Author Topic: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention  (Read 5618 times)

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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #203 on: November 26, 2011, 09:32:17 PM »
Lets not argue semantics here...Joe does not approve of semitics.

Semitics . . . I get it!  ;D ;D ;D

 

Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #204 on: November 26, 2011, 09:46:51 PM »
In other words you're saying that rather than he taking responsibility for his own message, you want other people to make up for his own deficiencies. Why do you think anyone should do that?

If Joe is unable or unwilling to be responsible for the words that he himself puts forth, you really expect other people to put in the effort to compensate. We don't let that fly when theists do it. It would be more than a little hypocritical to do it for him, don't you think?

You can't make him clarify.  It's been tried and he refuses.  I don't mind taking the general message he's suggesting and discussing the merits thereof.  If I'm misinterpreting or misrepresenting his general message, that's the risk of refusing to communicate effectively.   I think it's fine to expect the same level of communication from him that is expected of theists but either he won't or he can't.  If he won't there's not much anyone can do about that.  If he's repeatedly ignoring questions, no one can force him to write an answer.  If he can't because he lacks the skills to effectively fine-tune what he's trying to say, I suspect there are more than a few clever posters here willing and able to help him recognize and pay attention to the details he's eager to ignore.  When theists clarify the questions their posts raise, their message is systematically torn to shreds, deservedly.  I just happen to think there's some merit in Joe's message, albeit a message I might be misinterpreting.   The parts that deserve being torn (such as likening religion to mental illness) is discredited with reason, as well is should be, but I don't mind sifting through his message.

You know, as I'm typing this out and thinking about why this doesn't bother me, I suspect it's because I'm still quite new to learning just how to identify the fallacies and articulate my own reasons.  Joe's OP isn't brilliant or a novel idea, but I'm still new enough to the game that this is one of the first times I've heard someone come out and suggest being unapologetic for refusing to respect the folly of theism.  I guess this is a lesson for me as well as Joe. 

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #205 on: November 26, 2011, 09:55:29 PM »
JayB:
Quote
Saying that I 'basically' called joe a Nazi is not the same as me actually saying "Joe, you're a Nazi".
Of course not, but that was my paraphrase of your post. I summarized it in eight words: JayB was accusing Joe of being a Nazi.

If you disagreed with that summary, you could have corrected me straight away.

Quote
In the sense that I was comparing what he was saying to the techniques used by the Germans during that time to marginalize the Jews, your observation was close enough.
You're not addressing my point. Signing your letter with the name of a Nazi was tantamount to calling Joe a Nazi. You could have signed it Himmler or Speer or Goebbels or Goring or Bormann, the effect would have been the same.

Yet you claim that signing the letter Schirach somehow makes a difference to your meaning, and that you had no intention of calling Joe a Nazi.

That's hard to believe.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 09:58:28 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #206 on: November 26, 2011, 10:35:47 PM »
You can't make him clarify.  It's been tried and he refuses.

This alone says a lot about what he is trying to say.

I don't mind taking the general message he's suggesting and discussing the merits thereof.  If I'm misinterpreting or misrepresenting his general message, that's the risk of refusing to communicate effectively.

Except that you don't know what his message is. As you just pointed out. So you're not actually discussing the merits of his message. You're coming up with a message of your own based on waht you perceive to be his argument and discussing the merits of that.

I think it's fine to expect the same level of communication from him that is expected of theists but either he won't or he can't.  If he won't there's not much anyone can do about that.  If he's repeatedly ignoring questions, no one can force him to write an answer.

Not quite the point.

In regards to the ideas that he's been so ineptly tossing out, it's nothing that hasn't been discussed before. Some of them have even been voiced by myself on more on than one occasion (just more intelligently and with a greater appreciation for the nuances of the situation). However the slip-shod thoughts that he puts into what he says and the douchbaggery of his behaviour would provoke a different reaction if he were a theist. Even if his point (however mangled) was somewhat valid. We would largely be dismissing them because the way he presents them is narrow-minded, rather unnecessarily condescending to the subjects (to the point of being rather close to bigoted), and often fallacious.

Take the bit from your post that I quoted above. If that was a theist you were talking about, what would the general reaction be to him?


If he can't because he lacks the skills to effectively fine-tune what he's trying to say, I suspect there are more than a few clever posters here willing and able to help him recognize and pay attention to the details he's eager to ignore. 

