Author Topic: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention  (Read 6725 times)

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #145 on: November 26, 2011, 03:40:19 AM »
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How do you avoid this if you are in the position of listening to their arguments and refuting them with logic?

If you're going to to convince a friend or family member that God is imaginary, you can use a light touch, but not so light as to make them think that their position is worthy of debate. Do not concede any Pascal's wager type arguement simply because you love this person and don't want to hurt their feelings. Imagine you're trying to convince a child that his imaginary friend is not real, as that is almost exactly what you're doing.

You're not debating, you're teaching, and sometimes the students ask questions. That's ok. If they won't listen or they are irrational (which they've already proven they are simply by being theists), you may want to agree to disagree for the sake of your relationship.

I wouldn't.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #146 on: November 26, 2011, 03:51:34 AM »
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Still waiting for your reply to this.

Keep waitin' bub. Let me know how that works out.

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Considering that you believe religion is a mental illness, are you also in favor of mocking the mentally impaired?

Nope. And the difference, despite being obvious, has already been explained to you.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #147 on: November 26, 2011, 03:59:31 AM »
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Still waiting for your reply to this.

Keep waitin' bub. Let me know how that works out.

Is your position really that poorly supported that you can't even give me a single link for evidence and instead resort to dodging like a YEC?

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Considering that you believe religion is a mental illness, are you also in favor of mocking the mentally impaired?

Nope. And the difference, despite being obvious, has already been explained to you.

The difference being that mentally impaired people see the faults in their arguments when other people mock them?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #148 on: November 26, 2011, 04:08:11 AM »
Raise your fist in victory, tiny ant! The giant passed by you and did not stop to crush you, clearly he is afraid of your superior might! To think that you are simply not worth his time is inconceivable!
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline C

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #149 on: November 26, 2011, 07:19:58 AM »
While I agree with pretty much all of your points, Joe, I must ask how general religious beliefs are mental illnesses/disorders. I mean, are you saying that some of these beliefs (martyrdom/crusading/self-immolations) are harmful and deadly to others and to the people who believe them as akin to some mental illnesses we know of or are you straight up saying that these are legitimate mental illnesses?

If the latter, I don't understand, because I was a very, very devoted and idiotic Christian yet am perfectly mentally sound as of now.

Certainly some religions breed stupidity, ignorance and hate however I think that there are degrees of harm religion can do and what kind of religions and religious people can harm humanity. For most of what you said, such as the majority of religious people being harmful, I think you should clarify more on whether they are passively harmful or violently harmful.

And if possible, I'd like you to stop referring to Lucifer or others to "ants" or at least give the statistics/evidence they want. To me, equating people with ants while enlarging yourself as superior is really demeaning.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 07:26:25 AM by C »
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #150 on: November 26, 2011, 08:53:36 AM »
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While I agree with pretty much all of your points, Joe, I must ask how general religious beliefs are mental illnesses/disorders. I mean, are you saying that some of these beliefs (martyrdom/crusading/self-immolations) are harmful and deadly to others and to the people who believe them as akin to some mental illnesses we know of or are you straight up saying that these are legitimate mental illnesses?

According to the National Alliance on Mental Illness, mental illnesses are medical conditions that disrupt a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning. Religion meets that criteria.

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If the latter, I don't understand, because I was a very, very devoted and idiotic Christian yet am perfectly mentally sound as of now.

Many mental illnesses can be cured.

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Certainly some religions breed stupidity, ignorance and hate however I think that there are degrees of harm religion can do and what kind of religions and religious people can harm humanity.

Some are minimally harmful, and some are incredibly harmful. Very few are harmless. This applies to both religions and religious individuals.

I know someone is going to try to derail the topic by saying that many atheists are harmful too. My point is that theists are harmful because of their religious beliefs, which is why I define them by that, not as smokers, child abusers, or other terms that are not limited to theistic beliefs.

One could argue that Nazis weren't harmful except for being Nazis, but then, if we weren't going to define them by that characteristic, we wouldn't refer to them as Nazis.

