Author Topic: Should we try to eliminate religion?  (Read 14822 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #261 on: December 07, 2011, 07:46:51 AM »
mark 12

30
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind,
and with all thy strength:
 this is the first commandment.

Interesting.  So in other words, according to Jesus, you can choose to love someone?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #262 on: December 07, 2011, 08:29:44 AM »
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind,
and with all thy strength:

this is the first commandment.

And the second is like, namely this,
 Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
There is none other commandment greater than these.

I see.  So you use every bit of strength and will and time and power you have doing the first thing.....so can you explain what you have left over for the second thing?  If you are truly focussing ALL your efforts on one goal, how can you then manage any other goals?

Sure - one goal can be higher ranked than the other, so you might spend (say) 13 hours a day on that, and 6 on the next, or whatever.....but if your first goal is taking up ALL your time as required, then all the other goals perforce must be ignored, surely?

Actually, that makes perfect sense in the light of Albeto and Alzael's comments - people get so hung up on loving god, that people simply stop mattering. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #263 on: December 07, 2011, 07:07:53 PM »


Quote

I see.


really?

how far?

and to what extent?


Quote
  So you use every bit of strength and will and time and power you have doing the first thing.....so can you explain what you have left over for the second thing?  If you are truly focussing ALL your efforts on one goal, how can you then manage any other goals?

Sure - one goal can be higher ranked than the other, so you might spend (say) 13 hours a day on that, and 6 on the next, or whatever.....but if your first goal is taking up ALL your time as required, then all the other goals perforce must be ignored, surely?


ever heard of multitasking ?

Quote
Actually, that makes perfect sense in the light of Albeto and Alzael's comments -
 people get so hung up on loving god, that people simply stop mattering.

your saying that only God is important?

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #264 on: December 07, 2011, 07:09:31 PM »



Interesting.  So in other words, according to Jesus, you can choose to love someone?

is that what is says?

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #265 on: December 07, 2011, 07:20:53 PM »







Hey tom, welcome to the forum.


thanks ...

Quote
  Do you think you could expound on this a tiny bit?

in a word?

no ...

Quote

 I mean, for 2000 years followers have interpreted this differently.
  For a long while, loving the lord with all thy heart, soul, and mind logically inspired confession of belief under torture,
 kidnapping and political and economic manipulation.
  Massacres were motivated by loving and honoring your god with all the heart,
 mind and soul.   Hardly a simple answer. 
Thanks.

i know why all those things happen.

but -

why would you (or anyone) blame an inanimate concept?

Offline albeto

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #266 on: December 07, 2011, 07:24:24 PM »
i know why all those things happen.

but -

why would you (or anyone) blame an inanimate concept?

Why won't you share why all those things happen if you know?

I don't blame an inanimate concept.  You're suggesting what the core teachings of Jesus are but won't explain what you mean.  Why the games? 

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #267 on: December 07, 2011, 07:26:28 PM »

Don't forget the hatred, genocide, and the killing. Let's not forget Jesus taught those too.


perhaps you could point to some examples ...

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #268 on: December 07, 2011, 07:39:26 PM »

Why won't you share why all those things happen if you know?


you didn't ask.


Quote
I don't blame an inanimate concept.

you didn't blame religion?
Quote
  You're suggesting what the core teachings of Jesus are but won't explain what you mean. 

i just pointed to 'the core teachings of jesus'.

i 'gotta splan em' too?

Quote

Why the games?

this is why men drink ...

Offline albeto

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #269 on: December 07, 2011, 07:51:47 PM »
you didn't ask.

I did.  You responded,

in a word?

no ...

So now I wonder, why not? 

you didn't blame religion?

I blame people.

i just pointed to 'the core teachings of jesus'.

i 'gotta splan em' too?

Only if you want us to understand what these "core teachings" are.  Pointing to a vague concept isn't helpful.  I'm asking for clarification.  Why the attitude? 