But again, why should they when he cares so little about his own message? Better to simply start a new thread with an OP that can actually discuss the points properly, as opposed to proceed forward with a badly done OP, written by someone who either can't think it through properly or doesn't care to. That just leads to a mess of a thread where little gets accomplished.

You know, as I'm typing this out and thinking about why this doesn't bother me, I suspect it's because I'm still quite new to learning just how to identify the fallacies and articulate my own reasons.  Joe's OP isn't brilliant or a novel idea, but I'm still new enough to the game that this is one of the first times I've heard someone come out and suggest being unapologetic for refusing to respect the folly of theism.  I guess this is a lesson for me as well as Joe.

This comes up in a regular cycle around here. It's just that the discussion is usually better done and more interesting. If you really want to go over it, start a new thread with a better OP. More will get accomplished.
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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #207 on: November 26, 2011, 10:39:13 PM »
Except that you don't know what his message is. As you just pointed out. So you're not actually discussing the merits of his message. You're coming up with a message of your own based on waht you perceive to be his argument and discussing the merits of that.

This.
All you're doing is creating your own message while cherry picking the actual message.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #208 on: November 26, 2011, 10:45:59 PM »
You can't make him clarify.  It's been tried and he refuses.

I've answered any question that I thought worthy of my time, you'll notice that I've responded to many of the questions I've been asked. The majority of which I simply direct back to my original post, which was very clear.

I am not dodging Lucifer, I simply don't find his inane questions worthwhile. For example, he asked me "What do you mean by stop religion?" I did not answer. He may think I dodged it, but honestly is it my responsibility to get a dictionary to explain the words 'stop' and 'religion' for him?

He asked me to explain why I think religion, without believers, is harmful. I didn't answer because I never claimed that religion without believers is harmful. Religion has believers, it was a pointless question. Cigarrettes are harmless if nobody smokes them, but if you say that in defense of smoking, you'd be laughed right out of the debate. He would say I dodged it, but I'm not his mommy, it's not my job to tell him what color the sky is when he can look out the damned window. Ask me an intelligent, relevant question Lucifer, and I will answer it. No semantic arguements, and stay on topic.

Quote
Also, given the wording in his OP and his unwillingness to explain the misunderstandings, it sounded like he was suggesting that we should do what many dictators have tried to do in the past - brainwash everyone who disagrees with us so they'll agree with us and, if unsuccessful, lock them away permanently or make sure that they can never express their opinions (remove freedom of speech), or even worse - kill them all.
I do not believe that this is what he meant, but I have nothing else to go on. No clarifications, no confirmations, nothing.

Really Luci? No clarifications, no confirmations, nothing? Really? Lucifer and Jay have both suggested that I want to kill theists, when nothing in my original post suggests that. I was very clear in my original post how we should deal with theists, and there was no mention of violence. I explained several times, that I do not advocate violence towards theists. They continued to push this issue and claim I dodged it. Perhaps they ignore my answer when it isn't the one they want to hear.

SPAJ again Jay. You really must stop injecting your personal opinions into my words. If you want to know what my words meant, perhaps you could begin by reading my words. Not only did I never suggest violence or murder, but I was very clear about how I would go about cleansing the world of religion.
Mock, shame, and embarass. Not stab, strangle, and poison. I'm really resisting the urge to suggest you improve your reading skills. Oops.

And if that's not enough, read my original post! Or if you're incapable of reading it without self-projecting your own thoughts into it, ask someone to read it for you.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 10:47:33 PM by joebbowers »
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Offline albeto

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #209 on: November 26, 2011, 10:46:44 PM »
Thanks Alzael.  I appreciate your taking the time to share that with me. 

:)

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #210 on: November 26, 2011, 10:50:04 PM »
Except that you don't know what his message is.

Except that you do know what my message is! Read my original post. That is where my message is. I'm pretty sick of holding your hand to lead you back to the beginning, where you can find all of your answers.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 10:54:44 PM by joebbowers »
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #211 on: November 26, 2011, 10:55:24 PM »
Except that you don't know what his message is.

Except that you do know what my message is! Read my original post. That is where my message is.

She doesn't, however. The same with most of the others, it seems. Perhaps you should take this opportunity to examine where the flaws in your communicative abilities lie. As opposed to simply directing people back to your original post. Which clearly failed rather spectacularly the first time.