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For most of what you said, such as the majority of religious people being harmful, I think you should clarify more on whether they are passively harmful or violently harmful.

I don't understand what you mean by passively harmful. Some are violently harmful, some are harmful in other non-violent ways.

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And if possible, I'd like you to stop referring to Lucifer or others to "ants" or at least give the statistics/evidence they want. To me, equating people with ants while enlarging yourself as superior is really demeaning.

It sounds demeaning because it is. I know the forum rules say I should backup my claims, but I don't think that means I have to respond to every single disagreement, misinterpretation, and semantic arguement, no matter how ill-informed or off-topic. Lucifer and a couple of others are just being contrary and trying to derail my topic. I'm going to stick to the main theme of my thread.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 09:11:09 AM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Alzael

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #151 on: November 26, 2011, 09:02:08 AM »

It sounds demeaning because it is. I know the forum rules say I should backup my claims, but I don't think that means I have to respond to every single disagreement, misinterpretation, and semantic arguement, no matter how ill-informed or off-topic. Lucifer and a couple of others are just being contrary and trying to derail my topic. I'm going to stick to the main theme of my thread.

Or perhaps it is, as seems to be the case, that their arguments have some degree of merit to them and you're unable/afraid to acually face them in a way that doesn't resort to ad hominems and childishness.
"I drank what?!"- Socrates

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #152 on: November 26, 2011, 09:05:03 AM »

It sounds demeaning because it is. I know the forum rules say I should backup my claims, but I don't think that means I have to respond to every single disagreement, misinterpretation, and semantic arguement, no matter how ill-informed or off-topic. Lucifer and a couple of others are just being contrary and trying to derail my topic. I'm going to stick to the main theme of my thread.

Or perhaps it is, as seems to be the case, that their arguments have some degree of merit to them and you're unable/afraid to acually face them in a way that doesn't resort to ad hominems and childishness.

Quoted For Truth.

Answers and explanations make more people share your PoV.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline C

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #153 on: November 26, 2011, 09:13:05 AM »
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According to the National Alliance on Mental Illness, mental illnesses are medical conditions that disrupt a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning. Religion meets that criteria.

What if some religions simply just amplify moods, feelings and so on? All religions do not necessarily disrupt a person in their daily lives. In a lot of cases, it is part of their distinct culture and lives.

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Many mental illnesses can be cured.

Right...but having a religion is like having an opinion. You can certainly persuade a person to change his/her opinion, but not exactly "cure" him/her of the opinion.

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I don't understand what you mean by passively harmful.

As in, just not doing anything which ultimately helps harmful causes? You know..like different ethnic groups sitting around and not assisting each other while they get picked off for the local genocide one by one?


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It sounds demeaning because it is. I know the forum rules say I should backup my claims, but I don't think that means I have to respond to every single disagreement, misinterpretation, and semantic arguement, no matter how ill-informed or off-topic. Lucifer and a couple of others are just being contrary and trying to derail my topic. I'm going to stick to the main theme of my thread.

Should you not for the sake of your thread, address every major disagreement and argument? I just noticed that I was not the only one along with Lucifer who brought up your point of religion being a mental illness. I can see where you're coming from but I think most people will see religion as more of a social construct rather than a mental illness..
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Offline jetson

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #154 on: November 26, 2011, 09:13:58 AM »
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Stop avoiding the question.


Stop self-projecting.

I never even remotely suggested violence. You're seeing what you want to see.

Go f**k yourself you self righteous prick. I have no use for you or your hateful rhetoric. I'm done.

Jayb,

This is unnecessary, and against the forum rules.  It would be better to report the post, or just lurk if you don't want to engage anymore.

Jetson

Offline jetson

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #155 on: November 26, 2011, 09:17:11 AM »
Joeb,

You are not required to reply to every question, or specific member, but you should go back through the thread and see where multiple members would like you to respond, and make some attempt to call it opinion, or show some evidence otherwise.

Jetson


Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #156 on: November 26, 2011, 09:39:05 AM »
I was pretty clear in my original post.
If I had to ask you to clarify it, you were not clear enough.  I've been on the other end of that a few times, and it isn't something one can tell just by looking, because one's arguments will generally make sense as they're being put down.

