Author Topic: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention  (Read 5804 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #174 on: November 26, 2011, 12:46:29 PM »
Do you know how they vote on gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, birth control or other issues in which many religious people let their imaginary friend make up their minds for them?

How they vote (or would vote; AFAIK all those things are legal in my country):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

He asked a question. I answered. I'm not the OP; I won't dodge or focus on replying to a single part of a post.
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Offline curiousgirl

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #175 on: November 26, 2011, 12:57:11 PM »
It won't work to have atheists mocking theists in general.  Historically, people who have gone that route got labeled as troublemakers, ignored in general, and 'dealt' with if they get too rowdy. 

Joe, I agree with Jaime. If atheists mock theists, I think it will strengthen their position in their minds rather than marginalizing them. Christians will just think that Satan is fueling the "angry atheists" to do his bidding, and they will feel justified in playing the victims and calling themselves persecuted. Then they will pray for their mockers.

I do think that explaining facts to theists (like how our planet is not actually 6000 years old) and showing them evidence is the best approach. This is actually the approach that deconverted me. I came to WWGHA at the beginning of my deconversion, and I was having a hard time emotionally letting go of God, but the other members here helped me through that. I had felt so foolish for being a Christian (I had been raised that way), but no one here made fun of me. They just showed me evidence, which helped me understand the truth. If an atheist had made fun of me when I was a Christian, I would have just thought they were angry at God. Mocking just reinforces their delusion. They actually think that Jesus was mocked and crucified, and they want to be like him.

EDIT: I wanted to add that when I did mock theists, it did not help at all. They just ran away after saying they would pray for me.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 01:34:16 PM by curiousgirl »
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #176 on: November 26, 2011, 01:01:10 PM »
Um..  :blank:

Sorry, I didn't include you. I did read your replies, though. The subject of religion being a mental illness isn't that easy for me to narrow down. If someone casually says, "Christians are insane", I can agree with them. If they say, "Every single religious person is clinically insane and should be locked up permanently in an asylum", I would have to disagree. I was some form of Christian up until around 19 years ago. Look at me now. No asylum required(I hope).
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline C

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #177 on: November 26, 2011, 01:09:25 PM »
Well, um, no me not being included in your post wasn't what my post was about. I was just slightly surprised at the tone of your post.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #178 on: November 26, 2011, 01:18:54 PM »
We also know that religion is harmful to both the individual believer and society at large in many ways.

Sometimes, yes.

Well, I guess sometimes is enough for someone to feel the need to create a website called WhyWon'tGodHealAmputees.com, on which you currently have 4413 posts.

Quote
But I know believers who are neither harmful nor harmed by religion.

You do? Well, whoopty-fucking-doo!

Do you know how they vote on gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, birth control or other issues in which many religious people let their imaginary friend make up their minds for them?

How they vote (or would vote; AFAIK all those things are legal in my country):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

Did you hear that, folks? They all vote "Yes" on all four of those issues. What the hell is Sam Harris complaining about? The atheists of the world have erased this problem completely! We can all relax now!

Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #179 on: November 26, 2011, 01:23:45 PM »
Well, I guess sometimes is enough for someone to feel the need to create a website called WhyWon'tGodHealAmputees.com, on which you currently have 4413 posts.

And your point is...?

You do? Well, whoopty-fucking-doo!

The OP said that they were all harmful and/or harmed by religion. I was merely stating that that was not true.

Did you hear that, folks? They all vote "Yes" on all four of those issues. What the hell is Sam Harris complaining about? The atheists of the world have erased this problem completely! We can all relax now!

"They" being the theists that I know. I didn't say that all theists voted this way, for obvious reasons, nor do I see why you were confused, given the fact that you claim to have read all the posts.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #180 on: November 26, 2011, 01:25:22 PM »
Well, um, no me not being included in your post wasn't what my post was about. I was just slightly surprised at the tone of your post.

Yeah, I figured that's what it was. I was getting restless on the sidelines. With all that action going on, I simply could not be just a spectator any longer. Like I said, I disagree with the OP's title, but it sure enticed people to attend.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #181 on: November 26, 2011, 01:50:45 PM »
Well, I guess sometimes is enough for someone to feel the need to create a website called WhyWon'tGodHealAmputees.com, on which you currently have 4413 posts.

And your point is...?

I felt that your answer,"Sometimes, yes", was inappropiately too technical and unsupportive of the OP. The OP got the same vibe as I did. I am not alone.

