbance or injuries as to suggest that there was a worldwide flood a few thousand years ago.

None whatsoever.

At most you had a total of 8 people of working on the ark (a few more wives if you consider the fact that the Bible says Shem, Ham, and Japheth were born in the same year when Noah was 500 years old while not saying whether or not they were triplets). The 8 being: Noah, his wife, his sons and his sons' wives.

We are told that God commanded Noah and presumably seven other people to build an ark around 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high (from cubits) and pitch the entire thing. Pushing aside the problem of making such a large amount of pitch from wood while constructing such a colossal ship of gopher wood, you also have to consider the unspeakable amount of labor the same 8 people had to put in to gather (conservative numbers following) hundreds of thousands of species of every bird, animal and presumably plants, insects and other things that "creepeth".

It is impossible, both mathematically and logically impossible that 8 people in the general Mesopotamia area could gather two of every species throughout the world we see today (because evolution could not possibly have worked in less than a few thousand years for such biodiversity) and put them into a wooden boat that's 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high.

Moreover, the millions of species of fish we see today are both salt-water and fresh-water fish which means that such a worldwide flood would have undoubtedly killed a large number of them. Not only would have thousands of species of fish died but coral reefs (which are millions of years old) would have as well considering such a large flood that would cover "the mountains" (I'll take this to mean Mount Everest is included as well) would wreak havoc on the coral reefs and other ecological habitats.

Then even if you did somehow gather two of everything that creepeth (which are somehow either "clean" or "unclean") and shoved them Tetris-style into the ark, there is the problem of logistics. Noah would need to take care of all of these species with food (special foods for each distinct species) and take care of their needs such as cleaning them and shoveling out their feces while at the same time effectively separating species hostile to each other. All this and more for "150 days" (or "40 days") of pounding rain that covered Mount Everest.

Besides the logistics and the gathering two/seven of every species, you also need to take into consideration that the worldwide flood would have immediately killed all those on the ark due to the the significant decrease/increase in the levels of oxygen and other gases, never mind the fact that the inner decks and sections of the ark couldn't have circulated ventilation for the living beings inside it.

Moreover, even after they do survive and land on a mountain, how long will it take for the soil or land to become habitable or fertile? Implications of this would include Noah and his family having to continue taking care of all the species of Earth while waiting for the nutrients in soil to replenish so they can start farming and fend for themselves.

Also, HOW did the water recede? It just says it decreased after God "closed the windows of heaven". Is there a giant bath plug in Earth somewhere that we haven't found? Flood waters CANNOT recede if the ground beneath them are too wet. If the ground is too wet, then it CANNOT absorb water until it is dry again. And we are not talking about some local floods, we are talking about a GLOBAL flood that covers EVERY inch of the world while rainfall continues. At that rate, all that ground becomes too wet and the water stays on top for a VERY long time.

As for the ark:

Caligula's Giant Ship was approximately 341 feet long and would have been incredibly unstable for waters. The USS Dunderbeg was 377 feet long and is considered to be the longest wooden boat ever built. The USS Dunderberg was hardly stable and very barely could travel even WITH metal supports and no pitch. In naval architecture, such an unstable ship is considered a hazard for the crew and "miraculous", in the case of the Dunderberg, if it did not have an incident on its maiden voyage. Now take Noah's ark into account, which was allegedly 450 feet long, 73 feet longer than the unstable USS Dunderberg but was NOT supported by metal or any other state-of-the-art components.

Looking at Noah's Ark, what exactly IS gopher wood? No one knows. Regardless of what type of wood it was, Noah's ark could NOT have endured the heavy rain and the subsequently disturbing movements of the water even if it was pitched and made of "gopher wood". If such ships were stable in such scenarios, we would still be building destroyers and frigates out of wood. But they have proven not to be stable and so we rely on other materials for sturdier and bigger ships that can endure harsh weathers out at sea.

Again, if you want to argue the involvement of God in the story of Noah's ark. That God provided EVERYTHING for Noah or that Noah had other unnamed helpers, or that the world was one continent, all of that is never said in the Bible, nor would there be any evidence even if such things were mentioned such as a one continent world that existed a few thousand years ago.