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Wash, rinse, repeat.

If we keep up the pressure, with each successive generation there will be fewer and fewer theists.
Thank you for clarifying that.  But I need to ask, have you considered how you would react to being mocked, scolded, and insulted?  Would it cause you to rethink your position, or would it cause you to harden it in the face of what you feel as undeserved ridicule?  It has been my experience that one person mocking another almost inevitably results in retaliation mockery, and when both parties are engaging in mockery of the other, there is very little that's actually being accomplished.

I suppose it is your choice if you want to do this as well as the other things you mentioned.  Perhaps you should try it out on some theists and let us know how it works out, instead of demeaning the very people you are trying to recruit while ignoring their arguments.

Offline Traveler

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #157 on: November 26, 2011, 09:41:56 AM »
I've been thinking a lot about this lately. There are some of you who want religion eliminated entirely from the universe, equating it to a mental illness. I think I've figured out a part of why I'm so very uncomfortable with that. Mental illness, as I understand it, represents a far extreme of behavior and beliefs that some/many people "normal" people hold to far lesser degrees. A person might fantasize a lot, hold conversations in their head, or pretend to be someone else. But unless and until those activities become a problem for themselves and society, it's not considered mental illness. The minute that person starts thinking that the conversation in their head is from an exterior source that's inciting them to kill, and they actually do it, then they're crazy 'round the bend and action is required to protect society.

Clearly, there are many "conservative" fundamentalists of various religions who are right 'round the bend. And I fully support any effort to get them out of public office and out of our hair. But I still don't understand how the liberal religious person harms anyone with their thoughts and feelings and beliefs. They're not marching around with guns killing abortion doctors. They're not trying to restrict my rights and freedoms. And if we're to start restricting people's thoughts, regardless of how silly you think they are, I just can't see that that's any different than the religious trying to control ours. Some of you have said that they support and encourage and legitimize the crazy fundamentalist's viewpoint. But I just don't see that. The fundies think the liberals and moderates are wrong-headed and evil too. They discount them as not being "true christians" and fight against them, whereas the liberals take our side, shaking their heads at the Sarah Palins of the world.

I just can't help but feel that any attempt to scourge the world of religious belief (as opposed to scourging the world of restrictive religious action) is as bad as attempts to scourge the world of a particular race or other difference. Next will it be the guy who thinks if he wears his blue shirt he'll win the bowling tournament?

My thoughts are my own. As long as my thoughts don't become actions that affect you, I don't see how anyone has a right to legislate them. I feel that I MUST respect the same of religious persons who are not acting against others, regardless of how much I disagree with their world view. How is this different than the radical religious persons mocking and insulting us?
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Offline C

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #158 on: November 26, 2011, 09:50:11 AM »
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How is this different than the radical religious persons mocking and insulting us?

Right, but what others will say is that those harmful thoughts will ultimately become harmful actions which then will justify getting rid of the harmful religion that allowed the previous to happen. Moreover in light of what science and other branches of knowledge has gotten for us, it would be common sense to dismiss these silly notions of a god such as the one in the Bible immediately. As Joe said earlier, it's not oppression if it's freeing them from their delusions.

EDIT: But yeah, I agree with you Traveler. Though I really dislike and disagree with the Christians' and other religious peoples' beliefs that are nonsensical rubbish that sometimes get in the way of things, I am more than willing to respect and protect their freedom of speech.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 09:52:51 AM by C »
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #159 on: November 26, 2011, 09:59:08 AM »
Right, but what others will say is that those harmful thoughts will ultimately become harmful actions which then will justify getting rid of the harmful religion that allowed the previous to happen. Moreover in light of what science and other branches of knowledge has gotten for us, it would be common sense to dismiss these silly notions of a god such as the one in the Bible immediately. As Joe said earlier, it's not oppression if it's freeing them from their delusions.