Quote
The OP said that they were all harmful and/or harmed by religion. I was merely stating that that was not true.

Once again, you were stating the technically obvious. We all know that there are countless, various degrees of harm caused by religion . . . from the miniscule to the overwhelming. When you volunteer obvious, petty exceptions like that, you veer from the important points and may just actually cause the OP to think that you disagree with him.

Quote
Did you hear that, folks? They all vote "Yes" on all four of those issues. What the hell is Sam Harris complaining about? The atheists of the world have erased this problem completely! We can all relax now!
"They" being the theists that I know. I didn't say that all theists voted this way, for obvious reasons, nor do I see why you were confused, given the fact that you claim to have read all the posts.

Bottom line is, if anyone goes back and reads these exchanges between you and the OP, they will come out thinking that you were going against the OP on those particular points. I am not alone.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #182 on: November 26, 2011, 01:54:44 PM »
I felt that your answer,"Sometimes, yes", was inappropiately too technical and unsupportive of the OP. The OP got the same vibe as I did. I am not alone.

It was technical because the OP was saying that religion was always harmful to individuals and/or societies, which is wrong.

Once again, you were stating the technically obvious. We all know that there are countless, various degrees of harm caused by religion . . . from the miniscule to the overwhelming. When you volunteer obvious, petty exceptions like that, you veer from the important points and may just actually cause the OP to think that you disagree with him.

See above.

Bottom line is, if anyone goes back and reads these exchanges between you and the OP, they will come out thinking that you were going against the OP on those particular points. I am not alone.

"I am not alone (on this)" is not the same as "everyone agrees with me". However, even if it was, so what? You can ask for clarification, which I did at least five times in this thread and got nothing but dodges and insults in return. Tell me, how is this any different from the close-minded theists who come to the forum?

Also, I do disagree with the OP on various issues. I asked for evidence because I disagree. I was assuming that the OP had some sort of evidence that he used to formulate his PoV, so I asked for it in order to "fix" my own, if it was wrong. Now I see that I was wrong in my first assumption.

EDIT: Reworded to try to avoid misunderstandings.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 01:59:12 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #183 on: November 26, 2011, 02:12:56 PM »
I felt that your answer,"Sometimes, yes", was inappropiately too technical and unsupportive of the OP. The OP got the same vibe as I did. I am not alone.

It was technical because the OP was saying that religion was always harmful to individuals and/or societies, which is wrong.
Quote
Once again, you were stating the technically obvious. We all know that there are countless, various degrees of harm caused by religion . . . from the miniscule to the overwhelming. When you volunteer obvious, petty exceptions like that, you veer from the important points and may just actually cause the OP to think that you disagree with him.

See above.

When Hitchens says, "Religion poisons everything", I shout, "Hurray!", even though I am well aware of the meaningless, minute exceptions. I dare not say, "Well, you know, Chris, there are some exceptions that are worth pointing out..."


Quote
Bottom line is, if anyone goes back and reads these exchanges between you and the OP, they will come out thinking that you were going against the OP on those particular points. I am not alone.

"I am not alone (on this)" is not the same as "everyone agrees with me". However, even if it was, so what? You can ask for clarification, which I did at least five times in this thread and got nothing but dodges and insults in return. Tell me, how is this any different from the close-minded theists who come to the forum?

Also, I do disagree with the OP on various issues. I asked for evidence because I disagree. I was assuming that the OP had some sort of evidence that he used to formulate his PoV. Now I see that I was wrong.

EDIT: Reworded to try to avoid misunderstandings.

I don't agree with all the dodgings. I, myself, would have given you an answer. If I didn't have one, I would have to admit I was wrong. The OP might feel he doesn't have to answer. I would have. I throw the "I am not alone" in there for my own personal enjoyment and anyone else's.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #184 on: November 26, 2011, 02:22:00 PM »
When Hitchens says, "Religion poisons everything", I shout, "Hurray!", even though I am well aware of the meaningless, minute exceptions. I dare not say, "Well, you know, Chris, there are some exceptions that are worth pointing out..."

First of all, a minority is not meaningless. Look at atheists. We're a minority. Look at non-heterosexuals. We're a minority.[1]
The difference here is that Hitchens is also aware of the meaningful exceptions. I don't know if the OP is, though.
Also, given the wording in his OP and his unwillingness to explain the misunderstandings, it sounded like he was suggesting that we should do what many dictators have tried to do in the past - brainwash everyone who disagrees with us so they'll agree with us and, if unsuccessful, lock them away permanently or make sure that they can never express their opinions (remove freedom of speech), or even worse - kill them all.
I do not believe that this is what he meant, but I have nothing else to go on. No clarifications, no confirmations, nothing.