I'm pretty sick of holding your hand to lead you back to the beginning, where you can find all of your answers.

That's fair. I've grown fairly sick of the rantings of a petulant child. However here you are.

Now that we have established this, perhaps you should address the fact that your OP does little to convey your point, which is quite obvious by the number of people who have repeatedly expressed a lack of understanding of it.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 10:59:05 PM by Alzael »
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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #212 on: November 26, 2011, 10:58:16 PM »
I've answered any question that I thought worthy of my time, you'll notice that I've responded to many of the questions I've been asked. The majority of which I simply direct back to my original post, which was very clear.

Id est: "I haven't answered any questions which were too hard and instead pointed back to my OP, which was the cause of the questions in the first place".

I am not dodging Lucifer, I simply don't find his inane questions worthwhile. For example, he asked me "What do you mean by stop religion?" I did not answer. He may think I dodged it, but honestly is it my responsibility to get a dictionary to explain the words 'stop' and 'religion' for him?

There are many ways to "stop" something. For example, you could "stop" the KKK by killing all of them, brainwashing them, arresting them... the list goes on.

He asked me to explain why I think religion, without believers, is harmful. I didn't answer because I never claimed that religion without believers is harmful. Religion has believers, it was a pointless question. Cigarrettes are harmless if nobody smokes them, but if you say that in defense of smoking, you'd be laughed right out of the debate.

This is probably the best answer you've ever given in this thread. I was making the distinction between a religion by itself and a religion with followers. You were not. It doesn't take more than thirty seconds to point this out, but we had to drag this for four five pages.

He would say I dodged it, but I'm not his mommy, it's not my job to tell him what color the sky is when he can look out the damned window. Ask me an intelligent, relevant question Lucifer, and I will answer it. No semantic arguements, and stay on topic.

Sorry, but I'm not arguing (per se) here. I'm asking for clarification. I suggest you look into the difference.

Really Luci? No clarifications, no confirmations, nothing? Really? Lucifer and Jay have both suggested that I want to kill theists, when nothing in my original post suggests that. I was very clear in my original post how we should deal with theists, and there was no mention of violence. I explained several times, that I do not advocate violence towards theists. They continued to push this issue and claim I dodged it. Perhaps they ignore my answer when it isn't the one they want to hear.

Funny how you focused on "violence", when I said multiple things that were not violent, like brainwashing and indoctrinating. If you do not explain the methods by which you want to "cleanse" the world of religion and use the word "cleanse", which has negative connotations, you should be prepared to face "semantic arguements [sic]"

And if that's not enough, read my original post! Or if you're incapable of reading it without self-projecting your own thoughts into it, ask someone to read it for you.

If you took the time to read what you quoted, you'd see that I based my interpretation on your OP but do not think that that's what you meant. However, I have no statement from you to indicate otherwise.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 11:02:05 PM by Lucifer »
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #213 on: November 26, 2011, 11:15:54 PM »
Except that you don't know what his message is.

Except that you do know what my message is! Read my original post. That is where my message is.

She doesn't, however.

Yes, she does get it. You're trying to convince her that she doesn't because her correct understanding of my message doesn't align with your incorrect one.

Quote
The same with most of the others, it seems.

Not most. A very vocal minority. Frankly if my message gets through to the majority, I don't mind if a few don't get it.

Quote
Perhaps you should take this opportunity to examine where the flaws in your communicative abilities lie.

There are no flaws in my communicative abilities, I simply have a low tolerance for stupidity.

Quote
As opposed to simply directing people back to your original post. Which clearly failed rather spectacularly the first time.

It didn't fail at all. Your failure to understand it does not translate into a failure for it to be understood by others. Many understood it perfectly, despite you trying to convince them that they haven't.

Quote
perhaps you should address the fact that your OP does little to convey your point, which is quite obvious by the number of people who have repeatedly expressed a lack of understanding of it.

My point was conveyed to my satisfaction, thank you.
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Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #214 on: November 26, 2011, 11:32:43 PM »

Yes, she does get it. You're trying to convince her that she doesn't because her correct understanding of my message doesn't align with your incorrect one.

Except she has said herself that she might be misinterpreting the message.  She has said twice now that she could be wrong about what you are saying. So no, she doesn't get it. Unless you're using some rather unique variant of the english language that I was previously unaware of.