But it doesn't become harmful actions in most people. In my experience, liberal christians are some of the nicest people you'd ever want to know. They're just as thoroughly disgusted by the radicals as I am. They think the concept of a literal bible is just as ridiculous as I do. The god they believe in is a vague concept that has nothing to do with hellfire, in fact most of them don't believe in hell at all. Or the devil. To them the bible is simply a set of stories, not to be taken literally.  Maybe the liberal christians I know are in the vast minority. That's certainly possible, looking at some of the statistics I've seen bandied about. Certainly the "average" christian I met out in the mid west was different than the "average" christian I meet out east. Here they're just as likely to be into meditation and yoga and pro-choice marches as any of us. I simply can't see what good can come of trying to force them to give up some of their thoughts and beliefs. It feels wrong to me. They are like the kid who fantasizes about being a Power Ranger. Not like the kid who fantasizes taking a gun to school and shooting up the place. The first is simply an expression of creativity and imagination. The second is evil and must be stopped.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #160 on: November 26, 2011, 09:59:22 AM »
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According to the National Alliance on Mental Illness, mental illnesses are medical conditions that disrupt a person's thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning. Religion meets that criteria.

What if some religions simply just amplify moods, feelings and so on? All religions do not necessarily disrupt a person in their daily lives. In a lot of cases, it is part of their distinct culture and lives.

If their religion is a part of their life and culture... that is a very significant disruption.

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Many mental illnesses can be cured.

Right...but having a religion is like having an opinion. You can certainly persuade a person to change his/her opinion, but not exactly "cure" him/her of the opinion.

No. Roger Moore was the best James Bond is an opinion. If that opinion affects a significant number of your day-to-day decisions, and you refuse to change your stance despite overwhelming evidence that you are wrong, it's much more than an opinion.

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I don't understand what you mean by passively harmful.

As in, just not doing anything which ultimately helps harmful causes? You know..like different ethnic groups sitting around and not assisting each other while they get picked off for the local genocide one by one?

Yes, inaction which leads to or allows harm is also harmful.

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It sounds demeaning because it is. I know the forum rules say I should backup my claims, but I don't think that means I have to respond to every single disagreement, misinterpretation, and semantic arguement, no matter how ill-informed or off-topic. Lucifer and a couple of others are just being contrary and trying to derail my topic. I'm going to stick to the main theme of my thread.

Should you not for the sake of your thread, address every major disagreement and argument? I just noticed that I was not the only one along with Lucifer who brought up your point of religion being a mental illness. I can see where you're coming from but I think most people will see religion as more of a social construct rather than a mental illness..

I do address the major ones. I consider this a minor semantic point that is not related to my original post. How would you define a condition characterized by hallucinations, delusions, denial, inability to learn, diminished logical faculties, inability to distinguish fantasy from reality, paranoia, emotional distress, fear, hatred, racism, sexism, abuse, neglect, violence, obsession, and death? Obviously depending on how deep the infection runs., ie how strong their belief is, they may suffer the effects of these sympsoms to varying degrees.

I call it a mental disorder. You can call it whatever you want.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #161 on: November 26, 2011, 10:08:16 AM »
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Thank you for clarifying that.  But I need to ask, have you considered how you would react to being mocked, scolded, and insulted?  Would it cause you to rethink your position, or would it cause you to harden it in the face of what you feel as undeserved ridicule? It has been my experience that one person mocking another almost inevitably results in retaliation mockery, and when both parties are engaging in mockery of the other, there is very little that's actually being accomplished.

I suppose it is your choice if you want to do this as well as the other things you mentioned.  Perhaps you should try it out on some theists and let us know how it works out, instead of demeaning the very people you are trying to recruit while ignoring their arguments.

You misunderstand my intention. I believe that most theists can't be deprogrammed. Some that are on the fence may come over to our side when they realize how ridiculous their beliefs are, others will dig in their heels. My intention in mocking them is to marginalize them, thus reducing their impact on society.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline C

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #162 on: November 26, 2011, 10:10:52 AM »
If their religion is a part of their life and culture... that is a very significant disruption.

