Author Topic: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention  (Read 6474 times)

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Offline riley2112

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #116 on: November 25, 2011, 03:37:43 PM »
 JeffPT;:laugh: I have no ideal why , but reading what you are writing is making me laugh so hard that tears are in my eyes. This is great. :laugh:
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
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Offline riley2112

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #117 on: November 25, 2011, 03:51:23 PM »
Quote
There is no "outside" the universe. Time and space are "confined" within the universe. Without both of those things, nothing can exist. And even IF stuff could exist; without time, no actions can be taken, meaning that you're, quite literally, the most worthless living being inside or outside the universe.
We believe that God created time and spaced which would put Him outside of the universe. And as for me being quite literally, the most worthless living being inside or outside the universe :'( Ad hominem arguments are a clear sign of intellectual dishonesty. However, often times, the dishonesty is more subtle. For example, someone might make a token effort at debunking an argument and then turn significant attention to the person making the argument, relying on stereotypes, guilt-by-association, and innocent-sounding gotcha questions.

Come on dude , you are one of the people in here I like. For real. You can make me look stupid by being better at making a point that is not a problem , matter of fact that is one of the reasons I like you , but calling  me the most worthless is beneath you and hurts my feelings. For what reason would you do that? :-\
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #118 on: November 25, 2011, 03:56:42 PM »
We believe that God created time and spaced which would put Him outside of the universe.

Non-sequitur. Assuming for a second here that your god is real; why couldn't he have created space and time around himself, rather than somewhere else?
Also, if you can't see how illogical that is (locations without space, as well as actions without time), then I really don't know what else to tell you.

And as for me being quite literally, the most worthless living being inside or outside the universe :'( Ad hominem arguments are a clear sign of intellectual dishonesty. However, often times, the dishonesty is more subtle. For example, someone might make a token effort at debunking an argument and then turn significant attention to the person making the argument, relying on stereotypes, guilt-by-association, and innocent-sounding gotcha questions.

Come on dude , you are one of the people in here I like. For real. You can make me look stupid by being better at making a point that is not a problem , matter of fact that is one of the reasons I like you , but calling  me the most worthless is beneath you and hurts my feelings. For what reason would you do that? :-\

I didn't mean "you" specifically; I meant any being that is "outside" of space and time. If I wanted to insult you, I wouldn't say something as simple as that.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #119 on: November 25, 2011, 04:03:38 PM »
JeffPT;:laugh: I have no ideal why , but reading what you are writing is making me laugh so hard that tears are in my eyes. This is great. :laugh:

I'm glad that you're entertained.  Do you have anything to say in reply to the content of what I posted?  Agree?  Disagree? Somewhere in the middle?
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline riley2112

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #120 on: November 25, 2011, 04:07:53 PM »
Quote
Non-sequitur. Assuming for a second here that your god is real; why couldn't he have created space and time around himself, rather than somewhere else?
Also, if you can't see how illogical that is (locations without space, as well as actions without time), then I really don't know what else to tell you.
That is kinda my point. I guess he could have but like  I was saying before. How can we even pretend to understand the reasons that He does what He does. People seem to use our reasoning to try and understand things that go beyond our reasoning. That is what I see as illogical.
Quote
I didn't mean "you" specifically; I meant any being that is "outside" of space and time. If I wanted to insult you, I wouldn't say something as simple as that.
I thought you where more interesting than that , you have restored my faith in your ability to publicly destroy me if you so should choose. ;)
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #121 on: November 25, 2011, 04:11:56 PM »
That is kinda my point. I guess he could have but like  I was saying before. How can we even pretend to understand the reasons that He does what He does. People seem to use our reasoning to try and understand things that go beyond our reasoning. That is what I see as illogical.

If you don't understand why it's impossible to exist outside of that which allows existence, then I have nothing else to say to you about this.

I thought you where more interesting than that , you have restored my faith in your ability to publicly destroy me if you so should choose. ;)

Among other things, you are fairly new here. I couldn't do it even if I wanted to. However, with enough time and knowledge, I probably could.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 05:09:47 PM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline riley2112

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #122 on: November 25, 2011, 04:28:42 PM »
Quote
Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God? 