I don't agree with all the dodgings. I, myself, would have given you an answer. If I didn't have one, I would have to admit I was wrong. The OP might feel he doesn't have to answer. I would have.
<snip>

And if the OP had bothered to justify his PoV, I might be inclined to agree with it, or at least understand it, depending on the evidence presented. This is all that I've wanted and asked for since I first posted here.
However, it is clear that this OP either possesses no evidence for his claims or is just here to post his opinion. If it's the first, then it is an irrelevant PoV, IMO. If it's the second, then this is not a discussion, and the OP doesn't care about "advancing the cause" at all; once again, IMO.
 1. I use "We" here because I'm not heterosexual.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 02:36:08 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #185 on: November 26, 2011, 02:36:29 PM »
However, it is clear that this OP either possesses no evidence for his claims or is just here to post his opinion. If it's the first, then it is an irrelevant PoV, IMO. If it's the second, then this is not a discussion, and the OP doesn't care about "advancing the cause" at all; once again, IMO.

I think it is abundantly clear that OP has no desire to discuss anything. You are either with him or against him. He allows precious little in between.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #186 on: November 26, 2011, 02:52:57 PM »
Also, given the wording in his OP and his unwillingness to explain the misunderstandings, it sounded like he was suggesting that we should do what many dictators have tried to do in the past - brainwash everyone who disagrees with us so they'll agree with us and, if unsuccessful, lock them away permanently or make sure that they can never express their opinions (remove freedom of speech), or even worse - kill them all.
I do not believe that this is what he meant,

Thank you for the part that I bolded. Your whole paragraph seems to be building up to a genocidal climax, and then you admit you don't think he means that.

Quote
but I have nothing else to go on. No clarifications, no confirmations, nothing.

You say you do not believe he meant to kill them. Neither do I. Neither does Jetson. Neither does Gnu Ordure. Neither does a lot of people. That's good.
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #187 on: November 26, 2011, 02:56:01 PM »
However, it is clear that this OP either possesses no evidence for his claims or is just here to post his opinion. If it's the first, then it is an irrelevant PoV, IMO. If it's the second, then this is not a discussion, and the OP doesn't care about "advancing the cause" at all; once again, IMO.

I think it is abundantly clear that OP has no desire to discuss anything. You are either with him or against him. He allows precious little in between.

Wassup, Boy? Did ya come back for some more ass-whoopin'?
Enough with your bullshit.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #188 on: November 26, 2011, 02:58:21 PM »
I think it is abundantly clear that OP has no desire to discuss anything. You are either with him or against him. He allows precious little in between.

And, regrettably (or maybe not), nobody can (honestly) agree or disagree with something they don't even understand.

Also, given the wording in his OP and his unwillingness to explain the misunderstandings, it sounded like he was suggesting that we should do what many dictators have tried to do in the past - brainwash everyone who disagrees with us so they'll agree with us and, if unsuccessful, lock them away permanently or make sure that they can never express their opinions (remove freedom of speech), or even worse - kill them all.
I do not believe that this is what he meant,

Thank you for the part that I bolded. Your whole paragraph seems to be building up to a genocidal climax, and then you admit you don't think he means that.

I am not unreasonable (most of the time). Such a position seems too extreme for any sane person to have, which is why although, to me, it seems like it's what he's saying, I didn't assume it was and instead asked for clarification. However, as I mentioned, I received insults and dodges in return.

Quote
but I have nothing else to go on. No clarifications, no confirmations, nothing.

You say you do not believe he meant to kill them. Neither do I. Neither does Jetson. Neither does Gnu Ordure. Neither does a lot of people. That's good.

See above.

Wassup, Boy? Did ya come back for some more ass-whoopin'?

I gotta ask - what is the point of this post?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #189 on: November 26, 2011, 03:03:34 PM »
Wassup, Boy? Did ya come back for some more ass-whoopin'?
Do you realize how you sound when you act like that?  Take a moment and imagine if someone were to talk like that to you, on a subject which you felt very strongly about.  How would you react?

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #190 on: November 26, 2011, 03:15:12 PM »
Wassup, Boy? Did ya come back for some more ass-whoopin'?