You pretty much just dismissed dozens of sophisticated and generally harmless cultures good sir. What of Confucianism? Many consider it both a religion and a societal system to live by in various parts of the world. Respect for the elderly, care for your family, familial honor, proper manners, respect towards ancestors and so forth doesn't seem to be very disruptive. Also, Buddhism in Tibet and other areas is huge; peace, love, humility and care are part of the way of people's lives as promoted by the religion. What of Taoism that promotes tranquility with man and balance with nature?

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No. Roger Moore was the best James Bond is an opinion. If that opinion affects a significant number of your day-to-day decisions, and you refuse to change your stance despite overwhelming evidence that you are wrong, it's much more than an opinion.

Politicians and businessmen have their opinions which they can hold onto despite what others say or the evidence shown that contradicts their political stance. Yet their opinions affect, no exaggeration to say, BILLIONS of lives of human beings everywhere. Religion likewise.

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I do address the major ones. I consider this a minor semantic point that is not related to my original post. How would you define a condition characterized by hallucinations, delusions, denial, inability to learn, diminished logical faculties, inability to distinguish fantasy from reality, paranoia, emotional distress, fear, hatred, racism, sexism, abuse, neglect, violence, obsession, and death? Obviously depending on how deep the infection runs., ie how strong their belief is, they may suffer the effects of these sympsoms to varying degrees.

I call it a mental disorder. You can call it whatever you want.

Hmm okay.

EDIT: I forgot to ask this: Do you think the majority of the religious people are harmful by "passiveness" or..direct involvement in violent acts?
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 10:13:23 AM by C »
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Offline jetson

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #163 on: November 26, 2011, 10:21:31 AM »
Joeb...perhaps you can give some examples of groups that have been marginalized throughout history?  This is where I think your approach makes the most sense. 

Others are arguing that there is no harm in religious thought.  But is there harm?  I think there is harm, in that those people provide the solid footing needed by the more extreme delusion that there is actually a God.  And that we still need to cling to the idea as though our morals and our societies are doomed without it.

In this day and age, we don't need god beliefs running our lives, and that is how it is...and atheists are at the bottom of the pool when it comes to being considered worthy of even talking to, much less hold public office and guide policy.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #164 on: November 26, 2011, 10:40:00 AM »
There's no mileage in the mental illness angle, for the simple reason that mental illnesses are defined by the medical profession, not by the man in the street.

So if one accused a theist of being mentally ill, they would legitimately point out that a psychiatrist would not make that diagnosis. End of argument.

And there are no plans at the moment to include religious belief as a diagnosis. It may be added in the future, but until then, it's pointless calling theists mentally ill or insane.


Offline jetson

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #165 on: November 26, 2011, 10:55:47 AM »
Gnu,

Andrea Yates was mentally ill, correct?  Where is the line for professionals when it comes to God telling people to kill?  Is there a physical manifestation that can be treated with drugs?


Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #166 on: November 26, 2011, 10:57:39 AM »
If being "religious" is akin to a mental impairment, then it seems that a pretty large percentage of the population is impaired, and not just by virtue of accepting the religious dogma which they were indoctrinated into, but because there does seem to be some hard wiring in the minds of many if not most people toward an acceptance of or attribution to the spiritual.

If that is so, then even if atheism can be brought to the forefront as the rational choice, it seems that religion would always be there. Even if it went underground. And I'd imagine that even if all current religions could be rationalized into virtual disappearance, others would rise to take their place.

As long as charismatic people out there either have what seems to them a genuine spiritual experience or makes one up (ie L Ron Hubbard) and preaches or even mentions it to others, there will be people for whom it resonates, and cults will grow, some of which could become new world religions. I think it's just the cyclical nature of the beast.

Unfortunately, there is always the potential for any of these beliefs to spiral to the point that the more fanatical adherents will become overtly harmful, but as for religiosity itself, trying to eradicate it completely would really be an exercise in futility.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #167 on: November 26, 2011, 11:13:03 AM »
Traveler:
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A person might fantasize a lot, hold conversations in their head, or pretend to be someone else. But unless and until those activities become a problem for themselves and society, it's not considered mental illness.
This isn't correct, Traveler. But the subject is currently a matter of fierce debate amongst psychiatrists, because of paedophile supporters who want to remove the diagnosis of paedophilia from the DSM .