Furthermore, seeing as how this is the first time we've conversed and I have yet to actually talk about such a thing, you don't actually have the faintest clue of what I understand your message to be. So this really is not a very intelligent thing for you to have said was it?

Not most. A very vocal minority. Frankly if my message gets through to the majority, I don't mind if a few don't get it.

As I mentioned to Albeto. Things like this speak rather large volumes about you.


There are no flaws in my communicative abilities, I simply have a low tolerance for stupidity.

I'll ignore the irony inherent in this statement.

It didn't fail at all. Your failure to understand it does not translate into a failure for it to be understood by others. Many understood it perfectly, despite you trying to convince them that they haven't.

However, as pointed out, you have no idea of what I actually understood. So it would seem that your communication abilities are lacking somewhat aren't they?

My point was conveyed to my satisfaction, thank you.

But not to the satisfaction of the actual listeners. The ones whom you claim you were trying to convince. If you cannot/will not convey your message to the satisfaction of your audience, then for all intents and purposes this was merely an excuse to hear yourself talk, was it not?

So one must ask, why can you not elaborate on your message as requested by your detractors? It certainly would have saved time and effort on your part and everyone elses.

As it stands the only conclusion I can reach is that it is because you are aware of how poor your message is. Or that you are innately aware of your own inability to communicate without resorting to the mentality of a petulant child.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 11:36:54 PM by Alzael »
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #215 on: November 26, 2011, 11:36:22 PM »
Quote
There are many ways to "stop" something. For example, you could "stop" the KKK by killing all of them, brainwashing them, arresting them... the list goes on.

Hmm, where could we possibly find the answer to this. Let's try.... my original post!

Quote
To finally eradicate the plague of religion, the first step is for atheists to come out of the closet, so to speak. Don't be afraid what your friends, family, or co-workers may think. Remember, you are not alone.

The second step is to create an inhospitable environment for religion. Reject it anywhere you see it. Tell your children not to say "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, point out the ridiculousness of the bible, do not allow people to pray for you or bless you, mock, shame, and embarass their beliefs because frankly we can't let people believe their insanity is acceptable.

Print out the more compelling arguements from atheist websites and hand them out wherever you see Christians handing out their propaganda. Make no mistake, they are out to recruit young children because they know only a child is gullible enough to swallow their load of crap. They give out Christian coloring books to little kids. We can't allow this to happen anymore.

If the next generation sees that it's ok to be an atheist despite what their parents have taught them, that society will accept them and that a large number of successful, popular adults are atheists, we can begin cleansing the world of religion.

No suggestion of killing, brainwashing, or arresting. And I even clarified in a later reply...

Quote
If we keep up the pressure, with each successive generation there will be fewer and fewer theists.

No suggestion of killing, brainwashing, or arresting. And further clarified...

Quote
My intention in mocking them is to marginalize them, thus reducing their impact on society.

No suggestion of killing, brainwashing, or arresting. My position was clear from the OP, and further clarified many times. If you still consider that dodging, I'm done trying to get through to you.

Quote
Funny how you focused on "violence", when I said multiple things that were not violent, like brainwashing and indoctrinating. If you do not explain the methods by which you want to "cleanse" the world of religion and use the word "cleanse", which has negative connotations, you should be prepared to face "semantic arguements [sic]"

My methods were already explained in my original post! And teaching reality is not indoctrination, teaching faith in the supernatural is.

Your objection to the use of the word 'cleanse' is meaningless. Pick a synonym.

Quote
This is probably the best answer you've ever given in this thread. I was making the distinction between a religion by itself and a religion with followers. You were not. It doesn't take more than thirty seconds to point this out, but we had to drag this for four five pages.

Perpaps I didn't want to waste 30 seconds on a ridiculous question that didn't need to be asked. You are the only person here who thought I could possibly be claiming that a religion without followers is harmful.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #216 on: November 26, 2011, 11:44:23 PM »
Quote
Except she has said herself that she might be misinterpreting the message.  She has said twice now that she could be wrong about what you are saying. So no, she doesn't get it. Unless you're using some rather unique variant of the english language that I was previously unaware of.

I read her posts, I read her opinions, I read what she agreed with and disagreed with in my message. As I understand both my position and hers, I can tell you that she did not misinterpret my message. You are trying to convince her that she misunderstood.