If you wish to argue that simply because the Bible does not mention God did not teleport animals (Gen. 6:20 does say that the creeping things did come unto Noah, but seemingly only by their abilities alone which would lead to the question of how penguins and others traveled) from all over the world to Noah or kept repleting food supplies aboard the ark but 'He' did, then there are a few reasons why this argument would fail:

A) It is not mentioned in the edited Bible that God helped Noah, if this is to be argued then I can argue that God actually ordered the serpent to test Adam and Eve simply because it is not in the Bible.

B) The Bible just says God commanded Noah to build the ark of gopher wood and to pitch it and gather animals and so on and so on. Nothing else. It does not say God provided for Noah or God helped Noah much like he did for others in the later stories of Moses, Aaron, Joshua and quite a few other people.

C) In fact, the Genesis account of the flood seems to have a God who only commands, leaves, acts and then comes back to check things out as 'He' remembers "Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark." (8:1) and THEN stops flooding the planet.



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Delusions:
You seriously think you have no delusions. The definition of being Human is to be deluded.

Yes and no it is not.

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That’s why Jesus said the truth would set you free. It’s delusion to think rationality, Aristotelian thought process, and science will save us. Because we rarely think rationally. We’re deluded because we think we often can be and do act rationally. When we usually act emotionally. Only rarely do we act purely rationally.  That’s  proof we need a savior. We not gonna’ save our selves.

So we might as well sit by and do nothing while people die and get killed of disease and wars and furthermore don't do anything to clean up trash near ecological habitats while not doing anything about pollution. Great.

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We think you’re equally deluded when you try to tell us what happened billions of years ago, which you haven’t applied the scientific method to--- which is to measure, observe (the real creature in the actual environment,  not just it's bones, or some computer simulation), to experiment, reproduce outcomes, hypothesize and conclude. You go right to the conclude based on highly interpretive views of the evidence.  Science  dares to extrapolate billions of years into the past, using highly misunderstood evidence,  when science rarely can  predict the weather 6 days ahead of time or the path of a hurricane. We look at the wonders of nature and the heavens and want to worship. You look and say where’s the evidence for God. Are you insane?  Or just totally deluded?

Conclusion: You are indeed deluded. Talking about how you "know" Jesus Christ, how you believe there was a world wide flood merely a few thousands years ago, that a loving God would punish his creations for what they were supposed to do for an eternity in a lake of burning fire, that science is bad when it incidentally disproves an aspect of your God, that praying helps more than medicine, and that babies aren't innocent.

Seriously. Read what you write, read the Bible, look at the world and come back.


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Why did God tell Israel to stone disobedient children?

My translation says incorrigible children.  Really bad children. Yes, there are really evil children. And I would be for it if the state could be trusted not to screw up it's investigation into who is incorrigible which it can't help but screw up. Gov'ts have more than proven that they don't deserve that power.

I remember hearing a social scientist say when asked …why are human’s so social and why do they get along as good as they do. He said capital punishment. Until recently anyone who was a bully got killed or banished which is the same as killed in those day. We selected for the most peaceful, cooperative, docile and  agreeable types.  I wouldn’t mind seeing really twisted uncooperative children done away with but it ain’t gonna happen and I’m not pushing for it. We’d have a lot less people growing up to brutalize their kids if we did.  Can you imagine that our present race is more civil than previous generations. Man, they must have been awful back then. Lord save us from ourselves. Amen and sincerely  [name redacted]

response to <video>

the other five questions to us  you gloss over so will I too.

I [name redacted] fellow traveler sincerely wish you every good thing.

Well...I was disappointed by this mail. Didn't even answer all of the questions nor any of the questions the sender addressed. Typical bullshit that talks about how there's no good people in the world, that all women, children and men deserve an eternity in a hell, and how science is wrong about everything when it comes to things that might make Christians doubt the existence of their God.



TL;DR?

The guy preaches. End.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 09:59:10 AM by C »
The Second C

Offline jetson

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2011, 09:51:51 AM »
C...another forum member with the patience of a saint... ;D

Offline C

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2011, 09:59:59 AM »
^^^^

Honestly, I was getting more and more irritated and impatient as I read on.
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Offline jetson

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2011, 10:03:16 AM »
Indeed, I am now able to "speed read" through crappy, poorly worded, and poorly thought out replies such as the one above with great ease.  It is as easy to spot as a pink monster-truck in a mall parking lot (analogies are not my forte).