As things stand, paedophilia (defined as sexual attraction towards pre-pubescent children) is recognized as a mental illness, even though it is technically 100% harmless - it's simply a feeling within someone's head, and it doesn't hurt anyone*. It's only paedophile behaviour which causes harm.

Paedophile supporters are now using the same argument as you to request that paedophilia be removed from the list of mental illnesses in the next DSM.

I think that's a Bad Idea, for various reasons. What do you think, Traveler?


* Edit: That should be 'anyone else'. Paedophilia certainly hurts the paedophiles themselves e.g. it condemns them to a life of sexual abstinence - or a life in jail. Who would want that choice?

And that's a good enough reason to keep the diagnosis as it is.

« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 11:37:32 AM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #168 on: November 26, 2011, 11:32:57 AM »
You misunderstand my intention. I believe that most theists can't be deprogrammed. Some that are on the fence may come over to our side when they realize how ridiculous their beliefs are, others will dig in their heels. My intention in mocking them is to marginalize them, thus reducing their impact on society.
It won't work to have atheists mocking theists in general.  Historically, people who have gone that route got labeled as troublemakers, ignored in general, and 'dealt' with if they get too rowdy.  No movement is successful if it just has Malcolm X's, it also needs Martin Luther Kings to serve as a counterpoint that the reasonable members of the majority can work with.  For example, the March on Washington of the civil rights movement had a large number of white people in it, which helped to prove that Dr. King was a moderate, stabilizing force rather than a radical troublemaker.  That is not to say that there was no need for radical troublemakers, because Dr. King probably wouldn't have been listened to otherwise, but even the reasonable moderates on the other side wouldn't have worked with someone like Malcolm X.

There are other things that need to be considered, but that is by far the most important.

Offline Traveler

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #169 on: November 26, 2011, 11:44:19 AM »
Traveler:
Quote
A person might fantasize a lot, hold conversations in their head, or pretend to be someone else. But unless and until those activities become a problem for themselves and society, it's not considered mental illness.
This isn't correct, Traveler. But the subject is currently a matter of fierce debate amongst psychiatrists, because of paedophile supporters who want to remove the diagnosis of paedophilia from the DSM .

As things stand, paedophilia (defined as sexual attraction towards pre-pubescent children) is recognized as a mental illness, even though it is technically 100% harmless - it's simply a feeling within someone's head, and it doesn't hurt anyone*. It's only paedophile behaviour which causes harm.

Paedophile supporters are now using the same argument as you to request that paedohilia be removed from the list of mental illnesses in the next DSM.

I think that's a Bad Idea, for various reasons. What do you think, Traveler?


* Edit: That should be 'anyone else'. Paedophilia certainly hurts the paedophiles themselves e.g. it condemns them to a life of sexual abstinence - or a life in jail. Who would want that choice?

And that's a good enough reason to keep the diagnosis as it is.

Quote
The International Classification of Diseases (ICD) defines pedophilia as a "disorder of adult personality and behaviour" in which there is a sexual preference for children of prepubertal or early pubertal age.[5] According to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), pedophilia is a paraphilia in which a person has intense and recurrent sexual urges towards and fantasies about prepubescent children and on which feelings they have either acted or which cause distress or interpersonal difficulty.

Emphasis/bolding mine. It's not just their thoughts. It's their actions or distress that makes it a mental illness. As much as it disgusts me, a person who lusts after children but keeps their thoughts to themselves ... I can't see doing anything about it. Posts here and on other atheist forums about women's breasts and other objectification disgusts me. But the fact that young men think things like that aren't anything I can or should do about beyond expressing my opinion if I so choose.

I'm not sure how this discussion became about pedophilia. My liberal christian friends have no intention of harming anyone, child or adult. To all of a sudden start comparing religious persons to pedophiles is as ridiculous as them comparing us to nazis.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #170 on: November 26, 2011, 11:58:31 AM »
Joe:
Quote
Freeing them from their delusions is not oppression. Would it be oppression to force a mentally ill person to take the medicine that cures them?
Basically, yes, it would be.

