Author Topic: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention  (Read 6356 times)

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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #29 on: November 24, 2011, 10:32:54 PM »
Notice how Jaybwell adds bold text to certain parts of my original post, cherry picking and adding emphasis where none existed. Changing the tone of the message to suit his needs.

I think he is guilty of SPAJ, self-projection as Joe.
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Online Emily

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2011, 10:40:01 PM »
I think he is guilty of SPAJ, self-projection as Joe.

Um, this kind of sounds like you are thinking you're some all-mighty atheist savior trying to lead the atheist revolution against the tyrants. Just saying.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2011, 10:48:01 PM »
I haven't been here very long, but isn't putting words in people's mouths against the rules?

I was obviously making a joke based on SPAG, because Jaybwell was self-projecting his own thoughts into my writing to suit his interpretation of them.

And God isn't an all-mighty savior, he is an imaginary mythical figure.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2011, 10:50:06 PM by joebbowers »
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2011, 10:48:54 PM »
deleted accidental double post
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2011, 10:49:18 PM »
Unless they actually don't believe the Bible forbids it.  In which case they would violate your prejudice.

How does that make you feel?
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2011, 11:02:47 PM »
Unless they actually don't believe the Bible forbids it.  In which case they would violate your prejudice.

Yes, a tiny percentage of Christians are pro-choice, either because they don't believe the bible forbids it, or because even though they believe the bible forbids it they choose to disagree with it. Congratulations, you win the internets! You has the largest e-peen. Is that what you want to hear?

The Christians who don't tow the party line or simply show up to church out of habit are not the ones that worry me. My point is that the majority of religious people are harmful to society.

Quote
How does that make you feel?

Clearly you can't see the forest for the trees, and you've completely missed the point of my original post. I'm not interested in debating the minutia with you ad infinitem and derailing my own topic. You're a childish time-waster.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2011, 11:24:02 PM »
I strongly disagree with a number of the sentiments presented by the OP.  First off, I cannot help but think that the attitude of trying to emotionally 'convert' people to atheism will backfire harshly.  It especially seems that it is like challenging theists on their home ground, using their weapons, and ignoring the fact that they're well-prepared to defend against those sorts of tactics.

Second, it ignores the fact that many theists are themselves decent and good people.  With irrational beliefs, certainly, but how many people are not irrational in some respects?  The important thing is not whether a belief is irrational, but what the result of holding that belief is.  If they become better people as a result of holding a belief[1], then it is hard to see how that could possibly be a bad thing, regardless of whether the belief itself is irrational.

Third, I don't think it's realistic to think that religion can be cleansed from the world.  Certain sects of Christians worked very hard to wipe out 'pagan' religious beliefs, such as the Greco-Roman pantheon, yet those beliefs still exist in the world despite more than a thousand years of suppression.  It is unlikely that radical atheists could succeed in that, especially since religion tends to thrive on persecution.  And how exactly would you go about "cleansing the world of religion", anyway?  It's easy to talk about something like that, much harder to put it into practice without becoming worse than the 'problem' being 'cleansed'.
 1. which does not mean the insipid idea that it would be 'okay' to do whatever without a source of objective morality

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2011, 11:27:43 PM »
Unless they actually don't believe the Bible forbids it.  In which case they would violate your prejudice.

Yes, a tiny percentage of Christians are pro-choice, either because they don't believe the bible forbids it, or because even though they believe the bible forbids it they choose to disagree with it. Congratulations, you win the internets! You has the largest e-peen. Is that what you want to hear?

The Christians who don't tow the party line or simply show up to church out of habit are not the ones that worry me. My point is that the majority of religious people are harmful to society.

Quote
How does that make you feel?

Clearly you can't see the forest for the trees, and you've completely missed the point of my original post. I'm not interested in debating the minutia with you ad infinitem and derailing my own topic. You're a childish time-waster.

A small point?  Yes, but the same problem with this point of yours is replicated among your other points.  Which makes it a more important point.  You have a prejudice that is negatively affecting your judgment.

You'll get no argument from me if you claim that religion in general is harmful to society.  But "the majority of religious people are harmful to society"?  I'm curious as to what studies you can reference regarding the effects that this majority has, and how large of a majority it might be.  You know, science stuff.  Reality stuff.  Is that your thing, or no...?