But alas, it does need to be taken apart, piece by piece, because the person who wrote the letter has probably never been to a forum full of  - gasp  - non believers!

Offline Nick

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2011, 10:16:21 AM »
What ???  There are non believers here?  Why was I not informed of this?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline C

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2011, 10:19:41 AM »
Well Nick, the truth is- JETSON GET THE TRANQUILIZER!
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Offline Historicity

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2011, 10:28:08 AM »
I like this one:  It makes a very literate[1] case for the warm fuzzies.  Mostly he evades and says he likes to interpret the universe and chance as being manipulated by a Cosmic Mind.

He makes no reference to circular reasoning and there's a likely reason for that.

I like his thesis that since children misattribute agency (cause and effect) that we should maintain that while growing up so we can all still believe in God (or Gods -- like all moderns he does not touch on polytheism).  He unfortunately does not see the difference between a childlike sense of wonder and a childish one.

He knows how to slip in a gratuitous insult: "Liberals find it easy to fantasize that  the world might be better off without the human race."   Excellent use of the Fallacy of the Undefined Plural. I surmise he's referring to the obscure  VHEMT movement. A first reading of that means all liberals.  If confronted he can move the goalposts and say it is most liberals -- still a plural.  Ultimately it could go down to the minimal definition of plural -- only 2.  He could still maintain plausibility deniability. Clever fellow!

A thought occurs to me following on the general run of his thesis. Does someone win the lottery and set a good example of behavior with new found wealth?  God did it.  Does someone undeserving win the lottery and set a bad example of dissipation.  God did it to show us we'd be happier poor.  Does someone undeserving win the lottery but doesn't set the necessary bad example?  God is testing us. Maybe he has allowed the Devil to do that so we will be tempted into gambling.  Ergo: God exists.
 1. My definition:  Light on spelling errors.  Grammar and syntax.  One sentence follows another.  I am also comparing myself.  The choppy, jumpy way I write is the way I think.  I can rarely read my own stuff a few days later and not wince.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 12:26:13 PM by Historicity »

Offline Historicity

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2011, 11:38:46 AM »
And, for saying you don't even deserve to live, you'll also get a fabulous dinner with Jesus, the Christ!  Don't eat too much prior to this main event, because you're in for a truly magical feast of bread and fish, and it's all you can eat!
Jetson, Jetson, you are denying the Real Presence in Communion. 

As a note on another site yesterday I read some atheist repeating the meme that St. Paul never quoted Jesus.  I've read thai on this site, too.  WRONG!

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1 Col 11:24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, "Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me." After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me."

11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come. Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

There you go.  St. Paul was a Protestant and the Communion is what the Jews call a required observance, done just as a remembrance.  Ignore the weird "guilty of the body and blood".  Paul often states he is not a rational thinker and denounces rationality. 

Let's crossreference it, however:
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Mat 26:26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is my body."  And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, "Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

Mar 14:22 And as they did eat, Jesus took bread, and blessed, and brake it, and gave to them, and said, "Take, eat: this is my body."  And he took the cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them: and they all drank of it. And he said unto them, "This is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many."

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, "This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me." Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you."

Luke agrees with Paul so Luke is another Protestant.

John gets weirdly different.  He recalls that Jesus had a last supper but not a Last Supper.  He doesn't accuse Judas before or after but the narrator -- like a novelist -- explains what Jesus was thinking.  Then, Jesus performs the Last Foot Washing and describes that in mystical terms.  It's odd that no denomination AFAIK does that as a sacrament.  But in another context the same theology is laid out:
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John 6:48 "I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

Then Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever." These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
Twilight Saga!

So, Jetson, in the Heavenly dinner with Jesus there will be fish and bread, and Jesus' flesh and blood. 

Okay, Jetson, you and I are exaggerating and misconstruing.  Jesus didn't say these things would be in Heaven.  But did Jesus say there would be any real food in Heaven?  Yes.  Going back to the Last Supper:
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Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.