I really don't see a problem with it. I think you have to give up reason and rely on faith. Granted, you may want to keep reason around to use here in the living world
Pure reason just does not seem to work here.

If it were true, it would.  The fact that it does not, is a good indication that it might not be true. 

Quote
Faith is believing in something you know ain't true.   -  Mark Twain. 
“Faith is the highest passion in a human being. Many in every
generation may not come that far, but none comes further.”
? Søren Kierkegaard
 
Quote
Your faith is weak at this point because you're finally hearing the other side of the argument, and its compelling as hell.  We're right riley.  There's no Christian God.  Sorry.  The Christians around you are wrong.  Your pastor is wrong.  Friends and family who believe in God are wrong, and now you are starting to understand why.  I'm not saying that with malice; I'm saying it in exactly the same way as if all those people believed in leprechauns.  They'd be wrong about that too.
I was not laughing at you, I just think you have a way of making your point that bring humor to it , I find it refreshing. And we may be wrong , We may be right. There is only one way to know for sure and then I can not come back and tell you one way or the other. All I know is the facts that you throw at me are compelling at the least. But I feel better inside , I am more understanding of my children, of the woman I am going to marry, I feel more content about life. I feel relieve from the horrible things that I have done in my life . Maybe it is just because I am getting older and wanting to settle down , as someone else has brought up , I really don't know, But at this point , Dude , I am happy. What else is there? Really.
Most people think they know what they know. The problem starts by not knowing what you don't know. You know?  (Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence)   (Albert Einstein)One fool can ask more questions in a minute than twelve wise men can answer in an hour.
--Nikolai Lenin

Online Azdgari

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #123 on: November 25, 2011, 05:32:59 PM »
Azd (my bold):
Quote
I had thought that characterizing vast swaths of people as harmful on the whole, due to a particular aspect of their personalities or belief systems, would be more controversial with more people.
I didn't mean to imply that the person was therefore harmful on the whole; that would require a highly complex calculation, to decide if a person's life was ultimately a Good Thing or a Bad Thing.

I meant that in that particular aspect, their behaviour was harmful.

And herein lies the entire source of our misunderstanding.  When I read "those people are harmful to society", I take that to mean exactly what it says - that those people are, in themselves, on the whole, harmful to society.  Because if they were harmful in some limited context yet still beneficial to society on the whole, then it would be very misleading to say that they are harmful to society.  Because "their effect on society" includes absolutely every factor of their interactions with it.

If you are talking about their religious behaviour, then I am inclined to agree with you.  But that is not a reasonable interpretation of the actual wording that Joe had used.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #124 on: November 25, 2011, 05:39:29 PM »
Quote
Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God? 

I really don't see a problem with it. I think you have to give up reason and rely on faith. Granted, you may want to keep reason around to use here in the living world

The minute you stop using your normal truth detecting methods and rely on your gut, you are no longer looking for the truth.  You're just looking to make yourself feel better. 


Quote
Faith is believing in something you know ain't true.   -  Mark Twain. 
“Faith is the highest passion in a human being. Many in every
generation may not come that far, but none comes further.”
? Søren Kierkegaard

Since when does being passionate about something have anything to do with it being true?  And do you really think having a high amount of passion about religion (something you already admit you turn off your normal truth detection methods for) is a good thing?  That's scary as hell if you ask me.  That's what drives planes into buildings. 

A lot of people preach that having faith is a good thing.  Ask yourself though... is it? Stop and think about it.  Is it good and right to believe in something for which there is no evidence?  To believe in something just because other people tell you to?  No, it's not. 

All I know is the facts that you throw at me are compelling at the least. But I feel better inside , I am more understanding of my children, of the woman I am going to marry, I feel more content about life. I feel relieve from the horrible things that I have done in my life . Maybe it is just because I am getting older and wanting to settle down , as someone else has brought up , I really don't know, But at this point , Dude , I am happy. What else is there? Really.

If you want to believe in something that makes you feel better, then don't go with the Christian God.  Make something up on your own, and then don't try to pass it off as true to everyone else.  You won't hear a word from us if you do that. 