Alzael your only contributions to this thread have been personal attacks with no relation to the topic and no apparent goal other than creating miscommunication and stirring up trouble. If you have nothing to say that is related to the topic, feel free to GTFO. Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 11:49:06 PM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #217 on: November 26, 2011, 11:47:46 PM »
Hmm, where could we possibly find the answer to this. Let's try.... my original post!

<snip>

No suggestion of killing, brainwashing, or arresting. And I even clarified in a later reply...

<snip>

No suggestion of killing, brainwashing, or arresting. And further clarified...

<snip>

No suggestion of killing, brainwashing, or arresting. My position was clear from the OP, and further clarified many times. If you still consider that dodging, I'm done trying to get through to you.

<snip>

My methods were already explained in my original post!

Great! We're done with that now.

And teaching reality is not indoctrination, teaching faith in the supernatural is.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine). It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.

From my understanding, you are not proposing "teaching", you are proposing "indoctrination". Make kids believe what we want them to believe without question. Care to clarify?

Your objection to the use of the word 'cleanse' is meaningless. Pick a synonym.

My objection is not meaningless. The word has negative connotations, thanks to a few dictators. That is why I edited my posts a while back; to avoid misunderstandings (and thus saving time).

Perpaps I didn't want to waste 30 seconds on a ridiculous question that didn't need to be asked. You are the only person here who thought I could possibly be claiming that a religion without followers is harmful.

How do you determine if a question "needs" to be asked?
Also, note how I was claiming the exact opposite of what you say I was claiming.



Now then, after you answer the questions above, we can move on to statistics on your claims that the majority (emphasis on majority) of theists are harmful to society and/or harmed because/by religion, as well as why you think religion is a mental illness.

Alzael your only contributions to this thread have been personal attacks with no relation to the topic and no apparent goal other than creating miscommunication and stirring up trouble. If you have nothing to say that is related to the topic, feel free to GTFO. Thanks.

My contributions have been requests for clarification and evidence. You provided neither until five pages later, although I'm still waiting for that evidence.

Ignore that. I misread the reply.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 11:59:16 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #218 on: November 27, 2011, 12:05:10 AM »
Alzael your only contributions to this thread have been personal attacks with no relation to the topic and no apparent goal other than creating miscommunication and stirring up trouble. If you have nothing to say that is related to the topic, feel free to GTFO. Thanks.

You were the one who began conversing with me. Not I to you.

I had no intention of speaking to you because, quite frankly, you're boring and uninteresting among your other failings.

My post was addressed to Albeto in response to something that I noticed with the overall tone of the thread and the way you were being handled. There was no need for you to involve yourself in the back and forth, after my last post to Albeto I was finished. So it would seem that since you were the one who involved me, you should not be the one in a position to be telling me to "GTFO". As if you were actually in a position to say such a thing to anyone, anyways. I must say, however, that it is very cute that you think you are.

Furthermore, don't be so presumptious and assume that you know what other peope are doing, when you clearly misinterpret things to be what you want to argue against. Case in point:

You're trying to convince her that she doesn't because her correct understanding of my message doesn't align with your incorrect one.

As mentioned before this was a clear Strawman on your part, and not the first. Do not attempt to portray my words or intentions as whatever you feel like.

As for miscommunication, please show me where I made a deliberate attempt to create such a thing. You do recall that you are required to back up your claims, correct?

You are trying to convince her that she misunderstood.

Again, feel free to demonstrate this.

As a sidenote, I notice you had little actually to say in regards to my last post. Merely another assertion and a blanket statement that really addressed nothing. Including my calling out of your Strawmen.

It's up to you. Do you really want to start playing this kind of game with me? I'm rather short on interest in regards to it, and given your limitations I wouldn't really recommend it, but it's up to you.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Online One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #219 on: November 27, 2011, 12:07:06 AM »
It's up to you. Do you really want to start playing this kind of game with me? I'm rather short on interest in regards to it, and given your limitations I wouldn't really recommend it, but it's up to you.

Semi off-topic here: I would most certainly enjoy watching this. It would make me laugh for quite a bit. ;)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #220 on: November 27, 2011, 12:10:37 AM »
It's up to you. Do you really want to start playing this kind of game with me? I'm rather short on interest in regards to it, and given your limitations I wouldn't really recommend it, but it's up to you.