Mark 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Luke 22:18 For I say unto you, I will not drink of the fruit of the vine, until the kingdom of God shall come.

Probably that won't be in Heaven for certain but is during the Millenium when God rules directly on Earth for 1,000 years before the Devil is let loose to start one more rebellion and then is cast into the Lake of Fire.  Something like that.

     In Heaven there is no beer.
     That's why we drink it here.
     And when we're gone from here
     Our friends will be drinking all the beer.
     ------ chorus from a polka

Ahhh, but there may be wine in Heaven (depending on what your theology says "the Kingdom of God" is).  So you can wash down the fish, bread, flesh and blood.


A more significant point is this:  Atheists like to poke fun at fundy inerrantists over contradictions as to the date of a king's accession or the number of troops at a battle because the OT historians were amazingly careless about numbers.  But more liberal believers say that the spiritual stuff on which doctrine and belief turn are the only inerrant parts.  But as I have shown above the Bible has contradictions over what Jesus said on doctrine.



Offline Historicity

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2011, 11:45:49 AM »
Can someone do something to revise the forum's software or will the mods please allow Pianodwarf to have a sock puppet to edit these mail bag entries?

It hurts my soul[1] to see "Quote from pianodwarf" followed by dumb stuff he would never say on the next line.  Yes, I know at an intellectual level that he did not say or endorse it.  It just makes me wince.
 1. Defined as my collective warm, glowy feelings.

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2011, 11:56:04 AM »
Hi,

Hello.

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I was doing some creation research pro and con and came across your 10 questions that theists need to answer.  I know I’m not going to change a persons mind with one letter but I want to take up the challenge and ask you to answer these questions also.  Your questions deserve answers.  Your questions are credible. So are mine.

Ok.


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You love to use the word obvious. It’s obvious to you that there is no creator. So, if the obvious is so powerful let me use it. It’s obvious life didn’t design itself, or create itself, because matter didn’t either nor energy.  Why do protons and electrons and quarks even do what they do? Where did everything come from? Can something come from nothing, can information come from no information?  Why does the 4 letter code of dna do anything?. Where did the language that DNA codes come from and why should it work at all?

These are all good questions, at least they are if you're looking for answers...


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It’s obvious to us that first life did not ever create itself.  No sentient being has presented a credible experience with a complex process, such as a machine making itself. Obviously nothing that we know was made was made without a mind.  We can conceive of such an event being self sustaining even for a very long time such as seeds to plants to seeds to more plants. It’s the first plant we have trouble seeing anything obvious about, except a mind being the first prime motivator of it. So, obviously there is a mind behind life.

... and here, it's obvious you're not looking for answers.  You've just plugged up those holes in our knowledge with the god of the gaps.  Whee...  &)


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You say there’s no creator to answer prayer, because amputees never get their limbs back.  Therefore pray obviously does not work.
It’s obvious that the world is lumpy, and the universe as well. We have no experience with any process working in an expected manner perfectly. *snip* *snip* *snip*


Well, that was really disappointing.  Instead of offering an answer, you deliver a VERY long-winded way of saying "god does nothing, just have faith".


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Why do innocent people starve?  No innocent people starve. The scriptures say no one is innocent from the baby to the corpse. We all deserve to die. *snips*

Once more, this boils down to "god does nothing, just have faith"


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Next question:
Why does God demand the death of innocent people.  For Working on Sabbath. I don't know and see my previous answer.  *snips*

Now this one is slightly different.  It's "I don't know; just have faith"


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If  you were God or even a dictator,  or anyone was, I bet there would be quite a number of people that would get erased for one reason or another. You pick your reasons, let God pick his.


You've compared god to a dictator.  That's more telling than you think.


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Why does the Bible have so much anti-science non-sense?  Now you guys got to make up your mind.  You insist that the Bible is not a science book so why would you expect it to agree with your take on science.  While I’m at it.  You think creationists know nothing about science and are anti science.  *snips*

Now this is a long-winded word-salad that fails to address the question.


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Delusions:
You seriously think you have no delusions. The definition of being Human is to be deluded.  That’s why Jesus said the truth would set you free. It’s delusion to think rationality, Aristotelian thought process, and science will save us. Because we rarely think rationally. We’re deluded because we think we often can be and do act rationally. When we usually act emotionally. Only rarely do we act purely rationally.  That’s  proof we need a savior. We not gonna’ save our selves.*snips*

You fail to provide any evidence for this savior of yours.