Happiness is great, but Christianity can be very dangerous riley.  I could link you pages and pages of awful things people do in the name of God.  Your insistence that you are happy believing in God is akin to asking us to just respect what you believe, but what you may not understand is that by asking us to accept your belief in the Christian God, you provide a form of protection for those who do awful things in Gods name (because we have to respect their faith too).  People of faith generally don't speak out against other people of faith; even if they say and do the most horrible things. So when we scream out against Catholics in Africa, or abortion clinic bombings, WE look like the bad guys.  Somewhere that needs to stop.  And if that somewhere begins with criticizing ALL people of faith, then so be it. 

Here is the thing... I really don't think you believe in the Christian God, riley.   What you believe in is an idealized version of the fictional characters of Jesus and God that has been fed to you by people who want you to think that's what God is really like.  The bible tells paints a very different picture of who God is, and that God is not the version that makes you feel better about life.  If you really believed in THAT God, you would not feel good about it.  It is the idealized, contrived version that makes you feel better.  The God that can do no wrong, and that wouldn't harm a fly... That's the God you love to believe in.  But that's a fictional God.  It's made up.  And it's certainly not the God of the bible. 

So make up something else.  Make up your knight in shining armor that comes to the rescue and develop your own theology for him and all that.  Just don't call him the God of the bible. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline albeto

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #125 on: November 25, 2011, 07:45:47 PM »
I was not laughing at you, I just think you have a way of making your point that bring humor to it , I find it refreshing. And we may be wrong , We may be right. There is only one way to know for sure and then I can not come back and tell you one way or the other.

That's the only way if you refuse to use the ways available to you right here, right now.  You're giving yourself permission to simply turn off your logic and reason and appeal to pleasant emotions to rationalize a belief in something you know can't be believed in based on the merits of the arguments.

All I know is the facts that you throw at me are compelling at the least.

That's because they're reasonable and they appeal to your intelligence.

But I feel better inside , I am more understanding of my children, of the woman I am going to marry, I feel more content about life. I feel relieve from the horrible things that I have done in my life . Maybe it is just because I am getting older and wanting to settle down , as someone else has brought up , I really don't know, But at this point , Dude , I am happy.

Christians make the mistake all the time of assuming their experiences are somehow evidence for the arguments of the faith.  That sense of peace and serenity, tranquil satisfaction and even joy in the midst of otherwise joyless events can't and won't last.  The brain doesn't work that way.  People try to recapture those feelings that naturally wane and often the natural response is to delve deeper into the faith - to adopt fundamentalist theology and apply those conditions to your life.   Then you look around and wonder if the reason other people's lives are missing this peace and serenity and joy has to do with a lack of worshiping God the "right" way.  It'll mess with your head because you'll be constantly looking for that same emotional pleasure you have now and will always recall fondly.

As an experiment, see what happens if you tell your fiance that you really don't have faith after all.  That you'll go with her to church and stuff if she wants, but you can't believe and you don't think a god of love would really throw you in the pits of hell for eternity for a lack of belief.  If she truly accepts this about you she'll likely feel great worry over the state of your eternal soul.  If you tell her that's sweet and considerate but don't worry, your "soul" will be just fine, what will she do?  Will she try to coerce you somehow to find it in you to have faith?  Will she provide all kinds of worrisome scenarios?  Will she see you as the spiritually walking dead?  How important is it to her to maintain this emotional security? 

What else is there? Really.

Reality.  Living with your eyes wide open.  Seeing compassion for what it is and not being stopped by the judgement based on ancient superstitions.  Knowing how to live a superior moral existence, basing one's value on their existence and not on the supposed state of their soul.  Recognizing and rejecting judgmentalism, prejudice and fear tactics.  Embracing reason and intelligence rather than abdicating them in some loyalty to faith in hopes a god you know can't really exist, just might. 

Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #126 on: November 25, 2011, 07:54:56 PM »
Azd (my bold):
Quote
And herein lies the entire source of our misunderstanding. When I read "those people are harmful to society", I take that to mean exactly what it says - that those people are, in themselves, on the whole, harmful to society.
But it doesn't exactly say that, does it? It doesn't exactly say in themselves, on the whole; you added those bits.

Consider the proposition, Shoplifting is harmful to society. I assume you agree?

Re-phrase the proposition in personal terms: A shoplifter is harmful to society. Agreed?

But there's no justification to extrapolate from there that a shop-lifter is harmful to society as a whole.