I am a glutton for punishment I suppose ;)

But for the record I never called Joe a Nazi. Baldur Schirach, the name I used to sign my satirical letter, never agreed with killing people either. He went so far, in fact, to complain about the treatment of the Jews he was in charge of relocating. He was not hung as a result of the trials because he was able to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that he was unaware of the murders taking place. He served 20 years for his part. Schirach believed that religion was an abomination and that the problem needed to be dealt with. He did not believe that people should be systematically murdered or even abused.

My main point is that the type of language and calls for marginalizing a belief that people hold can and has lead to disastrous consequences for the whole frickin world.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #191 on: November 26, 2011, 03:27:28 PM »
Quote
How do you avoid this if you are in the position of listening to their arguments and refuting them with logic?

If you're going to to convince a friend or family member that God is imaginary, you can use a light touch, but not so light as to make them think that their position is worthy of debate. Do not concede any Pascal's wager type arguement simply because you love this person and don't want to hurt their feelings. Imagine you're trying to convince a child that his imaginary friend is not real, as that is almost exactly what you're doing.

You're not debating, you're teaching, and sometimes the students ask questions. That's ok. If they won't listen or they are irrational (which they've already proven they are simply by being theists), you may want to agree to disagree for the sake of your relationship.

I wouldn't.

I have to say, as much as I like this approach, it is a kind of social suicide and not all people are capable of being martyrs to the cause.  I have great respect for those who can and do come out and refute foolishness offered by theists, but on a social level, friend to friend, this is antagonistic.  On another forum I like to frequent where debate is the focus, there are lots of theists who think their liberal beliefs are acceptable to both the religious and the areligious alike.  I've started challenging these little ideas as they come up and the result has been general avoidance.  I'm grateful this isn't my real life social network because it would sting to be ostracized by real friends.  This happened enough to me having a child with an autistic spectrum disorder disrupting everyone's idea of what reality ought to look like - it was uncomfortable for them and they left.  It's not like anyone but my immediate family knows anything more about autism.  They left, they found people they were comfortable with, and off they went, never to look back.  I think coming out as an atheist must work much the same way.

I have been reading your comments with interest because much of what you say I agree with.  I too think even the liberal, tolerant xian is harmful to society by setting a foundation of support and strength for the fundamentalist who acts in a dangerous way.  I don't agree with your analogy of mental health illness but I think that's because you don't recognize the neurological and medical requirements necessary for a diagnosis like this, but your point is taken.  I'm starting to understand why the word "delusion" is often applied to faith, even though I think of delusions as a reference to schizophrenia and other mental health conditions. 

I think the idea of mocking the xian faith has merit but like any idea, if applied full-on in any situation regardless of individual circumstances, I think more damage can be done than good.  I see what you're suggesting as a kind of "step-it-up" campaign.  If you find the opportunity to throw in a reminder of how foolish a particular xian thought is, step it up so the reason for feeling embarrassed for having a silly belief makes an impression.   If engaged in a conversation, step it up and don't allow theist arguments to go unaddressed.  In a way I like the no-holds-barred approach, but I think it's a bit of a fantasy to think it will have much success.  I think online it's a fabulous idea.  People can come and go, ideas get planted, there's no personal relationship to jeopardize.  In real life, however, I think stepping up one's private thoughts to be made public is a good idea. 

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #192 on: November 26, 2011, 03:36:37 PM »
Wassup, Boy? Did ya come back for some more ass-whoopin'?

I am a glutton for punishment I suppose ;)

 ;D To be honest, you left with such passion that I was just trying to rekindle the fire. You didn't bite, though. I find these exchanges very entertaining. Even when my typing appears angry, I have never been truly offended on these forums to the point of being shaken. ;)

Quote
But for the record I never called Joe a Nazi. Baldur Schirach, the name I used to sign my satirical letter, never agreed with killing people either. He went so far, in fact, to complain about the treatment of the Jews he was in charge of relocating. He was not hung as a result of the trials because he was able to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt that he was unaware of the murders taking place. He served 20 years for his part. Schirach believed that religion was an abomination and that the problem needed to be dealt with. He did not believe that people should be systematically murdered or even abused.

My main point is that the type of language and calls for marginalizing a belief that people hold can and has lead to disastrous consequences for the whole frickin world.