As an aside, your last response to me was unjustly childish and dismissive.  It is the same attitude you've given to user Lucifer as well, which suggests that it's not something specific to my posts.  Do you always bring that attitude to new fora?
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2011, 11:29:21 PM »
@joebbowers

Do you think it is reasonable to dehumanize a whole group of people because they don't have the same views as you?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2011, 11:35:30 PM »
By the way:

I haven't been here very long, but isn't putting words in people's mouths against the rules?

The rules are freely available for your viewing.  They are here.

After re-reading the rules, "putting words in someone's mouth" is not specifically forbidden.  Though, under some circumstances, it could fall under this heading:

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•Trolling other forum members, grudge matches, soap-opera dramas, and other actions that staff members deem to be designed to disrupt threads or provoke hostile emotional responses from other forum members will not be tolerated.

Or, depending on how it plays out, it could conveivably fall under this one (albeit unlikely):

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•Discussion threads are for discussion of the topic at hand, not simply advertising one's opinions. As such, forum members are expected to back up assertions they make, and not engage in stonewalling, shifting goalposts, changing the subject, or employing similar tactics to avoid addressing points raised against their arguments.

What I had done was not even put words in your mouth, however.  What I'd said is a direct logical consequence of what you'd said.  That sort of thing happens in a discussion.  Things you say will have logical consequences.  Sometimes (often) people make errors in figuring what logical consequences may follow from someone else's words, in which case the proper response would be to say so and to explain why, rather than to whine.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 12:04:48 AM by Azdgari »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2011, 11:55:52 PM »
Notice how Jaybwell adds bold text to certain parts of my original post, cherry picking and adding emphasis where none existed. Changing the tone of the message to suit his needs.

Perhaps you might want to think about why it was so easy for me to change the tone of your message.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #40 on: November 25, 2011, 12:20:33 AM »
^^ It makes a difference, how the change was made.  In this case, the change was made by exaggerating the tone of the message.  And unless I read you wrong, you exaggerated that tone in order to point it out.  Which is a legitimate use for exaggeration.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #41 on: November 25, 2011, 02:37:39 AM »
The Christians who don't tow the party line or simply show up to church out of habit are not the ones that worry me. My point is that the majority of religious people are harmful to society.

Statistics for this?
Assuming this to be true: So let's oppress the minorities because of the majority. Sounds very reasonable to me. [/sarcasm]
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #42 on: November 25, 2011, 02:42:31 AM »
Quote
So let's oppress the minorities because of the majority.

Freeing them from their delusions is not oppression. Would it be oppression to force a mentally ill person to take the medicine that cures them?
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #43 on: November 25, 2011, 02:46:20 AM »
I see you ignored my request for proof. So either you don't have any or you just like to leave your posts without any sort of evidence.

Freeing them from their delusions is not oppression. Would it be oppression to force a mentally ill person to take the medicine that cures them?

The difference here being that mentally ill people's brains' chemistry is all screwed up and we can fix that with medication.
Religious people believe in something we don't, but that cannot be corrected with medication, as their brain chemistry is functioning properly; the only way to "force" belief (or lack thereof) is by indoctrination (when they're young) or worse.

Also, it's interesting that you think I'm a troll because I disagree with you or that I'm trying to "derail" your thread. I am not. I am trying to get you to justify your PoV, while justifying my own.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 02:54:29 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2011, 02:49:53 AM »
If joebbowers really doesn't have any evidence for his belief that the majority of religious people are harmful to society, then it becomes akin to a religious belief on his part, no?
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #45 on: November 25, 2011, 02:51:11 AM »
If joebbowers really doesn't have any evidence for his belief that the majority of religious people are harmful to society, then it becomes akin to a religious belief on his part, no?

In the sense that there's no evidence for them, yes.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #46 on: November 25, 2011, 02:54:38 AM »
I see we've both been given -1's rather than have our points rebutted.  I do hope that Joe ceases this trollish behaviour and starts conducting himself as an adult.