Quote
If you are talking about their religious behaviour, then I am inclined to agree with you.
OK.

Quote
But that is not a reasonable interpretation of the actual wording that Joe had used.
Interpretations are kind of subjective by definition, aren't they? Obviously one considers one's own interpretation to be reasonable.

But in this case, we could obviate the need for interpretation by asking Joe exactly what he meant.

Why don't we do that?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 07:56:57 PM by Gnu Ordure »

Online Azdgari

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #127 on: November 25, 2011, 08:27:40 PM »
Quote
Re-phrase the proposition in personal terms: A shoplifter is harmful to society. Agreed?

No.  That is an utterly unreasonable leap that assumes a great deal about what the shoplifter is like outside of that one detail.

"A shoplifter" indicates a whole person.  There is no such thing as a shoplifter who is not also a person with other personal qualities.  By indicating "a shoplifter" you are including all of those other qualities, since they are inseparable from who the shoplifter is when he or she is identified as a person.

As for asking Joe, he doesn't seem to be all that co-operative about discussing his ideas.  All you and I have to go off of are his words.
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Offline Gnu Ordure

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #128 on: November 25, 2011, 09:21:12 PM »
Quote
No.  That is an utterly unreasonable leap that assumes a great deal about what the shoplifter is like outside of that one detail.
No it doesn't. I'm not assuming anything.

I'm simply moving from:

behaviour x (shop-lifting) causes harm

to

someone behaving in x fashion (a shop-lifter) causes harm.

Which accords with reality, as behaviours don't exist on their own.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #129 on: November 25, 2011, 09:34:25 PM »
Which accords with reality, as behaviours don't exist on their own.

Pardon my interruption guys. Religions also do not exist on their own. So when Joe opined for cleansing the world of religion what do you suppose he MUST have REALLY meant?
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #130 on: November 25, 2011, 10:03:45 PM »
Which accords with reality, as behaviours don't exist on their own.

Pardon my interruption guys. Religions also do not exist on their own. So when Joe opined for cleansing the world of religion what do you suppose he MUST have REALLY meant?

SPAJ again Jay. You really must stop injecting your personal opinions into my words. If you want to know what my words meant, perhaps you could begin by reading my words. Not only did I never suggest violence or murder, but I was very clear about how I would go about cleansing the world of religion.

Quote
To finally eradicate the plague of religion, the first step is for atheists to come out of the closet, so to speak. Don't be afraid what your friends, family, or co-workers may think. Remember, you are not alone.

Any violence suggested there?

Quote
The second step is to create an inhospitable environment for religion. Reject it anywhere you see it. Tell your children not to say "under God" in the pledge of allegiance, point out the ridiculousness of the bible, do not allow people to pray for you or bless you, mock, shame, and embarass their beliefs because frankly we can't let people believe their insanity is acceptable.

Mock, shame, and embarass. Not stab, strangle, and poison. I'm really resisting the urge to suggest you improve your reading skills. Oops.

Quote
Print out the more compelling arguements from atheist websites and hand them out wherever you see Christians handing out their propaganda. Make no mistake, they are out to recruit young children because they know only a child is gullible enough to swallow their load of crap. They give out Christian coloring books to little kids. We can't allow this to happen anymore.

If the next generation sees that it's ok to be an atheist despite what their parents have taught them, that society will accept them and that a large number of successful, popular adults are atheists, we can begin  cleansing the world of religion.

If the government said it was going to put an cleanse the world of smoking, drugs, alcohol and child abuse, we would cheer. If the government said it was going to kill smokers, drug addicts, alcoholics and child abusers, that would be an entirely different proposal.

Which did I suggest?
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #131 on: November 25, 2011, 10:35:30 PM »
If the government said it was going to put an cleanse the world of smoking, drugs, alcohol and child abuse, we would cheer. If the government said it was going to kill smokers, drug addicts, alcoholics and child abusers, that would be an entirely different proposal.

Which did I suggest?

The only real concern I have with this is the fact that you acknowledge that religion does not exist except for with the people who are religious. To cleanse the world of something has a very definite well established negative meaning when applied to people.