Semi off-topic here: I would most certainly enjoy watching this. It would make me laugh for quite a bit. ;)

That's because you wouldn't have to participate in it. I'm the one who would actually have to talk with him. Even contemplating it, bores me.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 12:12:12 AM by Alzael »
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Online One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #221 on: November 27, 2011, 12:11:48 AM »
It's up to you. Do you really want to start playing this kind of game with me? I'm rather short on interest in regards to it, and given your limitations I wouldn't really recommend it, but it's up to you.

Semi off-topic here: I would most certainly enjoy watching this. It would make me laugh for quite a bit. ;)

That's because you wouldn't have to participate in it. I'm the one who would actually have to talk with him.

Well, now that you've reminded me of that, I wouldn't enjoy it as much. :(
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #222 on: November 27, 2011, 12:13:33 AM »
It's up to you. Do you really want to start playing this kind of game with me? I'm rather short on interest in regards to it, and given your limitations I wouldn't really recommend it, but it's up to you.

Semi off-topic here: I would most certainly enjoy watching this. It would make me laugh for quite a bit. ;)

That's because you wouldn't have to participate in it. I'm the one who would actually have to talk with him.

Well, now that you've reminded me of that, I wouldn't enjoy it as much. :(

In all utter seriousness, I'd rather do it with BibleStudent. Sure he was stupid, but at least he was interesting.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #223 on: November 27, 2011, 12:17:44 AM »
In all utter seriousness, I'd rather do it with BibleStudent. Sure he was stupid, but at least he was interesting.

Seriously? I see it the other way around, although that might be my unconscious bias at work here.
I haven't met many theists who weren't liars and/or hypocrites. Most of the ones I've met are nice people, but they simply don't realize that they're being hypocrites and prefer to lie rather than risk hurting other people's feelings.

Well, we'd better stop now. Don't want to derail the thread, mirite? ;)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #224 on: November 27, 2011, 12:19:26 AM »
Well, we'd better stop now. Don't want to derail the thread, mirite? ;)

Oh please. The original post derailed it.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #225 on: November 27, 2011, 12:21:39 AM »
Well, we'd better stop now. Don't want to derail the thread, mirite? ;)

Oh please. The original post derailed it.

I disagree. The OP[1] didn't derail it; the OP's[2] unwillingness to provide evidence and constant dodges and insults did.
 1. Original Post.
 2. Original Poster's.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #226 on: November 27, 2011, 12:23:21 AM »
And teaching reality is not indoctrination, teaching faith in the supernatural is.

Quote from: Wikipedia
Indoctrination is the process of inculcating ideas, attitudes, cognitive strategies or a professional methodology (see doctrine). It is often distinguished from education by the fact that the indoctrinated person is expected not to question or critically examine the doctrine they have learned.

From my understanding, you are not proposing "teaching", you are proposing "indoctrination". Make kids believe what we want them to believe without question. Care to clarify?

SPAJ! Who said make them believe what we want them to believe? I didn't. I said teach reality.
Who said without question? I didn't. Lucifer, You are self-projecting. In fact, in referring to deprogramming theists, I said:

Quote
You're not debating, you're teaching, and sometimes the students ask questions. That's ok.

Education or indoctrination?

Quote
we can move on to statistics on your claims that the majority (emphasis on majority) of theists are harmful to society and/or harmed because/by religion, as well as why you think religion is a mental illness.

I make no distinction between religion and it's believers. Religion is harmful, belief in religion is harmful, religious believers are harmful.

Am I the first person to suggest religion is harmful? Are you new here? I had just assumed that that claim was obvious to anyone with any sense of the world, but if you need it explained to you why religion is harmful, I suggest you read the works of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchins, Thomas Jefferson (including the US constitution), and countless others throughout centuries.

You could do an internet search for 'is religion harmful' and find tons of information and statistics, or you could just pick up a newspaper. I don't mean that to be dismissive, I mean it litterally. Pick up a newspaper and I guarantee you will find evidence of the harm of religion, most likely on the front page. Whether it be in the form of violence, persecution, or ignorance, it's there every single day in the news.

This isn't dodging, it's a simple statement of a fact that this website was founded in support of.

Quote
Alzael your only contributions to this thread have been personal attacks with no relation to the topic and no apparent goal other than creating miscommunication and stirring up trouble. If you have nothing to say that is related to the topic, feel free to GTFO. Thanks.