I know. To be honest again, after reading your satire(I think I read it last night), I looked up Baldur Schirach. It was interesting. :)
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #193 on: November 26, 2011, 04:09:03 PM »
Fewer elementary schools hand out bibles for free.  Fewer communities suggest medical healing is possible through prayer alone.  Fewer politicians advertise the fact that they are completely and hopelessly ignorant about science and are proud to be so.   Fewer parents would send their kids to vacation bible school where they sing songs about how glorious god is, so long as he doesn't fry you in the pits of hell for eternity as you deserve.  Fewer homosexuals are targeted in hate crimes.  Fewer children get raped, and priests who deserve it go to jail because their protected status is an abomination to the moral conscience of any community.  My god man, the list goes on and on.    With each successive generation, those who are proud to call themselves Christians are fewer and fewer until they are rightfully embarrassed to admit it in public and would no sooner think they are entitled to establish their religious dogmas on public policy than we see from pagans and wiccans today.

There is a saying where I come from:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

You have quite rightly outlined how successful the efforts have been. How what "we" are doing IS working. But, to quote Jim Morrison, "We want the world and we want it...NOW!"

Joe fails to acknowledge that his plan of ramping up the attack may not even be necessary much less harmful. The plan must be perfect with no ill effects, otherwise a mental giant like Joe wouldn't waste his time presenting it or debating it. We should just shut up and do as we are told I guess. Leave the thinking to the big boys.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #194 on: November 26, 2011, 04:27:29 PM »
Joe fails to acknowledge that his plan of ramping up the attack may not even be necessary much less harmful. The plan must be perfect with no ill effects, otherwise a mental giant like Joe wouldn't waste his time presenting it or debating it. We should just shut up and do as we are told I guess. Leave the thinking to the big boys.

I know his approach is frustrating in that he's not attending to all the details about which others are curious and asking for more information, but I do think his overall message is worthy of serious consideration.  In the last decade or so there has been considerable volume increase in the garbage spewed by theists.   Ten years ago a politician would have mentioned God during the holidays or times of crisis, but certainly not have built his or her entire platform on the foundation of having unshakable faith in Jesus H Hairy Legged Christ.  Demanding creationism to be taught in schools would have been unthinkable when I was in school - schools are for education and the faith naturally existed and was taken for granted.  Now with fewer people identifying themselves as xian, the "moral majority" is feeling the pinch of age and irrelevance and they're revving up their own rhetoric which offers us one of two responses - ignore or address.  I don't think ignoring is such a good idea and to address it, we really ought to consider addressing it against the intensity from which they are coming.  The more they demand to be heard, the more they should be reminded of reality.  I'm not suggesting burning any bridges, but I'm thinking that simply following the status quo isn't enough.  If it were, the four horsemen of the new atheist apocalypse wouldn't be so wildly popular with an increasing number of the public. 

Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #195 on: November 26, 2011, 04:28:35 PM »
I know his approach is frustrating in that he's not attending to all the details about which others are curious and asking for more information, but I do think his overall message is worthy of serious consideration.

But how do you consider a message that you can't understand because the person who's trying to spread it refuses to explain it?
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Offline albeto

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #196 on: November 26, 2011, 04:40:50 PM »
But how do you consider a message that you can't understand because the person who's trying to spread it refuses to explain it?

Suppress the emotional response you automatically feel when reading his posts and try looking for the "meta" message.   I could be wrong in the message I'm taking out of it and the risk he's taking by not clarifying is misunderstanding and misrepresentation.  There's not much I can do about that.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #197 on: November 26, 2011, 04:41:03 PM »
Fewer elementary schools hand out bibles for free.  Fewer communities suggest medical healing is possible through prayer alone.  Fewer politicians advertise the fact that they are completely and hopelessly ignorant about science and are proud to be so.   Fewer parents would send their kids to vacation bible school where they sing songs about how glorious god is, so long as he doesn't fry you in the pits of hell for eternity as you deserve.  Fewer homosexuals are targeted in hate crimes.  Fewer children get raped, and priests who deserve it go to jail because their protected status is an abomination to the moral conscience of any community.  My god man, the list goes on and on.    With each successive generation, those who are proud to call themselves Christians are fewer and fewer until they are rightfully embarrassed to admit it in public and would no sooner think they are entitled to establish their religious dogmas on public policy than we see from pagans and wiccans today.

I agree. I have made similar arguments on the subject of racism. Racism is dwindling with each successive generation.