Everyone over a certain age (around 11 in Britain) has the right to refuse medical treatment, even if they die as a result.

Taking away that right and forcing someone to take mind-altering medication is a huge decision, and would only be done in an extreme emergency.

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #171 on: November 26, 2011, 12:10:57 PM »
Traveler:
Quote
Emphasis/bolding mine. It's not just their thoughts. It's their actions or distress that makes it a mental illness.
"Actions OR distress". That's my point. Actions aren't necessary for a diagnosis.

And many paedophiles also claim not to be distressed by their condition. Therefore they claim that they don't meet the requirements for a diagnosis, and so they want the Manuals changed.

Quote
I'm not sure how this discussion became about pedophilia. My liberal christian friends have no intention of harming anyone, child or adult. To all of a sudden start comparing religious persons to pedophiles is as ridiculous as them comparing us to nazis.
I'm confronting your assertion that behaviour is required for a diagnosis of mental-illnesss, and giving an example of a condition which currently doesn't require behaviour to be present.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 12:47:11 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #172 on: November 26, 2011, 12:23:02 PM »
I didn't like the the title of the OP. Religious debate is not pointless. There have been people deconverted right here in this forum. Even if most of the time there aren't any deconversions, many of us enjoy frequenting this forum for entertainment and education.

However, I mostly agree with the content of the OP. The content doesn't exactly fit with the title's claim of debate being pointless. It just says more needs to be done. The use of the word "prevention" might be a little inaccurate, but at this moment I can't think of a better single word. It doesn't really matter, because the OP then lays down what he means by "prevention".
Posts like these, where the ultimate goals are perhaps a bit unrealistic, I read as "pep talks".

Replies #1-#4: Joe does well against Lucifer. Lucifer goes against our cause with pathetic replies like this:

Do you know how they vote on gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, birth control or other issues in which many religious people let their imaginary friend make up their minds for them?

How they vote (or would vote; AFAIK all those things are legal in my country):
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

Reply #7: Traveler travels to the wrong land with her weak point.

Replies #8 & #10: Jetson makes sense.

Reply #11: JayBWell gets a little crazy and illustrates his missing of the point.

Reply #13: Historicity, like Lucifer, argues as if religion has no effect on issues like gay marriage, abortion, stem cell research, and birth control. Warning: Keep your idiotic apologetics off this forum, or otherwise expect to get bitch-slapped.

Reply #15: Thankfully, Gnu Ordure pops in. Now we have Gnu and Jetson to logically defend the rookie OP from these crazy, point-missing "atheists".

Reply #16: Emergence sees Historicity's point. I sure the fuck don't.

Reply #17: Honest and smart post by Jetson. I'm not surprised.

Reply #18: Gnu Ordure tells the truth.

Reply #19: Azdgari joins the stupid side.

Reply #24: Emily joins the smart side.

Reply #30: Emily, proving that she is not religiously on the OP's side, provides some constructive criticism for the rookie.

Reply #35: Jaimehlers by far provides the most realistic disagreements to the OP so far.

Reply #57:
Moderator Bookmark.

I liked it. It shows that shit is heating up, and someone is noticing.

Reply #66: Gnu Ordure tears apart Anfauglir's ridiculous request.

Reply #72: Screwtape joins the smart side.

Reply #76: Riley2112 pops in. It's only a matter of time before the atheists start pouncing on him. It's a good thing because it brings JeffPT in to present some good points.

Reply #136: JayBWell32 leaves . . . Christian-style. He is a beaten man. Better luck next time!





Offline C

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #173 on: November 26, 2011, 12:39:34 PM »
Quote
Lucifer goes against our cause with pathetic replies like this:

Warning: Keep your idiotic apologetics off this forum, or otherwise expect to get bitch-slapped.

Now we have Gnu and Jetson to logically defend the rookie OP from these crazy, point-missing "atheists".

Reply #19: Azdgari joins the stupid side.

Um..  :blank:
The Second C