I don't think people would cheer AT ALL if the government outlawed smoking or alcohol. *see prohibition*

I don't think any government ad campaign to gain support for a ban of these things would be foolish enough to use the word "cleanse". That word is only acceptable in shampoo commercials and the like.

You simply MUST acknowledge the fact that you either used poor judgment in your choice of adjectives OR come right and admit that you understand what you said and that you meant it.

This is not the time for ambiguity.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #132 on: November 25, 2011, 10:36:25 PM »
Quote
Re-phrase the proposition in personal terms: A shoplifter is harmful to society. Agreed?

No.  That is an utterly unreasonable leap that assumes a great deal about what the shoplifter is like outside of that one detail.

"A shoplifter" indicates a whole person.  There is no such thing as a shoplifter who is not also a person with other personal qualities.  By indicating "a shoplifter" you are including all of those other qualities, since they are inseparable from who the shoplifter is when he or she is identified as a person.

As for asking Joe, he doesn't seem to be all that co-operative about discussing his ideas.  All you and I have to go off of are his words.

Again, a semantic arguement, which is why I've ignored most of your points. A shoplifter is a term to define a person based on their actions. If they stopped shoplifting, they would no longer by defined as shoplifters.

Shoplifting is harmful therefore shoplifters are harmful.
Smoking is harmful therefore smokers are harmful.

This is not a blanket statement to say every aspect of their existance is harmful, this is a qualified statement to say one clearly defined aspect of their existance is harmful.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #133 on: November 25, 2011, 10:45:15 PM »
Quote
The only real concern I have with this is the fact that you acknowledge that religion does not exist except for with the people who are religious. To cleanse the world of something has a very definite well established negative meaning when applied to people.

I never applied it to people.

If I said I wanted to rid the world of child abuse, that would not the be same as saying I wanted to murder all child abusers. It would mean I wanted to rid the world of that behavior.

SPAJ.

Quote
I don't think people would cheer AT ALL if the government outlawed smoking or alcohol. *see prohibition*

I said if the government were to suggest banning alcohol abuse, not alcohol entirely. Notice, no comma to seperate it.

Quote
I don't think any government ad campaign to gain support for a ban of these things would be foolish enough to use the word "cleanse". That word is only acceptable in shampoo commercials and the like.

Semantics. Pick a synonym.

Quote
You simply MUST acknowledge the fact that you either used poor judgment in your choice of adjectives OR come right and admit that you understand what you said and that you meant it.

This is not the time for ambiguity.

1. cleanse is a verb, not an adjective.
2. SPAJ
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 10:48:06 PM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #134 on: November 25, 2011, 10:53:21 PM »
I never applied it to people.

Not directly. But you did say

Religion does not exist beyond the people who believe in it.

Knowing that you hold that particular point of view, how does calling for the cleansing of religion not apply to people?

Quote
1. cleanse is a verb, not an adjective.
2. SPAJ

Stop avoiding the question.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #135 on: November 25, 2011, 11:04:00 PM »
Quote
Stop avoiding the question.


Stop self-projecting.

I never even remotely suggested violence. You're seeing what you want to see.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 11:05:32 PM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #136 on: November 25, 2011, 11:07:03 PM »
Quote
Stop avoiding the question.


Stop self-projecting.

I never even remotely suggested violence. You're seeing what you want to see.

Go fuck yourself you self righteous prick. I have no use for you or your hateful rhetoric. I'm done.
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #137 on: November 26, 2011, 12:12:08 AM »
joebbowers:  I could not help but notice that you only outlined the steps leading up to beginning the cleansing of religion from the world.  So what comes after atheists come out of the closet, start mocking theists en masse, and start handing out pamphlets (or whatever you wish to call them)?

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #138 on: November 26, 2011, 12:26:32 AM »
joebbowers:  I could not help but notice that you only outlined the steps leading up to beginning the cleansing of religion from the world.  So what comes after atheists come out of the closet, start mocking theists en masse, and start handing out pamphlets (or whatever you wish to call them)?

I was pretty clear in my original post.

Quote
If the next generation sees that it's ok to be an atheist despite what their parents have taught them, that society will accept them and that a large number of successful, popular adults are atheists, we can begin cleansing the world of religion.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

If we keep up the pressure, with each successive generation there will be fewer and fewer theists.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline albeto

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #139 on: November 26, 2011, 12:46:56 AM »
joebbowers:  I could not help but notice that you only outlined the steps leading up to beginning the cleansing of religion from the world.  So what comes after atheists come out of the closet, start mocking theists en masse, and start handing out pamphlets (or whatever you wish to call them)?