My contributions have been requests for clarification and evidence. You provided neither until five pages later, although I'm still waiting for that evidence.

You are not Alzael.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 12:25:06 AM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #227 on: November 27, 2011, 12:24:09 AM »

I disagree. The OP[1] didn't derail it; the OP's[2] unwillingness to provide evidence and constant dodges and insults did.
 1. Original Post.
 2. Original Poster's.

That just helped.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #228 on: November 27, 2011, 12:32:36 AM »
From my understanding, you are not proposing "teaching", you are proposing "indoctrination". Make kids believe what we want them to believe without question. Care to clarify?

SPAJ! Who said make them believe what we want them to believe? I didn't. I said teach reality.
Who said without question? I didn't. Lucifer, You are self-projecting. In fact, in referring to deprogramming theists, I said:

Quote
You're not debating, you're teaching, and sometimes the students ask questions. That's ok.

Note the bold parts. I didn't say that you said it, I said that from my understanding, you had suggested it. Then I asked for clarification, in case my understanding was wrong.
You have a bad tendency to mock people for understanding things differently than you. I suggest you fix that.

I make no distinction between religion and it's believers. Religion is harmful, belief in religion is harmful, religious believers are harmful.

Which has already been established. However, I think we can all agree that a religion without believers is harmless.

Am I the first person to suggest religion is harmful? Are you new here? I had just assumed that that claim was obvious to anyone with any sense of the world, but if you need it explained to you why religion is harmful, I suggest you read the works of Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchins, Thomas Jefferson (including the US constitution), and countless others throughout centuries.

You could do an internet search for 'is religion harmful' and find tons of information and statistics, or you could just pick up a newspaper. I don't mean that to be dismissive, I mean it litterally. Pick up a newspaper and I guarantee you will find evidence of the harm of religion, most likely on the front page. Whether it be in the form of violence, persecution, or ignorance, it's there every single day in the news.

I don't read newspapers, nor do I need to. I know what some fringe groups do, but you claimed that the majority of religious people were harmful. Now, without a quantifier, per English grammar, you're talking about all of them. I suggest you back up your statement with statistics that show that the majority of religious people are harmful or retract your statement.

This isn't dodging, it's a simple statement of a fact that this website was founded in support of.

Kinda is, but I'll let it slide.

You are not Alzael.

Yeah. Once I noticed my mistake, I edited the post to fix that part.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #229 on: November 27, 2011, 12:34:07 AM »
And if that's not enough, read my original post! Or if you're incapable of reading it without self-projecting your own thoughts into it, ask someone to read it for you.

He would say I dodged it, but I'm not his mommy, it's not my job to tell him what color the sky is when he can look out the damned window.

Raise your fist in victory, tiny ant! The giant passed by you and did not stop to crush you, clearly he is afraid of your superior might! To think that you are simply not worth his time is inconceivable!

I'm really resisting the urge to suggest you improve your reading skills. Oops.

Interestingly enough. These came from the person who just downvoted me for making personal attacks.

Yep.....not a trace of hypocrisy to be found with this one.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.

Online One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #230 on: November 27, 2011, 12:35:22 AM »

I disagree. The OP[1] didn't derail it; the OP's[2] unwillingness to provide evidence and constant dodges and insults did.
 1. Original Post.
 2. Original Poster's.

That just helped.

Explain.

And if that's not enough, read my original post! Or if you're incapable of reading it without self-projecting your own thoughts into it, ask someone to read it for you.

He would say I dodged it, but I'm not his mommy, it's not my job to tell him what color the sky is when he can look out the damned window.

Raise your fist in victory, tiny ant! The giant passed by you and did not stop to crush you, clearly he is afraid of your superior might! To think that you are simply not worth his time is inconceivable!

I'm really resisting the urge to suggest you improve your reading skills. Oops.

Interestingly enough. These came from the person who just downvoted me for making personal attacks.

Yep.....not a trace of hypocrisy to be found with this one.

And most of those were directed at me!
I think the OP has a crush on me. ;)
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #231 on: November 27, 2011, 12:38:53 AM »
^^^^^ Then this could be considered his idea of foreplay.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

"Dying for something when you know you'll be resurrected is not a sacrifice.It's a parlour trick."- an aquaintance

Philip of Macedon: (via messenger) If we enter Sparta, we will raze all your buildings and ravage all your women.
Spartan Reply: If.