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Why did God tell Israel to stone disobedient children?

My translation says incorrigible children.  Really bad children. Yes, there are really evil children. And I would be for it if the state could be trusted not to screw up it's investigation into who is incorrigible which it can't help but screw up. Gov'ts have more than proven that they don't deserve that power.

Well, this is coming from the same guy that said babies deserves to die, so I'm not surprised here, but geez...  &)

How do you even respond to someone that proclaims that babies are so evil that they deserve to die?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Ivellios

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2011, 02:55:15 PM »
I like posts like that... babies deserve to die and burn in hell for eternity for the sin of being born. Such willfull defiance and rebellion against God! Can't you see it?

Infant to Be: **** You God! I'm going to get inside of that woman and be born into that world and there isn't a God damn thing you can do about it! Why? Because you're a completely worthless **** that made pre-existence too ****ing boring!

I mean seriously, what other sin would an embryo be guilty of that DESERVES an eternal punishment?

Offline Hatter23

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2011, 08:26:19 PM »
I like this one:  It makes a very literate[1] case for the warm fuzzies.  Mostly he evades and says he likes to interpret the universe and chance as being manipulated by a Cosmic Mind.

He makes no reference to circular reasoning and there's a likely reason for that.

I like his thesis that since children misattribute agency (cause and effect) that we should maintain that while growing up so we can all still believe in God (or Gods -- like all moderns he does not touch on polytheism).  He unfortunately does not see the difference between a childlike sense of wonder and a childish one.

He knows how to slip in a gratuitous insult: "Liberals find it easy to fantasize that  the world might be better off without the human race."   Excellent use of the Fallacy of the Undefined Plural. I surmise he's referring to the obscure  VHEMT movement. A first reading of that means all liberals.  If confronted he can move the goalposts and say it is most liberals -- still a plural.  Ultimately it could go down to the minimal definition of plural -- only 2.  He could still maintain plausibility deniability. Clever fellow!

A thought occurs to me following on the general run of his thesis. Does someone win the lottery and set a good example of behavior with new found wealth?  God did it.  Does someone undeserving win the lottery and set a bad example of dissipation.  God did it to show us we'd be happier poor.  Does someone undeserving win the lottery but doesn't set the necessary bad example?  God is testing us. Maybe he has allowed the Devil to do that so we will be tempted into gambling.  Ergo: God exists.
 1. My definition:  Light on spelling errors.  Grammar and syntax.  One sentence follows another.  I am also comparing myself.  The choppy, jumpy way I write is the way I think.  I can rarely read my own stuff a few days later and not wince.

Yeah, very close to my assessment of his fairly well put together argument, but the holes of various fallacies, very especially any outcome =God...that will be the Judeo-Christian Tri-Omni, of course, lets ignore polytheism and any non-Abrahamic model.

And VHEMT... long time since I heard about them since I stopped hanging out in the Childfree community. They are the ones who take Childfree and turn it up to stupid.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Emily

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2011, 08:53:28 PM »
So you can’t blame the creator. It’s the fault of evil people that anyone starves.

Passing the blame off to others instead of taking acceptability that your god is the cause.

OK, suppose for a minute that you are right. Lets go that route. What kind of sick, disgusting god would allow innocent children to suffer because of their rulers? Your god hasn't stepped in to offer any kind of help for them, yet he is sp eager to help those who offer up a prayer to him. Your god is supposed to be all loving, right? He is supposed to be omnibenevolent right? He's also all watchful. What kind of all loving god would just sit back and do nothing about those who are starving simply because there are evil people that are the cause of their suffering?

You just described the type of all-loving god who would just walk pass a homeless man/woman who is panhandling for change to buy a stale doughnut from the bakery that's offering a special on pastries that are 15 hours old simply because that panhandler wont bow down and suck him off afterwards.

Way to go.

I'm cool with that. I deserve to be dead.

Don't be so hard on yourself. You don't deserve to be dead because your god created such very high standards that no human (ahem, I'm sorry. His creation) can live up to. It's not your fault he's a jerk.