Fewer elementary schools hand out bibles for free.  Fewer communities suggest medical healing is possible through prayer alone.  Fewer politicians advertise the fact that they are completely and hopelessly ignorant about science and are proud to be so.   Fewer parents would send their kids to vacation bible school where they sing songs about how glorious god is, so long as he doesn't fry you in the pits of hell for eternity as you deserve.  Fewer homosexuals are targeted in hate crimes.  Fewer children get raped, and priests who deserve it go to jail because their protected status is an abomination to the moral conscience of any community.  My god man, the list goes on and on.    With each successive generation, those who are proud to call themselves Christians are fewer and fewer until they are rightfully embarrassed to admit it in public and would no sooner think they are entitled to establish their religious dogmas on public policy than we see from pagans and wiccans today. 

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #140 on: November 26, 2011, 01:06:07 AM »
Joe is right about debating religion, it  is pointless.

There is evidence to the contrary.  Mocking religion is, imo, a fabulous tool. 

Alberto, mocking and debating are not the same thing. I am certainly in favor of mocking them, as it sheds light on the ridiculous nature of their beliefs, silences their apologists and makes their allies think twice about openly defending them. This is an essential step towards marginalizing them, ie. moving religion from the mainstream to the fringe.

Wouldn't it be great if politicians had to think twice before mentioning God in their speeches or speaking at a theist rally, or more importantly, signing into law bills that are harmful to society just because they are afraid of losing votes?

I'm all for mocking, shaming, and embarassing them Alberto.

What I'm not for is debating them, in the sense that they are allowed to believe that their arguements hold any merit or are worthy of consideration. They are not.

But don't misunderstand me. We must try to educate them, help them see behind the curtain and realize that God is imaginary. This will often involve listening to their arguements and refuting them with solid logic. However this is not debate, as the theists can not win the arguement. If I lead a horse to water and it does not drink, the horse has not won.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #141 on: November 26, 2011, 01:09:02 AM »
deleted
« Last Edit: November 26, 2011, 01:10:56 AM by joebbowers »
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline albeto

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #142 on: November 26, 2011, 01:36:03 AM »
I'm all for mocking, shaming, and embarassing them Alberto.

albeto - no "r"   :-)

What I'm not for is debating them, in the sense that they are allowed to believe that their arguements hold any merit or are worthy of consideration. They are not.

But don't misunderstand me. We must try to educate them, help them see behind the curtain and realize that God is imaginary. This will often involve listening to their arguements and refuting them with solid logic. However this is not debate, as the theists can not win the arguement. If I lead a horse to water and it does not drink, the horse has not won.

You had me until this last part.  Help me see what I'm missing. I understand you to say that holding a debate as if their argument has any merit is unacceptable.  How do you avoid this if you are in the position of listening to their arguments and refuting them with logic?  They will naturally think their arguments are logical, having been told these arguments by people who look and sound oh-so-clever-and-yet-undeniably-godly. 

Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #143 on: November 26, 2011, 03:31:59 AM »
I'm really not interested in debating semantics and minor points that have nothing to do with my original message. Instead I'll restate it simply and clearly.

While you're at it, you might want to read the rules and replies to your original message.

<snip>

2. In order to stop religion, belief in god must no longer be a socially acceptable mental disorder.

Evidence that all religion is a mental disorder?
What is your reasoning to believe that this will succeed in "stopping" religion?
What do you mean by "stop religion"?

Still waiting for your reply to this.
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Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #144 on: November 26, 2011, 03:35:14 AM »
Alberto, mocking and debating are not the same thing. I am certainly in favor of mocking them, as it sheds light on the ridiculous nature of their beliefs, silences their apologists and makes their allies think twice about openly defending them. This is an essential step towards marginalizing them, ie. moving religion from the mainstream to the fringe.

<snip>

I'm all for mocking, shaming, and embarassing them Alberto.

<snip>

Considering that you believe religion is a mental illness, are you also in favor of mocking the mentally impaired?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.