What really is bugging the hell outta me is this:

About 6 or 7 years ago, I was reading a science or news magazine. There was an article on Intelligent Design, maybe Intelligent Design in schools or something. The article stated that one atheist said to another atheist, "They(the I.D. proponents) are becoming us". In other words, "Don't worry as much. Their ideology is slowly evolving into ours", or something to that effect. He was probably talking about how they started with the Literal Book Of Genesis, worked their way up to I.D., and will eventually throw in the towel and accept reality.

This kinda relates to your above quoted statement. I tried searching on the internet to find which atheist made that quote. I have found nothing so far. It still bugs me.
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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #198 on: November 26, 2011, 04:47:26 PM »
Suppress the emotional response you automatically feel when reading his posts and try looking for the "meta" message.   I could be wrong in the message I'm taking out of it and the risk he's taking by not clarifying is misunderstanding and misrepresentation.  There's not much I can do about that.

There is no immediate emotional response. Here's what I think of his OP:
<snip>
Also, given the wording in his OP and his unwillingness to explain the misunderstandings, it sounded like he was suggesting that we should do what many dictators have tried to do in the past - brainwash everyone who disagrees with us so they'll agree with us and, if unsuccessful, lock them away permanently or make sure that they can never express their opinions (remove freedom of speech), or even worse - kill them all.
I do not believe that this is what he meant, but I have nothing else to go on. No clarifications, no confirmations, nothing.
<snip>

I do have an emotional response to that (my interpretation of it) - disgust, but it's irrelevant.
If my interpretation is correct, no rational person will agree with it. If it's not, because the OP has continuously dodged and insulted every time I asked for clarification, I will probably never share that PoV.
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Offline albeto

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #199 on: November 26, 2011, 04:50:11 PM »
He was probably talking about how they started with the Literal Book Of Genesis, worked their way up to I.D., and will eventually throw in the towel and accept reality.

When I entered the catholic church I surrounded myself with pretty conservative, fundamentalist charismatic catholics.  Eventually my theology became so liberal that I fell off the map.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #200 on: November 26, 2011, 08:39:59 PM »
JayB, #190:
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But for the record I never called Joe a Nazi.
LOL.

JayB, I summarized your post in post #11:
Quote
JayB was accusing Joe of being a Nazi, which seems unwarranted.
And now, 179 posts later, you decide to deny it? What took you so long?

And your denial is equally ridiculous.

Let me tell you how it was for me; I started to read your post, and it took me a little while to recognize the satirical intent. I then read the bit about identifying theists by some kind of symbol, and realized that you were basically calling Joe a Nazi.

The name at the bottom of your post confirmed the satire. I didn't recognize it, but assumed it to be a lesser-known Nazi. A quick scan of the wiki article confirmed that. Case closed.

And now you want us to believe that you weren't calling Joe a Nazi at all, on the grounds that Baldur Schirach wasn't the worst of Nazis, even though he was found guilty of crimes against humanity at Nuremberg?

That makes no sense at all.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 08:47:19 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #201 on: November 26, 2011, 08:51:18 PM »
I know his approach is frustrating in that he's not attending to all the details about which others are curious and asking for more information, but I do think his overall message is worthy of serious consideration. 

Suppress the emotional response you automatically feel when reading his posts and try looking for the "meta" message.   I could be wrong in the message I'm taking out of it and the risk he's taking by not clarifying is misunderstanding and misrepresentation.  There's not much I can do about that.

In other words you're saying that rather than he taking responsibility for his own message, you want other people to make up for his own deficiencies. Why do you think anyone should do that?

If Joe is unable or unwilling to be responsible for the words that he himself puts forth, you really expect other people to put in the effort to compensate. We don't let that fly when theists do it. It would be more than a little hypocritical to do it for him, don't you think?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #202 on: November 26, 2011, 08:55:26 PM »
Let me tell you how it was for me; I started to read your post, and it took me a little while to recognize the satirical intent. I then read the bit about identifying theists by some kind of symbol, and realized that you were basically calling Joe a Nazi.

<snip?

That makes no sense at all.

Saying that I 'basically' called joe a Nazi is not the same as me actually saying "Joe, you're a Nazi". It was more of a comparative analysis. This is true in exactly the same way Joe never said "We should kill all christians". Lets not argue semantics here...Joe does not approve of semitics.

The reason I did not address your comment was because I did not feel it was vital to the conversation to dispute it at that moment. In the sense that I was comparing what he was saying to the techniques used by the Germans during that time to marginalize the Jews, your observation was close enough.
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