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #270 on: December 07, 2011, 09:15:15 PM »


 Pointing to a vague concept isn't helpful.  I'm asking for clarification.


so,

you don't know what is meant, by love with all your heart,

and

your neighbor as yourself?

````````````````````````````````````````````````

which is strange, as a females 'weapon of choice' is often love  ...

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #271 on: December 07, 2011, 09:43:12 PM »
Tom, who are the "neighbors" that I should love? I don't have any enemies, so I guess people would automatically be classified as my neighbors, right?

Should I love the guy who flips me the bird in traffic because I needed to get in his lane? Should I love the lady who gives me a dirty look while she bags my groceries? Should I love a registered sex offender that hovers by elementary schools? Because I don't like those people, let alone love them because some mythological character in a book told me to love him and those others. In fact, I think the idea of loving just anybody is illogical.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #272 on: December 07, 2011, 09:51:20 PM »


 In fact, I think the idea of loving just anybody is illogical.



you're frigid?

(or a vulcan?)

Offline jetson

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #273 on: December 07, 2011, 09:53:54 PM »
I have to agree with albeto - why the attitude?

Offline albeto

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #274 on: December 07, 2011, 09:55:16 PM »
so,

you don't know what is meant, by love with all your heart,

and

your neighbor as yourself?

My opinion doesn't matter. You've come here to share with us Jesus' "core" teachings.  Does love include employing policies such as converting one under duress lest one be relegated to the depths of hell forever?  That was pretty darn popular for many centuries, but not so much today.  Does love include shunning the LGBT for their own good so they can see the gravity of their "sin"?  Does my neighbor include my actual neighbor who is Sikh and although have lived their entire lives in the US and so have clearly heard the story of Jesus but refuse to believe it?  What about my Christian raised friend who married a Jewish man?  Does he count?  It wasn't long ago, relatively speaking, the Church demanded Jews sequester themselves from certain aspects of society, were legally banned from civil rights, and were forced to identify themselves by their clothing (arguably, the origins of the gold star of david on the coat).  This was done to honor your god, inspired by those who sincerely loved with their whole souls, bodies and minds. 

which is strange, as a females 'weapon of choice' is often love  ...

Oh dear, do I detect some pain here? 

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #275 on: December 07, 2011, 09:55:50 PM »
Yeah, Tom, I'm a Vulcan.  Live long and prosper. &)

Seriously though, where do you draw the line with which neighbor to love?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline jetson

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #276 on: December 07, 2011, 09:58:06 PM »


 In fact, I think the idea of loving just anybody is illogical.



you're frigid?

(or a vulcan?)

tomt,

Either add a smiley if you're joking, or let us all know right now that you are not here for serious discussion.  Have you read the forum rules that you agreed to when you registered?  If not, I suggest you do so right away.  You are not starting off well...and I'd like to see you get off to a good start - assuming that is your intent.

Jetson

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #277 on: December 07, 2011, 10:52:52 PM »
I have to agree with albeto - why the attitude?


not sure what you mean by 'attitude'.

however,

i'd guess that i am so different than you,

i may seem thus ...


Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #278 on: December 07, 2011, 11:11:10 PM »






Quote
You've come here to share with us Jesus' "core" teachings.

news to me ...

Quote


Does love include employing policies such as converting one under duress lest one be relegated to the depths of hell forever?  That was pretty darn popular for many centuries, but not so much today.  Does love include shunning the LGBT for their own good so they can see the gravity of their "sin"?  Does my neighbor include my actual neighbor who is Sikh and although have lived their entire lives in the US and so have clearly heard the story of Jesus but refuse to believe it?  What about my Christian raised friend who married a Jewish man?  Does he count?  It wasn't long ago, relatively speaking, the Church demanded Jews sequester themselves from certain aspects of society, were legally banned from civil rights, and were forced to identify themselves by their clothing (arguably, the origins of the gold star of david on the coat).  This was done to honor your god, inspired by those who sincerely loved with their whole souls, bodies and minds. 



Quote
Oh dear, do I detect some pain here?

yours or mine?

Quote
My opinion doesn't matter.

so there is no reason to respond ...

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #279 on: December 07, 2011, 11:28:23 PM »
Yeah, Tom, I'm a Vulcan.  Live long and prosper. &)

Seriously though, where do you draw the line with which neighbor to love?


what i get is that we are supposed to love 'em all.

 we don't have to hang out with them tho -