...and seriously. Do you really pray to get your pulled teeth back? I doubt it. The only teeth I've had pulled were my wisdom teeth, and before I got them yanked out of my mouth my jaw hurt like hell. I don't want them back.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 09:11:53 PM by Emily »
"Great moments are born from great opportunities." Herb Brooks

I edit a lot of my posts. The reason being it to add content or to correct grammar/wording. All edits to remove wording get a strike through through the wording.

Offline Irish

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2011, 10:31:25 PM »
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You think creationists know nothing about science and are anti science.

You are correct.  I think creationists are completely stupid or ignorant when it comes to the most basic of scientific principles.

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We have problems with evolution producing new species

What's so difficult about the process?  As members of populations evolve to different and seperate environments, niches, or ways of life they diverge away from each other and the different poplulations eventually reach a stage where they are anatomically/physiologically/genetically different from each other - enough difference to no longer be able to breed or be classified by scientists as the same specie.  Sure I'm skipping many details but the overall process is really quite simple.

What's the problem again?

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we know natural selection happens, we call it micro evolution.

Micro evolution only exists in the minds of creationists.  Real scientists with real degrees and real research do not label natural selection as "micro evolution".  This is a term created by creationists because they cannot comprehend the immense change capable with natural selection.

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A few birds on islands were given species status  but they are still birds very much like their original source birds.

I believe you're speaking of Darwin's finches on the Galapagos Islands though I'm not sure.  However, Darwin didn't just study finches.  In more depth he studied the breeding of pigeons and dogs.  In fact many of the beginning chapters of On the Origin of Species is devoted to the idea of artificial selection.

The above aside, the difference between "bird" and "non-bird" is not made at the specie level but much higher up in the classification system[1] and it calls into question if you even understand how organisms are classified.

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We basically think dogs have some sort of dog and cats some sort of cat. And it’s never changed and isn’t ever gonna’ change.

Actually, it has changed.  Before dogs were dogs they were feral wolves living on the outskirts of human settlements living on human refuse and scraps.  Before that they were wolves in packs.  The modern dog (Canis familiaris) has only been around since the age of civilization and now exists in dozens of different breeds.  What, you think Chihuahuas have always existed?


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You have never seen a new species being born from another species.

I literally typed in "observed speciation" into Google.  It wasn't difficult:

Google search
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation

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You do see change that's all.

That's the whole idea of evolution.

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You're basically flipping a coin a million times.

Evolution is much more than chance and by this statement alone I see you have no actual knowledge of the theory.  The mutations that are part of the variation in a specie are due to chance but the selection of the variants most fit for a particular environment is not random.

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Even Evolutionists used to trace the Human race to one pair, which would be obvious to anyone.

Evidence?  Two people do not make a population and it's easy to see that two organisms cannot begat and sustain a population.  The inbreeding that would occur would kill them off.

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But now they deny that because it's too much like Adam and Eve

I doubt it's because of that.  More due to it being complete crap.

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You might believe  neanderthals and modern humans are separate evolutionary lines of sentient beings.

I don't believe it - I accept it based upon many lines of evidence and reasoning.  Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens  were/are two separate lines of lineage.  What's the problem?

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But if you say they can interbreed you are just admitting they are the same species.

The fact that two species can interbreed simply means their genetic material is compatible to reproduce.  Horses and donkeys are different species (I don't think anyone would dispute that) and yet they can reproduce to produce a mule.  The definition of "specie" is a tricky one but has many different parts other than "ability to breed".

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Maybe different races but definitely both human.

More precisely they are both Homo.

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That’s not even possible according to mutational theory. They would have to change. But, they haven't.

It's quite possible for a specie to remain unchanged for long periods of time so long as the selection pressures against that specie is low.  Lower the selection pressures and you limit the effect of natural selection on that specie.

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We also have problems with your insisting we’re crazy for believing in a world wide flood we never saw; even tho it looks like something really heavy happened to this world

A world wide flood didn't happen.  A world wide flood couldn't happen.  The fact that you defend a world wide flood fraught with holes, fallacies, and illogic bologna speaks volumes.