Besides which, the points being smitten weren't even trollish in any way.  Mine was a comment on one of jaybwell's posts, and yours was a request for evidence.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 02:56:37 AM by Azdgari »
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #47 on: November 25, 2011, 02:56:04 AM »
I see we've both been given -1's rather than have our points rebutted.  I do hope that Joe ceases this trollish behaviour and starts conducting himself as an adult.

Reply #6 went without an answer at all, so I guess this is an improvement.
EDIT: Joe might not be an adult in the first place; his age is not in his profile.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #48 on: November 25, 2011, 02:57:49 AM »
^^ I prefer not to speculate.  The contents of his posts are what matter, not his age.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #49 on: November 25, 2011, 02:59:45 AM »
Sorry trolls, I'm not playing your game. The harm of religion is abundantly clear, I don't need to prove it. Anyone who reads the newspaper sees it everyday.
"Do you see a problem with insisting that the normal ways in which you determine fact from fiction is something you have to turn off in order to maintain the belief in God?" - JeffPT

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #50 on: November 25, 2011, 03:02:20 AM »
Of course religion is harmful to society.  That was not the claim you had actually made.

Do you wish to retract your claim that the majority of religious people are harmful to society?

Note:  This is not trolling.  This is holding you accountable for your own words.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #51 on: November 25, 2011, 03:17:12 AM »
Of course religion is harmful to society.  That was not the claim you had actually made.

Do you wish to retract your claim that the majority of religious people are harmful to society?

Note:  This is not trolling.  This is holding you accountable for your own words.

Quoted For Truth.

Joe, you have three options: Admit that you were wrong, and we (or at least I) will have our respect for you restored/increased, show evidence for your point, in which case we will admit we were wrong, or ignore our posts, and act (and therefore be treated) like a child.

EDIT: Religion as it is is harmful to society, but if people kept to themselves (as they should) and didn't let it influence their decisions (like some/most do), then it wouldn't be harmful.
That said, religion in itself is not capable of harm. People (specifically, stupid people) are the ones who take it too far.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 03:20:05 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #52 on: November 25, 2011, 03:27:46 AM »
God is imaginary. Religion does not exist beyond the people who believe in it. To say that religion is harmful but religious people are not is a weak apologetic stance, akin to saying guns are dangerous but the people who pull the triggers are not.

You could say that religion brought down the world trade center, and I could just as accurately say religious people brought down the world trade center. The two are not mutually exclusive.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #53 on: November 25, 2011, 03:38:36 AM »
God is imaginary. Religion does not exist beyond the people who believe in it. To say that religion is harmful but religious people are not is a weak apologetic stance, akin to saying guns are dangerous but the people who pull the triggers are not.

Religion is not a gun. It has the potential of being harmful, like a gun, but it's useless unless the people who believe in it pull the trigger.
Religion is not harmful by itself (id est: without anyone believing in it), just like people are not harmful by themselves unless they actually take action with what's available to them. This is why some religious people are harmful while others are not. The first type hide uses their beliefs to do things they know are harmful, while the second does not.

You could say that religion brought down the world trade center, and I could just as accurately say religious people brought down the world trade center. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Obviously not, but you can have the latter without the former in a variety of situations. What you cannot have is the opposite.

EDIT: I'll take it this means you're not going to prove your point. Thanks for letting me know.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline joebbowers

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #54 on: November 25, 2011, 03:50:46 AM »
Quote
I'll take it this means you're not going to prove your point. Thanks for letting me know.

If I stopped to crush every ant on my way to work, I'd never get there.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #55 on: November 25, 2011, 03:52:35 AM »
Quote
I'll take it this means you're not going to prove your point. Thanks for letting me know.

If I stopped to crush every ant on my way to work, I'd never get there.

If you don't stop to justify your position, you'll never get anywhere.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #56 on: November 25, 2011, 03:54:37 AM »
I prefer not to speculate.  The contents of his posts are what matter, not his age.

Almost forgot about this post.
That's true. I wasn't speculating per se; merely saying that it's also a possibility, but, judging from his posts, we have the atheist equivalent of a YEC here  - says that he doesn't need to justify anything; that the proof is right there and anyone who demands proof is a troll.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2011, 04:30:28 AM by Lucifer »
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Religious debate is pointless, the best cure is prevention
« Reply #57 on: November 25, 2011, 04:42:53 AM »
Moderator Bookmark.  
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?