```````````````````````````````````````````````````

 lenard nimoy was going to give a talk about some photographs he had taken.

as i live in L.A., i really wanted to attend .

you know it would have been fascinating.

alas, other commitments ...

http://hammer.ucla.edu/programs/detail/program_id/977




Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #280 on: December 07, 2011, 11:59:03 PM »
@ tomt

I see you
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #281 on: December 08, 2011, 12:11:00 AM »
Tom, why should we love them all? How would it make sense to love both someone who is kind to me and someone who is cruel to me?

Even Bible God, who supposedly "loves" everyone, hates people. My bold below:


 "And I will destroy your high places, and cut down your images, and cast your carcases upon the carcases of your idols, and my soul shall abhor you." Leviticus 26:30

"For the wicked boasteth of his heart's desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the LORD abhorreth." Psalm 10:3

"When God heard this, he was wroth, and greatly abhorred Israel" Psalm 78:59



So God gets to hate people. Yet what does the Bible teach about people hating people? There are some mixed messages here:

"Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt." Leviticus 19:17

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters--yes, even his own life--he cannot be my disciple." Luke 14:26

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3:15

"Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies." Psalm 139:21-22



Which is it? Don't hate? Do hate? Obviously, God gets a free pass on hate. And you get to hate others that hate God. Guess that flushes the whole hypocritical "love thy neighbor" thing down the toilet.







« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 01:25:01 AM by curiousgirl »
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #282 on: December 08, 2011, 01:23:14 AM »
Tom, why should we love them all? How would it make sense to love both someone who is kind to me and someone who is cruel to me?

love is a 'power'

possibly the only one which will not leave scars.

the weapon of choice, for self defense.


Quote

So God gets to hate people.

Obviously, God gets a free pass on hate.



in a certain context, maybe.

one's understanding of reality,

why and how things are at this moment,

make a huge difference in how

we see the world.

and should you want to know more,

try the 'seek and you shall' find approach

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #283 on: December 08, 2011, 01:24:20 AM »
Could you be any more vague?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #284 on: December 08, 2011, 01:28:12 AM »
@ tomt

I see you

you mean this?

> http://twitter.com/#!/tomt <






Could you be any more vague?


yes, but only for You


Ready?


Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #285 on: December 08, 2011, 01:34:39 AM »
Wow, Tom, that was moving. Even for a Vulcan like me. &)

Got any other words of wisdom?
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #286 on: December 08, 2011, 01:39:09 AM »
Could you be any more vague?


yes, but only for You


Ready?

Wow curiousgirl you sure do attract them don't you? Just the other day Lance had a big one for you. How DO you do it?

I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #287 on: December 08, 2011, 01:43:45 AM »
LOL @ Jay. I guess it is just my Satanic charm. &)
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."-Carl Sagan

Offline tomt

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #288 on: December 08, 2011, 03:08:52 AM »


 just my Satanic charm.



compromising ones mission will result in withdraw of holodeck  permission ...

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Should we try to eliminate religion?
« Reply #289 on: December 08, 2011, 06:52:52 AM »
And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart,
and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind,
and with all thy strength:

this is the first commandment.

I see.  So you use every bit of strength and will and time and power you have doing the first thing.....so can you explain what you have left over for the second thing?  If you are truly focussing ALL your efforts on one goal, how can you then manage any other goals?

ever heard of multitasking ?
...
your saying that only God is important?

Nope.  YOU did....see your original comment which I've put back in the exchange.  YOU are the one who said that you must use ALL your heart and soul and mind and strength to love god.  So my question is simply that if you are using ALL your blah-de-blah to do one thing, where is the spare blah-de-blah to do something else?

I can either expend ALL my effort on being A, or I can expend less-than-all-effort on A and thus leave some over for B.  What is physically impossible is to use ALL your strength on A but yet have some strength left over for B.

It's you making the logically impossible claims, not me.  All I'm asking you to do is explain them.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?