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like the physics here has to be the same everywhere else in the universe

Is there any evidence to believe that the Earth abolishes the laws that physicists have discovered for something else? You're speaking of stuff which you do not know.

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You don’t know that , won’t ever know that ‘cause you’ll be lucky to make it to the next star before science plays it’s final card and delivers us the technology and the philosophy that causes’ us to destroy our selves.

Uh... what?

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Good bye human race if you’re right about no God and no savior.  Science has been a great blessing but sooner or later it will be the maximum curse. It’s only a matter of time before some science enabled war or science created accident destroys every living  human.  bye, bye.

This paragraph gradually became crazier and crazier.  Not to mention more and more incoherent. I've found that to be a distinguishing feature of the religious.
 1. At the level of Class, I do believe.  Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2011, 10:00:20 AM »
Hi, I was doing some creation research pro and con and came across your 10 questions that theists need to answer.  [...]
Why do innocent people starve?  No innocent people starve. The scriptures say no one is innocent from the baby to the corpse. We all deserve to die. [...] So you can’t blame the creator. It’s the fault of evil people that anyone starves. [...]
Imagine a car manufacturer called, say, "The Great Ford". He produces a couple of car that are perfect. Then one car crashes. In a fit a temper and stupidity, "The Great Ford" henceforward produces only cars that breakdown or crash.

The buyers of the cars all sit around saying, "Well we buy them anyway. How could we improve them? It is impossible, The Great Ford has decreed that this is the way to make them for he put a curse on the first ones[1]Please realise that the Creation Myth is simply that - a myth. It is a myth that many (not all) civilisations have and, if you take the time to look at a few, you will see that they are all ludicrous to our eyes, for we know that they cannot be so and they are simply the imagination of early storytellers.
 1. See that? God put a curse on us. He never forgave us. Even when he sent one of His many sons (see Gen:6 and NT) to earth, He did not forgive us, He allegedly gave us a "work-around"."
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline velkyn

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #18 on: November 28, 2011, 11:10:08 AM »
wow, we have a Christain who evidently doesnt' read his bible at all since he seems to forget that miracles aren't just healing naturally(people weren't dumb back then and they didn't go around proclaiming that a healed cut was a MIRACLE) , that this god had to show off constantly to get people to believe in it, etc. 

it's the usual willful ignorance, desperate hope that atheists can't read teh bible without bursting into flame, hateful nonsense to salve their consciences when children starve, etc.  I would wish that this was just one more Poe or sock but unfortunately there are a lot of TrueChristianstm like this. 
"There is no use in arguing with a man who can multiply anything by the square root of minus 1" - Pirates of Venus, ERB

http://clubschadenfreude.wordpress.com/

Online jaimehlers

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Re: response to 10 questions a Christian or Theist should answer. [#2621]
« Reply #19 on: November 28, 2011, 01:43:15 PM »
Quote from: letterwriter
You love to use the word obvious. It’s obvious to you that there is no creator. So, if the obvious is so powerful let me use it. It’s obvious life didn’t design itself, or create itself, because matter didn’t either nor energy.  Why do protons and electrons and quarks even do what they do? Where did everything come from? Can something come from nothing, can information come from no information?  Why does the 4 letter code of dna do anything?. Where did the language that DNA codes come from and why should it work at all?

 It’s obvious to us that first life did not ever create itself.  No sentient being has presented a credible experience with a complex process, such as a machine making itself. Obviously nothing that we know was made was made without a mind.  We can conceive of such an event being self sustaining even for a very long time such as seeds to plants to seeds to more plants. It’s the first plant we have trouble seeing anything obvious about, except a mind being the first prime motivator of it. So, obviously there is a mind behind life.
You posited some good questions, but your answer was anything but.  To illustrate, what caused the cause?  Say a mind did have to be the prime motivator of something.  That means another mind had to be the prime motivator of the process which led to the first mind, and then a third mind as the prime motivator for the second, and so on.  A lot of theists like to say that God did not need a cause.  If one thing did not need a cause, then who is to say that other things did not need causes either?  The logic falters however you look at it.

I don't have time right now to respond to your lengthy answers to the ten questions, except to say that you are rationalizing to give God credit for everything good, and to excuse him for everything bad.  Nothing special, in other words.